That faulty iodine paper

[Guest guest]

Golly, , I didn't know we had to believe either if they are both flawed.

Mike

>

> Your choice is to believe the peer review process which may not always

> be 100% accurate or believe the obvious con artist or quack or some

> gullible follower. It's your choice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, I think she read it. But it's obvious that you have already put on

the blinders and you're not going to see anything beyond them. Too bad.

You'd probably be happier on the " iodine lists " with the other " true

believers " .

..

..

>

> Posted by: " kenancy2000 " kenancy2000@...

>

<mailto:kenancy2000@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20That%20faulty%20iodine%20paper>

> kenancy2000 <kenancy2000>

>

>

> Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:42 pm (PDT)

>

>

>

> You didn't read a word of what I said.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

[Guest guest]

AFAIK no one ever drank a glass of wine and promptly died from an

anaphylactic reaction although I guess it could have happened.

There is some evidence [although FAIK it may all be anecdotal] that some

people may have an inbuilt propensity for alcoholism, and are therefor

much more likely to become " addicted " from light or causal use than the

average person. Having seen close up and personal the hell someone can

go through and can inflict upon loved ones from alcoholism I personally

choose to not take that chance. I would prefer to die than inflict that

condition upon myself or those I love. YMMV.

..

..

> Guess what, Roni. My grandfather was an alcoholic and chain smoker. He

> died from it at age 65, and suffered horrendously for years. My mother

> became alcoholic after falling into depression over a job loss when I

> was 11. She died 2 years later because of it. I could call alcohol

> poison, too, and avoid it for life out of fear of what " it " did to

> someone else. But I still enjoy a nice glass of wine or a beer

> occasionally. You can't let a bad reaction to something scare you away

> for life just because other people abused it, or didn't use it properly.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

[Guest guest]

I'm with you 100% . My first husband became alcoholic (had a father, uncle

and cousins who were too). He ruined our family with his abuse. Anyone who has

an alcoholic parent and drinks anyway is already in denial, and potentially well

on their way to trouble.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: That faulty iodine paper

hypothyroidism

Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 9:06 AM

AFAIK no one ever drank a glass of wine and promptly died from an

anaphylactic reaction although I guess it could have happened.

There is some evidence [although FAIK it may all be anecdotal] that some

people may have an inbuilt propensity for alcoholism, and are therefor

much more likely to become " addicted " from light or causal use than the

average person.   Having seen close up and personal the hell someone can

go through and can inflict upon loved ones from alcoholism I personally

choose to not take that chance.  I would prefer to die than inflict that

condition upon myself or those I love.  YMMV.

..

..

> Guess what, Roni. My grandfather was an alcoholic and chain smoker. He

> died from it at age 65, and suffered horrendously for years. My mother

> became alcoholic after falling into depression over a job loss when I

> was 11. She died 2 years later because of it. I could call alcohol

> poison, too, and avoid it for life out of fear of what " it " did to

> someone else. But I still enjoy a nice glass of wine or a beer

> occasionally. You can't let a bad reaction to something scare you away

> for life just because other people abused it, or didn't use it properly.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I'll give some credibility to that statement when I see you devote as

much attention to the 99.99...% [yes, I know what that means] of

evidence that contradicts your present position as you do to the 0.0...%

of credible research that supports your position. You've posted nothing

of consequence that would embarrass the iodine docs, yet nearly if not

all of the credible research fails to support them. You literally have

nothing whatsoever of consequence except anecdotal evidence. I'm

beginning to wonder if you even know what that means.

..

..

Ken wrote:

> >... I'm not so much trying to defend iodine, as I am trying to

> investigate it and argue about it. ...

[Guest guest]

What you believe will depend upon your education and intelligence. Your

choice completely.

For a reasoned rebuttal of the " flawed " peer review process crap see

Chuck's post in this digest.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " mikensd " mikensd@...

>

<mailto:mikensd@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20That%20faulty%20iodine%20paper>

> mikensd <mikensd>

>

>

> Mon Oct 5, 2009 7:08 pm (PDT)

>

>

>

> Golly, , I didn't know we had to believe either if they are both

> flawed.

> Mike

>

>

> >

> > Your choice is to believe the peer review process which may not always

> > be 100% accurate or believe the obvious con artist or quack or some

> > gullible follower. It's your choice.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Actually that's not always true. People often believe truthful things without

really understanding the " why " or reason behind it.

It's called a " hunch " , " instinct " , etc. Happens in science all the time.

-Ken Bagwell

> > >

> > > Your choice is to believe the peer review process which may not always

> > > be 100% accurate or believe the obvious con artist or quack or some

> > > gullible follower. It's your choice.

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

,

While I agree with everything you're saying about anaphylaxis potential and

iodine, if you think the peer review process is not flawed, you need counseling.

I probably have more inside experience in relevant fields than you will ever

have if you live two lifetimes So please save the delusions for someone

else. You're making yourself look ignorant here.

btw, I have met with the same type of resistance on another group that you are

experiencing here. That is, a refusal to deal with the issue of potential

anaphylactic reactions to iodine. Sure, they are rare, but so are airplane

crashes. However, given the potential consequence of being in a plane when it

goes down, I'd much rather be in a car crash (which occurs much more frequently)

instead. That alone is enough to warrant extra safety precautions rather than

minimizing the risk as they do. But to suggest that is to attack them

personally in their eyes. So they get defensive and refuse to even address the

issues I raised directly. You can't win with people who have adopted an idea in

a dogmatic fashion.

Signing off on this futile thread.

Mike

> > >

> > > Your choice is to believe the peer review process which may not always

> > > be 100% accurate or believe the obvious con artist or quack or some

> > > gullible follower. It's your choice.

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Quite true, as my posts have indicated. But one of us knows that the

credible support for taking massive doses of iodine are even more rare

and one of us chooses to be blind to that fact.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " kenancy2000 " kenancy2000@...

>

<mailto:kenancy2000@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20That%20faulty%20iodine%20paper>

> kenancy2000 <kenancy2000>

>

>

> Tue Oct 6, 2009 2:28 pm (PDT)

>

>

>

> , we both know that severe reaction to iodine is rare.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

>

>

> >

> > AFAIK no one ever drank a glass of wine and promptly died from an

> > anaphylactic reaction although I guess it could have happened.

> >

> > There is some evidence [although FAIK it may all be anecdotal] that

> some

> > people may have an inbuilt propensity for alcoholism, and are therefor

> > much more likely to become " addicted " from light or causal use than the

> > average person. Having seen close up and personal the hell someone can

> > go through and can inflict upon loved ones from alcoholism I personally

> > choose to not take that chance. I would prefer to die than inflict that

> > condition upon myself or those I love. YMMV.

> >

> >

> > .

> > .

> >

> > > Guess what, Roni. My grandfather was an alcoholic and chain

> smoker. He

> > > died from it at age 65, and suffered horrendously for years. My

> mother

> > > became alcoholic after falling into depression over a job loss when I

> > > was 11. She died 2 years later because of it. I could call alcohol

> > > poison, too, and avoid it for life out of fear of what " it " did to

> > > someone else. But I still enjoy a nice glass of wine or a beer

> > > occasionally. You can't let a bad reaction to something scare you

> away

> > > for life just because other people abused it, or didn't use it

> properly.

> > >

> > > -Ken Bagwell

[Guest guest]

I didn't say anything about " understanding the why " . Even in the case

you suggest to deny that education and intelligence plays a paramount

role is foolish. The educated and intelligent person is going to

" guess " right more often than someone not so blessed. Nowhere is this

more blatantly obvious than in those who choose or do not choose to

respond to quack claims.

Believing something without sufficient supporting evidence may be called

" hunch " , " instinct " , " faith " , " stupidity " or a number of other names.

That doesn't mean they're all of equal validity in any particular case.

In any event you will not find many scientists who will expound upon a

proposition based upon the list above; rather he/she will seek credible

support.

..

..

>

> Posted by: " kenancy2000 " kenancy2000@...

>

<mailto:kenancy2000@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20That%20faulty%20iodine%20paper>

> kenancy2000 <kenancy2000>

>

>

> Tue Oct 6, 2009 10:53 pm (PDT)

>

>

>

> Actually that's not always true. People often believe truthful things

> without really understanding the " why " or reason behind it.

>

> It's called a " hunch " , " instinct " , etc. Happens in science all the time.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

>

>

> >

> > What you believe will depend upon your education and intelligence. Your

> > choice completely.

> >

> > For a reasoned rebuttal of the " flawed " peer review process crap see

> > Chuck's post in this digest.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Unworthy of comment.

..

..

> Think I'm being facecious? Why don't you put that in your pipe and

> smoke it?

>

> -Ken Bagwell

[Guest guest]

kenancy2000 wrote:

> Hi Steve,

>

> Well, I guess my point is saying that, was that if people are under the care

of a physician (as I understand Abraham and other Iodine docs HAVE suggested up

front, and common sense should too), then when one runs into a problem with the

iodine dose, instead of running to an online forum and complaining that one had

a bad reaction to iodine, maybe one should consider that something about one's

therapy has not been considered.

Well, that's a start. If I go to a mechanic and he F*^5s up my car, I'm

not going back. Mechanics don't get a second chance unless they foot

the full bill for their mistakes and most certainly doctors don't. I'm

not one to be " practiced " on.

> Maybe they didn't take the recommended selenium and magnesium. Maybe they

need to cut the dosage level. Maybe they need can't be on iodine treatment

because they are allergic. Maybe the issue is transient anyway. Maybe they

need to cut back on thyroid hormones, or increase. Who knows what else!?

Some times it is trial and error. However, ofttimes it's arrogance (a

god complex) along with pushing their standard BS.

I'm willing to try a lot of things, and I've tried high dose Iodine at

50 mg/day and I'm still taking high dose at 6.25 mg/day but am thinking

of moving down to several mcg per day. I've fully aware that the

medical literature is sparce, not very supportive of high dose iodine,

and that the doctors pushing it are, as they say, " off in the weeds " . I

don't assume however that " off in the weeds " always means bad since most

of what we have today started off in the weeds.

One of my daughters was ambulanced to the ER a week or so ago having

having a faux seizure at the end of a very hard two days of black belt

testing (she got her second black belt). The seizure lasted several

hours off and on. At the ER, I wanted her to be tested for low blood

sugar since she had hardly eaten that day and put in a full day of

testing. I also wanted some blood work done to test various minerals.

They were having none of that and do NO blood work. They tried to get

her to go home when she couldn't even get into the wheelchair with her

arms and legs locked in various positions. Her heart rate was elevated

the entire time but they didn't care and when we finally got her home

from the ER, her heart rate stayed elevated most of the night.

Last night, the faux seizures started again in the middle of the night

and she was have serious problems controlling her hands/arms and it was

moving to her legs. I checked her blood sugar and it was not low so I

dropped that concern. I gave her 1000 mg of potassium and 320 mg of

magnesium after checking her blood pressure (good) and her heart rate

(high). Within 30 minutes, her heart rate returned to normal and she

was much more relaxed - the magnesium was to relax her since she needs

to avoid standard OTC anti-anxiety stuff like L-theanine and Kava and

she hadn't ever tried magnesium before. I have the same problem with

potassium levels that my heart rate goes up 20-30 percent when my

potassium is low normal. The doctors in the ER don't listen to

anything. It appears to me after checking into her diet that she is

serious deficient in minerals and the black belt stress put her over the

edge. To the doctors, once they had diagnosed faux seizures, their

standard practice is to give anti-anxiety medication and send the

patient home - they won't consider anything else.

Steve

> Take what I say with a grain of salt of course, as I say this in ignorance of

actually having been on the treatment myself. I am still researching. But what

I've read so far, these are some possibilities.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

>

>

>>

>>> If people are under the care of a physician, they have somewhat of a

responsibility to at least report negative reactions, don't you think?

>> You would think so. However, it is becoming more and more apparent that

>> statin drugs, extensively prescribed, have many more side effects than

>> acknowledged but doctors almost never reported their patients complaints

>> to the drug and generally complete dismiss them as something else.

>> Almost all muscle pain, memory problem, cognitive dysfunction,

>> depression, and feeling like s* & t are almost always attributed to

>> " aging " . I've seen a very large amount of reports by individuals almost

>> all of home had improvements within days of stopping statin drugs who's

>> doctor's insisted they go back on them.

>>

>> I personally had muscle pain in hands and legs and noticed that my

>> performance on timed computer games that I played regularly had slowed

>> down by 20-30%. It took weeks for most of the muscle pain to go away

>> although some leg pain lasted a few months. It took months for my

>> computer gaming performance to recover in full. I actually stopped the

>> statin drugs on my own AND informed my cardiologist that I was never

>> taking them again. The first statin drug I took caused arrhythmias and

>> I didn't make the association until I had gone through many many months

>> of worry over heart health.

>>

>> One thing that benefited me that most people don't do is that I was

>> taking high dose CoQ10, something that is decreased significantly by

>> statin drugs. I attribute this as partially responsible for my quick

>> and complete recovery. Some of the people I know that have muscle pain

>> from statin drugs are still not fully recovered many years afterwards.

>> I'm sure they would be quite displease if they had had cognitive

>> performance and memory tests before and after their statin drug experience.

>>

>> So no, doctors rarely if ever report negative reactions to drugs. I

>> doubt that if you were to talk to an average doctor that you will find

>> one that has ever filed and adverse reaction report with the FDA.

>> Doctors should be required to report all drugs that either didn't work,

>> or cause any form of side effect and that information, with personal

>> information removed, should be a database that is available to all

>> Americans to research.

>>

>> --

>>

>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

[Guest guest]

I've had several doctors prescribe statins and none every said a single

word about side effects or risks.

In my opinion, blood work should be run BEFORE starting statins and then

after being on statins.

My cardiologist knows that I have problems with statins, has decided

that having me take statins is unwise due to my reported problems (and I

know how to report problems), and is quite impressed that T3 has

improved my cholesterol number dramatically and does not think it unwise

that I'm taking T3, even though I self prescribing. However, she does

recognize that I'm not her typical patient thinks I have more on the

ball than all her patients combined. She thinks that I only need to

come in at most once every six months.

There are many very very large statin studies. Some report all-cause

mortality rates, some don't. Adding together all the ones that do

produces a meta study that has an N of 10s of thousands. All-cause

Mortality, unchanged.

However, while one is less likely to die of heart disease, one is more

likely to die of cancer and because negative cognitive side effects from

statins, one is more likely to die of accidents and suicide.

Steve

wrote:

> Well, I don't know about your doctor. My doctor who put my on statins

> is my cardiologist. And he explained very extensively that if I had any

> unexplained muscle pains or any other symptoms I was to inform him

> immediately, as some percentage of patients have reactions or side

> effects from statins that can be harmful or fatal. He also very closely

> monitors my other vitals, ordering blood work at intervals that to me

> seem excessive. I also visit his office more often than I would like,

> and he always questions me carefully. But I can appreciate that perhaps

> he is just being careful.

>

> And I already had arrhythmia; have had it all my life. No change with

> statins that I noticed; but I'm on a calcium blocker to control it.

>

> I am aware of the research that seems to indicate that statins do not

> decrease mortality. I don't know how definitive they are, but at this

> point I don't think they can be dismissed.

>

> Regards,

>

> .

> .

>

>> Posted by: " Steve " dudescholar4@...

>>

<mailto:dudescholar4@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20That%20faulty%20iodine%20p\

aper>

>> dudescholar <dudescholar>

>>

>>

>> Sun Oct 4, 2009 10:48 am (PDT)

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> kenancy2000 wrote:

>>

>>> If people are under the care of a physician, they have somewhat of a

>> responsibility to at least report negative reactions, don't you think?

>>

>> You would think so. However, it is becoming more and more apparent that

>> statin drugs, extensively prescribed, have many more side effects than

>> acknowledged but doctors almost never reported their patients complaints

>> to the drug and generally complete dismiss them as something else.

>> Almost all muscle pain, memory problem, cognitive dysfunction,

>> depression, and feeling like s* & t are almost always attributed to

>> " aging " . I've seen a very large amount of reports by individuals almost

>> all of home had improvements within days of stopping statin drugs who's

>> doctor's insisted they go back on them.

>>

>> I personally had muscle pain in hands and legs and noticed that my

>> performance on timed computer games that I played regularly had slowed

>> down by 20-30%. It took weeks for most of the muscle pain to go away

>> although some leg pain lasted a few months. It took months for my

>> computer gaming performance to recover in full. I actually stopped the

>> statin drugs on my own AND informed my cardiologist that I was never

>> taking them again. The first statin drug I took caused arrhythmias and

>> I didn't make the association until I had gone through many many months

>> of worry over heart health.

>>

>> One thing that benefited me that most people don't do is that I was

>> taking high dose CoQ10, something that is decreased significantly by

>> statin drugs. I attribute this as partially responsible for my quick

>> and complete recovery. Some of the people I know that have muscle pain

>> from statin drugs are still not fully recovered many years afterwards.

>> I'm sure they would be quite displease if they had had cognitive

>> performance and memory tests before and after their statin drug

>> experience.

>>

>> So no, doctors rarely if ever report negative reactions to drugs. I

>> doubt that if you were to talk to an average doctor that you will find

>> one that has ever filed and adverse reaction report with the FDA.

>> Doctors should be required to report all drugs that either didn't work,

>> or cause any form of side effect and that information, with personal

>> information removed, should be a database that is available to all

>> Americans to research.

>>

>> --

>>

>> Steve - dudescholar4@... <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

[Guest guest]

I just had the discussion with my cardio today telling him that I think I need

some potassium, and how much should I take and that I think it would help me

with water

retention. I can't take the regular diuretics because they are pro arrhythmic

and I have

atrial fibrillation. He wouldn't give me an amount, and suggested that I speak

to my

complementary medical doctor.

Roni

<>Just because something

isn't seen doesn't mean it's

not there<>

> Hi Steve,

>

> Well, I guess my point is saying that, was that if people are under the care

of a physician (as I understand Abraham and other Iodine docs HAVE suggested up

front, and common sense should too), then when one runs into a problem with the

iodine dose, instead of running to an online forum and complaining that one had

a bad reaction to iodine, maybe one should consider that something about one's

therapy has not been considered.

Well, that's a start.  If I go to a mechanic and he F*^5s up my car, I'm

not going back.  Mechanics don't get a second chance unless they foot

the full bill for their mistakes and most certainly doctors don't.  I'm

not one to be " practiced " on.

> Maybe they didn't take the recommended selenium and magnesium.  Maybe they

need to cut the dosage level.  Maybe they need can't be on iodine treatment

because they are allergic.  Maybe the issue is transient anyway.  Maybe they

need to cut back on thyroid hormones, or increase.  Who knows what else!?

Some times it is trial and error.  However, ofttimes it's arrogance (a

god complex) along with pushing their standard BS.

I'm willing to try a lot of things, and I've tried high dose Iodine at

50 mg/day and I'm still taking high dose at 6.25 mg/day but am thinking

of moving down to several mcg per day.  I've fully aware that the

medical literature is sparce, not very supportive of high dose iodine,

and that the doctors pushing it are, as they say, " off in the weeds " .  I

don't assume however that " off in the weeds " always means bad since most

of what we have today started off in the weeds.

One of my daughters was ambulanced to the ER a week or so ago having

having a faux seizure at the end of a very hard two days of black belt

testing (she got her second black belt).  The seizure lasted several

hours off and on.  At the ER, I wanted her to be tested for low blood

sugar since she had hardly eaten that day and put in a full day of

testing.  I also wanted some blood work done to test various minerals.

They were having none of that and do NO blood work.  They tried to get

her to go home when she couldn't even get into the wheelchair with her

arms and legs locked in various positions.  Her heart rate was elevated

the entire time but they didn't care and when we finally got her home

from the ER, her heart rate stayed elevated most of the night.

Last night, the faux seizures started again in the middle of the night

and she was have serious problems controlling her hands/arms and it was

moving to her legs.  I checked her blood sugar and it was not low so I

dropped that concern.  I gave her 1000 mg of potassium and 320 mg of

magnesium after checking her blood pressure (good) and her heart rate

(high).  Within 30 minutes, her heart rate returned to normal and she

was much more relaxed - the magnesium was to relax her since she needs

to avoid standard OTC anti-anxiety stuff like L-theanine and Kava and

she hadn't ever tried magnesium before.  I have the same problem with

potassium levels that my heart rate goes up 20-30 percent when my

potassium is low normal.  The doctors in the ER don't listen to

anything.  It appears to me after checking into her diet that she is

serious deficient in minerals and the black belt stress put her over the

edge.  To the doctors, once they had diagnosed faux seizures, their

standard practice is to give anti-anxiety medication and send the

patient home - they won't consider anything else.

Steve

> Take what I say with a grain of salt of course, as I say this in ignorance of

actually having been on the treatment myself. I am still researching.  But what

I've read so far, these are some possibilities.

>

> -Ken Bagwell

>

>

>>

>>> If people are under the care of a physician, they have somewhat of a

responsibility to at least report negative reactions, don't you think?

>> You would think so.  However, it is becoming more and more apparent that

>> statin drugs, extensively prescribed, have many more side effects than

>> acknowledged but doctors almost never reported their patients complaints

>> to the drug and generally complete dismiss them as something else.

>> Almost all muscle pain, memory problem, cognitive dysfunction,

>> depression, and feeling like s* & t are almost always attributed to

>> " aging " .  I've seen a very large amount of reports by individuals almost

>> all of home had improvements within days of stopping statin drugs who's

>> doctor's insisted they go back on them.

>>

>> I personally had muscle pain in hands and legs and noticed that my

>> performance on timed computer games that I played regularly had slowed

>> down by 20-30%.  It took weeks for most of the muscle pain to go away

>> although some leg pain lasted a few months.  It took months for my

>> computer gaming performance to recover in full.  I actually stopped the

>> statin drugs on my own AND informed my cardiologist that I was never

>> taking them again.  The first statin drug I took caused arrhythmias and

>> I didn't make the association until I had gone through many many months

>> of worry over heart health.

>>

>> One thing that benefited me that most people don't do is that I was

>> taking high dose CoQ10, something that is decreased significantly by

>> statin drugs.  I attribute this as partially responsible for my quick

>> and complete recovery.  Some of the people I know that have muscle pain

>> from statin drugs are still not fully recovered many years afterwards.

>> I'm sure they would be quite displease if they had had cognitive

>> performance and memory tests before and after their statin drug experience.

>>

>> So no, doctors rarely if ever report negative reactions to drugs.  I

>> doubt that if you were to talk to an average doctor that you will find

>> one that has ever filed and adverse reaction report with the FDA.

>> Doctors should be required to report all drugs that either didn't work,

>> or cause any form of side effect and that information, with personal

>> information removed, should be a database that is available to all

>> Americans to research.

>>

>> --

>>

>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

" The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you

run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher

" Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism "

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

------------------------------------