Guest guest Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Sue could you send me that too? I thought I had saved it cause I printed it out and gave it to my ND and I can't find it now :-( I'd sure appreciate it! Marcia Re: glutathione Hi , > Do I need to boost my glutathione levels? If so why is whey powder, > which > is rather expensive especially when shipped here to the UK, prefered > to glutathione tablets/capsules/sublingual lozenges which are > cheaper? I've just e-mailed you a comprehensive post that a member of this list, Rich V., wrote in August about ways of boosting glutathione. Sue , Upstate New York This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2005 Report Share Posted October 14, 2005 Hi Sue, Could you possibly just re-post it to the list? There seem to be a number of us who saw the message and thought we saved it, but now we can't locate it. Thanks. Re: glutathione > > > Hi , > > > Do I need to boost my glutathione levels? If so why is whey powder, > > which > > is rather expensive especially when shipped here to the UK, prefered > > to glutathione tablets/capsules/sublingual lozenges which are > > cheaper? > > I've just e-mailed you a comprehensive post that a member of this list, > Rich V., wrote in August about ways of boosting glutathione. > > Sue , > Upstate New York > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with > each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any > treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2005 Report Share Posted October 15, 2005 Hi , Hi Marcia > Could you possibly just re-post it to the list? There seem to be a > number > of us who saw the message and thought we saved it, but now we can't > locate > it. >> Sue could you send me that too? I thought I had saved it cause I >> printed >> it out and gave it to my ND and I can't find it now :-( Here it is. Sue , Upstate New York ========================= Message: 5 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:04:10 -0000 From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> Subject: Ways to build up glutathione Here is an updated version of my summary of ways to build glutathione: August 19, 2005 Augmenting Glutathione in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome There are several ways to augment one's glutathione. It is a good idea to proceed slowly at first if glutathione has been depleted for an extended period of time (months to years), because toxins and infections may have been allowed to build up in the absence of sufficient glutathione to keep them under control. If glutathione is then brought up rapidly, the mobilization of toxins can produce a Jarisch Herxheimer reaction, which is an exacerbation of symptoms that can make a person feel very unpleasant. Also, see the particular comments about mercury below. Here are some approaches for building glutathione (Note that names of products, laboratories and suppliers are given for information only, not as recommendations. There may be others not mentioned that are satisfactory): 1. Oral supplements, such as the " nondenatured " or " native " whey protein products (ImmunoPro Rx or RenewPro), the " undenatured " whey protein products (e.g. Immunocal, ImuPlus, etc.), such as from http.//www.immunesupport.com or http://www.needs.com or http://www.iherb.com, the fermented goat-milk-based version of whey protein, Goatein, available from www.gardenoflifeusa.com, amino acid precursors including N-acetylcysteine, glycine and glutamic acid (such as from Jeff at http://www.cfsn.com), N-acetylcysteine together with dietary protein, or reduced glutathione supplements per se, both available from health food stores. One supplier of oral reduced glutathione is http://www.theranaturals.com. A relatively new oral supplement is Lipoceutical Glutathione, which is reduced glutathione encapsulated in tiny liposomes made from soy- based phosphatidylcholine, available from http://www.wellnesshealth.com. This latter form is relatively expensive, but more of the glutathione is absorbed intact and appears to be carried to various cells of the body encapsulated in the liposomes. There is also another liposomal form of glutathione called LipoFlow, available from http://www.arrowheadhealthworks.com. No prescription is required for the above oral supplements. ImmunoPro Rx and RenewPro are actually " native " or " nondenatured, " being made from whey that has not been heated to high temperatures or treated with acid as in cheese making, which the " undenatured " products' starting material have undergone, so that they have more cysteine present as actual cysteine per se rather than the oxidized form cystine, and cysteine is more useable by the liver for making glutathione, particularly in a person who is depleted in glutathione. The " undenatured " and " nondenatured " whey protein products can be problematical for those with allergies to whey proteins, and the goat-milk based version Goatein may be helpful in such cases, even though the fermentation process likely converts much of the cysteine to cystine. Many dairy allergies are actually sensitivities to pasteurized milk proteins or allergies to casein, which is the part of milk protein that goes into the curd fraction, rather than into whey, so a dairy food allergy or sensitivity may not be an allergy to nondenatured whey protein. The amino acid precursors should not present problems of allergic reactions, but should be taken with high quality dietary protein to ensure that they are used effectively and that if mercury is present, its transport into the brain is not encouraged. Some PWCs do not tolerate glutamic acid well. In such cases, glutamine (or better yet, a product called Glutimmune, available from http://www.wellwisdom.com) can be substituted for the glutamic acid, and taken together with N-acetylcysteine and glycine. The reduced glutathione supplements are a more expensive approach than the whey or NAC-based approaches. Free reduced glutathione appears to be largely broken down in the gut into amino acids, so there is probably not an advantage to taking regular capsules of reduced glutathione per se except for the cells of the intestines themselves, but Lipoceutical Glutathione is not significantly broken down in the gut and is able to enter cells in its intact form more easily, and LipoFlow likely behaves similarly. These latter two products may actually be absorbed through the wall of the stomach. Oral supplements are probably the best way to raise the glutathione level in the liver, since the liver gets first access to oral supplements via the portal vein, and it is normally the main producer of glutathione in the body and an exporter of glutathione to the systemic blood and the bile. The liver is probably not able to take glutathione from the blood for its own use, so approaches that put glutathione per se into the blood probably are not very helpful in directly building glutathione in the liver. If there is a high level of mercury in the body, such as can occur if glutathione has been low for an extended period of time (months to years) and the person either has silver amalgam fillings in their teeth or they have consumed a significant amount of large, predatory fish, including tuna, then caution should be exercised by limiting the dosages of oral supplements that supply amino acids to the liver for making glutathione. There are two reasons for this: The first is that mercury can be moved into the brain from other parts of the body by cysteine or N-acetylcysteine if the dosages are too high. Dr. Quig of Doctors Data Laboratories recommends limiting the dosage of NAC to 300 mg per day and taking it with a high protein diet if heavy metals are elevated. The second reason is that mercury can block the utilization of cysteine, and if cysteine rises too high, it can act as a neurotoxin. (This last is also the reason L-cysteine is not recommended as a supplement for building glutathione.) It's a good idea to measure the blood plasma level of cysteine periodically when building glutathione, to make sure it is not rising too high. If elevated mercury is suspected, it is a good idea to test for mercury and detox it carefully if it is present, with the help of a doctor experienced in doing this. The best test is a collection of urine for 6 hours, preceded by a challenge with the chelator DMSA (succimer). A very small dosage of DMSA should be tried first, to make sure there is not an allergic reaction to it. A test of this type is offered as a Toxic Metals Panel by http://www.doctorsdata.com. If there is elevated mercury, it may also be wise to begin building glutathione using one of the approaches below, which put glutathione per se into the blood, rather than one of the oral approaches that help the liver to make glutathione. This may help to remove the mercury more " gently, " starting with the kidneys, which absorb most of the glutathione put directly into the blood. 2. Intramuscular injections, as pioneered by Dr. Salvato in Houston. She injects 100 mg of glutathione with 1 mg of ATP, intramuscularly, 2 times per week. One source of IM glutathione is McGuff Compounding Pharmacy in Santa Ana, CA (phone: (877)444-1133, fax: (877)444-1155). This probably benefits most the muscle into which it is injected, but it is also reported to have systemic effects. 3. Intravenous injections, and particularly fast I.V. pushes, as advocated and used by Dr. Kane and her co-authors of The Detoxx Book (www.detoxxbook.com) as part of their overall detox protocol. The book says they do an I.V. push over 3 to 5 minutes starting with 1,500 mg of glutathione in 12 cc of sterile water for adults, and going as high as 2,500 mg in 15 cc of sterile water, one to two time per week for 3 to 6 months or more. They suggest Wellness Health and Pharmaceuticals in Birmingham, AL as the source for injectable reduced glutathione (phone: (800)227-2627, fax: (205) 879-6551). Intravenous glutathione injections seem to be becoming more prevalent. I think they were pioneered in the U.S. by Dr. Perlmutter (after initial work in Italy by Dr. Secchi) for the treatment of Parkinson's disease, but they are being used in other disorders as well. Several cell types are able to extract glutathione from the blood, break it down, import the pieces, and resynthesize it inside the cell, via the gamma glutamyl cycle. Other types of cells can import glutathione intact from the blood. This approach requires a visit to a doctor's office, and it is relatively expensive to get these injections repeatedly. 4. Glutathione suppositories from a compounding pharmacy. One source is Hopewell Pharmacy in New Jersey (phone: (800)792-6670). One person told me they use suppositories containing 250 mg of glutathione. Another told me that they are also available in 500 mg doses from http://www.wellnesshealth.com. I don't know how much gets into the blood with this method, but I suspect that it is substantial. This is a relatively inexpensive way to put glutathione into the blood. I think a prescription is required for this form. 5. Glutathione nasal spray. I've heard of people formulating their own by mixing glutathione solution from compounding pharmacies with saline solution. I don't know how much glutathione is absorbed into the blood this way, but I suspect it is less than with the suppositories. It's important to keep the solution refrigerated and to use it soon after it is mixed, because the reduced glutathione undergoes chemical changes over time in solution. 6. Glutathione transdermal skin creams (available from http://www.kirkmanlabs.com) (no prescription required). Lotions are also sold. These may have a strong smell. A stabilized reduced glutathione transdermal gel is available from http://www.leesilsby.com. I don't know how much of the glutathione gets into the blood with these products. 7. Glutathione sublingual troches from a compounding pharmacy. One source is Lionville Natural Pharmacy in Lionville, PA (phone: (877) 363-7474, fax: (610)363-5707) These are made in orange and blueberry flavors, and are composed of a very firm gel. There are also hard troches in orange flavor. I don't know how much gets into the blood. 8. Nebulizer application to the lungs, as pioneered by Dr. Buhl et al. at the NIH and as described by Dr. n Whitaker in his newsletter Health and Healing. Dr. Buhl used 600 mg in a few milliliters of water per application. Dr. Whitaker uses 300 mg, two times per day, applied over 5 to 10 minutes with a nebulizer, available from a medical supply company. He recommends Wellness Health and Pharmaceuticals (numbers given above) and California Pharmacy and Compounding Center (http://www.californiapharmacy.com) as sources for the glutathione. Nebulized glutathione is being used for a variety of lung diseases now, including chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), cystic fibrosis, interstitial pulmonary fibrosis and multiple chemical sensitivity. There are reports that quite a bit gets into the blood using this approach. Hudson, who has helped to pioneer use of aerosol glutathione in cystic fibrosis, suggests L-Glutathione Plus capsules from http://www.theranaturals.com, mixed with boiled water, applied with a nebulizer. No prescription is required for the capsules, and it may also be possible to get a nebulizer without a prescription. suggests one capsule containing 200 mg of reduced glutathione mixed into 3 or 4 ml of boiled water. An important feature of this source of glutathione (available without a prescription) is that it is buffered with sodium bicarbonate. Bishop, M.D., wrote me that this buffering is important, because if the pH is too acid, it can lead to bronchospasm when nebulizing. People who are subject to asthmatic attacks should not use nebulized glutathione, as it can result in bronchospasm, thought to be caused by the sulfites that form when glutathione is mixed with water. It's also very important in nebulizing to use pure, boiled or sterile water, and a clean nebulizer in order to prevent introducing infections or respirable particulates into the lungs. Because of these issues, nebulizing is best done under the supervision of a doctor or a respiratory therapist. 9. Take turmeric (the yellow spice in mustard and in food eaten in India). The curcumin in this spice has been shown to stimulate glutathione production. Some people are using more than one of these modes simultaneously. My current opinion is that it is a good idea to start at low dosages to see how well it is tolerated, and then work up as it is tolerated. I think that a combination of an oral approach to build the liver's ability to make glutathione combined with one or more of the approaches that puts intact glutathione into the blood is probably the optimum way to build glutathione. It is a good idea to measure the glutathione level before starting to try to build glutathione to see if it is low, and then, if it is low, to measure again after trying to build it for a few months, to see how your approach is working. There are several ways to do this. Probably the cheapest is to measure the red blood cell glutathione. Two labs that offer this test are Immunosciences Lab (www.immuno-sci-lab.com) and Amscot Medical Labs (midwest5@...). Great Smokies Diagnostic Lab (www.gsdl.com) offers an assessment of the glutathione detoxification pathway in its Comprehensive Detox panel. An analysis of urinary organic acids by either www.greatplainslaboratory.com or www.metametrix.com will give an indirect assessment of glutathione status, particularly in the skeletal muscles (via citric acid and alpha ketoglutaric acid measurements) and the kidneys (via pyroglutamic acid aka 5-oxo- proline measurement). A measurement of glutathione function in the lymphocytes is offered by www.spectracell.com. I favor the Spectracell test if a person can afford it. Otherwise, the red blood cell test is still useful. It's also a good idea to measure the blood plasma level of cysteine periodically when building glutathione, to make sure it is not rising too high. If a person is high in mercury, this can block the pathways that use cysteine, and it can build up. In the future, I hope that studies will be done of genetic variations in CFS that may be behind the tendency toward glutathione depletion. Such genetic variations have been found in autism If anyone reading this finds errors or knows of things that have been left out, please let me know at richvank@.... Thank you. Rich Van Konynenburg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2005 Report Share Posted October 15, 2005 > > Here it is. > > Sue , > Upstate New York > ========================= > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:04:10 -0000 > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> > Subject: Ways to build up glutathione > > Here is an updated version of my summary of ways to build > glutathione: > > > August 19, 2005 > > Augmenting Glutathione in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome > > There are several ways to augment one's glutathione. > If anyone reading this finds errors or knows of things that have > been left out, please let me know at richvank@a... Thank you. > > Rich Van Konynenburg Hi Sue, Rich & all, I have read that Avocados are high in Glutathione. Selenium is reported to recycle glutathione. * Source Naturals makes a sublingual Glutathione. Milk Thistle affects glutathione . * Al Ref: *based on Google Searches of key words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:09:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, MiaNova00@... writes: Question about the Gutathione: I might be mistaken, but I thought that taking Glutathione itself was useless, because the body won't process it right that way? I was under the impression that you were supposed to take L-glutamine, and the body converts that to Glutathione? ================ The problem with glutathione is that it is poorly absorbed. To overcome the small percentage that is absorbed it has to be given in larger concentration or given as its pre-cursor l-cystine. Both glutathione and l-cystine are contained in the three supplements Immunoprop, Immunocal and Immunopro. The glutathione and l-cystine levels are highest in Immunoprop. Joy Research assistant to Dr Enlander _www.enlander.com_ (http://www.enlander.com/) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Whey Protein provides the precursors to build Glutathione. regards Cs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I would read the Pangloss book mentioned in recent days to really understand the rate-limiting steps leading up to glutathione synthesis. You can take certain supplements to increase your glutathione by adding in supplements that make up for your own glitches on the pathways to glutathione (sulfur pathways). Some do well on the immunocal/immunepro and others have a tough time (I can't stand such whey derivatives and do badly on them). Wellness pharmacy makes a liposomal glutathione, they have taken out the glycerin and reduced the price and anecdotal reports show that this protects it from degradation by stomach acid and since liposomes are preferentially taken up by cells, it is likely to be getting into the cells--and clinical response esp. from cystic fibrosis kids seems to be good. YOu can also supplement it IV which I do and find very excellent. > > In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:09:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > MiaNova00@a... writes: > > Question about the Gutathione: > > I might be mistaken, but I thought that taking Glutathione itself was > useless, because the body won't process it right that way? I was under the > impression that you were supposed to take L-glutamine, and the body converts > that to Glutathione? > ================ > > The problem with glutathione is that it is poorly absorbed. To overcome the > small percentage that is absorbed it has to be given in larger concentration > or given as its pre-cursor l-cystine. > Both glutathione and l-cystine are contained in the three supplements > Immunoprop, Immunocal and Immunopro. The glutathione and l-cystine levels are > highest in Immunoprop. > > Joy > Research assistant to Dr Enlander > _www.enlander.com_ (http://www.enlander.com/) > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 On May 20, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Dirk Coetsee wrote: > Hi! > > I was going to buy some liposomal GSH. I was wondering if anybody > knew of a > cheaper form I could take it in (not whey). This is a very new product, Dirk. It's the first oral glutathione that actually works; and it's been on the market less than a year. So, no, you're not going to find it any cheaper. Your only other option is whey protein. Don't bother with the supplement pills; the stuff disintegrates in your mouth and stomach before it can be absorbed. That's why it has to be put into liposomes (which is not a cheap process for any drug). Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Hi All After having CFS for over 15 years I have found a product that has helped immensely. I take a teaspoon in the morning and in the evening of Extreme Performance Plus Glutathione. I've had more energy. It's worth the money. --- wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 , I tried to find this. Who makes it??? Do you have a website??? Thank you for your help. Janet in SAn Diego maria tassios <mariatassios2@...> wrote: Hi All After having CFS for over 15 years I have found a product that has helped immensely. I take a teaspoon in the morning and in the evening of Extreme Performance Plus Glutathione. I've had more energy. It's worth the money. --- wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 , I tried to find this product. Who makes it??? Do you have a website I can order from??? How do you get it??? Thank you, Janet in San Diego mariatassios2 <mariatassios2@...> wrote: Janet I have tried the Extreme Performance glutathione with marvelous results. This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:13 AM, rvankonynen wrote: > How does the cell-mediated immune response become suppressed? I > think it is another result of the depletion of glutathione. I think > it is likely that your glutathione has become depleted, as a result > of the exposure to the variety of toxins you reported earlier. > And quite a few PWCs (people with CFS) have found that trying to > build glutathione by the direct approach of supplementing it or > getting injections or consuming whey protein products or N- > acetylcysteine is not sufficient to restore it to normal. As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job. Having the extra glutathione in my system has rolled back a tremendous number of my CFS symptoms. My brain works. Most of the secondary infections -- including the near-constant candida-related scalp and female issues -- have cleared up. There's good reason to believe that I'm gradually chelating out a big load of long-stored heavy metals. And several of my organ systems (including my heart, which I'm increasingly convinced is my core issue, and which is about the only thing that doesn't seem to be on a long-term uptrend) are noticeably more functional. I can't imagine life without it. But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan. That's more than reason enough to do it. Somebody (kdbrill?) started on whey powder today and is feeling miserable. Welcome to the club. I felt really horrible for the first three days after my first GSH dose, and generally crappy for about the next two weeks. But, at the same time, there was a growing sense that something good was happening, especially on the neurological front. It felt like a flu; but after those first few days, parts of me felt better than I had in years. So I stuck with it, and encourage you to stick with it, too. GSH absolutely does cause herxing, especially if you've got decades of animal, vegetable, and mineral crud to move out. Clear your schedule and try to ride it out, if you can. If you can't, drop your dosage until the symptoms fall off to a manageable level. In the meantime, eat well, drink lots, and do whatever you can to cleanse your system and stimulate your immune system to handle the increased load. (I was put on ProBoost the same day I started the GSH, which I believe helped quite a bit.) And stay the hell away from the Tylenol -- there are few things that deplete GSH in the body faster than acetominiphen. If you must, go for aspirin or ibuprofen instead. As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them. Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support money can buy. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 -----Original Message----- From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Mercuria S As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them. **** Really ? I haven't noticed this at all. What makes you say this ? Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support money can buy. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Sara> As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job. I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to diabetics. A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of ‘glutathione diabetes.’ How about Type G Diabetes :-)? I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and this time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has been saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results. Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to supplement with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by itself. After each item I will describe the theory of how this helps the glutathione levels. * Salt/C – the C may be recycling glutathione (6-12g daily of C), and the salt may be reducing dysbiosis and thus reducing biotoxin load and freeing some glutathione (4-6g daily of natural unprocessed sea salt – salt kills most gram negative bacteria in the gut but does not harm the friendly flora). * Molybdenum – supports the glutathione pathway * Modifilan – powerful toxin-binding seaweed extract, used after Chernobyl to pull out uranium, helps reduce circulating mercury levels, thus freeing liver enzymes that otherwise would be blocked. * EDTA – pull out metals, possibly including mercury (2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, oral supplement 500mg) * Vitamins E, A, and Selenium – support glutathione production (precursors) * Meditation, skilled relaxation, emotional processing – reduce my stress response and therefore raise glutathione. I believe this is very important since research shows that a stress and/or fight/flight response depletes glutathione. So if you are an ‘auto-stressor’ personality, or have continual emotional upsets, you are lowering your own glutathione levels even further. * Pre-emptive resting – build-up glutathione and also adrenals prior to exertion, lowers post-exertion problems. * Staying in the energy envelope – a tightly controlled daily routine, bedtimes, etc., tracking and managing stress and energy load, much as a diabetic must track glucose load. * Proline/Lysine and other herbal antivirals/abx – keep the pathogen activity under control to avoid more depletion of glutathione. Probably as we detox and build glutathione the immune will work better against most bugs, but I still take supplements to kill them now and then. * EMF avoidance and blocking – EMF exposure, particularly cell phones, cell towers, and other microwave signals, appears to cause a type of distress that depletes glutathione (anecdotal based on personal experience). * Detox support – I am using ‘Ultimate Cleanse’ and there are many other good herbal cleansing therapies. I believe this is essential in reducing the discomfort from the detox effects of the rising GSH. Also, if we have been GSH depleted for years, even decades, we have quite a toxin backlog to remove. * Mold avoidance and mold-free living – this helps reduce additional drains on the detox system as mold appears to shut-down part of the detox capacity. Probably having mold exposure and the resulting biological melt-down of the lowered MSH levels further depletes glutathione as it would lead to a spike in toxin levels. * Epsom salt baths and magnesium sulfate crème (transdermal) – support the later part of the sulfur cycle. * Lots of systemic and digestive enzymes – lower the load of partially-digested proteins and therefore lower any food allergies, etc. Probably this indirectly supports glutathione status. After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary adjunct therapies. There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now this is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments, many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can all be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a revelation to me. So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking about this illness. But of course, there are probably other subsets in CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs, but probably those are helped by GSH building. AS far as Sara’s comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a nearly ordinary life again. I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if not most of us… And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone production that is broken, if we can track down our blocks. I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that is a quite useful test for PWC. I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as well. --Kurt Re: Glutathione On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:13 AM, rvankonynen wrote: > How does the cell-mediated immune response become suppressed? I > think it is another result of the depletion of glutathione. I think > it is likely that your glutathione has become depleted, as a result > of the exposure to the variety of toxins you reported earlier. > And quite a few PWCs (people with CFS) have found that trying to > build glutathione by the direct approach of supplementing it or > getting injections or consuming whey protein products or N- > acetylcysteine is not sufficient to restore it to normal. As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job. Having the extra glutathione in my system has rolled back a tremendous number of my CFS symptoms. My brain works. Most of the secondary infections -- including the near-constant candida-related scalp and female issues -- have cleared up. There's good reason to believe that I'm gradually chelating out a big load of long-stored heavy metals. And several of my organ systems (including my heart, which I'm increasingly convinced is my core issue, and which is about the only thing that doesn't seem to be on a long-term uptrend) are noticeably more functional. I can't imagine life without it. But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan. That's more than reason enough to do it. Somebody (kdbrill?) started on whey powder today and is feeling miserable. Welcome to the club. I felt really horrible for the first three days after my first GSH dose, and generally crappy for about the next two weeks. But, at the same time, there was a growing sense that something good was happening, especially on the neurological front. It felt like a flu; but after those first few days, parts of me felt better than I had in years. So I stuck with it, and encourage you to stick with it, too. GSH absolutely does cause herxing, especially if you've got decades of animal, vegetable, and mineral crud to move out. Clear your schedule and try to ride it out, if you can. If you can't, drop your dosage until the symptoms fall off to a manageable level. In the meantime, eat well, drink lots, and do whatever you can to cleanse your system and stimulate your immune system to handle the increased load. (I was put on ProBoost the same day I started the GSH, which I believe helped quite a bit.) And stay the hell away from the Tylenol -- there are few things that deplete GSH in the body faster than acetominiphen. If you must, go for aspirin or ibuprofen instead. As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them. Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support money can buy. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 In a message dated 19/06/2006 22:44:02 GMT Standard Time, mercuria@... writes: But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan. That's more than reason enough to do it. *** I think youll need to add other supps - to reverse other issues. regards CS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Kurt R. wrote: > I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor > for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to > diabetics. > A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of ‘glutathione > diabetes.’ How about Type G Diabetes :-)? > > I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful > negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added > several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and > this > time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem > with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has > been > saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the > glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results. > > Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work > for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different > hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to > supplement > with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by > itself. Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we (meaning Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the system works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And it's starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've been sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained irreversible damage. In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround. Exogenous GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to thinking I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred other things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party, because I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not going to sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20 years. I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list would certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say, I probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I hadn't been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first. > After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work > for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary > adjunct therapies. I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty impressive. His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the next, unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily with the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized that there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed closed. It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP) blocking my methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm not yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using exogenous forms of glutathione instead. > There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now > this > is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments, > many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can > all > be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a > revelation to > me. Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's recent announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the stuff Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's heart hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by other doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment links into GSH in one way or another. > So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking > about this illness. But of course, there are probably other > subsets in > CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be > separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs, > but probably those are helped by GSH building. You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body to handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme, mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced blood volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the heart issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it. Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody will chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so long now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on line. On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce toxin load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little I've got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it. > AS far as Sara’s comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be > true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a > nearly > ordinary life again. I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM, brain fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used to dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be) if I could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only thing left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as the rest of me continues to get better. GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose, I could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go into palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But I'm still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible family history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart failure, this is not a good sign. (I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a new assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious for misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let alone " boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm falling through that crack.) > I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if > not most of us… I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of people here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not with anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for is safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore most of what we had before. > And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone > production that is broken, if we can track down > our blocks. And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us cannot. (Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!) > I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a > liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that > is a quite useful test for PWC. GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time. > I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the > methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as > well. Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a two- week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone while on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover I don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-inducing stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom (as well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to Greece every year!) if it proves true. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote: > As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem > really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them. > > **** Really ? I haven't noticed this at all. What makes you say > this > ? The half-dozen times I've gotten cranky (or worse) e-mails about various incremental steps I've taken along the way -- all in the theme of, " Why bother doing X? It's a waste of time. I'd rather focus on a CURE! " There have been a few people here who earnestly believe that if it's not eliminating the root causes, it's not worth our time or money. I do keep hearing from them, to the point where I'm feeling a bit defensive about advocating incremental steps that may only increase functionality and comfort. Coming straight out and saying that mere functionality and comfort are the best that 95% of us can ever hope for feels a bit like taping a target to my head. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:57 PM, bhammanuk@... wrote: > > In a message dated 19/06/2006 22:44:02 GMT Standard Time, > mercuria@... writes: > > But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just > going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some > significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan. > That's more than reason enough to do it. > > > *** I think youll need to add other supps - to reverse other issues. Ya think? I give up. Sara (whose list of other supplements is literally fifty items long) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 I agree with you completely, Sara. Maybe that understanding comes only after many years of illness. And maybe those of us who are sicker find life almost intolerable without some relief. So we settle for less than a cure. Kath J. F. Re: Re: Glutathione There have been a few people here who earnestly believe that if it's not eliminating the root causes, it's not worth our time or money. I do keep hearing from them, to the point where I'm feeling a bit defensive about advocating incremental steps that may only increase functionality and comfort. Coming straight out and saying that mere functionality and comfort are the best that 95% of us can ever hope for feels a bit like taping a target to my head. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Sara, Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few questions come to mind now: 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting? 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH boosting? In other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now? 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention, plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you briefly mention the other things you are using? 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH again. However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and co-infections? If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this experience. For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at times only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full energy again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production. But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years of abx, and it could all come down to genetics. Still, if we have ever been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our CFS. 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years (definitely have earned your veteran status). How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What was your functional level then and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that is far removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while improving some. --Kurt Re: Re: Glutathione On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Kurt R. wrote: > I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor > for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to > diabetics. > A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of 'glutathione > diabetes.' How about Type G Diabetes :-)? > > I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful > negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added > several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and > this > time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem > with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has > been > saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the > glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results. > > Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work > for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different > hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to > supplement > with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by > itself. Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we (meaning Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the system works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And it's starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've been sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained irreversible damage. In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround. Exogenous GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to thinking I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred other things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party, because I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not going to sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20 years. I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list would certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say, I probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I hadn't been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first. > After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work > for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary > adjunct therapies. I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty impressive. His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the next, unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily with the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized that there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed closed. It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP) blocking my methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm not yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using exogenous forms of glutathione instead. > There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now > this > is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments, > many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can > all > be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a > revelation to > me. Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's recent announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the stuff Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's heart hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by other doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment links into GSH in one way or another. > So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking > about this illness. But of course, there are probably other > subsets in > CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be > separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs, > but probably those are helped by GSH building. You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body to handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme, mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced blood volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the heart issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it. Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody will chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so long now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on line. On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce toxin load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little I've got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it. > AS far as Sara's comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be > true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a > nearly > ordinary life again. I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM, brain fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used to dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be) if I could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only thing left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as the rest of me continues to get better. GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose, I could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go into palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But I'm still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible family history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart failure, this is not a good sign. (I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a new assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious for misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let alone " boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm falling through that crack.) > I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if > not most of us. I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of people here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not with anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for is safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore most of what we had before. > And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone > production that is broken, if we can track down > our blocks. And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us cannot. (Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!) > I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a > liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that > is a quite useful test for PWC. GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time. > I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the > methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as > well. Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a two- week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone while on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover I don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-inducing stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom (as well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to Greece every year!) if it proves true. Sara This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 On Jun 21, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Kurt R. wrote: > Sara, > Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that > GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and > Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few > questions > come to mind now: > > 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you > separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting? It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place. They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine items in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new things one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what. I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying. I slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when I went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA, quercetin/bromelian, testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the group, the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and away the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful, especially the ProBoost.) The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect on my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's finishing the job the Armour started. > 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH > boosting? In > other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now? I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I spent almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible brain fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was diagnosed, I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was enough that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit of volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went out anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often. Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity (my secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad school half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break.. There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before. I'm out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy when we're out for the day together. I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old son for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with my daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot), and spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think I'm going to be nearly so burned out this time. > 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention, > plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you > briefly mention the other things you are using? Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in roughly the order I added them: 1. CPAP for sleep apnea. 2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried thyroid and adrenal glands 3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes inflammation throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally 4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers 5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried endocrine system 6. ProBoost to support fried thymus 7. GSH in all its varied forms In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night, which looks something like this: Multivitamin Ester-C Extra Bs, including p5p Calcium Magnesium Fish Oil Evening Primrose Oil Flaxseed OIl L-Carnitine L-Glutamine L-Tyrosine N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine Glucosamine Alpha Lipoic Acid DMAE Kyolic ENADA Quercetin/Bromelian Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?) ......and a few other things I can't remember right now Also, most recently, I've added Recup. > 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible > challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH > again. > However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real > problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and > co-infections? I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g. congenitally) poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board to do the job. And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the toxin and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People who have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation: on one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to impair our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff, which increases our need for GSH to clear it. For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates an ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the short and long term, by reducing that deficit. > If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and > unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to > rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this > experience. But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all, when the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is the very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me that any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent the body itself relies on. There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does. Should we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the body's own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES, because that's why the liver makes it in the first place! > For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group > website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at > times > only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full > energy > again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was > Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS > pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production. Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless you're doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone would seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and* GSH? I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx anyway, but GSH helps that tremendously, too.) > But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years > of abx, and it could all come down to genetics. If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure these days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues. Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a genetic glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one of the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff like epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt that glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research. Until then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,. But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good enough. > Still, if we have ever > been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be > well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking > factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our > CFS. I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may indeed be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked around. And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be substantial as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of what I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some organ that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the damage, and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my thyroid and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas and joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being 48 will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not without complaint. Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal. After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a huge help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going to be pristine and new again like when I was 20. > 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years > (definitely have earned your veteran status). Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which makes it 22 years. > How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What was > your functional level then > and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that > is far > removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while > improving some. I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as discussed above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation, careful monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to taking even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting here. Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 What does FFC stand for, and does GSH mean " Growth Stimulating Hormone " ? Thanks in advance, Janice > > > Sara, > > Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that > > GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and > > Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few > > questions > > come to mind now: > > > > 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you > > separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting? > > It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place. > > They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine items > in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new things > one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear > whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what. > > I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last > August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start > anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying. I > slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and > strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the > effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when I > went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the > meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA, quercetin/bromelian, > testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the group, > the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and away > the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful, > especially the ProBoost.) > > The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect on > my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's finishing > the job the Armour started. > > > 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH > > boosting? In > > other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now? > > I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I spent > almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible brain > fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was diagnosed, > I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that > helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries > mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last > summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was enough > that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit of > volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went out > anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often. > > Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity (my > secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I > feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad school > half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much > margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break.. > There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before. I'm > out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend > notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy when > we're out for the day together. > > I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old son > for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with my > daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot), and > spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think I'm > going to be nearly so burned out this time. > > > 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention, > > plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you > > briefly mention the other things you are using? > > Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in roughly > the order I added them: > > 1. CPAP for sleep apnea. > 2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried thyroid > and adrenal glands > 3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes inflammation > throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally > 4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers > 5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried endocrine > system > 6. ProBoost to support fried thymus > 7. GSH in all its varied forms > > In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night, > which looks something like this: > > Multivitamin > Ester-C > Extra Bs, including p5p > Calcium > Magnesium > Fish Oil > Evening Primrose Oil > Flaxseed OIl > L-Carnitine > L-Glutamine > L-Tyrosine > N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine > Glucosamine > Alpha Lipoic Acid > DMAE > Kyolic > ENADA > Quercetin/Bromelian > Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?) > .....and a few other things I can't remember right now > > Also, most recently, I've added Recup. > > > 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible > > challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH > > again. > > However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real > > problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and > > co-infections? > > I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g. congenitally) > poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness > created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board to > do the job. > > And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the toxin > and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People who > have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this > stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of > crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation: on > one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to impair > our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also > ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff, which > increases our need for GSH to clear it. > > For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates an > ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the short > and long term, by reducing that deficit. > > > If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and > > unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to > > rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this > > experience. > > But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all, when > the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is the > very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me that > any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent the > body itself relies on. > > There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does. Should > we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the body's > own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES, > because that's why the liver makes it in the first place! > > > For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group > > website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at > > times > > only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full > > energy > > again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was > > Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS > > pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production. > > Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless you're > doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or > another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone would > seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and* GSH? > I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx anyway, > but GSH helps that tremendously, too.) > > > But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years > > of abx, and it could all come down to genetics. > > If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all > strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure these > days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues. > Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a genetic > glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one of > the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff like > epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and > testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same > enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt that > glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research. Until > then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,. > > But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good enough. > > > Still, if we have ever > > been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be > > well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking > > factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our > > CFS. > > I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may indeed > be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a > genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked around. > > And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be substantial > as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of what > I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some organ > that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of > becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the damage, > and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my thyroid > and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas and > joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is > probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being 48 > will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not > without complaint. > > Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal. > After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a huge > help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going to > be pristine and new again like when I was 20. > > > 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years > > (definitely have earned your veteran status). > > Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which > makes it 22 years. > > > How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What was > > your functional level then > > and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that > > is far > > removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while > > improving some. > > I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as discussed > above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation, careful > monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to taking > even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting here. > > Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful > stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that. > > Sara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 FFC = Fatigue and Fibromyalgia Centers (a franchise clinic system treating FM/CFS) GSH = Abbreviation for N-(N-L-gamma-glutamyl-L-cysteinyl)glycine, a.k.a. Glutathione Re: Glutathione What does FFC stand for, and does GSH mean " Growth Stimulating Hormone " ? Thanks in advance, Janice > > > Sara, > > Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that > > GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and > > Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few > > questions > > come to mind now: > > > > 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you > > separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting? > > It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place. > > They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine items > in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new things > one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear > whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what. > > I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last > August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start > anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying. I > slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and > strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the > effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when I > went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the > meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA, quercetin/bromelian, > testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the group, > the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and away > the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful, > especially the ProBoost.) > > The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect on > my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's finishing > the job the Armour started. > > > 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH > > boosting? In > > other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now? > > I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I spent > almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible brain > fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was diagnosed, > I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that > helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries > mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last > summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was enough > that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit of > volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went out > anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often. > > Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity (my > secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I > feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad school > half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much > margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break.. > There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before. I'm > out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend > notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy when > we're out for the day together. > > I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old son > for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with my > daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot), and > spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think I'm > going to be nearly so burned out this time. > > > 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention, > > plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you > > briefly mention the other things you are using? > > Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in roughly > the order I added them: > > 1. CPAP for sleep apnea. > 2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried thyroid > and adrenal glands > 3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes inflammation > throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally > 4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers > 5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried endocrine > system > 6. ProBoost to support fried thymus > 7. GSH in all its varied forms > > In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night, > which looks something like this: > > Multivitamin > Ester-C > Extra Bs, including p5p > Calcium > Magnesium > Fish Oil > Evening Primrose Oil > Flaxseed OIl > L-Carnitine > L-Glutamine > L-Tyrosine > N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine > Glucosamine > Alpha Lipoic Acid > DMAE > Kyolic > ENADA > Quercetin/Bromelian > Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?) > .....and a few other things I can't remember right now > > Also, most recently, I've added Recup. > > > 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible > > challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH > > again. > > However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real > > problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and > > co-infections? > > I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g. congenitally) > poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness > created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board to > do the job. > > And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the toxin > and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People who > have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this > stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of > crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation: on > one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to impair > our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also > ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff, which > increases our need for GSH to clear it. > > For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates an > ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the short > and long term, by reducing that deficit. > > > If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and > > unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to > > rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this > > experience. > > But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all, when > the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is the > very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me that > any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent the > body itself relies on. > > There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does. Should > we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the body's > own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES, > because that's why the liver makes it in the first place! > > > For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group > > website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at > > times > > only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full > > energy > > again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was > > Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS > > pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production. > > Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless you're > doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or > another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone would > seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and* GSH? > I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx anyway, > but GSH helps that tremendously, too.) > > > But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years > > of abx, and it could all come down to genetics. > > If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all > strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure these > days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues. > Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a genetic > glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one of > the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff like > epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and > testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same > enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt that > glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research. Until > then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,. > > But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good enough. > > > Still, if we have ever > > been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be > > well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking > > factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our > > CFS. > > I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may indeed > be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a > genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked around. > > And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be substantial > as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of what > I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some organ > that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of > becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the damage, > and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my thyroid > and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas and > joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is > probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being 48 > will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not > without complaint. > > Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal. > After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a huge > help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going to > be pristine and new again like when I was 20. > > > 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years > > (definitely have earned your veteran status). > > Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which > makes it 22 years. > > > How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What was > > your functional level then > > and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that > > is far > > removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while > > improving some. > > I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as discussed > above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation, careful > monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to taking > even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting here. > > Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful > stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that. > > Sara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 for CHRISTINE HEEREN HOW much does it cost? How long does it take?HHF glutathioneHey everyone,I'm currently in Va Beach visiting friends. We did my son's 3rd IV treatment (DMPS & EDTA) on Friday and added glutathione for the first time. I'm so amazed at his speech the last few days. He's saying things I never heard before (like "mommy is a mother, daddy is a father"). We visited my old neighbors from NY who now live in Chesapeake. They haven't seen him in a couple of years and couldn't believe the difference My one friend said "I didn't expect him to look so good- and he's talking!". They have a neighbor who is 20 and LF. My son pulled up a chair at the table and ate lunch with us- just for a few minutes- but I've never seen him do that before. Oh ya- and I was taking pictures of everyone and kept jumping into the group shot. NEVER seen anything like that from him before too.The glutathione was more money and I wasn't sure if it was going to work- but I really believe it has made a difference in just 3 days. Have any of you seen this? Anyway, I'm really excited and very hopeful.Also, Today I visited the AutismMedia.org site and showed my neighbors videoclips about autism. It really made a difference- thanks to and Autism Media!Sincerely, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 , Glutathione made a world of difference for Kolin, which combined with the MB12 injections have made so he is completely interactive and VERY verbal. He has full language usage as long as he has both, including pragmatic language. His ability to articulate his thoughts also increases as well as eye contact and ability to handle stressful situations. I am happy for you that is making such strides, congratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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