(No subject)

[Guest guest]

geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb

meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing

technique becuase it so seemingly innocent.

i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want

to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious

technique to begin with.

but group reading of AA material is more about making sure

everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind

of 1984.

> > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of

saying

> > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more approachable

and

> > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part.

>

> This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when

used in

> meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

everybody in

> the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks

exactly

> the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that

probably

> well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

skeptical

> as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In

OA

> they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit

and

> hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I

> refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

Everything in AA appeared to be really innocent to me up until 4 months

ago. Never suspected that I was being duped, manipulated, and

brainwashed.

Gosh golly gee, what a surprise!

Thats why I love this list, I learn something new every day!

kisses

z. Boy

At 06:23 PM 17/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

geez pete, i didnt think of

how that language works in the bb

meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing

technique becuase it so seemingly innocent.

i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want

to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious

technique to begin with.

but group reading of AA material is more about making sure

everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind

of 1984.

> > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of

saying

> > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound

more approachable

and

> > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his

part.

>

> This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when

used in

> meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

everybody in

> the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks

exactly

> the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that

probably

> well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

skeptical

> as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all!

In

OA

> they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit

and

> hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I

> refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent you over "the edge". I read the account of the last meeting you went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

Re: Re: (no subject)

Everything in AA appeared to be really innocent to me up until 4 months ago. Never suspected that I was being duped, manipulated, and brainwashed.Gosh golly gee, what a surprise!Thats why I love this list, I learn something new every day!kisses z. BoyAt 06:23 PM 17/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing technique becuase it so seemingly innocent. i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious technique to begin with.but group reading of AA material is more about making sure everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind of 1984.> > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of saying > > "I" , he used "we", which made it sound more approachable and > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part.> > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when used in > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that everybody in > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks exactly > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that probably > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as skeptical > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In OA > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit and > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.> > P.

[Guest guest]

I always forget that there are new people coming around here all the

time. So here is the ol' story one more time ((deep breath))

I was on a women's mailing list (a *lesbian* one, thought I would add

that detail so that people who have heard this story before can pick up a

new tidbit of information) when someone decided to pose a question. A

friend of hers was having a problem with someone's drinking and she

didn't know how she could help the situation and did we have any

information that she could pass onto her friend . Well, super duper AA

gal Del decided to pipe right on in and I said that she should get her

butt to Alanon as fast as possible , do not pass go, do not collect

200.00

Well, another woman came on to respond to that suggestion and went

ballistic at my suggestion. She started a heavy duty slagging, beating of

AA and told the women *NO NO NO* to the Alanon idea.

The anti-AA woman and I started to have some words which turned into a

flame war and then we stomped off to our own corners swearing that we

would never speak to each other again.

Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out

some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would

be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it

,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for

what it was.

I then continued to read and I joined this list and I gradually started

to be able to think again.

So, when people do start slagging AA, it does have an effect on

people.

Oh, after I left AA and joined this list and was finally waking up, I

emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her for

getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now actively

deprogramming myself.

She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my

email!

kisses

Tom IMnotA Boy

At 08:15 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

What

finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent

you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting you

went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

[Guest guest]

Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

P.

> >What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a

while what

> >sent you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting

you went

> >to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was.

[Guest guest]

nope, not that I know of. I am confused, should I?

kisses

Tomboy

At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

Do we know this lady Tomboy?

Just curious.

P.

> >What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a

while what

> >sent you over " the edge " . I read the account of the

last meeting

you went

> >to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really

was.

[Guest guest]

what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself

as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an

alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me start

questioning more and more.

> > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead

of

> saying

> > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more

approachable

> and

> > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his

part.

> >

> > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique

when

> used in

> > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

> everybody in

> > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks

> exactly

> > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize

that

> probably

> > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

> skeptical

> > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at

all! In

> OA

> > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads

a bit

> and

> > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself.

Frequently I

> > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

> >

> > P.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 06:01 PM 12/17/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote:

> nope, not that I know of. I am confused, should I?

No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million

12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas

in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters on this

list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two,

such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only a

few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing

books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those

who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others

easily.

The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the

name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's.

Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she

doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as

having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too.

> kisses

> Tomboy

>

>

>At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

>

>P.

>> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so

much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from

the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where

just having that attitude helped lead you out.

>so I thought I would

> check out

>> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I

> would be

>> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

>> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I

> knew it

>> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

>> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA

> for

>> what it was.

> I

>> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her

> for

>> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now

> actively

>> deprogramming myself.

>> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my

> email!

That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems

unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen

here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list,

presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading

our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker

here...

>> kisses

>> Tom IMnotA Boy

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

She is very very out as a queer woman. From the conversations I have had

with her, she isn't active on any 12 step free recovery lists. At the

same time I would never consider divulging her name or giving any

information about her that would make her identifiable.

Now the question makes more sense. Yes, I do know this woman. I

quite frankly didn't understand the question.

kisses

Tom Boy

No, I had the same

thought as Pete. There are at least a million

12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online,

whereas

in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters

on this

list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two,

such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only

a

few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in

writing

books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and

those

who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others

easily.

The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize

the

name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's.

Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps

she

doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as

having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too.

> kisses

> Tomboy

>

>

>At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

>

>P.

>> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

so

much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think

from

the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can

see where

just having that attitude helped lead you out.

>so I thought I would

> check out

>> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least

I

> would be

>> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

>> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before

I

> knew it

>> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

>> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw

AA

> for

>> what it was.

> I

>> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked

her

> for

>> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now

> actively

>> deprogramming myself.

>> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received

my

> email!

That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

seems

unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen

here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this

list,

presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading

our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker

here...

>> kisses

>> Tom IMnotA Boy

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

another thought just occurred to me...

unless of course you Pete was referring to me using the name

" Del " ?

if so, that is my name!

kisses

Tom Boy

At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

No, I had the same thought

as Pete. There are at least a million

12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online,

whereas

in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters

on this

list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two,

such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only

a

few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in

writing

books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and

those

who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others

easily.

The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize

the

name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's.

Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps

she

doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as

having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too.

> kisses

> Tomboy

>

>

>At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

>

>P.

>> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

so

much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think

from

the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can

see where

just having that attitude helped lead you out.

>so I thought I would

> check out

>> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least

I

> would be

>> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

>> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before

I

> knew it

>> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

>> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw

AA

> for

>> what it was.

> I

>> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked

her

> for

>> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now

> actively

>> deprogramming myself.

>> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received

my

> email!

That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

seems

unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen

here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this

list,

presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading

our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker

here...

>> kisses

>> Tom IMnotA Boy

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

No, Ben had it right. I wondered how she knew all the URLs, and hence

maybe she had been on this list. Your story is really great, that

sometimes the message gets through. Thank God that DeLuca is

now posting on add_med, and its not just me and Fred Rotgers talking

sense there.

P.

> > >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >

> > >P.

> >

> >

> > >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> >

> > ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so

> >much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think

from

> >the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see

where

> >just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> >

> > >so I thought I would

> > > check out

> > >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very

least I

> > > would be

> > >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

before I

> > > knew it

> > >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I

was

> > >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally

saw AA

> > > for

> > >> what it was.

> >

> > > I

> > >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked

her

> > > for

> > >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was

now

> > > actively

> > >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

received my

> > > email!

> >

> > That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems

> >unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen

> >here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this

list,

> >presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading

> >our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker

> >here...

> >

> > >> kisses

> > >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> >

> >

> >----------

> >http://listen.to/benbradley

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How about " My name's not important, I'm a compulsive overeater. " ??? I

think this girl might have called herself a bulimic too.

P.

> > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead

> of

> > saying

> > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more

> approachable

> > and

> > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his

> part.

> > >

> > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique

> when

> > used in

> > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

> > everybody in

> > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks

> > exactly

> > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize

> that

> > probably

> > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

> > skeptical

> > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at

> all! In

> > OA

> > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads

> a bit

> > and

> > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself.

> Frequently I

> > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

> > >

> > > P.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I love the explanations of why ya'll left. Helps me see things a bit more

clearly. If ya'll want, keep 'em coming. Jump in at any time, guys.

I tripped over aadeprogramming while I was searching for online meetings. I

couldn't stand most of the people in the " live " meetings around my area

(especially when they were friendly), but felt that I would die without

meetings, so I was going to try online.

I read the site, told a couple of my ex NA friends about it, and promptly

went back to meetings for about 3 yr. Ok, I'm a little slow on the uptake

sometimes. The part on the site that said something like, " They tell you

they are rapists and thieves, and then ask you for a ride home... " stuck

with me. It ran through my mind every time I listened to someone share at a

meeting. It drove me nuts, but helped drive me out of the rooms.

I also had a friend who used to say, " My name is addict, and I'm a

______(insert name here) " . He meant it as a joke, kind of. It stuck in my

head, too. I would tell people (because of him) that I wanted to be a human

being first, and an addict/alcoholic second.

I think I prefer not being an addict/alcoholic at all.

Re: (no subject)

> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself

> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an

> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me

start questioning more and more.

>

>

>

> > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead

> of

> > saying

> > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more

> approachable

> > and

> > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his

> part.

> > >

> > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique

> when

> > used in

> > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that

> > everybody in

> > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks

> > exactly

> > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize

> that

> > probably

> > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as

> > skeptical

> > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at

> all! In

> > OA

> > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads

> a bit

> > and

> > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself.

> Frequently I

> > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.

> > >

> > > P.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Sure the message gets through sometimes. It just happened to hit me at

the right time and the right place. I was bored and thought that I might

as well check out what she was saying, if anything at least I could argue

intelligently!

My curiousity paid off. It was pure chance that I ended up leaving.

So never doubt your power and what you say.

Ya just never know who it might hit at the right time.

kisses

Tom Boy

At 04:43 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

No, Ben had it right. I wondered

how she knew all the URLs, and hence

maybe she had been on this list. Your story is really great, that

sometimes the message gets through. Thank God that DeLuca is

now posting on add_med, and its not just me and Fred Rotgers talking

sense there.

P.

> > >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >

> > >P.

> >

> >

> > >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> >

> > ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA

- there's only so

> >much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think

from

> >the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating

society " . I can see

where

> >just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> >

> > >so I thought I would

> > > check out

> > >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

very

least I

> > > would be

> > >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA

programs.

> > >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another

and

before I

> > > knew it

> > >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

much. I

was

> > >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I

finally

saw AA

> > > for

> > >> what it was.

> >

> > > I

> > >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

thanked

her

> > > for

> > >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and

I was

now

> > > actively

> > >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

received my

> > > email!

> >

> > That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an

occurrence of yours seems

> >unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've

seen

> >here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this

list,

> >presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by

reading

> >our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a

lurker

> >here...

> >

> > >> kisses

> > >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> >

> >

> >----------

>

>http://listen.to/benbradley

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Next time she tells you that " you can't relate to others " tell

her " thank you for sharing your experience "

kisses

Tom Boy

At 01:19 AM 17/12/01 -0700, you wrote:

Hello, my name is Drew. I have

never been a member of a 12 step group, but my mother was. I am 33

years

old. When my mother was in the group, she was constantly trying to

indoctrinate me in.(recruit me without

my awareness that I was being recruited) I guess this sounds pretty

strange, but one time she was talking

to me, and out of the blue, she snaps " You can't relate to

others! " After that, it was as if I just heard

her voice ringing in my head, saying " You can't relate to

others! " More to the point, I had more dificulty

relating to other, than ever before. I would feel angry, out of control.

I would get so angry, that I would

scare people away from me. I never had this problem before this

confrontation at 27 years of age. I was

wondering if this sounded like anyone elses experience here?

Thank you, Drew.

dmarcoot wrote:

> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced

himself

> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being

an

> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih

amde me start questioning more and more.

>

>

> > > > he also used a technique of

persuasion where instead

> of

> > saying

> > > > " I " , he used

" we " , which made it sound more

> approachable

> > and

> > > > less self centered. But this

is also a deception on his

> part.

> > >

> > > This is an incredibly effective

brainwashing technique

> when

> > used in

> > > meetings. When read out, it

gives the impression that

> > everybody in

> > > the entire room, and everybody in

every AA meeting, thinks

> > exactly

> > > the same way, and the poor sap

newcomer doesnt realize

> that

> > probably

> > > well over half the ppl in the room

are recent arrivals as

> > skeptical

> > > as he is, and a fair number dont

even want to be there at

> all! In

> > OA

> > > they pass the damn book around so

that everybody reads

> a bit

> > and

> > > hence gets drawn into saying

things for themself.

> Frequently I

> > > refuse to read things and just

pass the book on.

> > >

> > > P.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

At 04:45 AM 12/18/01 -0000, watts_pete wrote:

>How about " My name's not important, I'm a compulsive overeater. " ??? I

>think this girl might have called herself a bulimic too.

I seem to recall hearing that ( " My name's not important and I'm an

alcoholic " ) in an AA meeting, and of course, everyone responds with

" Hi, not important. "

>

>P.

>

>

>> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself

>> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an

>> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

>> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde

>me start questioning more and more.

I've also heard that sort of introduction a few times. I've heard

" I'm Joe and I'm a garden variety alcoholic " , to emphasise that he

was " nothing special. " I think somewhere in my gut I saw that " twisted

self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the ones

speaking as much as to AA itself.

One thing that got me 'thinking', or continuing to think, about how

anti-intellectual AA is, was when someone said " The most dangerous

words an alcoholic can say are 'I've been thinking.' "

I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but I didn't

make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and studying

all the things they do.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak and the

individual fails to say " Hi I am __________ and I am an

alcoholic " and then until the individual does identify themselves by

name and label,people in the room will continue to yell " who are

you? " " who are you " " who are you " " whats

your name " " are you an alcoholic " " why are you

here? " and this humiliation will continue until name and label are

clearly given.

At that point everyone in the room will howl with laughter and do the

typical " Hi ________ " about as loud and as enthusiastic as they

can.

I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.

kisses

Tom boy

At 12:47 AM 18/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

At 04:45 AM 12/18/01 -0000,

watts_pete wrote:

I seem to recall hearing that ( " My name's not important

and I'm an

alcoholic " ) in an AA meeting, and of course, everyone responds

with

" Hi, not important. "

>

>P.

>

>

>> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself

>> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because

being an

>> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name.

>> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold,

whcih amde

>me start questioning more and more.

I've also heard that sort of introduction a few times. I've

heard

" I'm Joe and I'm a garden variety alcoholic " , to emphasise that

he

was " nothing special. " I think somewhere in my gut I saw that

" twisted

self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the

ones

speaking as much as to AA itself.

One thing that got me 'thinking', or continuing to think,

about how

anti-intellectual AA is, was when someone said " The most

dangerous

words an alcoholic can say are 'I've been thinking.' "

I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but

I didn't

make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and

studying

all the things they do.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

i left because i was attacked and called " toxic " for being a

human being with human emotion rather than a " serene " and

mindless AA parrot when both my parents were diagnosed with

potentially fatal and ultimately fatal cancer.

I left because all the wonderful self growth and awareness in

sobriety which i experienced out side of AA was dismissed as

being a false " pink cloud " .

I left because after giving me the welcome wagon of love and

support it quickly turned into guilt trips and shaming for

entertaining the notion i could live a normal " earth person " life.

i left because i realized i had wasted 8 months of my life trying to

believe in a god i didn't believe in to give me the answers,

instead of doing what i knew i should have instinctively done

(which of course is just WRONG when it comes to your own

stinking thinking and all). if i was allowed to believe in my own

will, i could have healed a friendship sooner. instead, it took me

5 years to recover form that AA trauma.

I left because ultimately, my sponsor was more interested in his

own ego gratification than my well being.

it was only after i left and started the journey of trusting my own

mind, as some of you are doing now, i was able to see just how

much i was bull shitted and harmed in AA. that i wasn't insane

or doomed to die or be alone without them as they teach. a big

part of that was learning i wasn't alone in what i thought of AA by

forums like this, in particular the defunct Ex-aa mailing list.

[Guest guest]

Hello, my name is Drew. I am not a member of any 12 step group, and

I never have been. I think one reason that people might not speak out about

twelve steps is that they are not aware of the kind of manipulation

that can go on. If someone sees a twelve step member acting in an inapropriate

way, they may assume that's just the way that person is.Another reason

is even on the net, I am careful who I express my anti AA sentiments to.

I don't want to lose friends on the net. I think the public at large thinks

highly of AA, and might frown on someone criticizing them.

Sincerely, Drew

Tomboy wrote:

another thought just occurred to me...

unless of course you Pete was referring to me using the name "Del"?

if so, that is my name!

kisses

Tom Boy

At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

No, I had the same thought

as Pete. There are at least a million

12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas

in the "recovering-from-12-steps" corner there are the posters on this

list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two,

such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only

a

few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing

books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those

who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others

easily.

The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize

the

name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's.

Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps

she

doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as

having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too.

> kisses

> Tomboy

>

>

>At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

>

>P.

>> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's

only so

much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from

the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can see

where

just having that attitude helped lead you out.

>so I thought I would

> check out

>> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least

I

> would be

>> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

>> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before

I

> knew it

>> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was

>> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw

AA

> for

>> what it was.

> I

>> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her

> for

>> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now

> actively

>> deprogramming myself.

>> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received

my

> email!

That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

seems

unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen

here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list,

presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading

our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker

here...

>> kisses

>> Tom IMnotA Boy

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I saw that " twisted

> self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the ones

> speaking as much as to AA itself.

part of that sick thinking is just the saying " im an alcoholic " when

i haven drank in years. the labeling of one self for life by a former

habit, especially when it carries the stigma of the defect

character baggage AA attributes to the alcoholic, is masochistic

and part of the perpetual ego reduction AA needs to function as a

cult

> I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA,

but I didn't

> make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and

studying

> all the things they do.

same here, thats actualy how i met you, you responded to my

post on a ex cult newsgroup and pointed me towards the ex -aa

list when i was out of AA 3 months and looking for information to

support " my theory " at the time that AA was a cult. i had no idea

anyone else thought that until you responded.

[Guest guest]

thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or

or dont know anything about it probably do have a good

impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a " self

help group " .

but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its

religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.

most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the

12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving

healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to

turn their will over too.

Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or

self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose

not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are

taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of

the drink, not the person.

if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic,

people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

helplessness.

Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma

alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.

what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?

he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god. he

taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which there

was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.

> >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> >> >

> >> >P.

> >>

> >>

> >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> >>

> >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

so

> >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I

think

> >> from

> >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can

see where

> >>

> >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> >>

> >> >so I thought I would

> >> > check out

> >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

very least

> >> I

> >> > would be

> >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

before I

> >>

> >> > knew it

> >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

much. I was

> >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally

saw

> >> AA

> >> > for

> >> >> what it was.

> >>

> >> > I

> >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

thanked her

> >>

> >> > for

> >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was

now

> >> > actively

> >> >> deprogramming myself.

> >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

received

> >> my

> >> > email!

> >>

> >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

seems

> >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

we've seen

> >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on

this

> >> list,

> >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

themselves by reading

> >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even

be a lurker

> >> here...

> >>

> >> >> kisses

> >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> >>

> >>

> >> ----------

> >> http://listen.to/benbradley

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if you

have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting

powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

Drew

dmarcoot wrote:

> thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or

> or dont know anything about it probably do have a good

> impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a " self

> help group " .

>

> but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its

> religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.

>

> most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the

> 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving

> healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to

> turn their will over too.

>

> Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or

> self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose

> not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are

> taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of

> the drink, not the person.

>

> if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic,

> people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

> helplessness.

>

> Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma

> alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.

> what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?

> he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god. he

> taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which there

> was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.

>

>

> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >> >

> > >> >P.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> > >>

> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only

> so

> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I

> think

> > >> from

> > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can

> see where

> > >>

> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > >>

> > >> >so I thought I would

> > >> > check out

> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

> very least

> > >> I

> > >> > would be

> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

> before I

> > >>

> > >> > knew it

> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

> much. I was

> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally

> saw

> > >> AA

> > >> > for

> > >> >> what it was.

> > >>

> > >> > I

> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

> thanked her

> > >>

> > >> > for

> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was

> now

> > >> > actively

> > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

> received

> > >> my

> > >> > email!

> > >>

> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours

> seems

> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

> we've seen

> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on

> this

> > >> list,

> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

> themselves by reading

> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even

> be a lurker

> > >> here...

> > >>

> > >> >> kisses

> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> ----------

> > >> http://listen.to/benbradley

> > >>

> > >>

[Guest guest]

your right, but its worse still because AA teaches there is no

other way for " real " alcoholics that works other than AA. if

steppers say otherwise, dont believe them. its one of the

strongest underlying themes in AA; " your in AA's recovery for life,

or you will probably drink yourself to death " . In AA, you will not

learn of any other theories on alcoholism, groups which help, or

techniques of maintaining sobriety other than The Program.

Other ideas, if they do come up in conversation, will be scoffed

at and ridiculed.

so if you are already depressed and hopeless, and you just dont

like AA, you will be even more hopeless after learning that was

supposedly your last best hope.

and i know of stories and i know others here do as well, where

that has happened. Ken raggae, the founder of this forum wrote

about AA after friend of his committed suicide after being in AA.

my personal story on that is when i first went into AA i had 17

days sober, my best sustained sobriety ever. i was glad to be

doing better. but my sponsor told me i was " fired " because i

didn't read AA's bible as he demanded.

i was so disturbed by this and confused, it felt like somehow i

failed AA, like i had failed so much before from drinking. and

there was nothing left for me to do. so i left group feeling

hopeless and went on a bender for 6 months, a bender which

was worse actually because i had personified myself as a

alcoholic as i was taught, and i started drinking the way people

told me " we " drank, ways i never even imagined 17 days before.

i ahd no idea that it wasn't my problem but his, i was sober and

happy, and for only not be a student of bill wilsons i was deemed

a failure by him. I wasn't told i didn't have to accept that, that there

were other ways to sobriety other than AA's. maybe if i had, i

would have made a better choice for myself.

> > > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > > >> >

> > > >> >P.

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> > > >>

> > > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's

only

> > so

> > > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the

quote (I

> > think

> > > >> from

> > > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I

can

> > see where

> > > >>

> > > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > > >>

> > > >> >so I thought I would

> > > >> > check out

> > > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

> > very least

> > > >> I

> > > >> > would be

> > > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another

and

> > before I

> > > >>

> > > >> > knew it

> > > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it

so

> > much. I was

> > > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I

finally

> > saw

> > > >> AA

> > > >> > for

> > > >> >> what it was.

> > > >>

> > > >> > I

> > > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies

to. I

> > thanked her

> > > >>

> > > >> > for

> > > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I

was

> > now

> > > >> > actively

> > > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when

she

> > received

> > > >> my

> > > >> > email!

> > > >>

> > > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of

yours

> > seems

> > > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

> > we've seen

> > > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking

on

> > this

> > > >> list,

> > > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

> > themselves by reading

> > > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might

even

> > be a lurker

> > > >> here...

> > > >>

> > > >> >> kisses

> > > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> ----------

> > > >> http://listen.to/benbradley

> > > >>

> > > >>

[Guest guest]

i almost forgot, shame on me, if you are that hopeless person

and you say you think you may not need AA way, they will literally

suggest you go back out drinking and " experiment with your

sobriety " until your ready for AA. in which case they will be expect

you to crawl back " on your knees " like they say they did.

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " dmarcoot " wrote:

> so if you are already depressed and hopeless, and you just

dont

> like AA, you will be even more hopeless after learning that was

> supposedly your last best hope.

[Guest guest]

Message: 14

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:36:10 -0000

Subject: Re: (no subject)

>>>>>>if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its

ironic,

people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

helplessness. <<<<<<<<

'self-helplessness'......love that: thank you.

M.