Question

[Guest guest]

Hello Dear One,

Basically you are cupping your jaw line, your chin and all the way up to your

ears on each side of your face.

I wish I could draw you a picture.

Here goes:

Open your hand flat with the palm facing you. Bring your hand up to your face

and wrap your pointer finger and your thumb around the bottom portion of your

face...your jaw and chin. Push up with your hand and fingers and as you do push

your mouth downward as if you are trying to force a frown. Hold it and resist

with your hand against your face.

Does this make sense?

Re: Question

Hello Dearest ,

You know I think you look fantastic. You are one of my favorite role models

for Life Lift.

As for your thyroid try pushing on the area below your throat where your

thyroid sits while you do at least 10 Life Lift breaths daily. I just press my

fingers there and do my Life Lift breaths. It may help.

Love,

Rashelle

HI ,

What LL has mostly done for me is to make and keep me firm. I have alot

of trouble losing weight because I have thyroid problems but only have about 10

lbs to lose and am able to keep my weight fairly level with LL despite my

thyroid. I hope to get my thyroid working again and think I am on the right

track so I hope to be able to lose that last 10. I can say that I am in the

best physical shape I have been in since I was in my thirties. I am now 54 and

feel so much better it is unbelievable. Lifelift can give you the body you

want without alot of stress and huffing and puffing. Have you watched the tape?

Do you have the one with the facelift? I really love that. I have been able to

keep my chin firm and feel like it has helped my face look younger.

Good luck, and let me know if I can be of any help to you.

Love,

[Guest guest]

Sweet Rashelle

Same here

R

Re: Question

Rashelle, you always know how to make me feel so good!!!! I have missed you

and am so excited for your new health business. I only wish I were close enough

to take advantage.

Love you,

Hello Dearest ,

You know I think you look fantastic. You are one of my favorite role models

for Life Lift.

As for your thyroid try pushing on the area below your throat where your

thyroid sits while you do at least 10 Life Lift breaths daily. I just press my

fingers there and do my Life Lift breaths. It may help.

Love,

Rashelle

HI ,

What LL has mostly done for me is to make and keep me firm. I have alot

of trouble losing weight because I have thyroid problems but only have about 10

lbs to lose and am able to keep my weight fairly level with LL despite my

thyroid. I hope to get my thyroid working again and think I am on the right

track so I hope to be able to lose that last 10. I can say that I am in the

best physical shape I have been in since I was in my thirties. I am now 54 and

feel so much better it is unbelievable. Lifelift can give you the body you

want without alot of stress and huffing and puffing. Have you watched the tape?

Do you have the one with the facelift? I really love that. I have been able to

keep my chin firm and feel like it has helped my face look younger.

Good luck, and let me know if I can be of any help to you.

Love,

[Guest guest]

Thank you Rashelle, I think I may have it and will try and see what happens.

I realy thought that was where it was located but wasn't positive. Thank you my

dear friend,

Love,

Hello Dear One,

Basically you are cupping your jaw line, your chin and all the way up to your

ears on each side of your face.

I wish I could draw you a picture.

Here goes:

Open your hand flat with the palm facing you. Bring your hand up to your face

and wrap your pointer finger and your thumb around the bottom portion of your

face...your jaw and chin. Push up with your hand and fingers and as you do push

your mouth downward as if you are trying to force a frown. Hold it and resist

with your hand against your face.

Does this make sense?

Re: Question

Hello Dearest ,

You know I think you look fantastic. You are one of my favorite role

models for Life Lift.

As for your thyroid try pushing on the area below your throat where your

thyroid sits while you do at least 10 Life Lift breaths daily. I just press my

fingers there and do my Life Lift breaths. It may help.

Love,

Rashelle

HI ,

What LL has mostly done for me is to make and keep me firm. I have

alot of trouble losing weight because I have thyroid problems but only have

about 10 lbs to lose and am able to keep my weight fairly level with LL despite

my thyroid. I hope to get my thyroid working again and think I am on the

right track so I hope to be able to lose that last 10. I can say that I am in

the best physical shape I have been in since I was in my thirties. I am now 54

and feel so much better it is unbelievable. Lifelift can give you the body you

want without alot of stress and huffing and puffing. Have you watched the tape?

Do you have the one with the facelift? I really love that. I have been able to

keep my chin firm and feel like it has helped my face look younger.

Good luck, and let me know if I can be of any help to you.

Love,

[Guest guest]

Sherrie Welcome

Lizzy explained it great!!

Good luck

R

Re: question

Hi Sherrie,

Welcome to LL!!!!!! As far as I know there isn't a pamphlet with

different exercises on it. Rashelle is working on a book but it isn't

done yet.

The great thing about LL is that you can do it with just about any

exercise or stretch. I do it with leg lifts, sit ups, Pilates, walking,

and the list goes on. Make sure you know the LL breath well and do it

with your favorite exercises and stretches. You can even do it while

sitting, while you're holding your breath tense your belly and butt and

you'll get a terrific workout!

Love, Liz

---

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:16:41 -0000 " Sherrie Brown " <sherrieb99@...>

writes:

I received my lifelift this week and love it. I don't really have

time to watch it everytime and go through the videos. I got the

original and workout 1. I was wondering if Rashelle offers a book,

pamphlet or cheat sheet to show the moves so you can do the workout

without watching videos. Thanks for your time.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sherrie,

Welcome to LL!!!!!! As far as I know there isn't a pamphlet with

different exercises on it. Rashelle is working on a book but it isn't

done yet.

The great thing about LL is that you can do it with just about any

exercise or stretch. I do it with leg lifts, sit ups, Pilates, walking,

and the list goes on. Make sure you know the LL breath well and do it

with your favorite exercises and stretches. You can even do it while

sitting, while you're holding your breath tense your belly and butt and

you'll get a terrific workout!

Love, Liz

---

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:16:41 -0000 " Sherrie Brown " <sherrieb99@...>

writes:

I received my lifelift this week and love it. I don't really have

time to watch it everytime and go through the videos. I got the

original and workout 1. I was wondering if Rashelle offers a book,

pamphlet or cheat sheet to show the moves so you can do the workout

without watching videos. Thanks for your time.

[Guest guest]

We go for weeks without hearing from Turk. Now he pops up with cute jokes and a question like he was just here! hehe ;-)

Question

Hello Evereyone:

Do earphones, I mean the big ones(not the tiny ones that come with cd players) interfere with ICD. After all they have magnet in them right? TURK Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

I think they are like little loud speakers. To check the size of the magnet

field, Take a cheap magnetic compass and hold it

about the same distance from the headset as your ICD would be. If there

is any deviation of the needle, I would then check

with the Mfg. of the ICD. If there is no deviation it hold be safe.

Turk wrote:

Hello

Evereyone:Do earphones,

I mean the big ones(not the tiny ones that come with cd players) interfere

with ICD. After all they have magnet in them right? TURK

Please visit the Zapper homepage at

http://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

Missed you too honey. !... :-)

Question

Hello Evereyone:

Do earphones, I mean the big ones(not the tiny ones that come with cd players) interfere with ICD. After all they have magnet in them right? TURK Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

Thanks Hank

Re: Question

I think they are like little loud speakers. To check the size of the magnet field, Take a cheap magnetic compass and hold it about the same distance from the headset as your ICD would be. If there is any deviation of the needle, I would then check with the Mfg. of the ICD. If there is no deviation it hold be safe. Turk wrote:

Hello Evereyone:Do earphones, I mean the big ones(not the tiny ones that come with cd players) interfere with ICD. After all they have magnet in them right? TURK Please visit the Zapper homepage at http://www.ZapLife.org Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

Next time do not stay away so long, makes me wonder what you are up to. ;-) I should behave, people will wonder, hehe

Question

Hello Evereyone:

Do earphones, I mean the big ones(not the tiny ones that come with cd players) interfere with ICD. After all they have magnet in them right? TURK Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

Farah:

Absolutely. From the way I picture it, I think flat feet would lead

to stretching and pulling of the medial collateral ligament, the pes

anserinus tendons, the VMO attachment, and any of the other

structures that would prevent the knee from buckling inward.

Picture the flat foot and the subsequent rolling inward of the

ankle. This travels upward to the knee and puts pressure there,

which (of course) leads up to the hips, back & neck. Remember, it is

all connected.

I'd guess there would be increased pressure on the lateral side of

the knee, like where the lateral femoral condyle, lateral tibial

condyle and lateral meniscus are.

HTH,

Doug

> Could flat feet cause some unnatural twist and uneven

> distribution of pressure?

> --farah

[Guest guest]

HI Farah,

I've had problems with my knee cap tracking latterly.

I'm in the middle of my 3rd set of orthodics.

2 different ones from the PT, and a new set from

a podiatrist.

My feet do not seem to work properly on there own,

my arches fall in, causing ankle stress/pain

and now I can definitly tell that it causes and

affects my knees, and hips.

The PT people i had really didn't know what they were doing

in the case of altering the orthodics to help me out.

I got some help with their sets of orthodics,

but was still in lots of pain.

The podiatrist set seem to be the best so far.

I got the last set mid to end of January,

so I've come to realize that most of my

knee pain is gone.

I can still tell that my IT Band is still tight.

I need to keep up with the foam rollar, it gives me

the best results for stretching it.

My right foot is still rolling in sometimes.

Like when I'm spinning, in the standing positions

I'm getting hip pain. Same is true when I

do stability exercises, my right ankle falls in.

I've tried not to shock my legs by doing intense things,

but now I'm slowly trying to get back to more

activities I couldn't do, so the orthodics are better

than the old pair, but not just finely toned yet.

If you thinking orthodics may help you out,

in my opinion the podiatrist is better suited to

help you out. He just works with feet and ankles,

the PT people have so many things to worry about

all over your body. THis was my experience some

people may have had better PT people.

One more thing about your PT person.

Ask the office which PT person is best with knees,

or which ever diagnosys your OS/GP has given you.

SOme PT's are just better, and prefer certain

conditions. So, you'll probably get better care

with someone who like your problem.

I talked to my cousin who is a PT in another state.

She likes nuero people, people who are getting back

from strokes. She also mentioned in her office there

is someone who always like to work on the back problem people.

When you think about it, it makes sense, so help yourself out

and ask.

Good luck, and stay positive.

Connie

> All,e

> Wow guys, i have the opposite problem, it seems. I

> cant find doctors that WONT chop me open! I had a

> question: Besides having a tight LR, what else can

> cause a knee cap to track laterally? I just want to

> know what to ask the PT to look for when I get my lazy

> butt to the PT center!

> --Farah

>

[Guest guest]

Farah,

One more thing. I found that McConnel taping helped me out.

The tape pretty much helps the knee cap not shift

latery.

The McConnel taping helped tons with the pain.

It isn't a solution, but allowed me to workout

before I got my latest orthodics.

I'm still taping because I'm still building some

of the muscles back up in my legs after years

of bad foot placement. With the latest orthodics

I can really feel the use of some of the muscles on

the inner side of my legs, so I'm hoping I'll be able

to discontinue the taping when things are stronger

on the medial parts of my legs.

I found some PT's don't know how to do McConnel taping,

at least my first PT didn't. So, be aware not

all PTs are created equal.

Good Luck,

Connie

[Guest guest]

yes, flat feet and and unnatural walking patterns can contribute to CP. I

had my gait analzed and was fitted for specialized orthotics that help my feet

not to pronate so much when I walk.

Margaret (North Carolina)

-13 knee surgeries for chondromalacia patella; this website has my knee story

on it under Margaret's surgery

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/cgi

bin/KNEEtalk/YaBB.pl?board=softtissue;action=logout

[Guest guest]

Also, you can experiment with how to place the tape yourself.

Connie -- my tape comes off if I sweat (even though it's " sweatproof " ). Does

yours?

Ann

Re: Question

Farah,

One more thing. I found that McConnel taping helped me out.

The tape pretty much helps the knee cap not shift

latery.

The McConnel taping helped tons with the pain.

It isn't a solution, but allowed me to workout

before I got my latest orthodics.

I'm still taping because I'm still building some

of the muscles back up in my legs after years

of bad foot placement. With the latest orthodics

I can really feel the use of some of the muscles on

the inner side of my legs, so I'm hoping I'll be able

to discontinue the taping when things are stronger

on the medial parts of my legs.

I found some PT's don't know how to do McConnel taping,

at least my first PT didn't. So, be aware not

all PTs are created equal.

Good Luck,

Connie

[Guest guest]

In 1995 I had a lateral retinacular release to fix lateral maltracking of my

kneecap. It worked (until I began having other problems 4 years later). When

the new problem came up, I went back to the same OS. Apparently in the meantime

he (he's the team doc for an NBA team) had gotten big ego or something because

he pretty much did the same thing your doc did. Not much of an exam, and over

the course of several months gave me 4 different diagnoses, none of which, it

turns out, was right. I always felt he just wanted me out of his office because

he had more important patients to attend to.

After 5 years of getting shunted around from one doc to another (and waiting 3-4

months for each appt), I switched clinics & went to an OS I picked out based on

his photograph (he looked like he had a sense of humor & might be able to deal

with a patient who does Web research on her problems). He ordered an MRI

(wow!), we scheduled surgery, and now I'm doing rehab. In my case there was a

plica (it's easier if you look this up than for me to explain what it is) that

had ground 2/3 of my lateral meniscus to shreds and caused chondromalacia in

places where you don't get chondromalacia. In addition, I had chondromalacia

patellae from lateral subluxation.

My surgeon felt that the subluxation (which I still have -- surgery was 7 weeks

ago) was due to my weak quads. He told me to do 150 straight leg lifts a day,

and to hold my foot at a 10 degree (no more, because you want to work your VMO,

not your adductors) angle out (i.e. 1:00) for the last 50. After I could handle

that, add 2 lb weights.

Meanwhile, in order for me to use the treadmill and Stairmaster (small steps) I

tape my kneecap over so it doesn't pull laterally. Several of us here on this

list tape our kneecaps. If your pain happens at rest and doesn't increase with

activity, I think someone should go in and scope your knee. If you have

chondromalacia patellae (CP), it should hurt more & more as you use it.

Some people on this list are against scoping as a way of finding out what's

wrong, but there's no way we would have known about that plica w/o the scope --

it didn't show up on the MRI.

Ann

question

Hello

I joined this group in hopes of truly learning what is wrong with my

knees. My name is Jim and I am 29 years old. About 4 months ago I

noticed I my knees had a dull aching pain sometimes in the front of

the knee but sometimes it felt like it was originating from the

backside. THe aching could be at any time of the day and an increase

in activity did not increase the pain. Also my knees would crack and

grind when I extended them. I was diagnosed with patella femoral

chondromalcia from the general doctor took VIOX for two weeks was

instructed to avoid leg exercises unitl pain went away. After two

weeks I started my exercise regimen as my doctor instructed me to do

and strength my quads. After about 2 months of these exercises

(cycling , leg press) I noticed no improvement. I then saw a

orthopedic surgeon. He gave me about a 15 minute exam and diagnosed

me early stages arthritis under my patella. He basically told me to

live with the pain take, Advil, no running, no leg strengthen

exercises just swimming and cycling. I had x-ray's taken but he

didn't discuss them. The radiograph report said everything looked

normal . I have no arthritis in my family no early adolescent knee

injuries am not overweight and moderately active. I am currently

seeking a second opinion (planning on seeing a physiotherapist) and

getting an MRI done. I do notice if I place my hand on my knee an

extend them I can feel a some sort of grinding. and sometimes the

patella seems it is not tracking properly. It doesn't hurt when I do

this but I generally have a dull aching pain 24 hours of the day.

How can the OS say I have arthritis just by a 15 minute eval no sign

on the x-rays and no family history or prior injuries. Any help

would greatly be APPRECIATED

thank you

Jim

:~)

[Guest guest]

I strongly believe that surgery should be a last resort - after

you've tried everything else! Read through our archives and see the

stories of people who've had one, two, or many knee surgeries and

still have knee pain. Some even are worse than before surgery

Two years ago, my knees hurt so much that I couldn't stand up for

very long, could barely walk, and could drive my car only short

distances. My knees hurt all the time - at rest and with activity. I

thought surgery was the answer...but this group helped me realize

that I needed to find the CAUSE of my pain. Removing the cartilage

wouldn't fix that for me...because the CAUSE was feet that pronote,

knock knees (my knees point inward instead of straight ahead), leg

length difference, and tight and weak muscles.

Now I am much better...without surgery! I can hike in the mountains,

walk fast, break a sweat at the gym, go up and down stairs easily,

kneel on soft surfaces, and even wear high heels! My knees certainly

aren't perfect, but they keep getting better and better as time goes

on. To read how other people got better without surgery, search the

archives for posts by Joenhiscat, Jain, and Tony L. They (and

others) were my inspiration and kept me going when I felt

discouraged.

IMHO, surgery is best for cartilage damage due to trauma. For

example, if you have great mechanics and alignment, good muscle

strength and flexibility, but your knee got smashed in a car

accident. Then a scope & scrape could clean things out. But for

someone like me, with several mechanical problems, scraping off

cartilage would have left me with the same bad mechanics and even

less cartilage.

Ann said:

If your pain happens at rest and doesn't increase with activity, I

think someone should go in and scope your knee. If you have

chondromalacia patellae (CP), it should hurt more & more as you use

it.

>

> Some people on this list are against scoping as a way of finding

out what's wrong, but there's no way we would have known about that

plica w/o the scope -- it didn't show up on the MRI.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Deb:

Great post. Thank you!

So glad you're doing better. Keep it up and I'm sure you'll get

back to 99 or 100 percent!

Keep us up,

Doug

dougfromct2002@...

> Now I am much better...without surgery!

[Guest guest]

There is no way they would have found the plica that was running amok inside my

knee w/o scoping it. I had two MRI's a year apart and it didn't show up. I

could have gone on the rest of my life trying to figure out my Q angle and

whether or not my feet operated correctly, but poking a couple of holes into the

knee & looking around really isn't going to hurt anyone.

Debby -- I would have taken this off line but your e-mail address shows up as

noreply@.... I don't know why you dislike me, but you not only contradict

me (as below) but if I tell someone they're stepping on my toes, you jump in and

attack me for allegedly attacking them. I would appreciate it if you'd leave me

alone.

Ann

Re: question

I strongly believe that surgery should be a last resort - after

you've tried everything else! Read through our archives and see the

stories of people who've had one, two, or many knee surgeries and

still have knee pain. Some even are worse than before surgery

Two years ago, my knees hurt so much that I couldn't stand up for

very long, could barely walk, and could drive my car only short

distances. My knees hurt all the time - at rest and with activity. I

thought surgery was the answer...but this group helped me realize

that I needed to find the CAUSE of my pain. Removing the cartilage

wouldn't fix that for me...because the CAUSE was feet that pronote,

knock knees (my knees point inward instead of straight ahead), leg

length difference, and tight and weak muscles.

Now I am much better...without surgery! I can hike in the mountains,

walk fast, break a sweat at the gym, go up and down stairs easily,

kneel on soft surfaces, and even wear high heels! My knees certainly

aren't perfect, but they keep getting better and better as time goes

on. To read how other people got better without surgery, search the

archives for posts by Joenhiscat, Jain, and Tony L. They (and

others) were my inspiration and kept me going when I felt

discouraged.

IMHO, surgery is best for cartilage damage due to trauma. For

example, if you have great mechanics and alignment, good muscle

strength and flexibility, but your knee got smashed in a car

accident. Then a scope & scrape could clean things out. But for

someone like me, with several mechanical problems, scraping off

cartilage would have left me with the same bad mechanics and even

less cartilage.

Ann said:

If your pain happens at rest and doesn't increase with activity, I

think someone should go in and scope your knee. If you have

chondromalacia patellae (CP), it should hurt more & more as you use

it.

>

> Some people on this list are against scoping as a way of finding

out what's wrong, but there's no way we would have known about that

plica w/o the scope -- it didn't show up on the MRI.

>

[Guest guest]

Ann:

The whole idea of this Group is to have a bunch of regular people

freely exchanging ideas. We've all had more than our share of

supposed experts telling us what we should think.

No one attacked you. No one dislikes you. We're all here to try to

help.

The debate over whether or not exploratory arthroscopy is a good idea

will never be completely resolved, because each of us is different.

We're all entitled to our opinions; it is up to each of us to decide

what he/she thinks will work best.

Having disparate opinions in this Group is healthy. Let's try to not

let anything here get personal.

Thanks,

Doug

dougfromct2002@...

> There is no way they would have found the plica that was running

amok inside my knee w/o scoping it. I had two MRI's a year apart and

it didn't show up. I could have gone on the rest of my life trying

to figure out my Q angle and whether or not my feet operated

correctly, but poking a couple of holes into the knee & looking

around really isn't going to hurt anyone.

>

> Debby -- I would have taken this off line but your e-mail address

shows up as noreply@y... I don't know why you dislike me, but you

not only contradict me (as below) but if I tell someone they're

stepping on my toes, you jump in and attack me for allegedly

attacking them. I would appreciate it if you'd leave me alone.

>

> Ann

> Re: question

>

>

> I strongly believe that surgery should be a last resort - after

> you've tried everything else! Read through our archives and see

the

> stories of people who've had one, two, or many knee surgeries and

> still have knee pain. Some even are worse than before surgery :

(

>

> Two years ago, my knees hurt so much that I couldn't stand up for

> very long, could barely walk, and could drive my car only short

> distances. My knees hurt all the time - at rest and with

activity. I

> thought surgery was the answer...but this group helped me realize

> that I needed to find the CAUSE of my pain. Removing the

cartilage

> wouldn't fix that for me...because the CAUSE was feet that

pronote,

> knock knees (my knees point inward instead of straight ahead),

leg

> length difference, and tight and weak muscles.

>

> Now I am much better...without surgery! I can hike in the

mountains,

> walk fast, break a sweat at the gym, go up and down stairs

easily,

> kneel on soft surfaces, and even wear high heels! My knees

certainly

> aren't perfect, but they keep getting better and better as time

goes

> on. To read how other people got better without surgery, search

the

> archives for posts by Joenhiscat, Jain, and Tony L. They

(and

> others) were my inspiration and kept me going when I felt

> discouraged.

>

> IMHO, surgery is best for cartilage damage due to trauma. For

> example, if you have great mechanics and alignment, good muscle

> strength and flexibility, but your knee got smashed in a car

> accident. Then a scope & scrape could clean things out. But for

> someone like me, with several mechanical problems, scraping off

> cartilage would have left me with the same bad mechanics and even

> less cartilage.

>

>

> Ann said:

> If your pain happens at rest and doesn't increase with activity,

I

> think someone should go in and scope your knee. If you have

> chondromalacia patellae (CP), it should hurt more & more as you

use

> it.

> >

> > Some people on this list are against scoping as a way of

finding

> out what's wrong, but there's no way we would have known about

that

> plica w/o the scope -- it didn't show up on the MRI.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm sorry to hear that you've had a setback. I have lots of those,

so I commiserate! My latest one was caused by overdoing it in

spinning class, and it took a month for my knees to get back to

where they were before the class. Ugggh.

Here's what has helped my knees:

1. Walking every day. This is the single best thing I've done.

Jain posted a great article (you can find it in our archives)

about a mountain climber who tried PT, surgery, etc., and nothing

worked. So he started walking regularly - slowly at first, then

gradually increasing speed/incline a bit each week. This approach

seems to be working for me, too. I alternate walking on the

treadmill with using the elliptical machine, and on the weekends I

hike in the mountains. Variety is good - different activities use

muscles in different ways. And like the guy in the article, if I

DON'T exercise one day, I have more knee pain the next day.

2. Stretching every day.

3. Massage/trigger point release. I like " The Stick " better than a

foam roller. The Stick is basically a rolling pin that you roll up

and down your muscles with. Tight muscles (especially my calf and

lateral quad) make my pain much worse. It took a while for me to

become aware of muscle tension rather than just pain. Now that I

realize the muscles are tight, I roll and stretch them, and that

makes me feel less controlled by the pain, less helpless.

4. Strengthening - gluts, core, and arches of feet (I over-pronote).

5. Gentle range of motion exercises. I make sure to (gently) fully

bend and fully extend my knees each day. Bending get nutrients

inside the knee and removes waste products.

6. New orthotics and good running shoes. I wear the orthotics and

running shoes A LOT. I figure every step I take with good foot

support is helping my knees, and vice versa.

7. Cho-pat dual knee strap. I wear this when I exercise. One strap

goes above the knee, and one goes under. I've tried probably 5

different braces, and this one works the best for me.

That's the stuff I do myself. I've also seen many many many doctors

and tried different therapies. Prolotherapy helped reduce the

terribly uncomfortable swelling inside my knees, and helped me go up

stairs. Acupuncture helped, too. And massage - trigger point and

rolfing. Both are too expensive to do on a regular basis, so now I

do my own trigger point massage.

I've also tried plenty of things that didn't help, or even made my

knees worse. It's definitely been " two steps forward, one step

back. " I'm a gung-ho person, and I set myself back many times by

overdoing it. For example, stretching my quads really helped me go

down stairs. But if I stretch the right leg too hard, I have more

pain the next day. It took me months (duh!) to correlate the two.

Now on that leg, I stretch the quad only every other day, and very

gently. Slow and steady works best for me.

Knees can take a frustratingly long time to heal, because tendons,

ligaments, and cartilage don't have a good blood supply. Often I

don't see progress from week to week or even month to month. But I

definitely see it in several-month chunks and in years. That's what

I focus on when I get discouraged. And during setbacks, I read and

re-read posts like Joenhiscat's. If it weren't for this group and

stories like his, I would have given up a long time ago and

just " lived with it " .

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have questions. Hopefully you're

just in a " one step back " phase, and will soon be taking " two steps

forward " .

> debbywelty:

> i know it's not just one thing that will fix our problem... what

worked for you? i'm getting pretty discouraged. i thought my knees

were getting better but they seem to have taken a turn for the

worse. i have been doing lots of pt, yoga and strength training as

well as taking carsons fish oil. i know i've read some posts from

folks who have seen osteopaths for this. we have a good one in our

area. i may try that. i have plans to climb el cap in yosemite in

june and i need to be able to carry the loads to the base of the

cliff. any suggestions would be appreciated.

> thanks, lisa

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ann, it was not my intention to offend you. We're all here in this

group to share ideas (including contradictory ones!) and help each

other. I think it's wise to hear opposing viewpoints before making a

big decision like surgery. And I'm glad that your surgery was

successful!

We're all in the same knee pain boat - let's support each other and

give each other the benefit of the doubt, especially since email

doesn't convey inflection, facial expressions, etc, like talking

face to face.

> There is no way they would have found the plica that was running

amok inside my knee w/o scoping it. I had two MRI's a year apart

and it didn't show up. I could have gone on the rest of my life

trying to figure out my Q angle and whether or not my feet operated

correctly, but poking a couple of holes into the knee & looking

around really isn't going to hurt anyone.

>

> Debby -- I would have taken this off line but your e-mail address

shows up as noreply@y... I don't know why you dislike me, but you

not only contradict me (as below) but if I tell someone they're

stepping on my toes, you jump in and attack me for allegedly

attacking them. I would appreciate it if you'd leave me alone.

>

> Ann

> Re: question

>

>

> I strongly believe that surgery should be a last resort - after

> you've tried everything else! Read through our archives and see

the

> stories of people who've had one, two, or many knee surgeries

and

> still have knee pain. Some even are worse than before surgery :

(

>

> Two years ago, my knees hurt so much that I couldn't stand up

for

> very long, could barely walk, and could drive my car only short

> distances. My knees hurt all the time - at rest and with

activity. I

> thought surgery was the answer...but this group helped me

realize

> that I needed to find the CAUSE of my pain. Removing the

cartilage

> wouldn't fix that for me...because the CAUSE was feet that

pronote,

> knock knees (my knees point inward instead of straight ahead),

leg

> length difference, and tight and weak muscles.

>

> Now I am much better...without surgery! I can hike in the

mountains,

> walk fast, break a sweat at the gym, go up and down stairs

easily,

> kneel on soft surfaces, and even wear high heels! My knees

certainly

> aren't perfect, but they keep getting better and better as time

goes

> on. To read how other people got better without surgery, search

the

> archives for posts by Joenhiscat, Jain, and Tony L. They

(and

> others) were my inspiration and kept me going when I felt

> discouraged.

>

> IMHO, surgery is best for cartilage damage due to trauma. For

> example, if you have great mechanics and alignment, good muscle

> strength and flexibility, but your knee got smashed in a car

> accident. Then a scope & scrape could clean things out. But for

> someone like me, with several mechanical problems, scraping off

> cartilage would have left me with the same bad mechanics and

even

> less cartilage.

>

>

> Ann said:

> If your pain happens at rest and doesn't increase with activity,

I

> think someone should go in and scope your knee. If you have

> chondromalacia patellae (CP), it should hurt more & more as you

use

> it.

> >

> > Some people on this list are against scoping as a way of

finding

> out what's wrong, but there's no way we would have known about

that

> plica w/o the scope -- it didn't show up on the MRI.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am new and had a scope 4 months ago and still have swelling and stiffness in

knee. What do you use as good running shoes. of course I can't run but would

love to have some good walking shoes. Also what is proletherapy??? Sorry to

have so many questions. thanks lin

debbywelty <no_reply > wrote:Hi ,

I'm sorry to hear that you've had a setback. I have lots of those,

so I commiserate! My latest one was caused by overdoing it in

spinning class, and it took a month for my knees to get back to

where they were before the class. Ugggh.

Here's what has helped my knees:

1. Walking every day. This is the single best thing I've done.

Jain posted a great article (you can find it in our archives)

about a mountain climber who tried PT, surgery, etc., and nothing

worked. So he started walking regularly - slowly at first, then

gradually increasing speed/incline a bit each week. This approach

seems to be working for me, too. I alternate walking on the

treadmill with using the elliptical machine, and on the weekends I

hike in the mountains. Variety is good - different activities use

muscles in different ways. And like the guy in the article, if I

DON'T exercise one day, I have more knee pain the next day.

2. Stretching every day.

3. Massage/trigger point release. I like " The Stick " better than a

foam roller. The Stick is basically a rolling pin that you roll up

and down your muscles with. Tight muscles (especially my calf and

lateral quad) make my pain much worse. It took a while for me to

become aware of muscle tension rather than just pain. Now that I

realize the muscles are tight, I roll and stretch them, and that

makes me feel less controlled by the pain, less helpless.

4. Strengthening - gluts, core, and arches of feet (I over-pronote).

5. Gentle range of motion exercises. I make sure to (gently) fully

bend and fully extend my knees each day. Bending get nutrients

inside the knee and removes waste products.

6. New orthotics and good running shoes. I wear the orthotics and

running shoes A LOT. I figure every step I take with good foot

support is helping my knees, and vice versa.

7. Cho-pat dual knee strap. I wear this when I exercise. One strap

goes above the knee, and one goes under. I've tried probably 5

different braces, and this one works the best for me.

That's the stuff I do myself. I've also seen many many many doctors

and tried different therapies. Prolotherapy helped reduce the

terribly uncomfortable swelling inside my knees, and helped me go up

stairs. Acupuncture helped, too. And massage - trigger point and

rolfing. Both are too expensive to do on a regular basis, so now I

do my own trigger point massage.

I've also tried plenty of things that didn't help, or even made my

knees worse. It's definitely been " two steps forward, one step

back. " I'm a gung-ho person, and I set myself back many times by

overdoing it. For example, stretching my quads really helped me go

down stairs. But if I stretch the right leg too hard, I have more

pain the next day. It took me months (duh!) to correlate the two.

Now on that leg, I stretch the quad only every other day, and very

gently. Slow and steady works best for me.

Knees can take a frustratingly long time to heal, because tendons,

ligaments, and cartilage don't have a good blood supply. Often I

don't see progress from week to week or even month to month. But I

definitely see it in several-month chunks and in years. That's what

I focus on when I get discouraged. And during setbacks, I read and

re-read posts like Joenhiscat's. If it weren't for this group and

stories like his, I would have given up a long time ago and

just " lived with it " .

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have questions. Hopefully you're

just in a " one step back " phase, and will soon be taking " two steps

forward " .

> debbywelty:

> i know it's not just one thing that will fix our problem... what

worked for you? i'm getting pretty discouraged. i thought my knees

were getting better but they seem to have taken a turn for the

worse. i have been doing lots of pt, yoga and strength training as

well as taking carsons fish oil. i know i've read some posts from

folks who have seen osteopaths for this. we have a good one in our

area. i may try that. i have plans to climb el cap in yosemite in

june and i need to be able to carry the loads to the base of the

cliff. any suggestions would be appreciated.

> thanks, lisa

>

>

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Lin,

There are different types of running shoes - for different types of

activities and different feet. Personally, I wear because

they have good pronation control, and I pronote a lot. Try to get a

knowledgeable salesperson to help fit your shoes. My physical

therapist's office recommended a good store where the salespeople

know about foot and knee conditions and watch you walk in different

pairs of shoes. Another option is to buy a pair or two of shoes and

take them to your physical therapist for evaluation. You can return

them if they don't work out (just don't wear them outside).

Prolotherapy is a treatment to strengthen lax or damaged ligaments

and tendons. It can be very helpful IF your knee pain is caused by

loose or damaged ligaments/tendons. For example, if your ACL is

partially torn, prolo can rebuild it. IMHO, prolo is only as good as

the doctor doing it. Some docs just " inject where it hurts " , but

there's more to it than that. A good doc will look at your whole

body and search for the cause of the pain - which is sometimes far

away from the pain itself. There's good information on prolo on the

internet - try searching with google.com.

> > debbywelty:

> > i know it's not just one thing that will fix our problem... what

> worked for you? i'm getting pretty discouraged. i thought my

knees

> were getting better but they seem to have taken a turn for the

> worse. i have been doing lots of pt, yoga and strength training

as

> well as taking carsons fish oil. i know i've read some posts from

> folks who have seen osteopaths for this. we have a good one in

our

> area. i may try that. i have plans to climb el cap in yosemite

in

> june and i need to be able to carry the loads to the base of the

> cliff. any suggestions would be appreciated.

> > thanks, lisa

> >

> >

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Debby,

Is a specialty footwear store. and did you need an Rx to get

fitted.

I have had a lot of setbacks too. I think I have a falling arch on

my right leg -- how did you get the orthotics a podiatrist/ or

through PT??thanks

Lynne

> > > debbywelty:

> > > i know it's not just one thing that will fix our problem...

what

> > worked for you? i'm getting pretty discouraged. i thought my

> knees

> > were getting better but they seem to have taken a turn for the

> > worse. i have been doing lots of pt, yoga and strength training

> as

> > well as taking carsons fish oil. i know i've read some posts

from

> > folks who have seen osteopaths for this. we have a good one in

> our

> > area. i may try that. i have plans to climb el cap in yosemite

> in

> > june and i need to be able to carry the loads to the base of the

> > cliff. any suggestions would be appreciated.

> > > thanks, lisa

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> >