New to group

December 20, 2006

hi l,sorry for your trouble, welcome...pregnancy changes liver function upregulating non oxidative pathways causing false positive EtG...many drugs you may have taken could have contributed...if you doc at any time was apap/hydrocodone the apap could have injured the liver predisposing to false positive...any detailed history and numbers you could give would be most helpful...regards,r A number of associations between hepatic dysfunction and pregnancy exist. This review discusses these relationships in the context of obstetric management. The liver serves multiple functions: the biotransformation of insoluble compounds (e.g., drugs, toxins, bilirubin), the metabolism and excretion of cholesterol and bilirubin, the production of plasma proteins (e.g., albumin, coagulation factors, alpha- and beta-globulins, transferrin, haptoglobin), and the metabolism of amino acids,

carbohydrates and lipids. Cholestasis During Pregnancy FIGURE 1. Evaluation of cholestasis during pregnancy. (RUQ=right upper quadrant) No

single liver function test is available to quantify liver disease. The designation "liver function tests" describes a panel of laboratory tests profiling discrete aspects of liver function.1 Liver cell injury or necrosis is measured by determining aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT) levels, while liver synthetic function (depressed in cirrhosis or severe acute liver disease) is quantified by determining albumin level and prothrombin time. Cholestasis and biliary obstruction are evaluated by measuring alkaline phosphatase, bilirubin, 5'-nucleotidase or gamma glutamyl transpeptidase levels1 (Figure 1). In normal pregnancies, alkaline phosphatase levels may be elevated three- to fourfold, secondary to placental alkaline phosphatase levels.2-5 Elevations of ALT occurring during pregnancy can be evaluated using a

diagnostic algorithm (Figure 2). Elevated ALT is frequently the result of viral hepatitis, which can be easily diagnosed using serologic tests. Other possible etiologies of mild or moderate elevations of ALT are drug-induced hepatotoxicity, hyperemesis gravidarum, cholelithiasis, HELLP (hemolysis, elevated liver enzymes and low platelet count) syndrome or acute fatty liver of pregnancy. Alanine Aminotransferase Elevation During Pregnancy FIGURE 2. Algorithm for the evaluation of alanine aminotransferase elevation during pregnancy. (HBsAg=hepatitis B surface antigen; ALT=alanine aminotransferase; RUQ=right upper quadrant; DIC=disseminated intravascular coagulopathy; HELLP=hemolysis, elevated liver enzymes, low platelets) "Lal K." <lpky14@...> wrote: Hi everyone- I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage and the test's accuracy? I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else. - L __________________________________________________

December 21, 2006

how about birth control pills or premarin for menopause

December 21, 2006

Yes I agree and I think hormones also play a role

Re: New to group

Wish I could refer you to some solid information in that area, but I

know of none. I'm sure you've reviewed your diet and any new products

that you may have been in contact with for EtOH content. There have been

a few anecdotal stories of positive EtGs without alcohol consumption

surrounding pregnancy. In fact, Dr. Liepman's alcohol inhalation study

was prompted after two nurses, BOTH PREGNANT, tested positive for EtG

and claimed their only contact with alcohol was through hand sanitizer

use (about 30 times/day) and cologne. Their DOC, in both cases, involved

opiates and not alcohol. Sounds like their pregnancy added credibility

to their claims. I would love to see some research done on ENDOGENOUS

ALCOHOL production. I believe that the cases involving pregnancy,

gastric bypass, and diabetes suggest some altered metabolic processes,

most likely involving endogenous alcohol production rather than an

external source of alcohol.

>

> Hi everyone-

>

> I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and

postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently

tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank

and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false

positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage

and the test's accuracy?

> I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any

information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.

> - L

>

> __________________________________________________

>

December 22, 2006

Lorie could you private email me your letter also from the toxicologist..thank you

December 22, 2006

I also believe that diabetes plays a role. As I stated before, my daughter-in-law tested positive during the summer months for alcohol with yeast present and two months later the tests were processed for ETG levels and they came back in the 1,800 - 2,700 range. She was diagnosed at one point with some kind of abnormal liver test. Would we be wise to research this? Also, we need to find an expert witness that can help with her case. Does anyone have a referral that is an expert with ETG? Would Dr. Skipper be a help? The court case has been continued until Jan. 25th, but CPS is now going to recommend that all of her children be adopted out if she cannot prove this test was not accurate. If she truly had been drinking and had alcohol levels at the time of the test at .4 level (this would be at 5 times the legal limit for alcohol in CA), wouldn't the ETG levels be at much higher levels? It

seems that I saw that ETG levels could be in the 20,000 range if a test were done at the time that someone was drinking. This is scary....Sharoncrssemc@... wrote: Yes I agree and I think hormones also play a role Re: New to group Wish I could refer you to some solid information in that area, but Iknow of none. I'm sure you've reviewed your diet and any new productsthat you may have been in contact with for EtOH content. There have beena few anecdotal stories of positive EtGs without alcohol consumptionsurrounding pregnancy. In fact, Dr. Liepman's alcohol inhalation studywas prompted after two nurses, BOTH PREGNANT, tested positive for EtGand claimed their only contact with alcohol was through hand sanitizeruse (about 30 times/day) and cologne. Their DOC, in both cases, involvedopiates and not alcohol. Sounds like their pregnancy added credibilityto their claims. I would love to see some research done on ENDOGENOUSALCOHOL production. I believe that the cases involving pregnancy,gastric bypass, and diabetes suggest some altered

metabolic processes,most likely involving endogenous alcohol production rather than anexternal source of alcohol.>> Hi everyone->> I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG andpostpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recentlytested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drankand I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the falsepositive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillageand the test's accuracy?> I am currently being punished by diversion and can use anyinformation-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.> - L>>>> __________________________________________________>

December 22, 2006

Hi Sharon,

I can share a little bit about my own legal case. I fought to keep my pharmacist license (administrative law case) as opposed to your daughter-in-law's family court (?) case. But, like her, I was fighting the accuracy and legitimacy of the EtG test. There are a dozen angles you could go after in attacking the EtG test -- failure to normalize the level to creatinine conc., failure to warn her of the test's sensitivity and possible interference by foods and other products, (possible disease state interference (liver impairment), possible endogenous alcohol production (diabetes), lack of large-scale studies, etc. etc. After being drawn in so many directions for so, so long and much frustration, I realized that it was THE LEGITIMACY of the test IN THE BROADEST SENSE that needed to be attacked. And the best way to do this was to show that the test is NOT supported by the scientific community. There are two ways this can be accomplished: (1) through expert witnesses and (2) scientifically valid and non-biased reference sources. I utilized Dr. Skipper, who can be contacted at gregskipper@.... I also used Dr. Yale Caplan, a forensic toxicologist. They each submitted a critical report on EtG and were going to provide telephonic testimony in the case of a hearing. I would definitely consider contacting Dr. Skipper. I would be happy to email Dr. Caplan's report to you. The SINGLE THING that helped my case the most was the SAMHSA advisory. My lawyer presented it, along with a letter that basically stated that the evidence in my case would be thrown out in court because EtG testing is NOT supported by the scientific community, and the AG's office settled my case out of court within a week. Unfortunately, expert witnesses are COSTLY.

As for the levels...Last I spoke with him, Dr. Skipper seemed to concede that levels up to 2,000 could possibly be attributed to sources other than alcoholic beverages. Relatively speaking, Dr. Feldman (formerly of NW Toxicology Lab) stated that they had seen 6 levels in excess of 1,000,000 (one level of a detox patient approached 10,000,000!). Of course, these were with heavy drinking, but it is particularly bothersome to me to have naive counselors and probation folks CONTINUE to tell me how "very high" my level of 1,100 was...

Lorie

> >> > Hi everyone-> >> > I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and> postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently> tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank> and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false> positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage> and the test's accuracy?> > I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any> information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.> > - L> >> >> >> > __________________________________________________> >

December 23, 2006

it sure hasn't helped my case..how do I find out if the homewrekers are telling me the truth that they only give etg in NH..I know they lie

December 23, 2006

hi sharon...what lorie said..i would hammer them to death with the SAMHSA warning and the fact thact this is not FDA certified and not a forensicly valid test...use any court actions even out of court AG decisions like lorie as your legal precedents. the causes of false positive are complex but generally tend to be a combination of increased endogenous alcohol and some sort of temporary or permanent liver oxidative pathway inhibition upregulating EtG so the liver enzyme thing could be very significant..most of the positives are female drug of choice apap/hydrocodone which can cause liver injury.because of increased yeast in the gut diabetics can autobrew more endogenous etoh so that can be a factor...the research on all this has yet to be done... for me the simple approach that any legal decision based

on a faulty test would be wrong and reversed on appeal makes the most sense...regards,rLorie <saclorie@...> wrote: Hi Sharon, I can share a little bit about my own legal case. I fought to keep my pharmacist license (administrative law case) as opposed to your daughter-in-law's family court (?) case. But, like her, I was fighting the accuracy and legitimacy of the EtG test. There are a dozen angles you could go after in attacking the EtG test -- failure to normalize

the level to creatinine conc., failure to warn her of the test's sensitivity and possible interference by foods and other products, (possible disease state interference (liver impairment), possible endogenous alcohol production (diabetes), lack of large-scale studies, etc. etc. After being drawn in so many directions for so, so long and much frustration, I realized that it was THE LEGITIMACY of the test IN THE BROADEST SENSE that needed to be attacked. And the best way to do this was to show that the test is NOT supported by the scientific community. There are two ways this can be accomplished: (1) through expert witnesses and (2) scientifically valid and non-biased reference sources. I utilized Dr. Skipper, who can be contacted at gregskipperusa (DOT) net. I also used Dr. Yale Caplan, a forensic toxicologist. They each submitted a critical report on EtG and were going to provide telephonic testimony in

the case of a hearing. I would definitely consider contacting Dr. Skipper. I would be happy to email Dr. Caplan's report to you. The SINGLE THING that helped my case the most was the SAMHSA advisory. My lawyer presented it, along with a letter that basically stated that the evidence in my case would be thrown out in court because EtG testing is NOT supported by the scientific community, and the AG's office settled my case out of court within a week. Unfortunately, expert witnesses are COSTLY. As for the levels...Last I spoke with him, Dr. Skipper seemed to concede that levels up to 2,000 could possibly be attributed to sources other than alcoholic beverages. Relatively speaking, Dr. Feldman (formerly of NW Toxicology Lab) stated that they had seen 6 levels in excess of 1,000,000 (one level of a detox patient approached 10,000,000!). Of course, these were with heavy drinking, but it is particularly bothersome to me to have naive counselors and

probation folks CONTINUE to tell me how "very high" my level of 1,100 was... Lorie > >> > Hi everyone-> >> > I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and>

postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently> tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank> and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false> positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage> and the test's accuracy?> > I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any> information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.> > - L> >> >> >> > __________________________________________________> >

December 23, 2006

I don't really understand how that affects your case, but we now know

that it is also being used in California, right? I would try to stick to

the MAIN ARGUMENT...that EtG is unreliable. If you gripe about every

little thing that you thing is unjust (it's only used in your state,

they didn't measure creatinine, they didn't warn you about food or

hygiene products, etc.), I fear they will dismiss you as nothing but a

complainer. Pick the biggest and most important flaw...the test

itself...and tear it apart!

Lorie

>

> it sure hasn't helped my case..how do I find out if the homewrekers

are

> telling me the truth that they only give etg in NH..I know they lie

>

December 26, 2006

Hi, I had my positive when I was 7 months pregnant. I did nothing to get a positive. I was told y my Occupational Nurse where I had been working has an RN that if their is sugar in your urine and the urine sits for some time it ferments and can show up as alcohol. I had been spilling sugar in my urine and was being tested for gestational diabetes, my 1 hour glucose was high. None of that mattered to my case manager.Marla MDDO06@..."Lal K." <lpky14@...> wrote: Hi everyone- I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage and the test's accuracy? I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else. - L __________________________________________________

December 26, 2006

Marla, Where are you at as far as your case? Are you back to work? Did they drop action against you? I have been thinking about you and was wondering if there was any change. Marla Damato <mddo06@...> wrote: Hi, I had my positive when I was 7 months pregnant. I did nothing to get a positive. I was told y my Occupational Nurse where I had been working has an RN that if their is sugar in your urine and the urine sits for some time it ferments and can show up as alcohol. I

had been spilling sugar in my urine and was being tested for gestational diabetes, my 1 hour glucose was high. None of that mattered to my case manager.Marla MDDO06 "Lal K." <lpky14 > wrote: Hi everyone- I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage and the test's accuracy? I am currently being punished by diversion

and can use any information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else. - L __________________________________________________

December 30, 2006

Lorie, Thank you so much for the information. I have been out of town due to the death of my ex-husband. My son and wife are going through enough with this court case and this really ended the year on a sad note. Hopefully with your help and the help of others on this forum, we can try to overcome the ETG issue. Yes, I would be grateful if you could send me the report. I will give your suggestions to the attorney as well. Best, SharonLorie <saclorie@...> wrote: Hi Sharon, I can share a little bit about my own legal case. I fought to keep my pharmacist license (administrative law case) as opposed to your daughter-in-law's family court (?) case. But, like her, I was fighting the accuracy and legitimacy of the EtG test. There are a dozen angles you could go after in attacking the EtG test -- failure to normalize the level to creatinine conc., failure to warn her of the test's sensitivity and possible interference by foods and other products, (possible disease state interference (liver impairment), possible endogenous alcohol production (diabetes), lack of large-scale studies, etc. etc. After being drawn in so many directions for so, so long and much frustration, I realized that it was THE LEGITIMACY of the test IN THE BROADEST SENSE that needed to be attacked. And the best way to do this was to

show that the test is NOT supported by the scientific community. There are two ways this can be accomplished: (1) through expert witnesses and (2) scientifically valid and non-biased reference sources. I utilized Dr. Skipper, who can be contacted at gregskipperusa (DOT) net. I also used Dr. Yale Caplan, a forensic toxicologist. They each submitted a critical report on EtG and were going to provide telephonic testimony in the case of a hearing. I would definitely consider contacting Dr. Skipper. I would be happy to email Dr. Caplan's report to you. The SINGLE THING that helped my case the most was the SAMHSA advisory. My lawyer presented it, along with a letter that basically stated that the evidence in my case would be thrown out in court because EtG testing is NOT supported by the scientific community, and the AG's office settled my case out of court within a week. Unfortunately, expert witnesses are

COSTLY. As for the levels...Last I spoke with him, Dr. Skipper seemed to concede that levels up to 2,000 could possibly be attributed to sources other than alcoholic beverages. Relatively speaking, Dr. Feldman (formerly of NW Toxicology Lab) stated that they had seen 6 levels in excess of 1,000,000 (one level of a detox patient approached 10,000,000!). Of course, these were with heavy drinking, but it is particularly bothersome to me to have naive counselors and probation folks CONTINUE to tell me how "very high" my level of 1,100 was... Lorie > >> > Hi everyone-> >> > I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and> postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently> tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank> and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false> positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage> and the test's accuracy?> > I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any> information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.> > -

L> >> >> >> > __________________________________________________> >

December 30, 2006

Robin, Thanks for the input. I suggested that she go back and have the doctor pull the liver function tests that were done. Best, Sharonrobin murray <remurraymd@...> wrote: hi sharon...what lorie said..i would hammer them to death with the SAMHSA warning and the fact thact this is not FDA certified and not a forensicly valid test...use any court actions even out of court AG decisions like lorie as your

legal precedents. the causes of false positive are complex but generally tend to be a combination of increased endogenous alcohol and some sort of temporary or permanent liver oxidative pathway inhibition upregulating EtG so the liver enzyme thing could be very significant..most of the positives are female drug of choice apap/hydrocodone which can cause liver injury.because of increased yeast in the gut diabetics can autobrew more endogenous etoh so that can be a factor...the research on all this has yet to be done... for me the simple approach that any legal decision based on a faulty test would be wrong and reversed on appeal makes the most sense...regards,rLorie <saclorie > wrote: Hi Sharon, I can share a little bit about my own legal case. I fought to keep my pharmacist license (administrative law case) as opposed to your daughter-in-law's family court (?) case. But, like her, I was fighting the accuracy and legitimacy of the EtG test. There are a dozen angles you could go after in attacking the EtG test -- failure to normalize the level to creatinine conc., failure to warn her of the test's sensitivity and possible interference by foods and other products, (possible disease state interference (liver impairment), possible endogenous alcohol production (diabetes), lack of large-scale studies, etc. etc. After being drawn in so many directions for so, so long and much frustration, I realized that it was THE LEGITIMACY of the test IN THE BROADEST SENSE that needed to be attacked. And the best way to do this was to show that the test is NOT supported by the scientific

community. There are two ways this can be accomplished: (1) through expert witnesses and (2) scientifically valid and non-biased reference sources. I utilized Dr. Skipper, who can be contacted at gregskipperusa (DOT) net. I also used Dr. Yale Caplan, a forensic toxicologist. They each submitted a critical report on EtG and were going to provide telephonic testimony in the case of a hearing. I would definitely consider contacting Dr. Skipper. I would be happy to email Dr. Caplan's report to you. The SINGLE THING that helped my case the most was the SAMHSA advisory. My lawyer presented it, along with a letter that basically stated that the evidence in my case would be thrown out in court because EtG testing is NOT supported by the scientific community, and the AG's office settled my case out of court within a week. Unfortunately, expert witnesses are COSTLY. As for the levels...Last I spoke with him,

Dr. Skipper seemed to concede that levels up to 2,000 could possibly be attributed to sources other than alcoholic beverages. Relatively speaking, Dr. Feldman (formerly of NW Toxicology Lab) stated that they had seen 6 levels in excess of 1,000,000 (one level of a detox patient approached 10,000,000!). Of course, these were with heavy drinking, but it is particularly bothersome to me to have naive counselors and probation folks CONTINUE to tell me how "very high" my level of 1,100 was... Lorie > >> > Hi everyone-> >> > I am wondering if any of you out there have any information on ETG and> postpartum/pregnant state. I am a physician in diversion and recently> tested positive 10 days after giving birth. It wasn't because I drank> and I didn't do anything else unusual that can account for the false> positive. Is anyone aware of any information on glucose/protein spillage> and the test's accuracy?> > I am currently being punished by diversion and can use any> information-- for piece of mind if for nothing else.> > - L> >> >>

>> > __________________________________________________> >

January 6, 2007

Welcome Nina!

We look forward to hearing about those girls:) I have 4 girls myself ranging

from 18yrs to 13 months. My older 2 are fully vaxed, but of course the

schedule was MUCH less than it is now. I have dogs and read up on vaccination

issues with them and when I had my last 2 girls decided to forgo shots entirely.

My last 2 have been SO much healthier.

Beth

January 6, 2007

Hi Nina!

It's Connie from Family Playtime; so glad you decided to join! I

also vaccinated my first child, now 3, b/c I didn't know any

better. But thank goodness that I have learned that I do have a

choice b/c we did not give one single vax to our next child. Not

one day goes by that I wish I could go back and choose not to

vaccinate Lola, because it hurts me to know that she had to go

through the trauma of it all although nothing life threatening. She

has always had skin issues though, like rashes and sensitivities;

and wouldn't you know that Milo, the vax-free kid has perfect skin

and health!

Welcome!

Connie

>

> Hello everyone,

>

> I just joined this group. I live in South Carolina, am married,

and have two beautiful girls ages 3 1/2 years and 7 weeks. My first-

born has been vaccinated, as I was completely unaware any potential

dangers existed with vaccines, but now I'm doing all the research I

can on the topic and want to keep my second born safe from the

vaccines and to prevent future vaccines in my firstborn. I look

forward to being a part of this group!

>

> Nina

>

January 8, 2007

Hi Connie!

Thanks so much for the recomendation. My older one (Brigitte) really hasn't

been unhealthy, at least not what I think to be. She got sick the first time

when she was almost a year old, and it was because I had to put her in daycare

for the first time...the 2nd day she was there she came down with an ear

infection. I'd say what Brigitte suffers from most is seasonal allergies...I

don't know if that could be from the vaccines or not. I never had allergies as

a child (and unfortunately I don't know much about her biological father as to

whether he did or not), so who knows, right?!

I have to figure out what kind of childcare I'm going to have from Sophie

since I have to go back to work in February. The daycare where Brigitte goes

doesn't allow unvax kids (they don't receive any govt. funding so they can have

whatever rules they want). Do you know of any natural parenting-friendly

daycares that exist?

Nina

connieyounglmt <connieyounglmt@...> wrote: