glutathione

[Guest guest]

Sue could you send me that too? I thought I had saved it cause I printed it out

and gave it to my ND and I can't find it now :-( I'd sure appreciate it!

Marcia

Re: glutathione

Hi ,

> Do I need to boost my glutathione levels? If so why is whey powder,

> which

> is rather expensive especially when shipped here to the UK, prefered

> to glutathione tablets/capsules/sublingual lozenges which are

> cheaper?

I've just e-mailed you a comprehensive post that a member of this list,

Rich V., wrote in August about ways of boosting glutathione.

Sue ,

Upstate New York

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sue,

Could you possibly just re-post it to the list? There seem to be a number

of us who saw the message and thought we saved it, but now we can't locate

it.

Thanks.

Re: glutathione

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> > Do I need to boost my glutathione levels? If so why is whey powder,

> > which

> > is rather expensive especially when shipped here to the UK, prefered

> > to glutathione tablets/capsules/sublingual lozenges which are

> > cheaper?

>

> I've just e-mailed you a comprehensive post that a member of this list,

> Rich V., wrote in August about ways of boosting glutathione.

>

> Sue ,

> Upstate New York

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

> each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , Hi Marcia

> Could you possibly just re-post it to the list? There seem to be a

> number

> of us who saw the message and thought we saved it, but now we can't

> locate

> it.

>> Sue could you send me that too? I thought I had saved it cause I

>> printed

>> it out and gave it to my ND and I can't find it now :-(

Here it is.

Sue ,

Upstate New York

=========================

Message: 5

Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:04:10 -0000

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

Subject: Ways to build up glutathione

Here is an updated version of my summary of ways to build

glutathione:

August 19, 2005

Augmenting Glutathione in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

There are several ways to augment one's glutathione. It is a good

idea to proceed slowly at first if glutathione has been depleted for

an extended period of time (months to years), because toxins and

infections may have been allowed to build up in the absence of

sufficient glutathione to keep them under control. If glutathione

is then brought up rapidly, the mobilization of toxins can produce a

Jarisch Herxheimer reaction, which is an exacerbation of symptoms

that can make a person feel very unpleasant. Also, see the

particular comments about mercury below.

Here are some approaches for building glutathione (Note that names

of products, laboratories and suppliers are given for information

only, not as recommendations. There may be others not mentioned

that are satisfactory):

1. Oral supplements, such as the " nondenatured " or " native " whey

protein products (ImmunoPro Rx or RenewPro), the " undenatured " whey

protein products (e.g. Immunocal, ImuPlus, etc.), such as from

http.//www.immunesupport.com or http://www.needs.com or

http://www.iherb.com, the fermented goat-milk-based version of whey

protein, Goatein, available from www.gardenoflifeusa.com, amino acid

precursors including N-acetylcysteine, glycine and glutamic acid

(such as from Jeff at http://www.cfsn.com), N-acetylcysteine

together with dietary protein, or reduced glutathione supplements

per se, both available from health food stores. One supplier of

oral reduced glutathione is http://www.theranaturals.com.

A relatively new oral supplement is Lipoceutical Glutathione, which

is reduced glutathione encapsulated in tiny liposomes made from soy-

based phosphatidylcholine, available from

http://www.wellnesshealth.com. This latter form is relatively

expensive, but more of the glutathione is absorbed intact and

appears to be carried to various cells of the body encapsulated in

the liposomes.

There is also another liposomal form of glutathione called LipoFlow,

available from http://www.arrowheadhealthworks.com.

No prescription is required for the above oral supplements.

ImmunoPro Rx and RenewPro are actually " native " or " nondenatured, "

being made from whey that has not been heated to high temperatures

or treated with acid as in cheese making, which the " undenatured "

products' starting material have undergone, so that they have more

cysteine present as actual cysteine per se rather than the oxidized

form cystine, and cysteine is more useable by the liver for making

glutathione, particularly in a person who is depleted in

glutathione.

The " undenatured " and " nondenatured " whey protein products can be

problematical for those with allergies to whey proteins, and the

goat-milk based version Goatein may be helpful in such cases, even

though the fermentation process likely converts much of the cysteine

to cystine. Many dairy allergies are actually sensitivities to

pasteurized milk proteins or allergies to casein, which is the part

of milk protein that goes into the curd fraction, rather than into

whey, so a dairy food allergy or sensitivity may not be an allergy

to nondenatured whey protein.

The amino acid precursors should not present problems of allergic

reactions, but should be taken with high quality dietary protein to

ensure that they are used effectively and that if mercury is

present, its transport into the brain is not encouraged. Some PWCs

do not tolerate glutamic acid well. In such cases, glutamine (or

better yet, a product called Glutimmune, available from

http://www.wellwisdom.com) can be substituted for the glutamic acid,

and taken together with N-acetylcysteine and glycine.

The reduced glutathione supplements are a more expensive approach

than the whey or NAC-based approaches. Free reduced glutathione

appears to be largely broken down in the gut into amino acids, so

there is probably not an advantage to taking regular capsules of

reduced glutathione per se except for the cells of the intestines

themselves, but Lipoceutical Glutathione is not significantly broken

down in the gut and is able to enter cells in its intact form more

easily, and LipoFlow likely behaves similarly. These latter two

products may actually be absorbed through the wall of the stomach.

Oral supplements are probably the best way to raise the glutathione

level in the liver, since the liver gets first access to oral

supplements via the portal vein, and it is normally the main

producer of glutathione in the body and an exporter of glutathione

to the systemic blood and the bile. The liver is probably not able

to take glutathione from the blood for its own use, so approaches

that put glutathione per se into the blood probably are not very

helpful in directly building glutathione in the liver.

If there is a high level of mercury in the body, such as can occur

if glutathione has been low for an extended period of time (months

to years) and the person either has silver amalgam fillings in their

teeth or they have consumed a significant amount of large, predatory

fish, including tuna, then caution should be exercised by limiting

the dosages of oral supplements that supply amino acids to the liver

for making glutathione. There are two reasons for this:

The first is that mercury can be moved into the brain from other

parts of the body by cysteine or N-acetylcysteine if the dosages are

too high. Dr. Quig of Doctors Data Laboratories recommends

limiting the dosage of NAC to 300 mg per day and taking it with a

high protein diet if heavy metals are elevated.

The second reason is that mercury can block the utilization of

cysteine, and if cysteine rises too high, it can act as a

neurotoxin. (This last is also the reason L-cysteine is not

recommended as a supplement for building glutathione.) It's a good

idea to measure the blood plasma level of cysteine periodically when

building glutathione, to make sure it is not rising too high.

If elevated mercury is suspected, it is a good idea to test for

mercury and detox it carefully if it is present, with the help of a

doctor experienced in doing this. The best test is a collection of

urine for 6 hours, preceded by a challenge with the chelator DMSA

(succimer). A very small dosage of DMSA should be tried first, to

make sure there is not an allergic reaction to it. A test of this

type is offered as a Toxic Metals Panel by

http://www.doctorsdata.com.

If there is elevated mercury, it may also be wise to begin building

glutathione using one of the approaches below, which put glutathione

per se into the blood, rather than one of the oral approaches that

help the liver to make glutathione. This may help to remove the

mercury more " gently, " starting with the kidneys, which absorb most

of the glutathione put directly into the blood.

2. Intramuscular injections, as pioneered by Dr. Salvato in

Houston. She injects 100 mg of glutathione with 1 mg of ATP,

intramuscularly, 2 times per week. One source of IM glutathione is

McGuff Compounding Pharmacy in Santa Ana, CA (phone: (877)444-1133,

fax: (877)444-1155). This probably benefits most the muscle into

which it is injected, but it is also reported to have systemic

effects.

3. Intravenous injections, and particularly fast I.V. pushes, as

advocated and used by Dr. Kane and her co-authors of The

Detoxx Book (www.detoxxbook.com) as part of their overall detox

protocol. The book says they do an I.V. push over 3 to 5 minutes

starting with 1,500 mg of glutathione in 12 cc of sterile water for

adults, and going as high as 2,500 mg in 15 cc of sterile water, one

to two time per week for 3 to 6 months or more. They suggest

Wellness Health and Pharmaceuticals in Birmingham, AL as the source

for injectable reduced glutathione (phone: (800)227-2627, fax: (205)

879-6551).

Intravenous glutathione injections seem to be becoming more

prevalent. I think they were pioneered in the U.S. by Dr.

Perlmutter (after initial work in Italy by Dr. Secchi) for the

treatment of Parkinson's disease, but they are being used in other

disorders as well. Several cell types are able to extract

glutathione from the blood, break it down, import the pieces, and

resynthesize it inside the cell, via the gamma glutamyl cycle.

Other types of cells can import glutathione intact from the blood.

This approach requires a visit to a doctor's office, and it is

relatively expensive to get these injections repeatedly.

4. Glutathione suppositories from a compounding pharmacy. One source

is Hopewell Pharmacy in New Jersey (phone: (800)792-6670). One

person told me they use suppositories containing 250 mg of

glutathione. Another told me that they are also available in 500 mg

doses from http://www.wellnesshealth.com. I don't know how much

gets into the blood with this method, but I suspect that it is

substantial. This is a relatively inexpensive way to put

glutathione into the blood. I think a prescription is required for

this form.

5. Glutathione nasal spray. I've heard of people formulating their

own by mixing glutathione solution from compounding pharmacies with

saline solution. I don't know how much glutathione is absorbed into

the blood this way, but I suspect it is less than with the

suppositories. It's important to keep the solution refrigerated and

to use it soon after it is mixed, because the reduced glutathione

undergoes chemical changes over time in solution.

6. Glutathione transdermal skin creams (available from

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com) (no prescription required). Lotions are

also sold. These may have a strong smell. A stabilized reduced

glutathione transdermal gel is available from

http://www.leesilsby.com. I don't know how much of the glutathione

gets into the blood with these products.

7. Glutathione sublingual troches from a compounding pharmacy. One

source is Lionville Natural Pharmacy in Lionville, PA (phone: (877)

363-7474, fax: (610)363-5707) These are made in orange and blueberry

flavors, and are composed of a very firm gel. There are also hard

troches in orange flavor. I don't know how much gets into the

blood.

8. Nebulizer application to the lungs, as pioneered by Dr. Buhl et

al. at the NIH and as described by Dr. n Whitaker in his

newsletter Health and Healing. Dr. Buhl used 600 mg in a few

milliliters of water per application. Dr. Whitaker uses 300 mg, two

times per day, applied over 5 to 10 minutes with a nebulizer,

available from a medical supply company. He recommends Wellness

Health and Pharmaceuticals (numbers given above) and California

Pharmacy and Compounding Center (http://www.californiapharmacy.com)

as sources for the glutathione. Nebulized glutathione is being used

for a variety of lung diseases now, including chronic obstructive

pulmonary disease (COPD), cystic fibrosis, interstitial pulmonary

fibrosis and multiple chemical sensitivity. There are reports that

quite a bit gets into the blood using this approach.

Hudson, who has helped to pioneer use of aerosol glutathione in

cystic fibrosis, suggests L-Glutathione Plus capsules from

http://www.theranaturals.com, mixed with boiled water, applied with

a nebulizer. No prescription is required for the capsules, and it

may also be possible to get a nebulizer without a prescription.

suggests one capsule containing 200 mg of reduced

glutathione mixed into 3 or 4 ml of boiled water. An important

feature of this source of glutathione (available without a

prescription) is that it is buffered with sodium bicarbonate.

Bishop, M.D., wrote me that this buffering is important, because if

the pH is too acid, it can lead to bronchospasm when nebulizing.

People who are subject to asthmatic attacks should not use nebulized

glutathione, as it can result in bronchospasm, thought to be caused

by the sulfites that form when glutathione is mixed with water.

It's also very important in nebulizing to use pure, boiled or

sterile water, and a clean nebulizer in order to prevent introducing

infections or respirable particulates into the lungs. Because of

these issues, nebulizing is best done under the supervision of a

doctor or a respiratory therapist.

9. Take turmeric (the yellow spice in mustard and in food eaten in

India). The curcumin in this spice has been shown to stimulate

glutathione production.

Some people are using more than one of these modes simultaneously.

My current opinion is that it is a good idea to start at low dosages

to see how well it is tolerated, and then work up as it is

tolerated. I think that a combination of an oral approach to build

the liver's ability to make glutathione combined with one or more of

the approaches that puts intact glutathione into the blood is

probably the optimum way to build glutathione.

It is a good idea to measure the glutathione level before starting

to try to build glutathione to see if it is low, and then, if it is

low, to measure again after trying to build it for a few months, to

see how your approach is working. There are several ways to do

this. Probably the cheapest is to measure the red blood cell

glutathione. Two labs that offer this test are Immunosciences Lab

(www.immuno-sci-lab.com) and Amscot Medical Labs

(midwest5@...). Great Smokies Diagnostic Lab (www.gsdl.com)

offers an assessment of the glutathione detoxification pathway in

its Comprehensive Detox panel. An analysis of urinary organic acids

by either www.greatplainslaboratory.com or www.metametrix.com will

give an indirect assessment of glutathione status, particularly in

the skeletal muscles (via citric acid and alpha ketoglutaric acid

measurements) and the kidneys (via pyroglutamic acid aka 5-oxo-

proline measurement). A measurement of glutathione function in the

lymphocytes is offered by www.spectracell.com. I favor the

Spectracell test if a person can afford it. Otherwise, the red

blood cell test is still useful.

It's also a good idea to measure the blood plasma level of cysteine

periodically when building glutathione, to make sure it is not

rising too high. If a person is high in mercury, this can block the

pathways that use cysteine, and it can build up.

In the future, I hope that studies will be done of genetic

variations in CFS that may be behind the tendency toward glutathione

depletion. Such genetic variations have been found in autism

If anyone reading this finds errors or knows of things that have

been left out, please let me know at richvank@.... Thank you.

Rich Van Konynenburg

[Guest guest]

>

> Here it is.

>

> Sue ,

> Upstate New York

> =========================

> Message: 5

> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:04:10 -0000

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

> Subject: Ways to build up glutathione

>

> Here is an updated version of my summary of ways to build

> glutathione:

>

>

> August 19, 2005

>

> Augmenting Glutathione in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

>

> There are several ways to augment one's glutathione. > If anyone

reading this finds errors or knows of things that have

> been left out, please let me know at richvank@a... Thank you.

>

> Rich Van Konynenburg

Hi Sue, Rich & all,

I have read that Avocados are high in Glutathione.

Selenium is reported to recycle glutathione. *

Source Naturals makes a sublingual Glutathione.

Milk Thistle affects glutathione . *

Al

Ref: *based on Google Searches of key words.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:09:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

MiaNova00@... writes:

Question about the Gutathione:

I might be mistaken, but I thought that taking Glutathione itself was

useless, because the body won't process it right that way? I was under the

impression that you were supposed to take L-glutamine, and the body converts

that to Glutathione?

================

The problem with glutathione is that it is poorly absorbed. To overcome the

small percentage that is absorbed it has to be given in larger concentration

or given as its pre-cursor l-cystine.

Both glutathione and l-cystine are contained in the three supplements

Immunoprop, Immunocal and Immunopro. The glutathione and l-cystine levels are

highest in Immunoprop.

Joy

Research assistant to Dr Enlander

_www.enlander.com_ (http://www.enlander.com/)

[Guest guest]

Whey Protein provides the precursors to build Glutathione.

regards

Cs

[Guest guest]

I would read the Pangloss book mentioned in recent days to really

understand the rate-limiting steps leading up to glutathione

synthesis. You can take certain supplements to increase your

glutathione by adding in supplements that make up for your own

glitches on the pathways to glutathione (sulfur pathways). Some do

well on the immunocal/immunepro and others have a tough time (I can't

stand such whey derivatives and do badly on them). Wellness pharmacy

makes a liposomal glutathione, they have taken out the glycerin and

reduced the price and anecdotal reports show that this protects it

from degradation by stomach acid and since liposomes are

preferentially taken up by cells, it is likely to be getting into the

cells--and clinical response esp. from cystic fibrosis kids seems to

be good. YOu can also supplement it IV which I do and find very excellent.

>

> In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:09:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> MiaNova00@a... writes:

>

> Question about the Gutathione:

>

> I might be mistaken, but I thought that taking Glutathione itself was

> useless, because the body won't process it right that way? I was

under the

> impression that you were supposed to take L-glutamine, and the body

converts

> that to Glutathione?

> ================

>

> The problem with glutathione is that it is poorly absorbed. To

overcome the

> small percentage that is absorbed it has to be given in larger

concentration

> or given as its pre-cursor l-cystine.

> Both glutathione and l-cystine are contained in the three supplements

> Immunoprop, Immunocal and Immunopro. The glutathione and l-cystine

levels are

> highest in Immunoprop.

>

> Joy

> Research assistant to Dr Enlander

> _www.enlander.com_ (http://www.enlander.com/)

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On May 20, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Dirk Coetsee wrote:

> Hi!

>

> I was going to buy some liposomal GSH. I was wondering if anybody

> knew of a

> cheaper form I could take it in (not whey).

This is a very new product, Dirk. It's the first oral glutathione

that actually works; and it's been on the market less than a year.

So, no, you're not going to find it any cheaper.

Your only other option is whey protein. Don't bother with the

supplement pills; the stuff disintegrates in your mouth and stomach

before it can be absorbed. That's why it has to be put into liposomes

(which is not a cheap process for any drug).

Sara

[Guest guest]

Hi All

After having CFS for over 15 years I have found a

product that has helped immensely.

I take a teaspoon in the morning and in the evening of

Extreme Performance Plus Glutathione.

I've had more energy. It's worth the money.

--- wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

,

I tried to find this. Who makes it??? Do you have a website???

Thank you for your help.

Janet

in SAn Diego

maria tassios <mariatassios2@...> wrote:

Hi All

After having CFS for over 15 years I have found a

product that has helped immensely.

I take a teaspoon in the morning and in the evening of

Extreme Performance Plus Glutathione.

I've had more energy. It's worth the money.

--- wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

,

I tried to find this product. Who makes it??? Do you have a website I can

order from??? How do you get it???

Thank you,

Janet

in San Diego

mariatassios2 <mariatassios2@...> wrote:

Janet

I have tried the Extreme Performance glutathione with marvelous

results.

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:13 AM, rvankonynen wrote:

> How does the cell-mediated immune response become suppressed? I

> think it is another result of the depletion of glutathione. I think

> it is likely that your glutathione has become depleted, as a result

> of the exposure to the variety of toxins you reported earlier.

> And quite a few PWCs (people with CFS) have found that trying to

> build glutathione by the direct approach of supplementing it or

> getting injections or consuming whey protein products or N-

> acetylcysteine is not sufficient to restore it to normal.

As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major

glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but

conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it

because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs

insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job.

Having the extra glutathione in my system has rolled back a

tremendous number of my CFS symptoms. My brain works. Most of the

secondary infections -- including the near-constant candida-related

scalp and female issues -- have cleared up. There's good reason to

believe that I'm gradually chelating out a big load of long-stored

heavy metals. And several of my organ systems (including my heart,

which I'm increasingly convinced is my core issue, and which is about

the only thing that doesn't seem to be on a long-term uptrend) are

noticeably more functional. I can't imagine life without it.

But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just

going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some

significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan.

That's more than reason enough to do it.

Somebody (kdbrill?) started on whey powder today and is feeling

miserable. Welcome to the club. I felt really horrible for the first

three days after my first GSH dose, and generally crappy for about

the next two weeks. But, at the same time, there was a growing sense

that something good was happening, especially on the neurological

front. It felt like a flu; but after those first few days, parts of

me felt better than I had in years.

So I stuck with it, and encourage you to stick with it, too. GSH

absolutely does cause herxing, especially if you've got decades of

animal, vegetable, and mineral crud to move out. Clear your schedule

and try to ride it out, if you can. If you can't, drop your dosage

until the symptoms fall off to a manageable level. In the meantime,

eat well, drink lots, and do whatever you can to cleanse your system

and stimulate your immune system to handle the increased load. (I was

put on ProBoost the same day I started the GSH, which I believe

helped quite a bit.) And stay the hell away from the Tylenol -- there

are few things that deplete GSH in the body faster than

acetominiphen. If you must, go for aspirin or ibuprofen instead.

As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem

really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them.

Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the

handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd

all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long

while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you

through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has

proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support

money can buy.

Sara

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Mercuria

S

As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem

really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them.

**** Really ? I haven't noticed this at all. What makes you say this

?

Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the

handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd

all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long

while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you

through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has

proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support

money can buy.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sara> As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major

glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but

conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it

because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs

insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job.

I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor

for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to diabetics.

A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of ‘glutathione

diabetes.’ How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful

negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added

several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and this

time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem

with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has been

saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results.

Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work

for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different

hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to supplement

with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by

itself. After each item I will describe the theory of how this helps

the glutathione levels.

* Salt/C – the C may be recycling glutathione (6-12g daily of C), and

the salt may be reducing dysbiosis and thus reducing biotoxin load and

freeing some glutathione (4-6g daily of natural unprocessed sea salt –

salt kills most gram negative bacteria in the gut but does not harm the

friendly flora).

* Molybdenum – supports the glutathione pathway

* Modifilan – powerful toxin-binding seaweed extract, used after

Chernobyl to pull out uranium, helps reduce circulating mercury levels,

thus freeing liver enzymes that otherwise would be blocked.

* EDTA – pull out metals, possibly including mercury (2 weeks on, 2

weeks off, oral supplement 500mg)

* Vitamins E, A, and Selenium – support glutathione production

(precursors)

* Meditation, skilled relaxation, emotional processing – reduce my

stress response and therefore raise glutathione. I believe this is very

important since research shows that a stress and/or fight/flight

response depletes glutathione. So if you are an ‘auto-stressor’

personality, or have continual emotional upsets, you are lowering your

own glutathione levels even further.

* Pre-emptive resting – build-up glutathione and also adrenals prior to

exertion, lowers post-exertion problems.

* Staying in the energy envelope – a tightly controlled daily routine,

bedtimes, etc., tracking and managing stress and energy load, much as a

diabetic must track glucose load.

* Proline/Lysine and other herbal antivirals/abx – keep the pathogen

activity under control to avoid more depletion of glutathione. Probably

as we detox and build glutathione the immune will work better against

most bugs, but I still take supplements to kill them now and then.

* EMF avoidance and blocking – EMF exposure, particularly cell phones,

cell towers, and other microwave signals, appears to cause a type of

distress that depletes glutathione (anecdotal based on personal

experience).

* Detox support – I am using ‘Ultimate Cleanse’ and there are many other

good herbal cleansing therapies. I believe this is essential in

reducing the discomfort from the detox effects of the rising GSH. Also,

if we have been GSH depleted for years, even decades, we have quite a

toxin backlog to remove.

* Mold avoidance and mold-free living – this helps reduce additional

drains on the detox system as mold appears to shut-down part of the

detox capacity. Probably having mold exposure and the resulting

biological melt-down of the lowered MSH levels further depletes

glutathione as it would lead to a spike in toxin levels.

* Epsom salt baths and magnesium sulfate crème (transdermal) – support

the later part of the sulfur cycle.

* Lots of systemic and digestive enzymes – lower the load of

partially-digested proteins and therefore lower any food allergies, etc.

Probably this indirectly supports glutathione status.

After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work

for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary

adjunct therapies.

There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now this

is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments,

many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can all

be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a revelation to

me. So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

about this illness. But of course, there are probably other subsets in

CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be

separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs,

but probably those are helped by GSH building.

AS far as Sara’s comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be

true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a nearly

ordinary life again. I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible

for many of us, if not most of us… And unlike diabetics, we seem able

to restore the hormone production that is broken, if we can track down

our blocks. I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that

is a quite useful test for PWC.

I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the

methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as well.

--Kurt

Re: Glutathione

On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:13 AM, rvankonynen wrote:

> How does the cell-mediated immune response become suppressed? I

> think it is another result of the depletion of glutathione. I think

> it is likely that your glutathione has become depleted, as a result

> of the exposure to the variety of toxins you reported earlier.

> And quite a few PWCs (people with CFS) have found that trying to

> build glutathione by the direct approach of supplementing it or

> getting injections or consuming whey protein products or N-

> acetylcysteine is not sufficient to restore it to normal.

As one of these people, I'd just like to second this. I'm a major

glutathione junkie (I ingest, inject, and imbibe it), but

conceptually, it's like CFS insulin. I need to supplement with it

because my liver doesn't produce it, just like a diabetic needs

insulin because his or her pancreas is no longer on the job.

Having the extra glutathione in my system has rolled back a

tremendous number of my CFS symptoms. My brain works. Most of the

secondary infections -- including the near-constant candida-related

scalp and female issues -- have cleared up. There's good reason to

believe that I'm gradually chelating out a big load of long-stored

heavy metals. And several of my organ systems (including my heart,

which I'm increasingly convinced is my core issue, and which is about

the only thing that doesn't seem to be on a long-term uptrend) are

noticeably more functional. I can't imagine life without it.

But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just

going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some

significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan.

That's more than reason enough to do it.

Somebody (kdbrill?) started on whey powder today and is feeling

miserable. Welcome to the club. I felt really horrible for the first

three days after my first GSH dose, and generally crappy for about

the next two weeks. But, at the same time, there was a growing sense

that something good was happening, especially on the neurological

front. It felt like a flu; but after those first few days, parts of

me felt better than I had in years.

So I stuck with it, and encourage you to stick with it, too. GSH

absolutely does cause herxing, especially if you've got decades of

animal, vegetable, and mineral crud to move out. Clear your schedule

and try to ride it out, if you can. If you can't, drop your dosage

until the symptoms fall off to a manageable level. In the meantime,

eat well, drink lots, and do whatever you can to cleanse your system

and stimulate your immune system to handle the increased load. (I was

put on ProBoost the same day I started the GSH, which I believe

helped quite a bit.) And stay the hell away from the Tylenol -- there

are few things that deplete GSH in the body faster than

acetominiphen. If you must, go for aspirin or ibuprofen instead.

As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem

really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them.

Remember, gang: almost nobody ever gets over CFS; and even the

handful who do can't usually tell you why. If a cure existed, we'd

all be on it by now. But it doesn't yet, and may not for a long

while. In the meantime, be grateful for anything that gets you

through until that day arrives. For me and many others, GSH has

proven to be the best, most comprehensive day-to-day systemic support

money can buy.

Sara

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 19/06/2006 22:44:02 GMT Standard Time,

mercuria@... writes:

But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just

going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some

significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan.

That's more than reason enough to do it.

*** I think youll need to add other supps - to reverse other issues.

regards

CS

[Guest guest]

On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Kurt R. wrote:

> I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor

> for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to

> diabetics.

> A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of ‘glutathione

> diabetes.’ How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

>

> I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful

> negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added

> several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and

> this

> time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem

> with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has

> been

> saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

> glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results.

>

> Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work

> for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different

> hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to

> supplement

> with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by

> itself.

Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we (meaning

Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the system

works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And it's

starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff

involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've been

sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained irreversible

damage.

In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround. Exogenous

GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to thinking

I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred other

things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party, because

I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not going to

sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20 years.

I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list would

certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say, I

probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I hadn't

been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first.

> After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work

> for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary

> adjunct therapies.

I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended

supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty impressive.

His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the

observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the next,

unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily with

the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and

forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized that

there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed closed.

It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP) blocking my

methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm not

yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using exogenous

forms of glutathione instead.

> There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now

> this

> is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments,

> many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can

> all

> be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a

> revelation to

> me.

Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's recent

announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the stuff

Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's heart

hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by other

doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment links

into GSH in one way or another.

> So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

> about this illness. But of course, there are probably other

> subsets in

> CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be

> separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs,

> but probably those are helped by GSH building.

You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body to

handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme,

mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced blood

volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the heart

issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart

muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it.

Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody will

chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so long

now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on line.

On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce toxin

load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little I've

got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it.

> AS far as Sara’s comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be

> true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a

> nearly

> ordinary life again.

I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM, brain

fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used to

dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as

normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be) if I

could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only thing

left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as the

rest of me continues to get better.

GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose, I

could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go into

palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But I'm

still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a

minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible family

history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart

failure, this is not a good sign.

(I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a new

assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious for

misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let alone

" boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm falling

through that crack.)

> I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if

> not most of us…

I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of people

here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not with

anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for is

safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore most

of what we had before.

> And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone

> production that is broken, if we can track down

> our blocks.

And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us cannot.

(Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The

current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!)

> I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

> liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that

> is a quite useful test for PWC.

GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time.

> I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the

> methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as

> well.

Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a two-

week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone while

on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover I

don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-inducing

stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom (as

well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to Greece

every year!) if it proves true.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:41 PM, wrote:

> As a general note, I find that a lot of people on this list seem

> really focused on finding the magic bullet that will cure them.

>

> **** Really ? I haven't noticed this at all. What makes you say

> this

> ?

The half-dozen times I've gotten cranky (or worse) e-mails about

various incremental steps I've taken along the way -- all in the

theme of, " Why bother doing X? It's a waste of time. I'd rather focus

on a CURE! "

There have been a few people here who earnestly believe that if it's

not eliminating the root causes, it's not worth our time or money. I

do keep hearing from them, to the point where I'm feeling a bit

defensive about advocating incremental steps that may only increase

functionality and comfort.

Coming straight out and saying that mere functionality and comfort

are the best that 95% of us can ever hope for feels a bit like taping

a target to my head.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jun 19, 2006, at 10:57 PM, bhammanuk@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 19/06/2006 22:44:02 GMT Standard Time,

> mercuria@... writes:

>

> But I also don't believe that it's going to " cure " me. It's just

> going to make the disease a lot easier to live with, and add some

> significant quality (and perhaps quantity) to my remaining lifespan.

> That's more than reason enough to do it.

>

>

> *** I think youll need to add other supps - to reverse other issues.

Ya think?

I give up.

Sara

(whose list of other supplements is literally fifty items long)

[Guest guest]

I agree with you completely, Sara. Maybe that understanding

comes only after many years of illness. And maybe those of

us who are sicker find life almost intolerable without some

relief.

So we settle for less than a cure.

Kath J. F.

Re: Re: Glutathione

There have been a few people here who earnestly believe that

if it's

not eliminating the root causes, it's not worth our time or

money. I

do keep hearing from them, to the point where I'm feeling a

bit

defensive about advocating incremental steps that may only

increase

functionality and comfort.

Coming straight out and saying that mere functionality and

comfort

are the best that 95% of us can ever hope for feels a bit

like taping

a target to my head.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that

GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and

Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few questions

come to mind now:

1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you

separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting?

2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH boosting? In

other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now?

3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention,

plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you

briefly mention the other things you are using?

4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible

challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH again.

However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real

problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and

co-infections? If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and

unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to

rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this

experience. For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group

website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at times

only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full energy

again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was

Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS

pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production.

But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years

of abx, and it could all come down to genetics. Still, if we have ever

been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be

well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking

factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our

CFS.

5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years

(definitely have earned your veteran status). How bad was your CFS at

its worst, and how bad is it now? What was your functional level then

and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that is far

removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while

improving some.

--Kurt

Re: Re: Glutathione

On Jun 19, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Kurt R. wrote:

> I agree, and even have also been thinking about the diabetes metaphor

> for some time now, how glutathione is to CFS as insulin is to

> diabetics.

> A VERY apt metaphor I think. As if CFS is a type of 'glutathione

> diabetes.' How about Type G Diabetes :-)?

>

> I have tried whey protein several times, and had such a powerful

> negative response that I had to stop. In the mean while I have added

> several new treatments, and have just started using whey again and

> this

> time it is working, in fact significantly. I believe that the problem

> with just using whey is that the GSH issue is complex. As Rich has

> been

> saying repeatedly now, we have bio-individual blockages in the

> glutathione pathway and a type of vicious circle effect results.

>

> Here is what I have had to add to finally get the whey protein to work

> for me, hopefully building GSH finally. Each of these has a different

> hypothetical effect on the GSH production. My goal is not to

> supplement

> with glutathione directly, but to help my body produce GSH again by

> itself.

Ah, that does seem to be the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, we (meaning

Rich, mostly) are only now beginning to understand how the system

works in enough detail to guess about how that might happen. And it's

starting to become evident that there's a lot of genetic stuff

involved that may simply not be curable -- especially if you've been

sick a long time, and your organs have also sustained irreversible

damage.

In that context, any " cure " will at best be a workaround. Exogenous

GSH is one very promising work-around. But if I ever get to thinking

I'll ever lead a 100% " normal " life without it (and the hundred other

things I do to sustain health), somebody send a search party, because

I'll be living in la-la land. It could happen -- but I'm not going to

sit by and wait for the day. Been there, done that, lost 20 years.

I do variants of most of the stuff on your list -- my own list would

certainly be at least as long, if not longer. And, as you say, I

probably wouldn't have handled the GSH nearly as well if I hadn't

been working up to it for years on all these other fronts first.

> After ALL of this, the Whey is now working. So if whey does not work

> for a PWC, they may need to go to work finding blocks and necessary

> adjunct therapies.

I don't know if you've seen Rich's sequence of recommended

supplements for unblocking methylation, but it's pretty impressive.

His notion that these blocks may be genetic proceeded from the

observation that some of us couldn't just move from one to the next,

unlocking the doors in sequence. Some of the doors opened easily with

the right chemical key; others stubbornly refused to budge (and

forcing it made us worse). On further investigation, he realized that

there were specific genetic reasons these certain doors stayed closed.

It appears that I've got a big fat genetic anomaly (SNP) blocking my

methylation channel. If there's a way to re-engineer that, I'm not

yet aware of it. So I do an end-run around it, by using exogenous

forms of glutathione instead.

> There are probably many more things that could be done, but for now

> this

> is helping me make progress. The realization that these treatments,

> many of which I discovered independently of the GSH hypothesis, can

> all

> be connected to the support of GSH levels has been quite a

> revelation to

> me.

Everything seems to tie back into it somehow -- from the CDC's recent

announcement on gene anomalies (which was right alongside the stuff

Rich was already figuring out on his own), to Dr. Cheney's heart

hypothesis, to various viral and hormonal approaches used by other

doctors. Dig deep enough -- and every symptom, every treatment links

into GSH in one way or another.

> So nice to have a common thread, a way to organize my thinking

> about this illness. But of course, there are probably other

> subsets in

> CFS, other issues that will not respond to GSH building, and must be

> separately treated, such as hypercoag, adrenal problems and Lyme/Babs,

> but probably those are helped by GSH building.

You got it. GSH is key to immune function. It enables the body to

handle -- and possibly render harmless -- stuff like Lyme,

mycoplasma, and so on. Hypercoagulation relates to reduced blood

volume and poor microcirculation, which brings us back to the heart

issues, which are remedied by adequate GSH levels in the heart

muscle. Like I said: all roads lead back to it.

Adrenal problems may be an exception. (Or not. I'm sure somebody will

chime in with the link.) My adrenals have been so shot for so long

now that there's scant hope of ever bringing them fully back on line.

On the other hand, GSH does restore circulation and reduce toxin

load, which ensures that I'll make the very best of what little I've

got, and avoid further damage in the bargain. I'll take it.

> AS far as Sara's comment that nobody gets cured from CFS, that may be

> true, but many people have put CFS into remission, and can live a

> nearly

> ordinary life again.

I'm one of them. I've conquered sleep problems, allergies, FM, brain

fog, organ damage, and secondary infections -- all of which used to

dog me in my worst years. I'd be damn near normal now (well, as

normal as someone who's taking several dozen drugs a day can be) if I

could get my post-exertional malaise to go away. It's the only thing

left -- and it's getting progressively worse over time, even as the

rest of me continues to get better.

GSH is even helping some with this. Day to day, as my GSH rose, I

could feel my heart working relaxed and steady, less ready to go into

palpitations. It's more comfortable and happy in my chest. But I'm

still wiped out if I take it much over 120 bpm, even for half a

minute -- and that's not getting better. Given my horrible family

history of early death due to virally-induced congestive heart

failure, this is not a good sign.

(I'm still badgering my doctors on this -- am gearing up for a new

assault when I get back from Greece. But doctors are notorious for

misdiagnosing even common forms of heart disease in women, let alone

" boutique " ones like our diastolic issues. I'm afraid I'm falling

through that crack.)

> I believe that is a worthy goal and is possible for many of us, if

> not most of us.

I agree. But it's not a CURE, which seems to be what a lot of people

here are holding out for. We're not going to be cured -- not with

anything currently available, anyway. The best we can hope for is

safe, sane, personally-tuned management strategies that restore most

of what we had before.

> And unlike diabetics, we seem able to restore the hormone

> production that is broken, if we can track down

> our blocks.

And fix them -- which some of us can do, but others of us cannot.

(Not, at least, until we get better at genetic engineering. The

current US bans on stem cell research are hurting US, people!)

> I have not had the genetic testing yet, but did have a

> liver function test that suggested the mercury block, and I think that

> is a quite useful test for PWC.

GSH will go a long way toward moving the mercury out, given time.

> I am also trying-out some of the Kirkman products for supporting the

> methylation cycle. And plan to add lipo glutathione eventually as

> well.

Lipo is great stuff. So great, in fact, that I'm about to do a two-

week test: going off the injections and relying on lipo alone while

on a high-stress trip. It seems very possible that I'll discover I

don't need the injections at all, even in the face of crash-inducing

stress. Which will make me happy from the bottom of my bottom (as

well as my wallet -- with the cost savings, I could go to Greece

every year!) if it proves true.

Sara

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

On Jun 21, 2006, at 8:26 AM, Kurt R. wrote:

> Sara,

> Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear that

> GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS and

> Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few

> questions

> come to mind now:

>

> 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you

> separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH boosting?

It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place.

They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine items

in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new things

one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear

whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what.

I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last

August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start

anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying. I

slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and

strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the

effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when I

went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the

meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA, quercetin/bromelian,

testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the group,

the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and away

the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful,

especially the ProBoost.)

The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect on

my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's finishing

the job the Armour started.

> 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH

> boosting? In

> other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is it now?

I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I spent

almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible brain

fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was diagnosed,

I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that

helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries

mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last

summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was enough

that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit of

volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went out

anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often.

Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity (my

secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I

feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad school

half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much

margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break..

There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before. I'm

out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend

notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy when

we're out for the day together.

I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old son

for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with my

daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot), and

spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think I'm

going to be nearly so burned out this time.

> 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I mention,

> plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could you

> briefly mention the other things you are using?

Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in roughly

the order I added them:

1. CPAP for sleep apnea.

2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried thyroid

and adrenal glands

3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes inflammation

throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally

4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers

5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried endocrine

system

6. ProBoost to support fried thymus

7. GSH in all its varied forms

In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night,

which looks something like this:

Multivitamin

Ester-C

Extra Bs, including p5p

Calcium

Magnesium

Fish Oil

Evening Primrose Oil

Flaxseed OIl

L-Carnitine

L-Glutamine

L-Tyrosine

N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine

Glucosamine

Alpha Lipoic Acid

DMAE

Kyolic

ENADA

Quercetin/Bromelian

Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?)

......and a few other things I can't remember right now

Also, most recently, I've added Recup.

> 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the possible

> challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate GSH

> again.

> However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the real

> problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and

> co-infections?

I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g. congenitally)

poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness

created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board to

do the job.

And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the toxin

and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People who

have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this

stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of

crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation: on

one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to impair

our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also

ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff, which

increases our need for GSH to clear it.

For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates an

ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the short

and long term, by reducing that deficit.

> If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and

> unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be able to

> rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this

> experience.

But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all, when

the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is the

very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me that

any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent the

body itself relies on.

There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does. Should

we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the body's

own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES,

because that's why the liver makes it in the first place!

> For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group

> website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and at

> times

> only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has full

> energy

> again and walks for miles without problems, and her major therapy was

> Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS

> pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH production.

Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless you're

doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or

another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone would

seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and* GSH?

I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx anyway,

but GSH helps that tremendously, too.)

> But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after years

> of abx, and it could all come down to genetics.

If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all

strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure these

days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues.

Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a genetic

glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one of

the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff like

epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and

testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same

enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt that

glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research. Until

then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,.

But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good enough.

> Still, if we have ever

> been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we can be

> well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the blocking

> factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology in our

> CFS.

I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may indeed

be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a

genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked around.

And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be substantial

as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of what

I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some organ

that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of

becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the damage,

and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my thyroid

and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas and

joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is

probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being 48

will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not

without complaint.

Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal.

After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a huge

help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going to

be pristine and new again like when I was 20.

> 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years

> (definitely have earned your veteran status).

Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which

makes it 22 years.

> How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What was

> your functional level then

> and now? You say you are going on international trips now, that

> is far

> removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while

> improving some.

I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as discussed

above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation, careful

monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to taking

even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting here.

Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful

stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that.

Sara

[Guest guest]

What does FFC stand for, and does GSH mean " Growth Stimulating

Hormone " ? Thanks in advance,

Janice

>

> > Sara,

> > Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear

that

> > GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS

and

> > Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few

> > questions

> > come to mind now:

> >

> > 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you

> > separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH

boosting?

>

> It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place.

>

> They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine

items

> in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new

things

> one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear

> whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what.

>

> I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last

> August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start

> anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying.

I

> slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and

> strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the

> effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when

I

> went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the

> meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA,

quercetin/bromelian,

> testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the

group,

> the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and

away

> the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful,

> especially the ProBoost.)

>

> The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect

on

> my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's

finishing

> the job the Armour started.

>

> > 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH

> > boosting? In

> > other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is

it now?

>

> I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I

spent

> almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible

brain

> fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was

diagnosed,

> I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that

> helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries

> mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last

> summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was

enough

> that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit

of

> volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went

out

> anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often.

>

> Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity

(my

> secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I

> feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad

school

> half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much

> margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break..

> There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before.

I'm

> out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend

> notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy

when

> we're out for the day together.

>

> I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old

son

> for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with

my

> daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot),

and

> spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think

I'm

> going to be nearly so burned out this time.

>

> > 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I

mention,

> > plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could

you

> > briefly mention the other things you are using?

>

> Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in

roughly

> the order I added them:

>

> 1. CPAP for sleep apnea.

> 2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried

thyroid

> and adrenal glands

> 3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes

inflammation

> throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally

> 4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers

> 5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried

endocrine

> system

> 6. ProBoost to support fried thymus

> 7. GSH in all its varied forms

>

> In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night,

> which looks something like this:

>

> Multivitamin

> Ester-C

> Extra Bs, including p5p

> Calcium

> Magnesium

> Fish Oil

> Evening Primrose Oil

> Flaxseed OIl

> L-Carnitine

> L-Glutamine

> L-Tyrosine

> N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine

> Glucosamine

> Alpha Lipoic Acid

> DMAE

> Kyolic

> ENADA

> Quercetin/Bromelian

> Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?)

> .....and a few other things I can't remember right now

>

> Also, most recently, I've added Recup.

>

> > 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the

possible

> > challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate

GSH

> > again.

> > However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the

real

> > problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and

> > co-infections?

>

> I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g.

congenitally)

> poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness

> created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board

to

> do the job.

>

> And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the

toxin

> and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People

who

> have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this

> stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of

> crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation:

on

> one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to

impair

> our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also

> ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff,

which

> increases our need for GSH to clear it.

>

> For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates

an

> ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the

short

> and long term, by reducing that deficit.

>

> > If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and

> > unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be

able to

> > rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this

> > experience.

>

> But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all,

when

> the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is

the

> very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me

that

> any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent

the

> body itself relies on.

>

> There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does.

Should

> we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the

body's

> own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES,

> because that's why the liver makes it in the first place!

>

> > For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group

> > website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and

at

> > times

> > only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has

full

> > energy

> > again and walks for miles without problems, and her major

therapy was

> > Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS

> > pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH

production.

>

> Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless

you're

> doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or

> another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone

would

> seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and*

GSH?

> I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx

anyway,

> but GSH helps that tremendously, too.)

>

> > But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after

years

> > of abx, and it could all come down to genetics.

>

> If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all

> strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure

these

> days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues.

> Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a

genetic

> glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one

of

> the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff

like

> epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and

> testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same

> enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt

that

> glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research.

Until

> then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,.

>

> But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good

enough.

>

> > Still, if we have ever

> > been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we

can be

> > well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the

blocking

> > factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology

in our

> > CFS.

>

> I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may

indeed

> be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a

> genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked

around.

>

> And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be

substantial

> as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of

what

> I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some

organ

> that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of

> becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the

damage,

> and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my

thyroid

> and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas

and

> joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is

> probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being

48

> will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not

> without complaint.

>

> Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal.

> After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a

huge

> help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going

to

> be pristine and new again like when I was 20.

>

> > 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years

> > (definitely have earned your veteran status).

>

> Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which

> makes it 22 years.

>

> > How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What

was

> > your functional level then

> > and now? You say you are going on international trips now,

that

> > is far

> > removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while

> > improving some.

>

> I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as

discussed

> above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation,

careful

> monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to

taking

> even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting

here.

>

> Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful

> stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that.

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

FFC = Fatigue and Fibromyalgia Centers (a franchise clinic system

treating FM/CFS)

GSH = Abbreviation for N-(N-L-gamma-glutamyl-L-cysteinyl)glycine, a.k.a.

Glutathione

Re: Glutathione

What does FFC stand for, and does GSH mean " Growth Stimulating

Hormone " ? Thanks in advance,

Janice

>

> > Sara,

> > Thanks for your responses; I find them encouraging, good to hear

that

> > GSH boosting works. I think that you have demonstrated the CFS

and

> > Glutathione situation quite clearly in your experience. A few

> > questions

> > come to mind now:

> >

> > 1. I recall that you are being treated at the FFC, so how can you

> > separate the effects of all of those treatments from the GSH

boosting?

>

> It was the FFC that put me on GSH injections in the first place.

>

> They also gave me a fistful of other stuff to try -- about nine

items

> in all, IIRC. I've been at this long enough to know to try new

things

> one at a time, and not move on to anything else until it's clear

> whether the first thing is doing anything and if so, what.

>

> I got the first GSH shot in their office one hot afternoon last

> August, on a " let's see what this does " basis. I didn't start

> anything else that day. Within an hour, I felt like I was flying.

I

> slept the sleep of the dead that night, and just felt smart and

> strong and wonderful for about the next 72 hours. Eventually, the

> effect faded; and I didn't have another shot until October (when

I

> went in again, and they gave me an Rx for the shots). In the

> meantime, I tried bioidentical hormones, ENADA,

quercetin/bromelian,

> testosterone gel, ProBoost, and a few other things. Of the

group,

> the testosterone was the only real NO; and the GSH was far and

away

> the biggest YES (though most of the others were also very useful,

> especially the ProBoost.)

>

> The only other thing that's had this same kind of dramatic effect

on

> my CFS was getting on thyroid in 2002. This feels like it's

finishing

> the job the Armour started.

>

> > 2. How much improvement do you attribute solely to the GSH

> > boosting? In

> > other words, how bad was your CFS prior to GSH, and how bad is

it now?

>

> I was very ill (probably 70% impaired) from 1993-2000 or so. I

spent

> almost all my time in bed, was constantly sore, had incredible

brain

> fog, the whole nasty package. Starting in 1997, when I was

diagnosed,

> I began finding things that helped some -- and a few things that

> helped a lot. Over the years, the effects of these discoveries

> mounted to the point where I was up to 65-70% functional by last

> summer. It wasn't enough to get me back to work, but it was

enough

> that I could enjoy doing things with my family, and take on a bit

of

> volunteering. Still, my best friend remembers that when we went

out

> anywhere last year, I'd have to take it slow and sit often.

>

> Now, I'm closer to 85-90% The biggest gains have been in immunity

(my

> secondary infections are much less of an issue), mental acuity (I

> feel like I've found 25 missing IQ points, and am now in grad

school

> half-time), and " brittleness " -- an intangible sense of how much

> margin I have for stress, how much I can take before I break..

> There's a deep reserve and buffer there that wasn't there before.

I'm

> out and about most days, and even traveling on my own; my friend

> notices that I can usually keep up with her considerable energy

when

> we're out for the day together.

>

> I'm writing this on a plane bound for Athens, with my 13-year-old

son

> for company on the adventure. I did a similar trip to Mexico with

my

> daughter last year (just a few weeks before that first GSH shot),

and

> spent a lot of that trip off my feet and napping. I don't think

I'm

> going to be nearly so burned out this time.

>

> > 3. You mention below that you are doing most of the things I

mention,

> > plus some others. Have you written out your protocol, or could

you

> > briefly mention the other things you are using?

>

> Oh, geez. The list is huge. But here's the high points, in

roughly

> the order I added them:

>

> 1. CPAP for sleep apnea.

> 2. Armour Thyroid 120mcg/day with 40mg DHEA to support fried

thyroid

> and adrenal glands

> 3. Avoid all soy products (I'm allergic, and it causes

inflammation

> throughout the body), and eat wheat only occasionally

> 4. St. 's Wort and 5-HTP to support fried mood centers

> 5. Bioidentical progesterone and Bi-Est to support fried

endocrine

> system

> 6. ProBoost to support fried thymus

> 7. GSH in all its varied forms

>

> In addition, there's a huge handful of supplements day and night,

> which looks something like this:

>

> Multivitamin

> Ester-C

> Extra Bs, including p5p

> Calcium

> Magnesium

> Fish Oil

> Evening Primrose Oil

> Flaxseed OIl

> L-Carnitine

> L-Glutamine

> L-Tyrosine

> N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine

> Glucosamine

> Alpha Lipoic Acid

> DMAE

> Kyolic

> ENADA

> Quercetin/Bromelian

> Diaxinol (to support a fried pancreas -- note the pattern here?)

> .....and a few other things I can't remember right now

>

> Also, most recently, I've added Recup.

>

> > 4. I agree in principle with your thoughts about GSH and the

possible

> > challenges in getting our bodies to start producing adequate

GSH

> > again.

> > However, what if we have always been poor GSH producers and the

real

> > problem is the drain on the GSH resources due to toxin load and

> > co-infections?

>

> I'm not sure it matters whether we were " always " (e.g.

congenitally)

> poor GSH producers, or became poor producers because the illness

> created these blockages. Either way, we don't have enough on board

to

> do the job.

>

> And that lack, according to the theory, is the very reason the

toxin

> and bug load was able to increase to oppressive levels. People

who

> have enough GSH, whether endogenously or exogenously, clear this

> stuff fairly easily and naturally. It takes a much bigger dose of

> crud to overwhelm them. In CFS, we're in a double-bind situation:

on

> one hand, there's something about the illness that seems to

impair

> our ability to make our own GSH. On the other, the pathogen also

> ensures that our bodies are being overloaded with extra stuff,

which

> increases our need for GSH to clear it.

>

> For whatever reason, there's pressure on both ends that creates

an

> ever-widening deficit. And much can be remedied, in both the

short

> and long term, by reducing that deficit.

>

> > If that is the case then when we can stop the bugs and

> > unload the toxins and any other 'allostatic load' we should be

able to

> > rebound quite a bit, and in fact many PWC seem to have had this

> > experience.

>

> But wouldn't adding GSH be an important part of this? After all,

when

> the body sets to work stopping bugs and unloading toxins, GSH is

the

> very first stuff it reaches for. It seems pretty logical to me

that

> any effort in this direction might start by using the same agent

the

> body itself relies on.

>

> There seems to be some confusion about what GSH is and does.

Should

> we use it as part of chelation? OF COURSE, because it's the

body's

> own primary natural chelator! Should we use it to detox? YES,

> because that's why the liver makes it in the first place!

>

> > For example, there is a story on the Phoenix CFS group

> > website about a woman who was nearly bedridden for decades and

at

> > times

> > only had 1-2 good hours in a day and is now 95% well and has

full

> > energy

> > again and walks for miles without problems, and her major

therapy was

> > Abx. This seems to support the drained GSH resources view of CFS

> > pathology, rather than a sudden physiological halt to GSH

production.

>

> Again, I'm not clear why the distinction is important, unless

you're

> doing research. For whatever reason, her GSH was low. One way or

> another, she found a way to raise it. (Though taking abx alone

would

> seem to be the long way around the barn -- why not use abx *and*

GSH?

> I have terrible secondary infections related to taking abx

anyway,

> but GSH helps that tremendously, too.)

>

> > But I realize she may be an anomaly, many PWC are not well after

years

> > of abx, and it could all come down to genetics.

>

> If she had a flavor of Lyme that responds well to abx (not all

> strains do), her story makes perfect sense. Rich is pretty sure

these

> days that, for many of us, it does come down to genetic issues.

> Methylation correction doesn't work for me because I have a

genetic

> glitch that makes it very hard for my body to clear SAMe -- one

of

> the critical pieces of the sequence. (The same gene makes stuff

like

> epinepherine, cortisol and cortisone, morphine derivatives, and

> testosterone impossible for me. They're all cleared by the same

> enzyme, which is produced by this malfunctioning gene.) I doubt

that

> glitch can be cured by anything short of stem cell research.

Until

> then, I will not be making enough of my own GSH, period,.

>

> But if I can get it from a bottle, I can have a life. It's good

enough.

>

> > Still, if we have ever

> > been well in the past, prior to CFS, it seems possible that we

can be

> > well again without GSH supplementation, if we can reverse the

blocking

> > factors, and if GSH production really is the primary pathology

in our

> > CFS.

>

> I think (Rich may have a good deal more to say) that this may

indeed

> be possible for some people -- those whose blockages don't have a

> genetic cause, or do have a genetic cause that can be worked

around.

>

> And this statement doesn't address damage, which can be

substantial

> as the years roll on. Look again at my supplement list: most of

what

> I''m taking is there to coax a minimal performance out of some

organ

> that is simply damaged beyond recovery, or at serious risk of

> becoming so. Being on GSH has rolled back quite a bit of the

damage,

> and is helping me get more out of what I have left. But my

thyroid

> and adrenals are gone, and they ain't coming back. My pancreas

and

> joints are borderline. My amygdala's ability to modulate mood is

> probably over the line as well. My ovaries are going (simply being

48

> will do that to you). My liver and heart are plodding on, but not

> without complaint.

>

> Healing is only possible if there's a healthy organ left to heal.

> After 20+ years, wear and tear have taken their toll. GSH is a

huge

> help with this, but I don't kid myself that all of this is going

to

> be pristine and new again like when I was 20.

>

> > 5. You mentioned awhile ago that you have had CFS for 15 years

> > (definitely have earned your veteran status).

>

> Actually, I'm part of the original California Class of '84. Which

> makes it 22 years.

>

> > How bad was your CFS at its worst, and how bad is it now? What

was

> > your functional level then

> > and now? You say you are going on international trips now,

that

> > is far

> > removed from someone like me who is mostly housebound, even while

> > improving some.

>

> I was housebound pretty much through my 30s. Recovery, as

discussed

> above, has been incremental. Exploration, experimentation,

careful

> monitoring, a certain willingnesss to risk, and an openness to

taking

> even small progress where I found it were the main keys to getting

here.

>

> Between FFC and this list, I think I've found more really useful

> stuff in the last year than in the entire five years before that.

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

for CHRISTINE HEEREN HOW much does it cost? How long does it take?HHF glutathioneHey everyone,I'm currently in Va Beach visiting friends. We did my son's 3rd IV treatment (DMPS & EDTA) on Friday and added glutathione for the first time. I'm so amazed at his speech the last few days. He's saying things I never heard before (like "mommy is a mother, daddy is a father"). We visited my old neighbors from NY who now live in Chesapeake. They haven't seen him in a couple of years and couldn't believe the difference My one friend said "I didn't expect him to look so good- and he's talking!". They have a neighbor who is 20 and LF. My son pulled up a chair at the table and ate lunch with us- just for a few minutes- but I've never seen him do that before. Oh ya- and I was taking pictures of everyone and kept jumping into the group shot. NEVER seen anything like that from him before too.The glutathione was more money and I wasn't sure if it was going to work- but I really believe it has made a difference in just 3 days. Have any of you seen this? Anyway, I'm really excited and very hopeful.Also, Today I visited the AutismMedia.org site and showed my neighbors videoclips about autism. It really made a difference- thanks to and Autism Media!Sincerely,

[Guest guest]

,

Glutathione made a world of difference for Kolin, which

combined with the MB12 injections have made so he is completely interactive and

VERY verbal. He has full language usage as long as he has both, including

pragmatic language. His ability to articulate his thoughts also increases as

well as eye contact and ability to handle stressful situations.

I am happy for you that is making such strides,

congratulations!