Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing technique becuase it so seemingly innocent. i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious technique to begin with. but group reading of AA material is more about making sure everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind of 1984. > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of saying > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more approachable and > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part. > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when used in > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that everybody in > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks exactly > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that probably > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as skeptical > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In OA > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit and > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Everything in AA appeared to be really innocent to me up until 4 months ago. Never suspected that I was being duped, manipulated, and brainwashed. Gosh golly gee, what a surprise! Thats why I love this list, I learn something new every day! kisses z. Boy At 06:23 PM 17/12/01 +0000, you wrote: geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing technique becuase it so seemingly innocent. i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious technique to begin with. but group reading of AA material is more about making sure everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind of 1984. > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of saying > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more approachable and > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part. > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when used in > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that everybody in > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks exactly > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that probably > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as skeptical > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In OA > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit and > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent you over "the edge". I read the account of the last meeting you went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was. Re: Re: (no subject) Everything in AA appeared to be really innocent to me up until 4 months ago. Never suspected that I was being duped, manipulated, and brainwashed.Gosh golly gee, what a surprise!Thats why I love this list, I learn something new every day!kisses z. BoyAt 06:23 PM 17/12/01 +0000, you wrote: geez pete, i didnt think of how that language works in the bb meeting setting before. thats a pretty scary brainwashing technique becuase it so seemingly innocent. i never cared for it, group reading is waht you do when you want to ensure everyone can read on same level, which is a dubious technique to begin with.but group reading of AA material is more about making sure everyone actualy absorbs the material, which i always was kind of 1984.> > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of saying > > "I" , he used "we", which made it sound more approachable and > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part.> > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when used in > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that everybody in > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks exactly > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that probably > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as skeptical > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In OA > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit and > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I > refuse to read things and just pass the book on.> > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I always forget that there are new people coming around here all the time. So here is the ol' story one more time ((deep breath)) I was on a women's mailing list (a *lesbian* one, thought I would add that detail so that people who have heard this story before can pick up a new tidbit of information) when someone decided to pose a question. A friend of hers was having a problem with someone's drinking and she didn't know how she could help the situation and did we have any information that she could pass onto her friend . Well, super duper AA gal Del decided to pipe right on in and I said that she should get her butt to Alanon as fast as possible , do not pass go, do not collect 200.00 Well, another woman came on to respond to that suggestion and went ballistic at my suggestion. She started a heavy duty slagging, beating of AA and told the women *NO NO NO* to the Alanon idea. The anti-AA woman and I started to have some words which turned into a flame war and then we stomped off to our own corners swearing that we would never speak to each other again. Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, so I thought I would check out some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I would be able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I knew it ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA for what it was. I then continued to read and I joined this list and I gradually started to be able to think again. So, when people do start slagging AA, it does have an effect on people. Oh, after I left AA and joined this list and was finally waking up, I emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her for getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now actively deprogramming myself. She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my email! kisses Tom IMnotA Boy At 08:15 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote: What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what sent you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting you went to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. P. > >What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what > >sent you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting you went > >to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 nope, not that I know of. I am confused, should I? kisses Tomboy At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. P. > >What finally clued you in? I am serious. I have wondered for a while what > >sent you over " the edge " . I read the account of the last meeting you went > >to, but it never said what made you see AA for what it really was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name. i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me start questioning more and more. > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead of > saying > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more approachable > and > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his part. > > > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique when > used in > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that > everybody in > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks > exactly > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize that > probably > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as > skeptical > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at all! In > OA > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads a bit > and > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. Frequently I > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > > > P. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 At 06:01 PM 12/17/01 -0800, Tomboy wrote: > nope, not that I know of. I am confused, should I? No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million 12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters on this list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two, such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only a few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others easily. The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's. Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too. > kisses > Tomboy > > >At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > >P. >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where just having that attitude helped lead you out. >so I thought I would > check out >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > would be >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > knew it >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > for >> what it was. > I >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > for >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > actively >> deprogramming myself. >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > email! That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker here... >> kisses >> Tom IMnotA Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote: She is very very out as a queer woman. From the conversations I have had with her, she isn't active on any 12 step free recovery lists. At the same time I would never consider divulging her name or giving any information about her that would make her identifiable. Now the question makes more sense. Yes, I do know this woman. I quite frankly didn't understand the question. kisses Tom Boy No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million 12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters on this list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two, such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only a few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others easily. The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's. Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too. > kisses > Tomboy > > >At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > >P. >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where just having that attitude helped lead you out. >so I thought I would > check out >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > would be >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > knew it >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > for >> what it was. > I >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > for >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > actively >> deprogramming myself. >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > email! That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker here... >> kisses >> Tom IMnotA Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 another thought just occurred to me... unless of course you Pete was referring to me using the name " Del " ? if so, that is my name! kisses Tom Boy At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote: No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million 12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas in the " recovering-from-12-steps " corner there are the posters on this list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two, such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only a few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others easily. The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's. Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too. > kisses > Tomboy > > >At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > >P. >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where just having that attitude helped lead you out. >so I thought I would > check out >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > would be >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > knew it >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > for >> what it was. > I >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > for >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > actively >> deprogramming myself. >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > email! That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker here... >> kisses >> Tom IMnotA Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 No, Ben had it right. I wondered how she knew all the URLs, and hence maybe she had been on this list. Your story is really great, that sometimes the message gets through. Thank God that DeLuca is now posting on add_med, and its not just me and Fred Rotgers talking sense there. P. > > >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > > > > > >P. > > > > > > >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, > > > > ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so > >much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from > >the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where > >just having that attitude helped lead you out. > > > > >so I thought I would > > > check out > > >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > > > would be > > >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. > > >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > > > knew it > > >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was > > >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > > > for > > >> what it was. > > > > > I > > >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > > > for > > >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > > > actively > > >> deprogramming myself. > > >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > > > email! > > > > That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems > >unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen > >here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, > >presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading > >our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker > >here... > > > > >> kisses > > >> Tom IMnotA Boy > > > > > >---------- > >http://listen.to/benbradley > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 How about " My name's not important, I'm a compulsive overeater. " ??? I think this girl might have called herself a bulimic too. P. > > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead > of > > saying > > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more > approachable > > and > > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his > part. > > > > > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique > when > > used in > > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that > > everybody in > > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks > > exactly > > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize > that > > probably > > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as > > skeptical > > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at > all! In > > OA > > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads > a bit > > and > > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. > Frequently I > > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I love the explanations of why ya'll left. Helps me see things a bit more clearly. If ya'll want, keep 'em coming. Jump in at any time, guys. I tripped over aadeprogramming while I was searching for online meetings. I couldn't stand most of the people in the " live " meetings around my area (especially when they were friendly), but felt that I would die without meetings, so I was going to try online. I read the site, told a couple of my ex NA friends about it, and promptly went back to meetings for about 3 yr. Ok, I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes. The part on the site that said something like, " They tell you they are rapists and thieves, and then ask you for a ride home... " stuck with me. It ran through my mind every time I listened to someone share at a meeting. It drove me nuts, but helped drive me out of the rooms. I also had a friend who used to say, " My name is addict, and I'm a ______(insert name here) " . He meant it as a joke, kind of. It stuck in my head, too. I would tell people (because of him) that I wanted to be a human being first, and an addict/alcoholic second. I think I prefer not being an addict/alcoholic at all. Re: (no subject) > what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself > as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an > alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name. > i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me start questioning more and more. > > > > > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead > of > > saying > > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more > approachable > > and > > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his > part. > > > > > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique > when > > used in > > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that > > everybody in > > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks > > exactly > > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize > that > > probably > > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as > > skeptical > > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at > all! In > > OA > > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads > a bit > > and > > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. > Frequently I > > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Sure the message gets through sometimes. It just happened to hit me at the right time and the right place. I was bored and thought that I might as well check out what she was saying, if anything at least I could argue intelligently! My curiousity paid off. It was pure chance that I ended up leaving. So never doubt your power and what you say. Ya just never know who it might hit at the right time. kisses Tom Boy At 04:43 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: No, Ben had it right. I wondered how she knew all the URLs, and hence maybe she had been on this list. Your story is really great, that sometimes the message gets through. Thank God that DeLuca is now posting on add_med, and its not just me and Fred Rotgers talking sense there. P. > > >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > > > > > >P. > > > > > > >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, > > > > ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so > >much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from > >the 12 & 12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where > >just having that attitude helped lead you out. > > > > >so I thought I would > > > check out > > >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > > > would be > > >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. > > >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > > > knew it > > >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was > > >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > > > for > > >> what it was. > > > > > I > > >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > > > for > > >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > > > actively > > >> deprogramming myself. > > >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > > > email! > > > > That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems > >unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen > >here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, > >presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading > >our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker > >here... > > > > >> kisses > > >> Tom IMnotA Boy > > > > > >---------- > >http://listen.to/benbradley > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Next time she tells you that " you can't relate to others " tell her " thank you for sharing your experience " kisses Tom Boy At 01:19 AM 17/12/01 -0700, you wrote: Hello, my name is Drew. I have never been a member of a 12 step group, but my mother was. I am 33 years old. When my mother was in the group, she was constantly trying to indoctrinate me in.(recruit me without my awareness that I was being recruited) I guess this sounds pretty strange, but one time she was talking to me, and out of the blue, she snaps " You can't relate to others! " After that, it was as if I just heard her voice ringing in my head, saying " You can't relate to others! " More to the point, I had more dificulty relating to other, than ever before. I would feel angry, out of control. I would get so angry, that I would scare people away from me. I never had this problem before this confrontation at 27 years of age. I was wondering if this sounded like anyone elses experience here? Thank you, Drew. dmarcoot wrote: > what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself > as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an > alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name. > i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde me start questioning more and more. > > > > > > he also used a technique of persuasion where instead > of > > saying > > > > " I " , he used " we " , which made it sound more > approachable > > and > > > > less self centered. But this is also a deception on his > part. > > > > > > This is an incredibly effective brainwashing technique > when > > used in > > > meetings. When read out, it gives the impression that > > everybody in > > > the entire room, and everybody in every AA meeting, thinks > > exactly > > > the same way, and the poor sap newcomer doesnt realize > that > > probably > > > well over half the ppl in the room are recent arrivals as > > skeptical > > > as he is, and a fair number dont even want to be there at > all! In > > OA > > > they pass the damn book around so that everybody reads > a bit > > and > > > hence gets drawn into saying things for themself. > Frequently I > > > refuse to read things and just pass the book on. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 At 04:45 AM 12/18/01 -0000, watts_pete wrote: >How about " My name's not important, I'm a compulsive overeater. " ??? I >think this girl might have called herself a bulimic too. I seem to recall hearing that ( " My name's not important and I'm an alcoholic " ) in an AA meeting, and of course, everyone responds with " Hi, not important. " > >P. > > >> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself >> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an >> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name. >> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde >me start questioning more and more. I've also heard that sort of introduction a few times. I've heard " I'm Joe and I'm a garden variety alcoholic " , to emphasise that he was " nothing special. " I think somewhere in my gut I saw that " twisted self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the ones speaking as much as to AA itself. One thing that got me 'thinking', or continuing to think, about how anti-intellectual AA is, was when someone said " The most dangerous words an alcoholic can say are 'I've been thinking.' " I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but I didn't make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and studying all the things they do. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak and the individual fails to say " Hi I am __________ and I am an alcoholic " and then until the individual does identify themselves by name and label,people in the room will continue to yell " who are you? " " who are you " " who are you " " whats your name " " are you an alcoholic " " why are you here? " and this humiliation will continue until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in the room will howl with laughter and do the typical " Hi ________ " about as loud and as enthusiastic as they can. I always thought that was one of the cruelest things. kisses Tom boy At 12:47 AM 18/12/01 -0500, you wrote: At 04:45 AM 12/18/01 -0000, watts_pete wrote: I seem to recall hearing that ( " My name's not important and I'm an alcoholic " ) in an AA meeting, and of course, everyone responds with " Hi, not important. " > >P. > > >> what set off bells for me was i met a guy who introduced himself >> as " hi, im an alcoholic and my name is john " because being an >> alcoholic was more pertinent to his identity than his name. >> i thougth that was a pretty twisted self image to hold, whcih amde >me start questioning more and more. I've also heard that sort of introduction a few times. I've heard " I'm Joe and I'm a garden variety alcoholic " , to emphasise that he was " nothing special. " I think somewhere in my gut I saw that " twisted self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the ones speaking as much as to AA itself. One thing that got me 'thinking', or continuing to think, about how anti-intellectual AA is, was when someone said " The most dangerous words an alcoholic can say are 'I've been thinking.' " I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but I didn't make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and studying all the things they do. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 i left because i was attacked and called " toxic " for being a human being with human emotion rather than a " serene " and mindless AA parrot when both my parents were diagnosed with potentially fatal and ultimately fatal cancer. I left because all the wonderful self growth and awareness in sobriety which i experienced out side of AA was dismissed as being a false " pink cloud " . I left because after giving me the welcome wagon of love and support it quickly turned into guilt trips and shaming for entertaining the notion i could live a normal " earth person " life. i left because i realized i had wasted 8 months of my life trying to believe in a god i didn't believe in to give me the answers, instead of doing what i knew i should have instinctively done (which of course is just WRONG when it comes to your own stinking thinking and all). if i was allowed to believe in my own will, i could have healed a friendship sooner. instead, it took me 5 years to recover form that AA trauma. I left because ultimately, my sponsor was more interested in his own ego gratification than my well being. it was only after i left and started the journey of trusting my own mind, as some of you are doing now, i was able to see just how much i was bull shitted and harmed in AA. that i wasn't insane or doomed to die or be alone without them as they teach. a big part of that was learning i wasn't alone in what i thought of AA by forums like this, in particular the defunct Ex-aa mailing list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Hello, my name is Drew. I am not a member of any 12 step group, and I never have been. I think one reason that people might not speak out about twelve steps is that they are not aware of the kind of manipulation that can go on. If someone sees a twelve step member acting in an inapropriate way, they may assume that's just the way that person is.Another reason is even on the net, I am careful who I express my anti AA sentiments to. I don't want to lose friends on the net. I think the public at large thinks highly of AA, and might frown on someone criticizing them. Sincerely, Drew Tomboy wrote: another thought just occurred to me... unless of course you Pete was referring to me using the name "Del"? if so, that is my name! kisses Tom Boy At 10:23 PM 17/12/01 -0500, you wrote: No, I had the same thought as Pete. There are at least a million 12-steppers, and it seems like half of them are active online, whereas in the "recovering-from-12-steps" corner there are the posters on this list and alt.recovery.from-12-steps (and maybe an offshoot or two, such as Tommy's 12-step coertion watch list). There are perhaps only a few dozen people active in warning others about AA, whether in writing books, setting up websites, or just posting here and there, and those who have been on this list for a while can name many of the others easily. The point is that it feels like we are likely to recognize the name of any anti-AA'er who is familiar with the usual URL's. Of course, her name might be recognizable here, but perhaps she doesn't want you mentioning her name as a lesbian (or at least as having been on a lesbian list), and that's okay too. > kisses > Tomboy > > >At 01:58 AM 18/12/01 +0000, you wrote: >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > >P. >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think from the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can see where just having that attitude helped lead you out. >so I thought I would > check out >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least I > would be >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > knew it >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw AA > for >> what it was. > I >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > for >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > actively >> deprogramming myself. >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received my > email! That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this list, presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker here... >> kisses >> Tom IMnotA Boy ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 I saw that " twisted > self image " that you write about, but I attributed it to the ones > speaking as much as to AA itself. part of that sick thinking is just the saying " im an alcoholic " when i haven drank in years. the labeling of one self for life by a former habit, especially when it carries the stigma of the defect character baggage AA attributes to the alcoholic, is masochistic and part of the perpetual ego reduction AA needs to function as a cult > I knew there were many things that bothered me about AA, but I didn't > make any sense of them until I started reading about cults and studying > all the things they do. same here, thats actualy how i met you, you responded to my post on a ex cult newsgroup and pointed me towards the ex -aa list when i was out of AA 3 months and looking for information to support " my theory " at the time that AA was a cult. i had no idea anyone else thought that until you responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or or dont know anything about it probably do have a good impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a " self help group " . but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact. most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to turn their will over too. Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of the drink, not the person. if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic, people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self helplessness. Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral. what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary? he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god. he taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which there was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure. > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > >> > > >> >P. > >> > >> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, > >> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only so > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I think > >> from > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can see where > >> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out. > >> > >> >so I thought I would > >> > check out > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the very least > >> I > >> > would be > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and before I > >> > >> > knew it > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so much. I was > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally saw > >> AA > >> > for > >> >> what it was. > >> > >> > I > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I thanked her > >> > >> > for > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was now > >> > actively > >> >> deprogramming myself. > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she received > >> my > >> > email! > >> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours seems > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls we've seen > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on this > >> list, > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' themselves by reading > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even be a lurker > >> here... > >> > >> >> kisses > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy > >> > >> > >> ---------- > >> http://listen.to/benbradley > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if you have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into accepting powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state. Drew dmarcoot wrote: > thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or > or dont know anything about it probably do have a good > impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a " self > help group " . > > but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its > religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact. > > most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the > 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving > healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to > turn their will over too. > > Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or > self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose > not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they are > taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire of > the drink, not the person. > > if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic, > people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self > helplessness. > > Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma > alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral. > what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary? > he taught they were " powerless " , defective and needed god. he > taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease of which there > was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure. > > > > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > > >> > > > >> >P. > > >> > > >> > > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, > > >> > > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only > so > > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I > think > > >> from > > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can > see where > > >> > > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out. > > >> > > >> >so I thought I would > > >> > check out > > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the > very least > > >> I > > >> > would be > > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. > > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and > before I > > >> > > >> > knew it > > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so > much. I was > > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally > saw > > >> AA > > >> > for > > >> >> what it was. > > >> > > >> > I > > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I > thanked her > > >> > > >> > for > > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was > now > > >> > actively > > >> >> deprogramming myself. > > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she > received > > >> my > > >> > email! > > >> > > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours > seems > > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls > we've seen > > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on > this > > >> list, > > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' > themselves by reading > > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even > be a lurker > > >> here... > > >> > > >> >> kisses > > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------- > > >> http://listen.to/benbradley > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 your right, but its worse still because AA teaches there is no other way for " real " alcoholics that works other than AA. if steppers say otherwise, dont believe them. its one of the strongest underlying themes in AA; " your in AA's recovery for life, or you will probably drink yourself to death " . In AA, you will not learn of any other theories on alcoholism, groups which help, or techniques of maintaining sobriety other than The Program. Other ideas, if they do come up in conversation, will be scoffed at and ridiculed. so if you are already depressed and hopeless, and you just dont like AA, you will be even more hopeless after learning that was supposedly your last best hope. and i know of stories and i know others here do as well, where that has happened. Ken raggae, the founder of this forum wrote about AA after friend of his committed suicide after being in AA. my personal story on that is when i first went into AA i had 17 days sober, my best sustained sobriety ever. i was glad to be doing better. but my sponsor told me i was " fired " because i didn't read AA's bible as he demanded. i was so disturbed by this and confused, it felt like somehow i failed AA, like i had failed so much before from drinking. and there was nothing left for me to do. so i left group feeling hopeless and went on a bender for 6 months, a bender which was worse actually because i had personified myself as a alcoholic as i was taught, and i started drinking the way people told me " we " drank, ways i never even imagined 17 days before. i ahd no idea that it wasn't my problem but his, i was sober and happy, and for only not be a student of bill wilsons i was deemed a failure by him. I wasn't told i didn't have to accept that, that there were other ways to sobriety other than AA's. maybe if i had, i would have made a better choice for myself. > > > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious. > > > >> > > > > >> >P. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate, > > > >> > > > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only > > so > > > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I > > think > > > >> from > > > >> the 12&12): " We resigned from the debating society " . I can > > see where > > > >> > > > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out. > > > >> > > > >> >so I thought I would > > > >> > check out > > > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the > > very least > > > >> I > > > >> > would be > > > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs. > > > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and > > before I > > > >> > > > >> > knew it > > > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so > > much. I was > > > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally > > saw > > > >> AA > > > >> > for > > > >> >> what it was. > > > >> > > > >> > I > > > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I > > thanked her > > > >> > > > >> > for > > > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was > > now > > > >> > actively > > > >> >> deprogramming myself. > > > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she > > received > > > >> my > > > >> > email! > > > >> > > > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours > > seems > > > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls > > we've seen > > > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on > > this > > > >> list, > > > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' > > themselves by reading > > > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even > > be a lurker > > > >> here... > > > >> > > > >> >> kisses > > > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------- > > > >> http://listen.to/benbradley > > > >> > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 i almost forgot, shame on me, if you are that hopeless person and you say you think you may not need AA way, they will literally suggest you go back out drinking and " experiment with your sobriety " until your ready for AA. in which case they will be expect you to crawl back " on your knees " like they say they did. -- In 12-step-free@y..., " dmarcoot " wrote: > so if you are already depressed and hopeless, and you just dont > like AA, you will be even more hopeless after learning that was > supposedly your last best hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Message: 14 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:36:10 -0000 Subject: Re: (no subject) >>>>>>if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic, people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self helplessness. <<<<<<<< 'self-helplessness'......love that: thank you. M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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