(No subject)

[Guest guest]

I always felt uncomfortable at that.....couldn't quite place the

feeling; thanks for doing so - you put a name to the feeling for me.

M.

Message: 23

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 03:03:36 -0000

Subject: Re: (no subject)

what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself

as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an

alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me

start questioning more and more.

[Guest guest]

<<<<<<<<

dmarcoot@...>

Subject: Re: (no subject)

geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb

meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing

technique becuase it so seemingly innocent. >>>>>>>>>>

The more time passes, the more things seem to 'appear' that I had not

realised before.....there was so much that was scary because of the

seemingly innocent ways it was presented.....words and phrases and

repetition.....often by people who I think didn't realise or know they

were doing it......

hell, I did it myself! Telling people things, repeating the stock

phrases and words and so on........out of fear that if I didn't say

'xyz' to the new person then they might not stick around, they might get

drunk, and of course that would then be my fault..........

(but I've just remembered a slogan that covered that one, so as to make

the member feel ok....... " If they are 'ready', you can't say the *wrong*

thing; if they are NOT ready, you can't say the *right* thing " ....thus

absolving the member from the need to feel guilty (but I still did)

sorry this is a bit of a ramble.......a lot of mixed up stuff surfacing,

and I am just trying to let it go and make some sense......guess it's ok

to do that here.

M.

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever done a study comparing AA to some of the more well known

Cults. I wonder where AA would stand in the comparison?

abbadun

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: (no subject)

>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:36:10 -0000

>

>thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or

>or dont know anything about it probably do have a good

>impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a " self

>help group " .

>

>but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its

>religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.

>

>most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the

>12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving

>healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to

>turn their will over too.

>

>

>

>Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or

>self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose

>not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are

>taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of

>the drink, not the person.

>

>if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic,

>people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

>helplessness.

>

>Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma

>alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.

>what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?

>he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god. he

>taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which there

>was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >> >

> > >> >P.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> > >>

> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

>so

> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I

>think

> > >> from

> > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can

>see where

> > >>

> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > >>

> > >> >so I thought I would

> > >> > check out

> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

>very least

> > >> I

> > >> > would be

> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

>before I

> > >>

> > >> > knew it

> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

>much. I was

> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally

>saw

> > >> AA

> > >> > for

> > >> >> what it was.

> > >>

> > >> > I

> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

>thanked her

> > >>

> > >> > for

> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was

>now

> > >> > actively

> > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

>received

> > >> my

> > >> > email!

> > >>

> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

>seems

> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

>we've seen

> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on

>this

> > >> list,

> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

>themselves by reading

> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even

>be a lurker

> > >> here...

> > >>

> > >> >> kisses

> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> ----------

> > >> http://listen.to/benbradley

> > >>

> > >>

[Guest guest]

I was reading " Rational Recovery " and it mentioned the suicide issue. He

said he noticed that while he was in AA it seemed like there were always one

or two suicides a year in his home group. And how in general AA sets you up

to fail by telling you that you are powerless over alcohol (and for that

matter, powerless ove anything and everything). You are given a built-in

excuse to fail, especially at sobriety. Like the saying " relapse is part of

recovery " . I think they like it when people relapse and then come groveling

back, more willing to " learn " . I noticed when I was in AA that everyone

seemed to love the chronic relapsers.

Re: Re: (no subject)

I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if

you

have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting

powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

Drew

[Guest guest]

Tomboy wrote:

"Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for what it was."

Tom Boy -

Why did you immediately accept the anti-AA stuff you read as being the truth? Was it your recognition of the patterns of thought intially presented when we walk through AAl's door and ultimately instilled over time? That's the only logical conclusion I can come to for my own realization of the truth about AA. Those I have spoken with don't understand how I can seemingly overnight (actually, that's the truth) change my views on AA from being life's bread to what could be a dangerous mind-bending cult. Janice

wrote: I always forget that there are new people coming around here all the time. So here is the ol' story one more time ((deep breath))I was on a women's mailing list (a *lesbian* one, thought I would add that detail so that people who have heard this story before can pick up a new tidbit of information) when someone decided to pose a question. A friend of hers was having a problem with someone's drinking and she didn't know how she could help the situation and did we have any information that she could pass onto her friend . Well, super duper AA gal Del decided to pipe right on in and I said that she should get her butt to Alanon as fast as possible , do not pass go, do not collect 200.00Well, another woman came on to respond to that suggestion and went ballistic at my suggestion. She started a heavy duty slagging, beating of AA and told the women *NO NO NO* to the Alanon idea.The anti-AA woman and I started to have some words which turned into a flame war and then we stomped off to our own corners swearing that we would never speak to each other again.Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for what it was.I then continued to read and I joined this list and I gradually started to be able to think again.So, when people do start slagging AA, it does have an effect on people.Oh, after I left AA and joined this list and was finally waking up, I emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her for getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now actively deprogramming myself.She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my email!kissesTom IMnotA BoyAt 08:15 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent you over "the edge". I read the account of the last meeting you went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

[Guest guest]

That is a big problem. Most people have never heard of anything but AA when

it comes to solutions for drinking issues. That and maybe for-profit rehabs,

which basically just take your money and give you AA.

Now I know of a couple other options, like Smart and Rational Recovery, but

I've only discovered them now after finally rejecting AA and actively

seeking out alternatives. If I had known of alternatives 4 years ago, I

might never have been involved with AA at all. It seemed at the time to be

the only option and a last resort.

Re: (no subject)

i ahd no idea that it wasn't my problem but his, i was sober and

happy, and for only not be a student of bill wilsons i was deemed

a failure by him. I wasn't told i didn't have to accept that, that there

were other ways to sobriety other than AA's. maybe if i had, i

would have made a better choice for myself.

[Guest guest]

Yup. My first contact with AA was on line. An AA chat on IRC, in fact. I was

saying that I thought I needed to quit drinking, but was also wondering what

life would be like without. I was expressing some of my concerns and doubts

that I could enjoy a fulfilling life sober. One of the people told me if I

wasn't ready that I needed to continue to drink until I was really ready to

quit, instead of trying to reassure me that my life could be better. I

thought that to be quite cruel.

Re: (no subject)

i almost forgot, shame on me, if you are that hopeless person

and you say you think you may not need AA way, they will literally

suggest you go back out drinking and " experiment with your

sobriety " until your ready for AA. in which case they will be expect

you to crawl back " on your knees " like they say they did.

[Guest guest]

Tomboy - At a certain meeting I went to every day (where I got "sober"), every person counting their way to 90 days (Hazelden started that, not AA) would be asked to sit up in front of the room (in the "hot seat") and share whatever may be on the person's mind. I did that stint more than once, and as I remember, it was quite humiliating each time I had to confess that I drank. I felt like such a loser at not being able to "get it", and that feeling was compounded every time I sat in that freakin' seat. Even after being abstinent for a few years, I couldn't bring myself to share at that meeting, unless I was verbally forced to by my sponsor (who hasn't spoken to me in the last week because I yelled at her a week ago Monday - Maybe she thinks she is punsihing me, but I stopped worrying about it a week ago Tuesday when she wouldn't return my calls.). As a matter of fact, I don't understand how anyone can feel better after a qualification in front of a group of mostly strangers (strange people is more like it) who in reality don't give a crap - Janice

Tomboy wrote: Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak and the individual fails to say "Hi I am __________ and I am an alcoholic" and then until the individual does identify themselves by name and label,people in the room will continue to yell "who are you?" "who are you" "who are you" "whats your name" "are you an alcoholic" "why are you here?" and this humiliation will continue until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in the room will howl with laughter and do the typical "Hi ________" about as loud and as enthusiastic as they can.I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.kissesTom boyAt 12:47 AM 18/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

At 04:45 AM 12/18/01 -0000, watts_pete wrote: I seem to recall hearing that ("My name's not important and I'm an alcoholic") in an AA meeting, and of course, everyone responds with"Hi, not important.">>P.>>>> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself >> as "hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john" because being an >> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.>> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde >me start questioning more and more. I've also heard that sort of introduction a few times. I've heard"I'm Joe and I'm a garden variety alcoholic", to emphasise that hewas "nothing special." I think somewhere in my gut I saw that "twistedself image" that you write about, but I attributed it to the onesspeaking as much as to AA itself. One thing that got me 'thinking', or continuing to think, about howanti-intellectual AA is, was when someone said "The most dangerouswords an alcoholic can say are 'I've been thinking.'" I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but I didn'tmake any sense of them until I started reading about cults and studyingall the things they do.----------http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak

and the individual fails to say " Hi I am __________ and I am an

alcoholic " and then until the individual does identify themselves by

name and label,people in the room will continue to yell " who are

you? " " who are you " " who are you " " whats your name " " are you an

alcoholic " " why are you here? " and this humiliation will continue

until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in the

room will howl with laughter and do the typical " Hi ________ " about

as loud and as enthusiastic as they can.

I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.

kisses

Tom boy

Hi Tomboy

This method of publicly labelling one's self with a mythological

disease is taught in almost all of this nation's treatment centers,

by men and women who's only qualification for " treating " others is

that they screwed up their lives thru substance abuse, went thru

treatment themselves, discovered that they were bombastic idiots in

love with the sound of their own voices who were still too sick to

get a real job so they got a less-than-community-college quality

certificate in substance abuse counseling from some fly-by-nite

learning center run by profiteering quacks(Visa and MasterCard

accepted!). For reasons understood only by God and bureaucrats the

State placed great value on these certificates and started sending

other substance abusers or perceived substance abusers or other

generally undesireable people to them in droves, thus perpetuating

the process. That very few people ever got well as a result of this

seems not to have been an issue.

The " patients " are taught early on in " treatment " to state their name

and disease when introducing themselves, often followed by

some " feeling words " to describe their current emotional

state. " Let's get started - you know the drill " is how the counselors

that I've seen normally begin a group therapy session.

You're right, Tom Boy - it is cruel. What on God's grey earth is the

medical establishment thinking?

btw, to any counselors or former counselors on this list, I did not

intend for the above description to apply to you!

Regards,

Tom, the Boy

[Guest guest]

Oh absolutely, I have been suicidally depressed on more than one occasion

in the program. Every time I would get that depressed (ie. walking down

to the ocean to jump off the pier) people in AA would warn me that if I

took medication I wouldn't be sober.

I felt like such a failure in AA for the longest time. Being depressed

showed a sign of weekness that I wasn't following my program. Everytime I

got that low I would *try* and*try and*try* to do the steps better. Of

course that wouldn't help at all. So, I would go to more and more

meetings and that wouldn't help. It was horrible.

Since leaving AA I no longer feel any depression at all.

kisses

sunshine happy boy

At 01:59 AM 18/12/01 -0700, you wrote:

I am also concerned with

whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if you

have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into

accepting

powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological

state.

Drew

dmarcoot wrote:

> thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or

> or dont know anything about it probably do have a good

> impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a

" self

> help group " .

>

> but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its

> religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that

fact.

>

> most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the

> 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving

> healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to

> turn their will over too.

>

> Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink

or

> self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose

> not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they

are

> taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire

of

> the drink, not the person.

>

> if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its

ironic,

> people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

> helplessness.

>

> Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma

> alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.

> what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?

> he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god.

he

> taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which

there

> was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go

figure.

>

>

> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just

curious.

> > >> >

> > >> >P.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to

debate,

> > >>

> > >> ... that in itself made you

'dangerous' in AA - there's only

> so

> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the

quote (I

> think

> > >> from

> > >> the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating

society " . I can

> see where

> > >>

> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > >>

> > >> >so I thought I would

> > >> > check out

> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about ,

so at the

> very least

> > >> I

> > >> > would be

> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA

programs.

> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and

another and

> before I

> > >>

> > >> > knew it

> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from

shaking it so

> much. I was

> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was

reading. I finally

> saw

> > >> AA

> > >> > for

> > >> >> what it was.

> > >>

> > >> > I

> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn

enemies to. I

> thanked her

> > >>

> > >> > for

> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had

left AA and I was

> now

> > >> > actively

> > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees

when she

> received

> > >> my

> > >> > email!

> > >>

> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an

occurrence of yours

> seems

> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and

near-trolls

> we've seen

> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers

lurking on

> this

> > >> list,

> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

> themselves by reading

> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might

even

> be a lurker

> > >> here...

> > >>

> > >> >> kisses

> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> ----------

> > >>

http://listen.to/benbradley

> > >>

> > >>

[Guest guest]

Because it had been things that I had heard in AA meetings for years. The

abuses they talked about were all too familiar. I had seen these things

many times and unfortunately many times I had participated in these

activities to " help get people sober " . I was simpy stunned.Then

I just kept reading and it all made sense.

kisses

Tom " I ain't gonna go back to AA " Boy

At 06:38 AM 18/12/01 -0800, you wrote:

Why did you immediately accept the

anti-AA stuff you read as being the truth? Was it your recognition

of the patterns of thought intially presented when we walk through AAl's

door and ultimately instilled over time? That's the only logical

conclusion I can come to for my own realization of the truth about

AA. Those I have spoken with don't understand how I can seemingly

overnight (actually, that's the truth) change my views on AA from being

life's bread to what could be a dangerous mind-bending cult.

Janice

wrote:

I always forget that there are new

people coming around here all the time. So here is the ol' story one more

time ((deep breath))

I was on a women's mailing list (a *lesbian* one, thought I would add

that detail so that people who have heard this story before can pick up a

new tidbit of information) when someone decided to pose a question. A

friend of hers was having a problem with someone's drinking and she

didn't know how she could help the situation and did we have any

information that she could pass onto her friend . Well, super duper AA

gal Del decided to pipe right on in and I said that she should get her

butt to Alanon as fast as possible , do not pass go, do not collect

200.00

Well, another woman came on to respond to that suggestion and went

ballistic at my suggestion. She started a heavy duty slagging, beating of

AA and told the women *NO NO NO* to the Alanon idea.

The anti-AA woman and I started to have some words which turned into a

flame war and then we stomped off to our own corners swearing that we

would never speak to each other again.

Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out

some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would

be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it

,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for

what it was.

I then continued to read and I joined this list and I gradually started

to be able to think again.

So, when people do start slagging AA, it does have an effect on

people.

Oh, after I left AA and joined this list and was finally waking up, I

emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her for

getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now actively

deprogramming myself.

She wrote back that her j aw had hit her knees when she received my

email!

kisses

Tom IMnotA Boy

At 08:15 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

What

finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent

you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting you

went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

[Guest guest]

dmarcoot-

I just can't help thinking that the majority of those left behind in AA haven't the slightest idea that they are actually hurting others, let alone themselves. I am reluctant to burst the bubbles of vulnerable people, but the more I read about AA, the more I want to do something overt - like distributing anti-AA literature at the site of what is probably one of the most "famous" meeting groups in the world - The Mustard Seed in New York. I know a lot of people who go to those meetings - there are six a day - and I must say I am most tempted. Like TomBoy, I don't think I would have believed an anti-AA person just telling me what's wrong with it. I needed to read about it. I "shared" here yesterday about running into an old-timer - It was like I was talking to a brick wall - She heard nothing, and I can't blame her for not wanting to hear. 30 years of AA made her who she is today - The revered AA grandma. She is probably one of the most insecure people I have ever met.

Janice dmarcoot wrote: i left because i was attacked and called "toxic" for being a human being with human emotion rather than a "serene" and mindless AA parrot when both my parents were diagnosed with potentially fatal and ultimately fatal cancer. I left because all the wonderful self growth and awareness in sobriety which i experienced out side of AA was dismissed as being a false "pink cloud".I left because after giving me the welcome wagon of love and support it quickly turned into guilt trips and shaming for entertaining the notion i could live a normal "earth person" life.i left because i realized i had wasted 8 months of my life trying to believe in a god i didn't believe in to give me the answers, instead of doing what i knew i should have instinctively done (which of course is just WRONG when it comes to your own stinking thinking and all). if i was allowed to believe in my own will, i could have healed a friendship sooner. instead, it took me 5 years to recover form that AA trauma.I left because ultimately, my sponsor was more interested in his own ego gratification than my well being.it was only after i left and started the journey of trusting my own mind, as some of you are doing now, i was able to see just how much i was bull shitted and harmed in AA. that i wasn't insane or doomed to die or be alone without them as they teach. a big part of that was learning i wasn't alone in what i thought of AA by forums like this, in particular the defunct Ex-aa mailing list.

[Guest guest]

Drew -

Maybe you should go to a few 12-step meetings, if that's possible. Not just one. Several. You will be able to see and hear for yourself what is being "spoken" here. Janice

coleandr wrote: Hello, my name is Drew. I am not a member of any 12 step group, and Inever have been. I think one reason that people might not speak outabout twelve steps is that they are not aware of the kind ofmanipulation that can go on. If someone sees a twelve step member actingin an inapropriate way, they may assume that's just the way that personis.Another reason is even on the net, I am careful who I express my antiAA sentiments to. I don't want to lose friends on the net. I think thepublic at large thinks highly of AA, and might frown on someonecriticizing them.Sincerely, DrewTomboy wrote:> another thought just occurred to me...> unless of course you Pete was referring to me using the name "Del"?> if so, that is my name!>> kisses> Tom Boy>>> At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:>>>> No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million>> 12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online,>> whereas>> in the "recovering-from-12-steps" corner there are the posters on>> this>> list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two,>> such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only>> a>> few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in>> writing>> books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and>> those>> who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others>> easily.>> The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the>> name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's.>> Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she>> doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as>> having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too.>>>> > kisses>> > Tomboy>> >>> >>> >At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:>> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.>> >>> >P.>>>>>> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,>>>> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so>> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think>> from>> the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can see where>>>> just having that attitude helped lead you out.>>>> >so I thought I would>> > check out>> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least>> I>> > would be>> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.>> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I>>>> > knew it>> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was>> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw>> AA>> > for>> >> what it was.>>>> > I>> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her>>>> > for>> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now>> > actively>> >> deprogramming myself.>> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received>> my>> > email!>>>> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems>> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen>> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this>> list,>> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading>> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker>> here...>>>> >> kisses>> >> Tom IMnotA Boy>>>>>> ---------->> http://listen.to/benbradley>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

You are so right. Because I do not have a Sponsor I am thought of as not

being in the program, while other members come to the meeting high and are

accepted.

abbadun

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free >

>Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)

>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:34:49 -0700

>

>I was reading " Rational Recovery " and it mentioned the suicide issue. He

>said he noticed that while he was in AA it seemed like there were always

>one

>or two suicides a year in his home group. And how in general AA sets you up

>to fail by telling you that you are powerless over alcohol (and for that

>matter, powerless ove anything and everything). You are given a built-in

>excuse to fail, especially at sobriety. Like the saying " relapse is part of

>recovery " . I think they like it when people relapse and then come groveling

>back, more willing to " learn " . I noticed when I was in AA that everyone

>seemed to love the chronic relapsers.

>

> Re: Re: (no subject)

>

>

> I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if

>you

>have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting

>powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

>

> Drew

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

dmarcoot -

I would think that AAers would protest use of the words "self-help" with respect to the AA program - That is the direct opposite to the "we" concept which is instilled in the AAer from day one.

Janice

dmarcoot wrote: thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or or dont know anything about it probably do have a good impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a "self help group".but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to turn their will over too. Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of the drink, not the person.if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic, people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self helplessness. Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral. what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary? he taught they were "powerless", defective and needed god. he taught hey had a physical "INCURABLE" disease of which there was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.> >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.> >> >> >> >P.> >>> >>> >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,> >>> >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so> >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think> >> from> >> the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can see where> >>> >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.> >>> >> >so I thought I would> >> > check out> >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least> >> I> >> > would be> >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.> >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I> >>> >> > knew it> >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was> >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw> >> AA> >> > for> >> >> what it was.> >>> >> > I> >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her> >>> >> > for> >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now> >> > actively> >> >> deprogramming myself.> >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received> >> my> >> > email!> >>> >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems> >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen> >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this> >> list,> >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading> >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker> >> here...> >>> >> >> kisses> >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy> >>> >>> >> ----------> >> http://listen.to/benbradley> >>> >>

[Guest guest]

Drew -

"Failing" at what you believe is your last hope for whatever you wish to accomplish could be a factor!!! Janice

coleandr wrote: I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if youhave someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into acceptingpowerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state. Drewdmarcoot wrote:> thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or> or dont know anything about it probably do have a good> impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a "self> help group".>> but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its> religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.>> most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the> 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving> healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to> turn their will over too.>> Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or> self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose> not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are> taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of> the drink, not the person.>> if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic,> people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self> helplessness.>> Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma> alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.> what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?> he taught they were "powerless", defective and needed god. he> taught hey had a physical "INCURABLE" disease of which there> was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.>> > > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.> > >> >> > >> >P.> > >>> > >>> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,> > >>> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only> so> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I> think> > >> from> > >> the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can> see where> > >>> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.> > >>> > >> >so I thought I would> > >> > check out> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the> very least> > >> I> > >> > would be> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and> before I> > >>> > >> > knew it> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so> much. I was> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally> saw> > >> AA> > >> > for> > >> >> what it was.> > >>> > >> > I> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I> thanked her> > >>> > >> > for> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was> now> > >> > actively> > >> >> deprogramming myself.> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she> received> > >> my> > >> > email!> > >>> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours> seems> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls> we've seen> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on> this> > >> list,> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'> themselves by reading> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even> be a lurker> > >> here...> > >>> > >> >> kisses> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy> > >>> > >>> > >> ----------> > >> http://listen.to/benbradley> > >>> > >>

[Guest guest]

Well I know one group where if a person does not have a Sponsor, whole rows

of people will turn around and shout " Get a SPONSOR!! Get a SPONSOR!! Get a

SPONSOR!! " It must drive a newcommer nuts!!

abbadun

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: (no subject)

>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:44:59 -0000

>

>

> Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak

>and the individual fails to say " Hi I am __________ and I am an

>alcoholic " and then until the individual does identify themselves by

>name and label,people in the room will continue to yell " who are

>you? " " who are you " " who are you " " whats your name " " are you an

>alcoholic " " why are you here? " and this humiliation will continue

>until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in the

>room will howl with laughter and do the typical " Hi ________ " about

>as loud and as enthusiastic as they can.

> I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.

>

>

> kisses

> Tom boy

>

>Hi Tomboy

>

>This method of publicly labelling one's self with a mythological

>disease is taught in almost all of this nation's treatment centers,

>by men and women who's only qualification for " treating " others is

>that they screwed up their lives thru substance abuse, went thru

>treatment themselves, discovered that they were bombastic idiots in

>love with the sound of their own voices who were still too sick to

>get a real job so they got a less-than-community-college quality

>certificate in substance abuse counseling from some fly-by-nite

>learning center run by profiteering quacks(Visa and MasterCard

>accepted!). For reasons understood only by God and bureaucrats the

>State placed great value on these certificates and started sending

>other substance abusers or perceived substance abusers or other

>generally undesireable people to them in droves, thus perpetuating

>the process. That very few people ever got well as a result of this

>seems not to have been an issue.

>

>The " patients " are taught early on in " treatment " to state their name

>and disease when introducing themselves, often followed by

>some " feeling words " to describe their current emotional

>state. " Let's get started - you know the drill " is how the counselors

>that I've seen normally begin a group therapy session.

>

>You're right, Tom Boy - it is cruel. What on God's grey earth is the

>medical establishment thinking?

>

>btw, to any counselors or former counselors on this list, I did not

>intend for the above description to apply to you!

>

>Regards,

>

> Tom, the Boy

>

>

>

====================================================================

Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or

morphine or idealism.

--- Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), Swiss psychiatrist, founded psychology

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

At 01:59 AM 12/18/01 -0700, you wrote:

> I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if you

>have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting

>powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

>

> Drew

It's hard to get good statistics in AA itself, but there are hard

numbers for 12-step based treatment centers. Talbott runs one

for doctors, and it first got attention about ten (or more?) years ago

when a total of ten former patients had commited suicide, and the number

has increased since that story. A web search on Talbott and

suicide should bring up news stories.

AA members' response to a suicide is " it's part of the disease " and

they were " incapable of being honest with themselves. " The belief is

that AA helps people, and that anyone who kills himself " Did not take

the Steps " or " didn't get the program. " " But for the Grace of God go I. "

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

CB - Ditto. And this is the way I am spending my day off. Can't get enough of it. Oh oh...

Janice

CB wrote: <<<<<<<<<Message: 23 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:23:46 -0000 Subject: Re: (no subject)geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bbmeeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashingtechnique becuase it so seemingly innocent. >>>>>>>>>>The more time passes, the more things seem to 'appear' that I had notrealised before.....there was so much that was scary because of theseemingly innocent ways it was presented.....words and phrases andrepetition.....often by people who I think didn't realise or know theywere doing it......hell, I did it myself! Telling people things, repeating the stockphrases and words and so on........out of fear that if I didn't say'xyz' to the new person then they might not stick around, they might getdrunk, and of course that would then be my fault..........(but I've just remembered a slogan that covered that one, so as to makethe member feel ok......."If they are 'ready', you can't say the *wrong*thing; if they are NOT ready, you can't say the *right* thing"....thusabsolving the member from the need to feel guilty (but I still did)sorry this is a bit of a ramble.......a lot of mixed up stuff surfacing,and I am just trying to let it go and make some sense......guess it's okto do that here.M.

[Guest guest]

thesobrietist -

"For reasons understood only by God and bureaucrats the State placed great value on these certificates and started sending other substance abusers or perceived substance abusers or other generally undesireable people to them in droves, thus perpetuating the process."

I think the answer is simple -

In "treatment", I refused to listen to anyone who wasn't an alcoholic or addict because I believed, along with every other "alcohlic" I have run accross, that if you weren't an alcoholic or addict you could never know how I feel - The "establishment" listened and proceeded accordingly.

Janice

thesobrietist wrote: Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak and the individual fails to say "Hi I am __________ and I am an alcoholic" and then until the individual does identify themselves by name and label,people in the room will continue to yell "who are you?" "who are you" "who are you" "whats your name" "are you an alcoholic" "why are you here?" and this humiliation will continue until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in the room will howl with laughter and do the typical "Hi ________" about as loud and as enthusiastic as they can.I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.kissesTom boyHi TomboyThis method of publicly labelling one's self with a mythological disease is taught in almost all of this nation's treatment centers, by men and women who's only qualification for "treating" others is that they screwed up their lives thru substance abuse, went thru treatment themselves, discovered that they were bombastic idiots in love with the sound of their own voices who were still too sick to get a real job so they got a less-than-community-college quality certificate in substance abuse counseling from some fly-by-nite learning center run by profiteering quacks(Visa and MasterCard accepted!). For reasons understood only by God and bureaucrats the State placed great value on these certificates and started sending other substance abusers or perceived substance abusers or other generally undesireable people to them in droves, thus perpetuating the process. That very few people ever got well as a result of this seems not to have been an issue.The "patients" are taught early on in "treatment" to state their name and disease when introducing themselves, often followed by some "feeling words" to describe their current emotional state. "Let's get started - you know the drill" is how the counselors that I've seen normally begin a group therapy session.You're right, Tom Boy - it is cruel. What on God's grey earth is the medical establishment thinking?btw, to any counselors or former counselors on this list, I did not intend for the above description to apply to you! :)Regards, Tom, the Boy

[Guest guest]

Tomboy -

OK - I can relate to that. Women had asked for my number and would give me theirs. Instead of calling them if I thought I could help the newcomer, I stuck by the "they are supposed to call you" mindset, knowing full well that I probably could help that person if I made the effort myself. There would have been no harm in trying.

Janice

Tomboy wrote: Because it had been things that I had heard in AA meetings for years. The abuses they talked about were all too familiar. I had seen these things many times and unfortunately many times I had participated in these activities to "help get people sober". I was simpy stunned.Then I just kept reading and it all made sense.kissesTom "I ain't gonna go back to AA" BoyAt 06:38 AM 18/12/01 -0800, you wrote:

Why did you immediately accept the anti-AA stuff you read as being the truth? Was it your recognition of the patterns of thought intially presented when we walk through AAl's door and ultimately instilled over time? That's the only logical conclusion I can come to for my own realization of the truth about AA. Those I have spoken with don't understand how I can seemingly overnight (actually, that's the truth) change my views on AA from being life's bread to what could be a dangerous mind-bending cult. Janice wrote:

I always forget that there are new people coming around here all the time. So here is the ol' story one more time ((deep breath))I was on a women's mailing list (a *lesbian* one, thought I would add that detail so that people who have heard this story before can pick up a new tidbit of information) when someone decided to pose a question. A friend of hers was having a problem with someone's drinking and she didn't know how she could help the situation and did we have any information that she could pass onto her friend . Well, super duper AA gal Del decided to pipe right on in and I said that she should get her butt to Alanon as fast as possible , do not pass go, do not collect 200.00Well, another woman came on to respond to that suggestion and went ballistic at my suggestion. She started a heavy duty slagging, beating of AA and told the women *NO NO NO* to the Alanon idea.The anti-AA woman and I started to have some words which turned into a flame war and then we stomped off to our own corners swearing that we would never speak to each other again.Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for what it was.I then continued to read and I joined this list and I gradually started to be able to think again.So, when people do start slagging AA, it does have an effect on people.Oh, after I left AA and joined this list and was finally waking up, I emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her for getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now actively deprogramming myself.She wrote back that her j aw had hit her knees when she received my email!kissesTom IMnotA BoyAt 08:15 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent you over "the edge". I read the account of the last meeting you went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

[Guest guest]

I know this was not addressed to me, but it struck a chord, as my

experience is similar......an almost 'sudden/overnight' change of

thought: this has all been over the last few months for me, and I am

still figuring out much of it, but I think that one reason for the

'suddenness' was the it wasn't *really* sudden - I had had doubts,

reservations and so on almost from the start, but what happened with me

was that the longer I stayed (and I stayed for 16 years) the deeper I

pushed each of these 'doubts' further and further down, topping them off

with a nice thick coating of guilt at even daring to question; in July I

was forced into not going to meetings through a bout of bad health - was

virtually housebound; (and yes, at first I felt 'guilty' for not going

to any length to get to a meeting!)........and after a week or two I

realised that I was feeling not only ok about not going to meetings, but

better than when I was......and out came a lot of the repressed stuff

that had been sitting in my head for all those years; it seemed as

though the 'enforced absence' gave my mind the bit of distance it needed

to let me allow myself to think these things........I had heard a

mention of the deprogramming site, had a look, was terrified, but

fascinated........so much that I just *knew* felt right! and so it went

for me.....

so, although it seemed like an overnight thing, it was really like a dam

waiting to burst. Something like that.

M.

******************

Tomboy wrote:

" Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check

out some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I

would be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.I go to one

site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it ,it was 3

am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was thunderstruck. I

couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for what it was. "

Tom Boy -

Why did you immediately accept the anti-AA stuff you read as being the

truth? Was it your recognition of the patterns of thought intially

presented when we walk through AAl's door and ultimately instilled over

time? That's the only logical conclusion I can come to for my own

realization of the truth about AA. Those I have spoken with don't

understand how I can seemingly overnight (actually, that's the truth)

change my views on AA from being life's bread to what could be a

dangerous mind-bending cult.

Janice

tomboy@...> wrote: I always forget that there are new people

coming around here all the time. So here is the ol' story one more time

((deep breath))

*********************

[Guest guest]

Other " gems " that were encouraged in my former rehab were ppl

saying " I AM an eating disorder " . (I kid you not). Ppl even called

themselves " failed anorexics " . I almost challenged one girl for

calling herself that, asking her if she thought anorexia was

something you " succeeded " at. I only found out later that the rehab

*encouraged* ppl to call themselves " failed anorexics " . Great, make a

young girl she cant even succeed at starving herself to death! I'm

sure that does their self-esteem wonders!

P.

> > > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead

> > of

> > > saying

> > > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more

> > approachable

> > > and

> > > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his

> > part.

> > > >

> > > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique

> > when

> > > used in

> > > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

> > > everybody in

> > > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting,

thinks

> > > exactly

> > > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize

> > that

> > > probably

> > > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

> > > skeptical

> > > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at

> > all! In

> > > OA

> > > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads

> > a bit

> > > and

> > > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself.

> > Frequently I

> > > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

> > > >

> > > > P.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have to agree - I'm manic-depressive and actually got worse when in OA. Of

course, the XAers often tell you to expect to get worse before you get

better but that could prove fatal for people like me.

Robin s

> I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if

you

> have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting

> powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

>

> Drew

>

[Guest guest]

certainly steppers would, but i was speaking of the impression

of the general and not informed public has of looking at AA from

the outside.

> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >> >

> > >> >P.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> > >>

> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

> so

> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote

(I

> think

> > >> from

> > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I

can

> see where

> > >>

> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > >>

> > >> >so I thought I would

> > >> > check out

> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

> very least

> > >> I

> > >> > would be

> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

> before I

> > >>

> > >> > knew it

> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

> much. I was

> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I

finally

> saw

> > >> AA

> > >> > for

> > >> >> what it was.

> > >>

> > >> > I

> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

> thanked her

> > >>

> > >> > for

> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I

was

> now

> > >> > actively

> > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when

she

> received

> > >> my

> > >> > email!

> > >>

> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

> seems

> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

> we've seen

> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking

on

> this

> > >> list,

> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

> themselves by reading

> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might

even

> be a lurker

> > >> here...

> > >>

> > >> >> kisses

> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> ----------

> > >> http://listen.to/benbradley

> > >>

> > >>