Re: (unknown)

[Guest guest]

I agree. I mostly lurk however we all do have differing views. What works with

one doesn't work with another and that doesn't make anything right or wrong.

The good Lord gave us each a conscience and we do what we think is right. Our

main goal is our kids.

M

(unknown)

I wouldn't assume that everyone on this list is pro-life.

***********************************************************

" Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of

battle. "

[Guest guest]

*chuckle* I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with my subject line.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Lucio Zuliani <zuliani@...> wrote:

>

>

> I am not sure why you have made this comment. There are a lot of people on

> this list so I think it is safe to assume that we all have somewhat

> differing views on most things. This is a support group for families members

> of people with Down Syndrome and I don't think our main objective is to

> debate pro-life/abortion issues. Are you sure you have the right list?

>

> Respectfully,

> Eunice Gordon

> mamma to two beautiful children, one with DS

>

> (unknown)

>

> I wouldn't assume that everyone on this list is pro-life.

>

> ***********************************************************

>

> " Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of

> battle. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

If that comment was made because you posted that incredible video, then I think

whomever posted the comment missed the point entirely.  What I saw were two

brave parents who gave birth to their child whom they loved and lost after 99

days.  They just happen to have known that the chances of their precious baby of

surviving were minimal, but chose to have him anyway.  I am glad they had the

right to make that choice.  But personally, for myself, I have my own views and

that has nothing to do with Down syndrome or any child with special needs.  The

fact is, before I had , I don't know what I would have done had I known she

was going to have Down syndrome, and that is simply because I was ignorant;

totally oblivious to being a parent of a child with special needs.  I hit my

knees daily thanking God I didn't know she would have Downs, and that is because

I could have made a horrible decision.

If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your life,

then this group is probably not for you.  We celebrate life and accomplishments

of our children and support one another.

Granny, your video was so moving that I posted it to my Facebook page in hopes

that my friends might learn the true meaning of being a parent, loving

your child unconditionally regardless...

And that would be my two cents :0)

  Moyers

Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

832-816-7992

www.marykay.com/jendmoyers

________________________________

From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:04:01 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

*chuckle* I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with my subject line.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Lucio Zuliani <zulianitin (DOT) it> wrote:

>

>

> I am not sure why you have made this comment. There are a lot of people on

> this list so I think it is safe to assume that we all have somewhat

> differing views on most things. This is a support group for families members

> of people with Down Syndrome and I don't think our main objective is to

> debate pro-life/abortion issues. Are you sure you have the right list?

>

> Respectfully,

> Eunice Gordon

> mamma to two beautiful children, one with DS

>

> (unknown)

>

> I wouldn't assume that everyone on this list is pro-life.

>

> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **

>

> " Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of

> battle. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well said, . If we want to vent about pro-life issues there are

other sites for that. I can suggest a couple.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers@...>wrote:

> If that comment was made because you posted that incredible video, then

> I think whomever posted the comment missed the point entirely. What I saw

> were two brave parents who gave birth to their child whom they loved and

> lost after 99 days. They just happen to have known that the chances of

> their precious baby of surviving were minimal, but chose to have him

> anyway. I am glad they had the right to make that choice. But personally,

> for myself, I have my own views and that has nothing to do with Down

> syndrome or any child with special needs. The fact is, before I had ,

> I don't know what I would have done had I known she was going to have Down

> syndrome, and that is simply because I was ignorant; totally oblivious to

> being a parent of a child with special needs. I hit my knees daily thanking

> God I didn't know she would have Downs, and that is because I could have

> made a horrible decision.

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

> Granny, your video was so moving that I posted it to my Facebook page in

> hopes that my friends might learn the true meaning of being a parent, loving

> your child unconditionally regardless...

>

> And that would be my two cents :0)

>

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay.com/jendmoyers

>

> ------------------------------

> *From:* Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>

> *To:*

> *Sent:* Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:04:01 AM

> *Subject:* Re: (unknown)

>

>

>

> *chuckle* I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with my subject line.

>

> granny

>

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Lucio Zuliani <zulianitin (DOT)

it<zuliani%40tin.it>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I am not sure why you have made this comment. There are a lot of people

> on

> > this list so I think it is safe to assume that we all have somewhat

> > differing views on most things. This is a support group for families

> members

> > of people with Down Syndrome and I don't think our main objective is to

> > debate pro-life/abortion issues. Are you sure you have the right list?

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Eunice Gordon

> > mamma to two beautiful children, one with DS

> >

> > (unknown)

> >

> > I wouldn't assume that everyone on this list is pro-life.

> >

> > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* **

> >

> > " Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of

> > battle. "

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

dentist.

Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people that

are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to terrorize

people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for the other side

of the story.

I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for those

with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they brought to our

lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can be painted with the

same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't need to.

I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had to

discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that meant

to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed our mind.

However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set out

the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my mother and

I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us felt, the guilt,

the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our normal life. Having a

special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the judgement that its worth it for

EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I was

married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care for our

'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough funding are

very very lucky and blessed.

But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume to

judge them if they made a different choice.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations are

different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work that way.

Hollie

________________________________

From: Moyers <jendmoyers@...>

Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>;

If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your life,

then this group is probably not for you.  We celebrate life and accomplishments

of our children and support one another.

[Guest guest]

I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person.  However, the video

was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it, perhaps I

would put more thought into what you said.  No one presented this video with a

" pro-life " agenda.  It was simply a video, and if you chose not to watch it,

that is your choice.  You are being very narrow-minded if you believe that the

video posted was to promote " pro-life " .  I am sorry that your experience with

Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear from a sibling, as I don't

know what it is like to be you.  However, for you to call a child with Down

syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded and you are missing the other

side of the picture.  Your experiences are relevant and meaningful for those who

have not had a sibling with special needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for

anyone else).  But, we have our own experiences as parents, and hopefully those

experiences

will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down syndrome

in 2009.

I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.  And

maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a lot we

can learn from one another!

  Moyers

Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

832-816-7992

www.marykay.com/jendmoyers

________________________________

From: Hollie <holliej@...>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

dentist.

Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people that

are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to terrorize

people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for the other side

of the story.

I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for those

with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they brought to our

lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can be painted with the

same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't need to.

I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had to

discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that meant

to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed our mind.

However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set out

the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my mother and

I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us felt, the guilt,

the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our normal life. Having a

special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the judgement that its worth it for

EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I was

married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care for our

'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough funding are

very very lucky and blessed.

But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume to

judge them if they made a different choice.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations are

different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work that way.

Hollie

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT) com>

Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your life,

then this group is probably not for you.  We celebrate life and accomplishments

of our children and support one another.

[Guest guest]

I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

(35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of news.

Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911 and

got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not for

I would be having empty nest syndrome.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers@...>wrote:

>

>

> I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented this

> video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose not

> to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear

> from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for you

> to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded

> and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> syndrome in 2009.

>

> I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

>

> I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a lot

> we can learn from one another!

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay.com/jendmoyers

>

> ________________________________

> From: Hollie <holliej@... <holliej%40>>

> <%40>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

> dentist.

>

> Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

> that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for

> the other side of the story.

>

> I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

> those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can

> be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't

> need to.

>

> I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had

> to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that

> meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed

> our mind.

>

> However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set

> out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our

> normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

>

> I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I

> was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough

> funding are very very lucky and blessed.

>

> But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume

> to judge them if they made a different choice.

>

> I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations

> are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> that way.

>

> Hollie

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT) com>

> Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

>

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am pro-choice. I make all my own choices. I didn't know before was born

that he had Down syndrome, I wouldn't do anything different, I had identical

twins and same thing I wouldn't do anything different.

I do agree with you about the " forever child " , some of our children

will be forever children, is 10 but functioning at only a 3 year old level,

he is unable to be potty trained, has an extremely limited vocabulary, major

behavior problems.

mom to 10 (down syndrome, bipolar, severe ADHD, autistic like tendencies,

GERD, asthma, allergies)

Abbey and a identical twins who will be 4 next month

Re: (unknown)

I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

dentist.

Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for the

other side of the story.

I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they brought

to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can be painted

with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't need to.

I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had to

discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that meant

to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed our mind.

However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set out

the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my mother and

I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us felt, the guilt,

the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our normal life. Having a

special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the judgement that its worth it for

EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I

was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care for

our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough funding

are very very lucky and blessed.

But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume to

judge them if they made a different choice.

I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations are

different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work that way.

Hollie

________________________________

From: Moyers <jendmoyers@...>

Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>;

If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your life,

then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and accomplishments

of our children and support one another.

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

I was just about to jump in here since is not feeling so well to

remind everyone why we're here and of the topics that are not usually discussed

on this list.

Thanks again-

**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy

steps!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585064x1201462784/aol?redir=http://\

www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=

JunestepsfooterNO62)

[Guest guest]

When you utter the words " this list is not for you " ,  do you speak for the

organizers?

Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function at 18

months and 36 months respectively.

My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish schedule.

My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore diapers until he was

10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day programs

for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including comments like

" hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a woman (my sister)

who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother speaks but only says

words involving food and is not always cute and adorable. He spent this morning

grabbing my computer and pinching me and my mother because he wanted more food

after he ate. At home, they can be themselves - adults with childish needs like

hugs and affection and praise for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their

shirt on. My sister gets to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother

gets to crawl in bed with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced

in the 'real world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age

or their physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a video. And

how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year old Down

Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of football

players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then this

isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and sister

because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They are

wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's my life.

I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list isn't

for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong place.

And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or delete my

name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent to the list.

Hollie

 

________________________________

From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

(35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of news.

Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911 and

got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not for

I would be having empty nest syndrome.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT) com>wrote:

>

>

> I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented this

> video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose not

> to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear

> from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for you

> to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded

> and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> syndrome in 2009.

>

> I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

>

> I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a lot

> we can learn from one another!

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

> dentist.

>

> Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

> that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for

> the other side of the story.

>

> I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

> those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can

> be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't

> need to.

>

> I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had

> to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that

> meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed

> our mind.

>

> However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set

> out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our

> normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

>

> I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I

> was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough

> funding are very very lucky and blessed.

>

> But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume

> to judge them if they made a different choice.

>

> I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations

> are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> that way.

>

> Hollie

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

>

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

This list is for you, Hollie! Just because and I have been lucky

doesn't mean I can't empathize with those who are less fortunate. I've

learned a lot from this list. For example, I've learned that when someone

stares at (which happens often), I put my arms around her and say to

that person, " Isn't she perfect? She is so perfect people are always staring

at her! "

The way you are helping your mother deal with your siblings is heroic. I

admire you for doing so and I bet your mother appreciates it. Your siblings

and your mother are blessed to have you.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Hollie <holliej@...> wrote:

>

>

> When you utter the words " this list is not for you " , do you speak for the

> organizers?

>

> Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

> Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function at

> 18 months and 36 months respectively.

>

> My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish

> schedule. My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore diapers

> until he was 10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

>

> I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day

> programs for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including

> comments like " hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a

> woman (my sister) who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother

> speaks but only says words involving food and is not always cute and

> adorable. He spent this morning grabbing my computer and pinching me and my

> mother because he wanted more food after he ate. At home, they can be

> themselves - adults with childish needs like hugs and affection and praise

> for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their shirt on. My sister gets

> to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother gets to crawl in bed

> with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced in the 'real

> world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age or their

> physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

>

> I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a

> video. And how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year

> old Down Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of

> football players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

>

> You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

> pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then

> this isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

>

> If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and

> sister because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They

> are wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's my

> life.

>

> I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

> without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list

> isn't for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong

> place.

>

> And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or

> delete my name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent to

> the list.

>

> Hollie

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@... <gem.bordages%40gmail.com>>

> <%40>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

> (35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

> such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

> I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

> dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

> help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

> work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of

> news.

> Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

> her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911

> and

> got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

> was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

> home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

> We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not

> for

> I would be having empty nest syndrome.

>

> granny

>

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers@...>wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> > video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> > perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented

> this

> > video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose

> not

> > to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> > believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> > your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to

> hear

> > from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for

> you

> > to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also

> narrow-minded

> > and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> > relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> > needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> > own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> > will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> > syndrome in 2009.

> >

> > I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> > And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

> >

> > I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a

> lot

> > we can learn from one another!

> > Moyers

> > Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> > 832-816-7992

> > www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> > @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> > Subject: Re: (unknown)

> >

> > I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at

> the

> > dentist.

> >

> > Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For

> people

> > that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> > Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> > terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look

> for

> > the other side of the story.

> >

> > I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association

> for

> > those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> > brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list

> can

> > be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I

> don't

> > need to.

> >

> > I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and

> had

> > to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what

> that

> > meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have

> changed

> > our mind.

> >

> > However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> > sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I

> set

> > out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> > mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> > felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to

> our

> > normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> > judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

> >

> > I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If

> I

> > was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> > for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and

> enough

> > funding are very very lucky and blessed.

> >

> > But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not

> presume

> > to judge them if they made a different choice.

> >

> > I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that

> situations

> > are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> > that way.

> >

> > Hollie

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> > Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

> >

> > If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> > life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> > accomplishments of our children and support one another.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ok folks, take it outside.

This discussion is over.

There are many different families on this list with all sorts of different views

and experiences.

Thank goodness we are open minded enough to read, chat and enjoy each other and

be supportive.

This is NOT a list where we are discussing prolife or not.. this is a list where

we support everyone.

There are certain subjects that ARE taboo on this list, and that's fine because

there are many other lists for those of you who want to have those debates.

Granny sent a beautiful video showing the love of parents, particularly a FATHER

on this wonderful weekend that we celebrate Fathers. Enjoy it for what it was.

Perhaps her subject line caused a bit of confusion, but I don't think she was

saying we all had to BE pro choice, I just think she was pointing out that this

couple was pro choice.

Either way.. leave it be. Enjoy the love shown in the video.

Enjoy your families, learn from the challenges and celebrate the joys.

And above all, remember this is a SUPPORT list for all the FAMILIES of people

with DS.... support each other or hush.

When my kids are talking rudely to each other or me.... I tell them " CITPOL " .

Change It To Please Our Lord.

They then say... AMEN and rephrase what they were saying in a kind and loving

way.. (well, that is what they are SUPPOSED to do...)

CITPOL, people!! No flames.. only support FOR ALL!

[Guest guest]

You only need to salt load if you are having detoxing symptoms like aching joints, foggy head, cloudy urine..... the list goes on. For me I didn't feel the detox until I went to 100 mgs so 50 may not do it for you or it may. Everyone is different. Pushing harder and faster isn't always good if your detox pathways get overloaded.

How much are you taking and with what?

Steph

(unknown)

I am doing the epsom salts baths every night. and the salt loading twice a day, a couple of times . Gracia suggested going to 50 mg. Is that the "light at the end of the tunnel" dose? I started doing the salt loading because I read a post mentioning reabsorption of bromide if one does not do some detoxing with celtic salt. But I've started to feel worse and worse. The epsom salts have cured my constipation and made me feel calmer. I appreciate your help!

[Guest guest]

,I did epsom salt baths for pain but still my magnesium in blood levels kept falling. I was taking 450 mg of magnesium orally too. Did Epsom Salts bath at least once a day and often multiple times a day. I find that ancient minerals magnesium oil sprayed on skin is more effective for that. Haven't had a chance to check the blood though yet. Need to give it more time. figured out that magnesium oil is actually cheaper  for year supply and means less carting around and storage too. Pam

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Francis <theresalwaystowanda@...> wrote:

I am doing the epsom salts baths every night.  and the salt loading twice a day, a couple of times . Gracia suggested  going to 50 mg.  Is that the " light at the end of the tunnel " dose?   I started doing the salt loading because I read a post mentioning reabsorption of bromide if one does not do some detoxing with celtic salt.  But I've started to feel worse and worse.  The epsom salts have cured my constipation and made me feel calmer.  I appreciate your help!

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . We needed that, and I second the motion. CITPOL, everybody!

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 11:58 AM, and FRANK <michdock@...>wrote:

>

>

> Ok folks, take it outside.

> This discussion is over.

>

> There are many different families on this list with all sorts of different

> views and experiences.

> Thank goodness we are open minded enough to read, chat and enjoy each other

> and be supportive.

> This is NOT a list where we are discussing prolife or not.. this is a list

> where we support everyone.

> There are certain subjects that ARE taboo on this list, and that's fine

> because there are many other lists for those of you who want to have those

> debates.

>

> Granny sent a beautiful video showing the love of parents, particularly a

> FATHER on this wonderful weekend that we celebrate Fathers. Enjoy it for

> what it was.

> Perhaps her subject line caused a bit of confusion, but I don't think she

> was saying we all had to BE pro choice, I just think she was pointing out

> that this couple was pro choice.

> Either way.. leave it be. Enjoy the love shown in the video.

> Enjoy your families, learn from the challenges and celebrate the joys.

> And above all, remember this is a SUPPORT list for all the FAMILIES of

> people with DS.... support each other or hush.

>

> When my kids are talking rudely to each other or me.... I tell them

> " CITPOL " .

> Change It To Please Our Lord.

> They then say... AMEN and rephrase what they were saying in a kind and

> loving way.. (well, that is what they are SUPPOSED to do...)

>

> CITPOL, people!! No flames.. only support FOR ALL!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My mag levels came out of the basement when I started to supplement with L-Taurine, 1,000mg. I use Twinlab brand.

 

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Pamela wrote:

I did epsom salt baths for pain but still my magnesium in blood levels kept falling. I was taking 450 mg of magnesium orally too. Did Epsom Salts bath at least once a day and often multiple times a day. I find that ancient minerals magnesium oil sprayed on skin is more effective for that. Haven't had a chance to check the blood though yet.

[Guest guest]

And to THAT, I say, " amen "

Kym

----- Original Message -----

From: " and FRANK " <michdock@...>

>

> CITPOL, people!! No flames.. only support FOR ALL!

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI...Hollie, I am the list owner. Please forgive me if I don't make sense,

I had surgery yesterday and am pretty high (good feeling, btw). I haven't

had time to read the latest debate, other than it has something to do with a

topic that we stay away from for the most part. It's hard to thought at

times because part of advocating for our children crosses over to the " A "

debate. I did write to Granny earlier today - she and my hsuband are the

worst pot stirrers in the world and it's a good thing he is not here with

her right now. I love Granny and her stories often remind me of where I

need to do more self-reflecting in raising my child.

With that said, I have a child who is almost 16 years old. He has down

syndrome, seizures and depending on the professionals, either PDD, NOS or a

slew of other DSMV-V diagnosis. I tend to believe he has PDD. Anyway, he

has challenging behaviors and he certainly doesn't fit in with the other

kids who are represented on this list..if I really compared him that way.

He does have 2 girls from here that he loves talking about--not sure what he

says, but he does say their names and talks about them being cute. He is

attending a private day school in another state. His old school was

clueless about educating children with the dual diagnosis. His teacher was

a home ec teacher - I could get started about where she realkly should work,

but I wo'nt. I did read your blog and I related to it 100%. Well, almost,

I only have one child with DS. But my daughters, who both are lurkers here,

probably relate even more so with you than I do. No one, and I mean no one,

knows the sacrifices we make to accomdate my child. I do hope God knows can

I sure can use a brownie points for heaven (just kidding for those who take

me seriously).

Despite his challenges, I relish in the joy he does give me. Recently I

went to a party where I saw an old friend. She was talking about

and the first time she saw him (at a ball field - he was 2 1/2) and she told

me she fell in love with him. She shared with her friends some of the

wandering stories and we laughed alot. HE's come a long way. He know has

idenfied his personal space within the house. He moved to the basement

(Mattcave) and loves that level of independence. I also relish in the

happiness that others have with their children- many who can be fully

included in school, date, talk well, etc. We each have our differences,

which makes Upsndowns very unique. Seriously, I have come to love so many

children from this list over the years. being one of them, even

though she is only her mother's child, she is an adult.

Anyway, do stay and share. People like me may benefit from what you ahve to

offer.

<--waiting for Tim to come and take me home

-- Original Message -----

From: " Hollie " <holliej@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:34 PM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

When you utter the words " this list is not for you " , do you speak for the

organizers?

Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function at

18 months and 36 months respectively.

My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish

schedule. My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore diapers

until he was 10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day

programs for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including

comments like " hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a

woman (my sister) who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother

speaks but only says words involving food and is not always cute and

adorable. He spent this morning grabbing my computer and pinching me and my

mother because he wanted more food after he ate. At home, they can be

themselves - adults with childish needs like hugs and affection and praise

for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their shirt on. My sister gets

to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother gets to crawl in bed

with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced in the 'real

world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age or their

physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a video.

And how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year old

Down Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of

football players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then

this isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and

sister because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They

are wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's my

life.

I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list

isn't for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong

place.

And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or

delete my name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent to

the list.

Hollie

________________________________

From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@...>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

(35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of news.

Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911 and

got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not for

I would be having empty nest syndrome.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT)

com>wrote:

>

>

> I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented this

> video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose

> not

> to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear

> from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for

> you

> to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded

> and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> syndrome in 2009.

>

> I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

>

> I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a

> lot

> we can learn from one another!

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

> dentist.

>

> Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

> that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for

> the other side of the story.

>

> I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

> those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can

> be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I

> don't

> need to.

>

> I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and

> had

> to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what

> that

> meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed

> our mind.

>

> However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I

> set

> out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to

> our

> normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

>

> I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If

> I

> was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough

> funding are very very lucky and blessed.

>

> But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not

> presume

> to judge them if they made a different choice.

>

> I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations

> are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> that way.

>

> Hollie

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

>

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad your surgery went well, , and pray for a speedy recovery.

I had to chuckle about your legal high. When I was in the recovery room

following my cancer surgery, the nurse asked me how I was feeling. I waved

my finger in the air and said, " Right now I feel better than anybody. "

Please continue to give me what for when I cross the line. I'm resolved that

the next mass mailout I do will not include verboten topics in the subject

line if I Bcc to our group. And I apologize to anyone I offended.

Group, I hope you all know I love you better than my luggage. :^)

Hugs,

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:02 PM, CSBC <cindysue@...> wrote:

>

>

> HI...Hollie, I am the list owner. Please forgive me if I don't make sense,

> I had surgery yesterday and am pretty high (good feeling, btw). I haven't

> had time to read the latest debate, other than it has something to do with

> a

> topic that we stay away from for the most part. It's hard to thought at

> times because part of advocating for our children crosses over to the " A "

> debate. I did write to Granny earlier today - she and my hsuband are the

> worst pot stirrers in the world and it's a good thing he is not here with

> her right now. I love Granny and her stories often remind me of where I

> need to do more self-reflecting in raising my child.

>

> With that said, I have a child who is almost 16 years old. He has down

> syndrome, seizures and depending on the professionals, either PDD, NOS or a

>

> slew of other DSMV-V diagnosis. I tend to believe he has PDD. Anyway, he

> has challenging behaviors and he certainly doesn't fit in with the other

> kids who are represented on this list..if I really compared him that way.

> He does have 2 girls from here that he loves talking about--not sure what

> he

> says, but he does say their names and talks about them being cute. He is

> attending a private day school in another state. His old school was

> clueless about educating children with the dual diagnosis. His teacher was

> a home ec teacher - I could get started about where she realkly should

> work,

> but I wo'nt. I did read your blog and I related to it 100%. Well, almost,

> I only have one child with DS. But my daughters, who both are lurkers here,

>

> probably relate even more so with you than I do. No one, and I mean no one,

>

> knows the sacrifices we make to accomdate my child. I do hope God knows can

>

> I sure can use a brownie points for heaven (just kidding for those who take

>

> me seriously).

>

> Despite his challenges, I relish in the joy he does give me. Recently I

> went to a party where I saw an old friend. She was talking about

> and the first time she saw him (at a ball field - he was 2 1/2) and she

> told

> me she fell in love with him. She shared with her friends some of the

> wandering stories and we laughed alot. HE's come a long way. He know has

> idenfied his personal space within the house. He moved to the basement

> (Mattcave) and loves that level of independence. I also relish in the

> happiness that others have with their children- many who can be fully

> included in school, date, talk well, etc. We each have our differences,

> which makes Upsndowns very unique. Seriously, I have come to love so many

> children from this list over the years. being one of them, even

> though she is only her mother's child, she is an adult.

>

> Anyway, do stay and share. People like me may benefit from what you ahve to

>

> offer.

>

> <--waiting for Tim to come and take me home

>

> -- Original Message -----

> From: " Hollie " <holliej@... <holliej%40>>

> < <%40>>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:34 PM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> When you utter the words " this list is not for you " , do you speak for the

> organizers?

>

> Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

> Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function

> at

> 18 months and 36 months respectively.

>

> My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish

> schedule. My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore

> diapers

> until he was 10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

>

> I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day

> programs for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including

> comments like " hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a

> woman (my sister) who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother

> speaks but only says words involving food and is not always cute and

> adorable. He spent this morning grabbing my computer and pinching me and my

>

> mother because he wanted more food after he ate. At home, they can be

> themselves - adults with childish needs like hugs and affection and praise

> for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their shirt on. My sister gets

>

> to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother gets to crawl in bed

>

> with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced in the 'real

> world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age or their

> physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

>

> I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a

> video.

> And how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year old

> Down Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of

> football players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

>

> You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

> pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then

> this isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

>

> If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and

> sister because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They

> are wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's

> my

> life.

>

> I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

> without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list

> isn't for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong

> place.

>

> And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or

> delete my name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent

> to

> the list.

>

> Hollie

>

> ________________________________

> From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@... <gem.bordages%40gmail.com>>

> <%40>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

> (35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

> such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

> I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

> dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

> help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

> work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of

> news.

> Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

> her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911

> and

> got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

> was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

> home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

> We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not

> for

> I would be having empty nest syndrome.

>

> granny

>

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT)

> com>wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> > video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> > perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented

> this

> > video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose

> > not

> > to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> > believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> > your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to

> hear

> > from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for

> > you

> > to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also

> narrow-minded

> > and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> > relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> > needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> > own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> > will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> > syndrome in 2009.

> >

> > I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> > And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

> >

> > I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a

> > lot

> > we can learn from one another!

> > Moyers

> > Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> > 832-816-7992

> > www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> > @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> > Subject: Re: (unknown)

> >

> > I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at

> the

> > dentist.

> >

> > Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For

> people

> > that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> > Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> > terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look

> for

> > the other side of the story.

> >

> > I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association

> for

> > those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> > brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list

> can

> > be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I

> > don't

> > need to.

> >

> > I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and

> > had

> > to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what

> > that

> > meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have

> changed

> > our mind.

> >

> > However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> > sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I

> > set

> > out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> > mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> > felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to

> > our

> > normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> > judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

> >

> > I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If

>

> > I

> > was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> > for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and

> enough

> > funding are very very lucky and blessed.

> >

> > But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not

> > presume

> > to judge them if they made a different choice.

> >

> > I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that

> situations

> > are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> > that way.

> >

> > Hollie

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> > Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

> >

> > If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> > life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> > accomplishments of our children and support one another.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well said !

Everyone on the list has their own opinion about education,

discipline,medications, vitamin therapy, religion etc./ We will never ALL

agree but we should be respectful to each other. If someone shares something

that is not, in our own opinion, correct, then we should just delete or keep

our opinion to ourselves. I for one know that's hard sometimes 80). If I

feel compelled to reply, then I say something like " In my opinion " or " I

personally don't agree "

It's hard to communicate by email, you can't hear ones' inflections which is

a very important part of spoken communication.

I guess the bottom line is RESPECT each others' opinions.

Just my humble opinion.....80)

Di

Re: (unknown)

> Ok folks, take it outside.

> This discussion is over.

>

> There are many different families on this list with all sorts of different

> views and experiences.

> Thank goodness we are open minded enough to read, chat and enjoy each

> other and be supportive.

> This is NOT a list where we are discussing prolife or not.. this is a list

> where we support everyone.

> There are certain subjects that ARE taboo on this list, and that's fine

> because there are many other lists for those of you who want to have those

> debates.

>

> Granny sent a beautiful video showing the love of parents, particularly a

> FATHER on this wonderful weekend that we celebrate Fathers. Enjoy it for

> what it was.

> Perhaps her subject line caused a bit of confusion, but I don't think she

> was saying we all had to BE pro choice, I just think she was pointing out

> that this couple was pro choice.

> Either way.. leave it be. Enjoy the love shown in the video.

> Enjoy your families, learn from the challenges and celebrate the joys.

> And above all, remember this is a SUPPORT list for all the FAMILIES of

> people with DS.... support each other or hush.

>

> When my kids are talking rudely to each other or me.... I tell them

> " CITPOL " .

> Change It To Please Our Lord.

> They then say... AMEN and rephrase what they were saying in a kind and

> loving way.. (well, that is what they are SUPPOSED to do...)

>

> CITPOL, people!! No flames.. only support FOR ALL!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

Hi Hollie,

Above is what I wrote, and it's my opinion.  You have two siblings in your life,

and like I said before, your experiences are very relevant, and I meant what I

said, I hope you continue to share your experiences.  I, for one, do not have

any idea what it is like to have a sibling with a special need.  Reading your

posts helps me to put what my other children may be experiencing into

perspective.

I don't like stereo-types.  I battle them everyday, as I am sure most people

battle different types of stereo-types in their own lives.  I was wrong to

assume that your using " forever childlike " was anything but a term of

endearment, and I apologize for doing so.  I hope you will accept my apology.

Having said that, I am truly sorry that our society is not capable of allowing

your brother and sister to be themselves.  It breaks my heart to read what you

wrote.  I can tell you as 's mom, my biggest fear is exactly what your

siblings are going through; not being accepted for who they are and treated with

compassion and dignity.  The battles you are fighting and the battles I fight

are not the same, however, the goal is.  I think we are all on the same team, we

just have different positions to play.  I may not understand how to play your

position, but I can learn from watching (reading) you, and I can offer you an

ear for listening, a shoulder to cry on, and my opinion if you ask for it (and

at times when you don't).  The one thing I can assure you of is this, I will

never pretend to know how you are feeling.

I do hope you will accept my apology.  I am open-minded, but I am a LONG way

from perfect.

Moyers

Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

832-816-7992

www.marykay.com/jendmoyers

________________________________

From: Hollie <holliej@...>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:34:19 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

When you utter the words " this list is not for you " ,  do you speak for the

organizers?

Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function at 18

months and 36 months respectively.

My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish schedule.

My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore diapers until he was

10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day programs

for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including comments like

" hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a woman (my sister)

who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother speaks but only says

words involving food and is not always cute and adorable. He spent this morning

grabbing my computer and pinching me and my mother because he wanted more food

after he ate. At home, they can be themselves - adults with childish needs like

hugs and affection and praise for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their

shirt on. My sister gets to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother

gets to crawl in bed with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced

in the 'real world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age

or their physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a video. And

how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year old Down

Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of football

players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then this

isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and sister

because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They are

wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's my life.

I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list isn't

for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong place.

And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or delete my

name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent to the list.

Hollie

 

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>

@grou ps.com

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

(35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of news.

Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911 and

got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not for

I would be having empty nest syndrome.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>wrote:

>

>

> I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented this

> video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose not

> to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear

> from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for you

> to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded

> and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> syndrome in 2009.

>

> I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

>

> I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a lot

> we can learn from one another!

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

> dentist.

>

> Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

> that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for

> the other side of the story.

>

> I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

> those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can

> be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I don't

> need to.

>

> I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and had

> to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what that

> meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed

> our mind.

>

> However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I set

> out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to our

> normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

>

> I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If I

> was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough

> funding are very very lucky and blessed.

>

> But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not presume

> to judge them if they made a different choice.

>

> I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations

> are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> that way.

>

> Hollie

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

>

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

We can tell cindy is feeling fine-just look at those typos! ; )

Judi

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf

Of CSBC

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 3:03 PM

; Hollie

Subject: Re: (unknown)

HI...Hollie, I am the list owner. Please forgive me if I don't make sense,

I had surgery yesterday and am pretty high (good feeling, btw). I haven't

had time to read the latest debate, other than it has something to do with a

topic that we stay away from for the most part. It's hard to thought at

times because part of advocating for our children crosses over to the " A "

debate. I did write to Granny earlier today - she and my hsuband are the

worst pot stirrers in the world and it's a good thing he is not here with

her right now. I love Granny and her stories often remind me of where I

need to do more self-reflecting in raising my child.

With that said, I have a child who is almost 16 years old. He has down

syndrome, seizures and depending on the professionals, either PDD, NOS or a

slew of other DSMV-V diagnosis. I tend to believe he has PDD. Anyway, he

has challenging behaviors and he certainly doesn't fit in with the other

kids who are represented on this list..if I really compared him that way.

He does have 2 girls from here that he loves talking about--not sure what he

says, but he does say their names and talks about them being cute. He is

attending a private day school in another state. His old school was

clueless about educating children with the dual diagnosis. His teacher was

a home ec teacher - I could get started about where she realkly should work,

but I wo'nt. I did read your blog and I related to it 100%. Well, almost,

I only have one child with DS. But my daughters, who both are lurkers here,

probably relate even more so with you than I do. No one, and I mean no one,

knows the sacrifices we make to accomdate my child. I do hope God knows can

I sure can use a brownie points for heaven (just kidding for those who take

me seriously).

Despite his challenges, I relish in the joy he does give me. Recently I

went to a party where I saw an old friend. She was talking about

and the first time she saw him (at a ball field - he was 2 1/2) and she told

me she fell in love with him. She shared with her friends some of the

wandering stories and we laughed alot. HE's come a long way. He know has

idenfied his personal space within the house. He moved to the basement

(Mattcave) and loves that level of independence. I also relish in the

happiness that others have with their children- many who can be fully

included in school, date, talk well, etc. We each have our differences,

which makes Upsndowns very unique. Seriously, I have come to love so many

children from this list over the years. being one of them, even

though she is only her mother's child, she is an adult.

Anyway, do stay and share. People like me may benefit from what you ahve to

offer.

<--waiting for Tim to come and take me home

-- Original Message -----

From: " Hollie " <holliej@... <mailto:holliej%40> >

< <mailto:%40> >

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:34 PM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

When you utter the words " this list is not for you " , do you speak for the

organizers?

Because while you may be blessed with a high functioning adult with Down

Syndrome or other disability, I am blessed with two siblings who function at

18 months and 36 months respectively.

My brother didn't walk until he was 8, My sister walked at a normalish

schedule. My sister potty trained in normalish time, my brother wore diapers

until he was 10 and still occasionally needs Depends when he is six.

I don't find " Forever-children " offensive. I find it offensive that day

programs for adults insist on treating all Downs people the same including

comments like " hugs are inappropriate behavior - she needs to ask " about a

woman (my sister) who doesn't talk and makes up her own signs. My brother

speaks but only says words involving food and is not always cute and

adorable. He spent this morning grabbing my computer and pinching me and my

mother because he wanted more food after he ate. At home, they can be

themselves - adults with childish needs like hugs and affection and praise

for going potty and gentle reminders to keep their shirt on. My sister gets

to sit in my lap and be 'my little sister'. My brother gets to crawl in bed

with my mom and smile and be himself. They are often forced in the 'real

world' to act their age. Well what is their age? their mental age or their

physical age? Are we painting everyone with the same brush again?

I could write a great deal and that's why I blog. One person posted a video.

And how inspiring it was. Have you seen " Shorty " ? its about a 55 year old

Down Syndrome man who functions at a high level and changes the lives of

football players at a local small town college. That's inspirational.

You are correct. If this list is about putting our heads in the sand and

pretending that everything is always well and that we never struggle, then

this isn't what I was looking for. There are Ups and Downs.

If a fire started in my house, I would have to evacuate my brother and

sister because fire alarms mean nothing to them. They can't call 911. They

are wonderful company most days and a pain in the butt other days. That's my

life.

I am very passionate about this and I should be - I have never known life

without Down Syndrome. If you find my bluntness offensive and if this list

isn't for sharing actual opinions, then you're right, I'm in the wrong

place.

And people, when you press " Reply to All " , either email me directly or

delete my name from the email list - I don't need copies of what you sent to

the list.

Hollie

________________________________

From: Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@... <mailto:gem.bordages%40gmail.com>

>

<mailto:%40>

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:10:45 AM

Subject: Re: (unknown)

I'm with you, . We've all had different experiences. My

(35,DS) behaves as an adult. She has been nothing but a joy to me and is

such a big help to me in my old age. A product of special education, and as

I've often bragged, she reads, writes, takes care of her own hygeine,

dresses tastefully, does her own banking, pays her own bills and is a big

help to me around the house. She goes off to work every day at a sheltered

work-shop/school for adults and comes home happy as a clam and full of news.

Everything we've set out to teach her, she has learned. She just learns at

her own, more civilized pace. When I had my heart attack, she called 911 and

got an ambulance for me. She saved my life! When I had cancer surgery, she

was at the hospital every day (with her siblings) and helped care for me at

home while I recovered. The hardest part of my day is when she is not here!

We do a lot of fun things together on weekends and evenings. Were it not for

I would be having empty nest syndrome.

granny

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Moyers <jendmoyers (DOT)

com>wrote:

>

>

> I read what you said, and I am a very open-minded person. However, the

> video was not about a child with Down syndrome, and had you watched it,

> perhaps I would put more thought into what you said. No one presented this

> video with a " pro-life " agenda. It was simply a video, and if you chose

> not

> to watch it, that is your choice. You are being very narrow-minded if you

> believe that the video posted was to promote " pro-life " . I am sorry that

> your experience with Down syndrome was difficult, and it's is nice to hear

> from a sibling, as I don't know what it is like to be you. However, for

> you

> to call a child with Down syndrome a " forever child " is also narrow-minded

> and you are missing the other side of the picture. Your experiences are

> relevant and meaningful for those who have not had a sibling with special

> needs (me-not pressuming I am speaking for anyone else). But, we have our

> own experiences as parents, and hopefully those experiences

> will help you better understand how it is to raise a child with Down

> syndrome in 2009.

>

> I am asking that you please not make this about pro-choice or pro-life.

> And maybe you should watch the video, it was really cool.

>

> I meant what I said about posting about your experiences, we all have a

> lot

> we can learn from one another!

> Moyers

> Kay Independent Beauty Consultant

> 832-816-7992

> www.marykay. com/jendmoyers

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Hollie <holliej (DOT) com <holliej%40. com>>

> @grou ps.com <%40g roups.com>

> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:07:55 AM

> Subject: Re: (unknown)

>

> I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like toothbrushes at the

> dentist.

>

> Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'. For people

> that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

> Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse to

> terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you look for

> the other side of the story.

>

> I believe the point was that just because we have a strong association for

> those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift they

> brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this list can

> be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right now, I

> don't

> need to.

>

> I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one point and

> had

> to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my baby had DS and what

> that

> meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have changed

> our mind.

>

> However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down Syndrome

> sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed herself if I

> set

> out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was when my

> mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all of us

> felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go back to

> our

> normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make the

> judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or realistic.

>

> I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live now. If

> I

> was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able to care

> for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support and enough

> funding are very very lucky and blessed.

>

> But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could not

> presume

> to judge them if they made a different choice.

>

> I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that situations

> are different and hard decisions can never be avoided. Life doesn't work

> that way.

>

> Hollie

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Moyers <jendmoyers@ . com>

> Gem Bordages <gem.bordages@ gmail.com>; @grou ps.com

>

> If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs in your

> life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life and

> accomplishments of our children and support one another.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Way to go - can you tell she has lots of kidlets LOL

I love this list

And Hollie- the sibling look into our kids lives is very

important.........So please stay - you get used to Granny needing her

metamucil , me sprouting Aussie stuff and banter in

general.......some weekends we even share jokes

and - Amen

Aussie Leis -- mum to 11 (ds); Natasha 7; 5 and Liliana 1

You know that children are growing up when they start asking questions

that have answers.

J. Plomp._ _

and FRANK wrote:

> Ok folks, take it outside.

> This discussion is over.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Get well soon - I posted on your facebook already- but get well

again

Least you will have something to chat about with Timbo on the way

home....hope he misses all the bumps for ya - and maybe he will by you a

hotdog with the lot!!!!

Aussie Leis – mum to 11 (ds); Natasha 7; 5 and Liliana 1

You know that children are growing up when they start asking questions

that have answers.

J. Plomp._ _

CSBC wrote:

> HI...Hollie, I am the list owner. Please forgive me if I don't make sense,

> I had surgery yesterday and am pretty high (good feeling, btw).

[Guest guest]

LOL! I thought the same thing!

Re: (unknown)

& gt;

& gt; I think that generalizations are easy to hand out like

toothbrushes at the

& gt; dentist.

& gt;

& gt; Pro-choice is not all about 'killing', 'fear' or 'its my body'.

For people

& gt; that are openminded, you can look at the other side of the story.

& gt; Pro-life is not all about 'life' - its also been used as an excuse

to

& gt; terrorize people going to a clinic. Again for the openminded, you

look for

& gt; the other side of the story.

& gt;

& gt; I believe the point was that just because we have a strong

association for

& gt; those with Down Syndrome and special needs - that we see the gift

they

& gt; brought to our lives, its not an assumption that everyone on this

list can

& gt; be painted with the same brush. I didn't watch the video. Right

now, I

& gt; don't

& gt; need to.

& gt;

& gt; I have two siblings with Down Syndrome. I was pregnant at one

point and

& gt; had

& gt; to discuss the reality of what it might mean if my20baby had DS and

what

& gt; that

& gt; meant to my husband. I miscarried and we decided it would not have

changed

& gt; our mind.

& gt;

& gt; However, *I* know how hard every single day is and having a Down

Syndrome

& gt; sibling who is mentally about 2 1/2, who can dress and feed

herself if I

& gt; set

& gt; out the materials is still work. I also know how unhappy she was

when my

& gt; mother and I weren't able to take care of her. I know the pain all

of us

& gt; felt, the guilt, the struggle, the loss every time we had to go

back to

& gt; our

& gt; normal life. Having a special needs child IS a sacrifice. To make

the

& gt; judgement that its worth it for EVERYONE is not openminded or

realistic.

& gt;

& gt; I gave up a lot of things as did my mother to live the way I live

now. If

& gt; I

& gt; was married still, I'm not sure I could. Those of us who are able

to care

& gt; for our 'forever children' ourselves, with a network of support

and enough

& gt; funding are very very lucky and blessed.

& gt;

& gt; But while I might show someone my story if they wanted, I could

not

& gt; presume

& gt; to judge them if they made a different choice.

& gt;

& gt; I'm not pro life or pro choice. I believe in acknowledging that

situations

& gt; are different an

d hard decisions can never be avoided. Life

doesn't work

& gt; that way.

& gt;

& gt; Hollie

& gt;

& gt; ____________ _________ _________ __

& gt; From: Moyers & lt;jendmoyers@ . com & gt;

& gt; Gem Bordages & lt;gem.bordages@ gmail.com & gt;;

@grou ps.com

& gt;

& gt; If you are pro-choice and do NOT have a child with special needs

in your

& gt; life, then this group is probably not for you. We celebrate life

and

& gt; accomplishments of our children and support one another.

& gt;

& gt;