(No subject)

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone ever been in a meeting where someone is asked to speak

> and the individual fails to say " Hi I am __________ and I am an

> alcoholic " and then until the individual does identify themselves

by

> name and label,people in the room will continue to yell " who are

> you? " " who are you " " who are you " " whats your name " " are you an

> alcoholic " " why are you here? " and this humiliation will continue

> until name and label are clearly given. At that point everyone in

the

> room will howl with laughter and do the typical " Hi ________ " about

> as loud and as enthusiastic as they can.

> I always thought that was one of the cruelest things.

I heard that crap far too many times while I was in the " rooms " . It

is a way to gain control over the newcomers who tend to commit the

cardinal sin of forgetting to say one's name or IDing themselves as

addicts/alkies. Most twelve steppers are the biggest idiots who use

this cult as an ego-builder at the expense of other people.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

.. I noticed when I was in AA that everyone

> seemed to love the chronic relapsers.

while those who are sober without AA are scoffed at as " dry

drunks " . AA wants people to never recover, if people could actual

recover and get on with thier lives they wouldnt need AA, and its

whole justification for existence would be threatened.

[Guest guest]

dmarcoot -

Don't know how to think like the general public yet...Need time.

Janice

dmarcoot wrote: certainly steppers would, but i was speaking of the impression of the general and not informed public has of looking at AA from the outside.> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.> > >> >> > >> >P.> > >>> > >>> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,> > >>> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in AA - there's only > so> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I > think> > >> from> > >> the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can > see where> > >>> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.> > >>> > >> >so I thought I would> > >> > check out> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the > very least> > >> I> > >> > would be> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and > before I> > >>> > >> > knew it> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so > much. I was> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally > saw> > >> AA> > >> > for> > >> >> what it was.> > >>> > >> > I> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I > thanked her> > >>> > >> > for> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I was > now> > >> > actively> > >> >> deprogramming myself.> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she > received> > >> my> > >> > email!> > >>> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence of yours > seems> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls > we've seen> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on > this> > >> list,> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming' > themselves by reading> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even > be a lurker> > >> here...> > >>> > >> >> kisses> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy> > >>> > >>> > >> ----------> > >> http://listen.to/benbradley> > >>> > >>

[Guest guest]

What kind of mediaction were you suposed to take?

Drew.

Tomboy wrote:

Oh absolutely, I have been suicidally depressed

on more than one occasion in the program. Every time I would get that depressed

(ie. walking down to the ocean to jump off the pier) people in AA would

warn me that if I took medication I wouldn't be sober.

I felt like such a failure in AA for the longest time. Being depressed

showed a sign of weekness that I wasn't following my program. Everytime

I got that low I would *try* and*try and*try* to do the steps better. Of

course that wouldn't help at all. So, I would go to more and more meetings

and that wouldn't help. It was horrible.

Since leaving AA I no longer feel any depression at all.

kisses

sunshine happy boy

At 01:59 AM 18/12/01 -0700, you wrote:

I am also concerned with whether

or not AA can cause suicide. I mean, if you

have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into

accepting

powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological state.

Drew

dmarcoot wrote:

> thats basically true, most people who have never been to aa or

> or dont know anything about it probably do have a good

> impression of what it is, a support group for alcoholics, a "self

> help group".

>

> but its also funny when most people when they go to AA say its

> religious too. until they are taught to literally ignore that fact.

>

> most people dont know AA basic principles is faith healing, the

> 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying to and receiving

> healing from a prayer answering god, whom they are expected to

> turn their will over too.

>

> Not one of the 12 step deal with actually choosing to not drink or

> self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that power to choose

> not to drink is taught to be unattainable by the individual, they

are

> taught to be powerless in step One. god removes the desire

of

> the drink, not the person.

>

> if they knew that, they would say of course its a cult. its ironic,

> people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self help, its self

> helplessness.

>

> Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for removing the Stigma

> alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed and immoral.

> what was his solution he brought which was so revolutionary?

> he taught they were "powerless", defective and needed god. he

> taught hey had a physical "INCURABLE" disease of which there

> was no real evidence of then nor almost 70 years later. go figure.

>

>

> > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just curious.

> > >> >

> > >> >P.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Now, I love to learn and I love to debate,

> > >>

> > >> ... that in itself made you 'dangerous' in

AA - there's only

> so

> > >> much you can learn about AA, and then there's the quote (I

> think

> > >> from

> > >> the 12 & 12): "We resigned from the debating society". I can

> see where

> > >>

> > >> just having that attitude helped lead you out.

> > >>

> > >> >so I thought I would

> > >> > check out

> > >> >> some of these links she was talking about , so at the

> very least

> > >> I

> > >> > would be

> > >> >> able to debate intelligently about anti-AA programs.

> > >> >> I go to one site and it leads to another and another and

> before I

> > >>

> > >> > knew it

> > >> >> ,it was 3 am and my neck was sore from shaking it so

> much. I was

> > >> >> thunderstruck. I couldn't deny what I was reading. I finally

> saw

> > >> AA

> > >> > for

> > >> >> what it was.

> > >>

> > >> > I

> > >> >> emailed the gal that I had become sworn enemies to. I

> thanked her

> > >>

> > >> > for

> > >> >> getting me thinking. I told her that I had left AA and I

was

> now

> > >> > actively

> > >> >> deprogramming myself.

> > >> >> She wrote back that her jaw had hit her knees when she

> received

> > >> my

> > >> > email!

> > >>

> > >> That's neat, it's wonderful. Such an occurrence

of yours

> seems

> > >> unusual from the reactions of the trolls and near-trolls

> we've seen

> > >> here, and yet there are hundreds of subscribers lurking on

> this

> > >> list,

> > >> presumable some of them are 'deprogramming'

> themselves by reading

> > >> our messages. The woman you're writing about might even

> be a lurker

> > >> here...

> > >>

> > >> >> kisses

> > >> >> Tom IMnotA Boy

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> ----------

> > >>

http://listen.to/benbradley

> > >>

> > >>

[Guest guest]

In my situation, AA was like an exclusive program. At

the place where i worked (http://www.apch.org) at I

had no idea what tha-fuck AA was. It is a non-profit

org that is supposely attempting to clean up the

community using AA as its core program(but they keep

it a secret.). There they overwork you, offer you

donated goodies and the head AAers pocket much of the

donated money. Young adults from the community are

their main targets for recruiting. They bait and hook

you with bits of college money and therapy from being

overworked. The therapists encourage you to get on

meds. After softening you up on meds and one-on-one

counseling, they gear you towards their mentoring

program. They use the MBTI test to pair you up with a

mentor/12-step lunatic sponsor. The sponsor I had

wanted to meet my college counselors, to see weekly

test scores and I was encouraged to leave my old

friends and to have relationships only at the youth

center(imagine a bunch of college students in their

20ties being babied). And if you attempt to leave

their work force, they become paranoid and bribe you.

If you return, they would start playing mind games as

a punishment. they break your ego down and make you

think like AA is the ONLY WAY. They secretly pay

bullies to start fights so you can learn the admends

process systematically. I was also geared to a home

where the students eventually become 12-step

participants. (un)fortunately i was pushed to a state

of psycosis and almost became one of those scary

wide-eyed sponsors myself. They were showing me how to

recruit using the mbti test and religious methods. I

was too much of an online reader. Online is where I

came across aadeprogramming site which i believe

saved my freaking life.

I completely severed my ties to the orginization. I

attempted to get another job and was mysteriously

fired. Then I started wondering why everyone that

left the center kept returning to the AA youth center.

So I came to realize they they pay big bucks to get

you fired and looking like a loser so you can return.

They have LAPD officers for their security that also

followed me around. I tried to go to the greyhound

and the cops where there waiting for me and frowning.

They whispered something to the ticket lady and my

tickets where prosponed. I returned later and bought

another but the story doesnt end there. At barstow

california right before leaving cali, the bus was

stopped by cops. a cop whispered something to the bus

driver, they both looked at me, the cop got off and we

departed.. In las vegas the bus driver whom had an

awkward look told me to take the bus back to LA and

steered everyone else to the correct terminal. I

weaseled my way back to another bus that took me to my

correct destination. I am now in safe for the

meantime.

The people i am dealing with have extreme power within

government agencies and large business. My sponsor is

a paid cut-throught politician/business executive.

She happens to work with the head honchos of the city

of LA. But as far as I am concerned all the money and

power that I was given isnt worth the state that I was

in. now i realize why shes in that depressive

obsessive state herself.

I feel much better now.

I know i probally posted this story before...but its

just a reminder of how power they have in california.

I am coming to the conclusion that this is the new

religion of our american empire.

Novus Ordo Seclorum? It's a scary thought, but a

possibility. Using the internet is perhaps our only

hope to having AA removed from america.

p.s. ...i am now enjoying a yummy beer. cheers

--- coleandr coleandr@...> wrote:

> What kind of mediaction were you suposed to take?

>

> Drew.

>

> Tomboy wrote:

>

> > Oh absolutely, I have been suicidally depressed

> on more than one

> > occasion in the program. Every time I would get

> that depressed (ie.

> > walking down to the ocean to jump off the pier)

> people in AA would

> > warn me that if I took medication I wouldn't be

> sober.

> > I felt like such a failure in AA for the longest

> time. Being depressed

> > showed a sign of weekness that I wasn't following

> my program.

> > Everytime I got that low I would *try* and*try

> and*try* to do the

> > steps better. Of course that wouldn't help at all.

> So, I would go to

> > more and more meetings and that wouldn't help. It

> was horrible.

> > Since leaving AA I no longer feel any depression

> at all.

> >

> > kisses

> > sunshine happy boy

> >

> >

> >

> > At 01:59 AM 18/12/01 -0700, you wrote:

> >

> >> I am also concerned with whether or not AA can

> cause suicide. I

> >> mean, if you

> >> have someone who is prone to depression, and is

> coerced into

> >> accepting

> >> powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's

> psychological

> >> state.

> >>

> >>

> >> Drew

> >>

> >> dmarcoot wrote:

> >>

> >> > thats basically true, most people who have

> never been to aa or

> >> > or dont know anything about it probably do

> have a good

> >> > impression of what it is, a support group for

> alcoholics, a " self

> >> > help group " .

> >> >

> >> > but its also funny when most people when they

> go to AA say its

> >> > religious too. until they are taught to

> literally ignore that

> >> fact.

> >> >

> >> > most people dont know AA basic principles is

> faith healing, the

> >> > 12 steps is a recipe for believing in, praying

> to and receiving

> >> > healing from a prayer answering god, whom they

> are expected to

> >> > turn their will over too.

> >> >

> >> > Not one of the 12 step deal with actually

> choosing to not drink or

> >>

> >> > self esteem and respect. on the contrary, that

> power to choose

> >> > not to drink is taught to be unattainable by

> the individual, they

> >> are

> >> > taught to be powerless in step One. god

> removes the desire of

> >> > the drink, not the person.

> >> >

> >> > if they knew that, they would say of course its

> a cult. its

> >> ironic,

> >> > people think of AA as self help. AA isn't self

> help, its self

> >> > helplessness.

> >> >

> >> > Magazines like Time credit bill wilson for

> removing the Stigma

> >> > alcoholics had before AA as being weak willed

> and immoral.

> >> > what was his solution he brought which was so

> revolutionary?

> >> > he taught they were " powerless " , defective and

> needed god. he

> >> > taught hey had a physical " INCURABLE " disease

> of which there

> >> > was no real evidence of then nor almost 70

> years later. go figure.

> >>

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > > >> >Do we know this lady Tomboy? Just

> curious.

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I am also concerned with whether or not AA can cause suicide. I

mean, if you

> have someone who is prone to depression, and is coerced into

accepting

> powerless, helpless, that can't help the person's psychological

state.

>

>

Drew

Hi Drew,

AA tries to plant that seed.

In Bill's story,

One poor chap committed suicide in my home. He could not,

or would not, see our way of life.

Also in We Agnostics, (55:5) find 'god' or self-destruct.

netty

[Guest guest]

At 09:45 PM 12/18/01 -0000, dmarcoot wrote:

>

>. I noticed when I was in AA that everyone

>> seemed to love the chronic relapsers.

To those who 'went out' drinking and came back, other AA members

can and often do say, " Thank you for drinking - your drinking helps

keep me sober. You drank, so now I don't have to. "

Many people actually do say in meetings that seeing someone come

back after drinking " helps keep the memory green " , helping them to

stay sober.

>while those who are sober without AA are scoffed at as " dry

>drunks " .

To these they might say (if they were actually honest) " Why

aren't you drinking? You should be drinking! Go ahead and drink,

dammit, so I can stay sober! "

>AA wants people to never recover, if people could actual

>recover and get on with thier lives they wouldnt need AA, and its

>whole justification for existence would be threatened.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Drew -

> Maybe you should go to a few 12-step meetings, if that's

possible. Not just one. Several. You will be able to see and

hear for yourself what is being " spoken " here.

> Janice

Janice, Please,

This is like recomending that someone should drink Windex,

just so you know for sure that is tastes really bad and makes you

sick. Some things do nor reqire first hand knowledge.

Devin

[Guest guest]

> >. I noticed when I was in AA that everyone

> >> seemed to love the chronic relapsers.

>

> To those who 'went out' drinking and came back, other AA

members

> can and often do say, " Thank you for drinking - your drinking

helps

> keep me sober. You drank, so now I don't have to. "

> Many people actually do say in meetings that seeing

someone come

> back after drinking " helps keep the memory green " , helping

them to

> stay sober.

>

ACK!!!!

You brought up one that really gets my goat! I remember walking

out a meeting when one of those pompus old-timers said " your

relapse keeps me sober " to a young guy who had obviously

been very traumatized by his experience. That was in spring of

2000 when I just started questioning the program. I thought: If I

don't walk out of here right now, I'm going to end up in jail for

assult and battery. I chose to leave the meeting.

Devin

[Guest guest]

Janice, I have to agree with Devin. i am sure your heart is in the right

place, but going to such a group in my opinion, is unwise.

God bless you, and may you have a wondeful Christmas.

Sincerely, Drew.

manypaths2 wrote:

>

> >

> > Drew -

> > Maybe you should go to a few 12-step meetings, if that's

> possible. Not just one. Several. You will be able to see and

> hear for yourself what is being " spoken " here.

> > Janice

>

> Janice, Please,

>

> This is like recomending that someone should drink Windex,

> just so you know for sure that is tastes really bad and makes you

> sick. Some things do nor reqire first hand knowledge.

>

> Devin

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> You brought up one that really gets my goat! I remember walking

> out a meeting when one of those pompus old-timers said " your

> relapse keeps me sober " to a young guy who had obviously

> been very traumatized by his experience. That was in spring of

> 2000 when I just started questioning the program. I thought: If I

> don't walk out of here right now, I'm going to end up in jail for

> assult and battery. I chose to leave the meeting.

>

> Devin

That reminds me of this pompous born-again Christian old-timer at the

Winter Park Group that I used to attend. He was sharing about how he

could no longer have contact with his oldest daughter, who was about

nineteen or twenty, because of her drinking and due to her being

raped as if a sexual assault was a " character defect " . Yet all of

the women steppers would always go up and hug this asshole after the

meeting!

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

>

> That reminds me of this pompous born-again Christian

old-timer at the

> Winter Park Group that I used to attend. He was sharing about

how he

> could no longer have contact with his oldest daughter, who

was about

> nineteen or twenty, because of her drinking and due to her

being

> raped as if a sexual assault was a " character defect " . Yet all of

> the women steppers would always go up and hug this asshole

after the

> meeting!

>

>

>

Had I been there, I would either have to leave or get arrested.

Isn't it great that we no longer have to feel any obligation to hug

assholes.

Devin

- I'll never hug another asshole

> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

After making my decision to leave AA, I went to an open meeting with a member who had asked me to. I was really surprised at what I heard which I didn't (or couldn't) hear before becoming enlightened about AA's true purpose. Drew has a leg up in *hearing* about the negativity, but I think that actually going to a meeting or two he would see "how it works" first-hand. That's why I made the suggestion.

Janice

coleandr wrote: Janice, I have to agree with Devin. i am sure your heart is in the rightplace, but going to such a group in my opinion, is unwise.God bless you, and may you have a wondeful Christmas.Sincerely, Drew.manypaths2 wrote:> > >> > Drew -> > Maybe you should go to a few 12-step meetings, if that's> possible. Not just one. Several. You will be able to see and> hear for yourself what is being "spoken" here.> > Janice>> Janice, Please,>> This is like recomending that someone should drink Windex,> just so you know for sure that is tastes really bad and makes you> sick. Some things do nor reqire first hand knowledge.>> Devin>>>>

[Guest guest]

see you on the dark side of the moon

[Guest guest]

Sounds a bit like AA - mixture of love (at least on the surface) and abuse

-----Original Message-----

From: skplws@...

and as adults we then seek out family like groups where we get both

love and abuse...it feels basic and normal to us at this point because

we have conditioned OURSELVES ....new anchors required.

[Guest guest]

Hi SKPLWS

The Salvation Army started here in Nottingham

they have their own can of worms with the ways and practises

(no subject)

> SAY WHAT YOU WANT ABOUT SALVATION ARMY...I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN

> FUNDAMENTALIST...THEY WERE HELPING PEOPLE A HUNDRED YEARS

> BEFORE AA WAS EVEN A WET DREAM. AFTER YEARS OF HAVING

> MY ORGANIZATIONS SOLICITED FOR DONATIONS I HAVE SETTLED ON THE RED CROSS AND

> SALVATION ARMY (SALLY)

> ALSO, THEY'RE ORINGINALLY FROM ENGLAND....THER WILL ALWAYS BE AN ENGLAND BUT

> THERE MAY NOT ALWAYS BE AN AA.

> RUN LIKE HELL!

> PINK FLOYD

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Must admit

the words to Bobby Brown are a lot more relevant than the Big Book

Dont get me started on the JW's, did some research on them a year ago when my

wife was getting interested in them, she soon dropped it when she found out some

of the truth about them.

(no subject)

> The Jehova Witnesses have five times as many members as they did at the

> turn of the last century...they wrongly predicted the end of the world five

> times

> in the twentieth century.

> Zappa once said:They aren't gettin any smarter out there..so beware.

>

> CALL ANY VEGETABLE AND IT WILL RESPOND TO YOU...ZAPPA

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Merry Christmas Lyn to you and your sweet family!

Love, beth

>From: Luckylyn38@...

>Reply-To: AtresiaMicrotia

>To: landb218@..., Rashraf@...,

>AtresiaMicrotia , Dcjs1490@..., DAB867@...,

>FLAMES8124@..., Cdc210@..., birdie2@...,

>Rocking@..., rynfees@..., Goathead18@...,

>Foleys@..., davegen@..., Cgradi@...,

>Champsx7@..., TERRYG5918@..., JIMLORI66@...,

>LJarolimek@..., RJarolimek@..., wavrunr789@...,

>Jordanjp@..., Jujordan@..., Dream219@...,

>Mnjinc1@..., MSpreadbury@..., Smstaj@...,

>FNMSUHM@..., Tfamily5@..., USALDT1@...,

>7806@..., Bandit1218@...

>Subject: (no subject)

>Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 01:24:53 EST

>

>MERRY CHRISTMAS

> ALL!

>Love,

>, Lyn,

>Riley & Trevor

>and KC-Rocket

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/25/01 10:29:01 AM Central Standard Time,

Heyboucher@... writes:

<< Merry Christmas Lyn to you and your sweet family!

Love, beth >>

Thank you beth! Hope you had a great Christmas!

Love,

Lyn

[Guest guest]

Sorry Joanna, I have dry skin and hair!!

Cara in Ohio

[Guest guest]

I don't have it. Dry skin, dry scalp. Lotion, lotion, lotion. Love Carolyn

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth, I have very dry skin, and my hair's been super

dry since the CU began, full of split ends! Especially with the

winter, and the furnace blowing. And before the CU, I still never

had oily skin or hair, it was still dry but not as dry as lately.

[Guest guest]

I do. Oily face and hair at least. Not the rest of my skin, just my face.

My hair has always been oily - have to wash it daily and if I was going

somewhere special for the evening, again before I'd go out.

I've been noticing that lots of people with CU have oily skin and hair. Is

that the norm for CU patience? If so, any ideas as to why?

Thanks a bunch

Joanna

[Guest guest]

Oily or dry skin and hair... I don't think there is a norm for CU patients

in general. Probably depends on the underlying cause of the CU, and any

other unrelated conditions a person has. Thyroid levels apparently affect

the natural skin and hair oils. So can washing with too hot of water,

though.... I've always had normal skin and hair, sometimes get a bit dry

during the winter.

Air hugs,

Jackie

Life is tough, but I'm tougher.

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

[Guest guest]

---------------------- Forwarded Message: ---------------------

To: " Bob Napientek " rnapientek@...>

Cc: " " jwillie92@...>, r.numata@...>, " Cliff

Merems " cliffmerems@...>, " terry dallin " terdal1@...>

Subject: Fw: (no subject)

Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:43:07 -0800

(no subject)

The FuneralA well-known cardiologist died and was given an elaborate funeral. A hugeheart covered in flowers stood behind the casket during the service.Following the eulogy, the heart opened, and the casket rolled inside. Theheart then closed, sealing the doctor in the beautiful heart forever. Atthat point one of the mourners burst into laughter.When confronted, he said "I'm sorry, I was just thinking of my own funeralI'm a gynecologist." At that point, the proctologist fainted