Re: To Mike re insensitivity

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

>describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was

>a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep,

>and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

>so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true

>brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

>groups of the Moonies.

There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

from basic stuff.

Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

extreme.

>What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

>movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

>certainly does, as do many rehabs.

Yeah, probably true.

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

>describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was

>a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep,

>and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

>so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true

>brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

>groups of the Moonies.

There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

from basic stuff.

Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

extreme.

>What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

>movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

>certainly does, as do many rehabs.

Yeah, probably true.

[Guest guest]

At 12:42 AM 5/19/01 -0400, you wrote:

Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by students of

>the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new religous

>movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

>brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do not

>result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get " unwashed "

>after sufficient time away from their captors.

>

>Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such, are

>highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn people

>into mindless drones. The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

>known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow out of

>the ideas shoved on them in rehab. But the vast, vast majority do not stay

>in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do it.

Hard to argue w/that. But then, as you point out, the Chinese captors

themselves didn't (couldn't) do it as the popular notions have it.

So perhaps the description turns out to be valid after all.

[Guest guest]

At 12:42 AM 5/19/01 -0400, you wrote:

Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by students of

>the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new religous

>movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

>brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do not

>result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get " unwashed "

>after sufficient time away from their captors.

>

>Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such, are

>highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn people

>into mindless drones. The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

>known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow out of

>the ideas shoved on them in rehab. But the vast, vast majority do not stay

>in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do it.

Hard to argue w/that. But then, as you point out, the Chinese captors

themselves didn't (couldn't) do it as the popular notions have it.

So perhaps the description turns out to be valid after all.

[Guest guest]

I looked up 'brainwashing' in Compton's Encyclopedia/Dictionary and it described the word as a colloquial word. I looked up 'colloquial' and it said it is informal, conversational, but in no way substandard or illiterate terminology.

In any case, there is a phenomenon where people can be placed under great duress, fearing for their life, and deprived of sleep, creature comforts(colloquial) and any outside stimuli, and they (most people) eventually crack(another unapproved term) and start complying with whatever the brainwasher wants them to say do, or think. It is a fact, that when the brainwashing influence is removed, most subjects return to their original mentality.

You said that many people do many awful things when told to do them by a group or authority figure, and some others resist with remarkable strength. I say this is where you 'see what someone is made of' -yet another colloquial , unapproved term( yet as valid as any medical terminology), -anyway, I am just saying, if you let some yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you feel deeply against doing, and you comply, without any significant duress placed upon you, you are a weak, wishy-washy person. That's the bottom line, and now people who this description applies to are going to start accusing me of being hateful, snide, and every other bad word they can come up with, in an effort to influence MY opinions the same way they let others influence THEIRS and then in their head, they are angry when I won't play the game they way they did, and start attacking me for dissenting.

The bottom line is, there are very many fucked up people in the world, for whom drugs and other behavioral problems are the symptom, not the root problem, and there are just as many exploitative people waiting out there to try to take advantage of those pathetic people. Please don't blame me for the way the world is, I didn't create it, and I am not able to change the way things are. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

I looked up 'brainwashing' in Compton's Encyclopedia/Dictionary and it described the word as a colloquial word. I looked up 'colloquial' and it said it is informal, conversational, but in no way substandard or illiterate terminology.

In any case, there is a phenomenon where people can be placed under great duress, fearing for their life, and deprived of sleep, creature comforts(colloquial) and any outside stimuli, and they (most people) eventually crack(another unapproved term) and start complying with whatever the brainwasher wants them to say do, or think. It is a fact, that when the brainwashing influence is removed, most subjects return to their original mentality.

You said that many people do many awful things when told to do them by a group or authority figure, and some others resist with remarkable strength. I say this is where you 'see what someone is made of' -yet another colloquial , unapproved term( yet as valid as any medical terminology), -anyway, I am just saying, if you let some yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you feel deeply against doing, and you comply, without any significant duress placed upon you, you are a weak, wishy-washy person. That's the bottom line, and now people who this description applies to are going to start accusing me of being hateful, snide, and every other bad word they can come up with, in an effort to influence MY opinions the same way they let others influence THEIRS and then in their head, they are angry when I won't play the game they way they did, and start attacking me for dissenting.

The bottom line is, there are very many fucked up people in the world, for whom drugs and other behavioral problems are the symptom, not the root problem, and there are just as many exploitative people waiting out there to try to take advantage of those pathetic people. Please don't blame me for the way the world is, I didn't create it, and I am not able to change the way things are. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

I looked up 'brainwashing' in Compton's Encyclopedia/Dictionary and it described the word as a colloquial word. I looked up 'colloquial' and it said it is informal, conversational, but in no way substandard or illiterate terminology.

In any case, there is a phenomenon where people can be placed under great duress, fearing for their life, and deprived of sleep, creature comforts(colloquial) and any outside stimuli, and they (most people) eventually crack(another unapproved term) and start complying with whatever the brainwasher wants them to say do, or think. It is a fact, that when the brainwashing influence is removed, most subjects return to their original mentality.

You said that many people do many awful things when told to do them by a group or authority figure, and some others resist with remarkable strength. I say this is where you 'see what someone is made of' -yet another colloquial , unapproved term( yet as valid as any medical terminology), -anyway, I am just saying, if you let some yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you feel deeply against doing, and you comply, without any significant duress placed upon you, you are a weak, wishy-washy person. That's the bottom line, and now people who this description applies to are going to start accusing me of being hateful, snide, and every other bad word they can come up with, in an effort to influence MY opinions the same way they let others influence THEIRS and then in their head, they are angry when I won't play the game they way they did, and start attacking me for dissenting.

The bottom line is, there are very many fucked up people in the world, for whom drugs and other behavioral problems are the symptom, not the root problem, and there are just as many exploitative people waiting out there to try to take advantage of those pathetic people. Please don't blame me for the way the world is, I didn't create it, and I am not able to change the way things are. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

This is extremely stupid, fighting and arguing over words, like Bill Clinton, or some other awful lawyer types in a courtroom. Mincing and quibbling over terminology is done only to prevent or delay real discussion of the issue at hand, i.e. 'It depends on what you mean by the word 'is' or 'here' or whatever that fucking terrible disgrace to the USA was quibbling about. Is that where we are at? If so, I have to kick myself for even being stupid enough to participate in his discussion. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another. If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive. More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot. The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot. I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers. It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one. Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

This is extremely stupid, fighting and arguing over words, like Bill Clinton, or some other awful lawyer types in a courtroom. Mincing and quibbling over terminology is done only to prevent or delay real discussion of the issue at hand, i.e. 'It depends on what you mean by the word 'is' or 'here' or whatever that fucking terrible disgrace to the USA was quibbling about. Is that where we are at? If so, I have to kick myself for even being stupid enough to participate in his discussion. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another. If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive. More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot. The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot. I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers. It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one. Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

This is extremely stupid, fighting and arguing over words, like Bill Clinton, or some other awful lawyer types in a courtroom. Mincing and quibbling over terminology is done only to prevent or delay real discussion of the issue at hand, i.e. 'It depends on what you mean by the word 'is' or 'here' or whatever that fucking terrible disgrace to the USA was quibbling about. Is that where we are at? If so, I have to kick myself for even being stupid enough to participate in his discussion. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another. If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive. More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot. The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot. I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers. It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one. Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

The reason people thought that the subjects were suggestible to execute orders at a later date was due to the not widely understood nature of brainwashing, -people didn't know that it was a temporary situation.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence? I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence. But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word? Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

The reason people thought that the subjects were suggestible to execute orders at a later date was due to the not widely understood nature of brainwashing, -people didn't know that it was a temporary situation.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence? I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence. But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word? Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

The reason people thought that the subjects were suggestible to execute orders at a later date was due to the not widely understood nature of brainwashing, -people didn't know that it was a temporary situation.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence? I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence. But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word? Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

the best way to get over it. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> >malgeo@... writes:

> >

> >

> >>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> >>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

> >

> >

> >I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

> >describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It

was

> >a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

sleep,

> >and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> >so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

true

> >brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

> >groups of the Moonies.

>

> There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

> from basic stuff.

>

> Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

> sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

> principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

> extreme.

>

> >What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> >movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> >certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> Yeah, probably true.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

the best way to get over it. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> >malgeo@... writes:

> >

> >

> >>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> >>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

> >

> >

> >I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

> >describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It

was

> >a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

sleep,

> >and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> >so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

true

> >brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

> >groups of the Moonies.

>

> There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

> from basic stuff.

>

> Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

> sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

> principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

> extreme.

>

> >What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> >movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> >certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> Yeah, probably true.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

the best way to get over it. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> >malgeo@... writes:

> >

> >

> >>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> >>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

> >

> >

> >I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

> >describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It

was

> >a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

sleep,

> >and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> >so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

true

> >brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

> >groups of the Moonies.

>

> There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

> from basic stuff.

>

> Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

> sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

> principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

> extreme.

>

> >What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> >movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> >certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> Yeah, probably true.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 10:26 AM 5/19/01 -0400, you wrote:

>I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

>only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

>real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

>the best way to get over it.

Mike, have you checked out some of these horror stories? " Total

physical control " is indeed part of some of them.

[Guest guest]

At 10:26 AM 5/19/01 -0400, you wrote:

>I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

>only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

>real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

>the best way to get over it.

Mike, have you checked out some of these horror stories? " Total

physical control " is indeed part of some of them.

[Guest guest]

At 10:26 AM 5/19/01 -0400, you wrote:

>I say again-without benefit of total physical control over the subject, it

>only works on weak, suggestible (contemptible, in my opinion) people. get

>real with yourself, if it is you, admit you are a lily livered loser, it is

>the best way to get over it.

Mike, have you checked out some of these horror stories? " Total

physical control " is indeed part of some of them.

[Guest guest]

Ken wrote:

>>To tell you the truth, I don't much care what

academic psychology nor those in religious studies say.  They are incapable of

being critical of the step groups.  If they can't see what is wrong with the

step groups, why should I take their word for anything?<<

Ken, that statement truly disturbs me, since it smacks of an anti-intellectualism I have learned is the proud attribute of the Steppers.

The fact is, students of religion very definitely do recognize XA as a "cult," and the aadeprogramming site has a link to an index maintained by the University of Virginia designating AA as a cult/new religious movement, and explaining why it has the hallmarks of one.

Further, 16 years ago when I took a fascinating course entitled "Cults in America," the very bright prof, Judith Weightman (who went on to make a bundle on Jeopardy, and who knows more about Jim and town than anyone I know) became a friend of mine. She was in AA at the time, and not only insisted that it was a "cult" as that term is meant in her area of study, but she taught that it was. The thing is, she does not use that term pejoratively.

Weightman further taught – and assigned scholarly articles in support of this view – that "brainwashing" is a largely discredited concept that simply is not a useful term vis-a-vis religious groups. By the standards most people use when applying the word, parochial schools, convents, and monasteries constitute cults in which brainwashing occurs.

The word cult simply mean: a religion I don't like. Brainwashing means: indoctrination that I don't like, in a religion that I don't like.

Now, I have not read Hassan's work, but the anti-cult movement promotes all sorts of unscholarly nonsense, that is not accepted by most students of religion. They frequently do this to justify their own criminal behavior that has been rejected by the courts. Behavior such as kidnaping adults and holding them prisoner to "deprogram" them.

AA is a religious movement. Many in AA deny that almost hysterically, but they are in, um, denial. I spend quite a bit of time in ab.alcohol debating with Steppers, and when I posted the link to the UVA site they were majorly pissed, and said they didn't care what the "airy fairy" thinking of academics was. I believe critics of AA should care. It separates us from the obscurantism and anti-intellectualism of the Steppers, and thereby should give us credibility.

AA is most problematic as a by-product of: (1) it usually being the only game in town that is presented as the "only way" in nearly every clinical setting, and by AA itself at the grassroots level, and (2) coerced attendance. By contrast, if AA was only one of, say, four equally respected routes to learning how to conquer problem drinking/drug abuse, we all would have a lot less animus toward it. It simply would not then be in a position to cause all the harm that it does.

After all, what's it to you or me if some self-described alcoholics wish to follow a neo-Calvinist path of sin and redemption to get sober? As long as vulnerable people in detox are not told they must follow that path, and courts ane employers don't insist that they do, there is no harm and no foul, except the harm done to those who voluntarily subject themselves to it. But as it stands, it is a somewhat cruel joke to describe AA as "voluntary," since one is informed that it is AA v. death, jail or institutions, and frequently there is a judge standing behind that threat ready and willing to make sure that at least jail is, indeed, a consequence of rejecting AA.

In sum: it is the de facto monopoly that AA has on "recovery," and the coercion embraced by the legal and employment sectors, that are the problems. But for those facts, it would just be a recovery option conducive only to those who actually want what it peddles. We don't need to employ inflammatory terms like "cult"or "brainwashing" to reject the fact that AA is a religious movement that indoctrinates people into falsely believing it is the only way to get and stay sober.

–Mona--

[Guest guest]

Ken wrote:

>>To tell you the truth, I don't much care what

academic psychology nor those in religious studies say.  They are incapable of

being critical of the step groups.  If they can't see what is wrong with the

step groups, why should I take their word for anything?<<

Ken, that statement truly disturbs me, since it smacks of an anti-intellectualism I have learned is the proud attribute of the Steppers.

The fact is, students of religion very definitely do recognize XA as a "cult," and the aadeprogramming site has a link to an index maintained by the University of Virginia designating AA as a cult/new religious movement, and explaining why it has the hallmarks of one.

Further, 16 years ago when I took a fascinating course entitled "Cults in America," the very bright prof, Judith Weightman (who went on to make a bundle on Jeopardy, and who knows more about Jim and town than anyone I know) became a friend of mine. She was in AA at the time, and not only insisted that it was a "cult" as that term is meant in her area of study, but she taught that it was. The thing is, she does not use that term pejoratively.

Weightman further taught – and assigned scholarly articles in support of this view – that "brainwashing" is a largely discredited concept that simply is not a useful term vis-a-vis religious groups. By the standards most people use when applying the word, parochial schools, convents, and monasteries constitute cults in which brainwashing occurs.

The word cult simply mean: a religion I don't like. Brainwashing means: indoctrination that I don't like, in a religion that I don't like.

Now, I have not read Hassan's work, but the anti-cult movement promotes all sorts of unscholarly nonsense, that is not accepted by most students of religion. They frequently do this to justify their own criminal behavior that has been rejected by the courts. Behavior such as kidnaping adults and holding them prisoner to "deprogram" them.

AA is a religious movement. Many in AA deny that almost hysterically, but they are in, um, denial. I spend quite a bit of time in ab.alcohol debating with Steppers, and when I posted the link to the UVA site they were majorly pissed, and said they didn't care what the "airy fairy" thinking of academics was. I believe critics of AA should care. It separates us from the obscurantism and anti-intellectualism of the Steppers, and thereby should give us credibility.

AA is most problematic as a by-product of: (1) it usually being the only game in town that is presented as the "only way" in nearly every clinical setting, and by AA itself at the grassroots level, and (2) coerced attendance. By contrast, if AA was only one of, say, four equally respected routes to learning how to conquer problem drinking/drug abuse, we all would have a lot less animus toward it. It simply would not then be in a position to cause all the harm that it does.

After all, what's it to you or me if some self-described alcoholics wish to follow a neo-Calvinist path of sin and redemption to get sober? As long as vulnerable people in detox are not told they must follow that path, and courts ane employers don't insist that they do, there is no harm and no foul, except the harm done to those who voluntarily subject themselves to it. But as it stands, it is a somewhat cruel joke to describe AA as "voluntary," since one is informed that it is AA v. death, jail or institutions, and frequently there is a judge standing behind that threat ready and willing to make sure that at least jail is, indeed, a consequence of rejecting AA.

In sum: it is the de facto monopoly that AA has on "recovery," and the coercion embraced by the legal and employment sectors, that are the problems. But for those facts, it would just be a recovery option conducive only to those who actually want what it peddles. We don't need to employ inflammatory terms like "cult"or "brainwashing" to reject the fact that AA is a religious movement that indoctrinates people into falsely believing it is the only way to get and stay sober.

–Mona--

[Guest guest]

Ken wrote:

>>To tell you the truth, I don't much care what

academic psychology nor those in religious studies say.  They are incapable of

being critical of the step groups.  If they can't see what is wrong with the

step groups, why should I take their word for anything?<<

Ken, that statement truly disturbs me, since it smacks of an anti-intellectualism I have learned is the proud attribute of the Steppers.

The fact is, students of religion very definitely do recognize XA as a "cult," and the aadeprogramming site has a link to an index maintained by the University of Virginia designating AA as a cult/new religious movement, and explaining why it has the hallmarks of one.

Further, 16 years ago when I took a fascinating course entitled "Cults in America," the very bright prof, Judith Weightman (who went on to make a bundle on Jeopardy, and who knows more about Jim and town than anyone I know) became a friend of mine. She was in AA at the time, and not only insisted that it was a "cult" as that term is meant in her area of study, but she taught that it was. The thing is, she does not use that term pejoratively.

Weightman further taught – and assigned scholarly articles in support of this view – that "brainwashing" is a largely discredited concept that simply is not a useful term vis-a-vis religious groups. By the standards most people use when applying the word, parochial schools, convents, and monasteries constitute cults in which brainwashing occurs.

The word cult simply mean: a religion I don't like. Brainwashing means: indoctrination that I don't like, in a religion that I don't like.

Now, I have not read Hassan's work, but the anti-cult movement promotes all sorts of unscholarly nonsense, that is not accepted by most students of religion. They frequently do this to justify their own criminal behavior that has been rejected by the courts. Behavior such as kidnaping adults and holding them prisoner to "deprogram" them.

AA is a religious movement. Many in AA deny that almost hysterically, but they are in, um, denial. I spend quite a bit of time in ab.alcohol debating with Steppers, and when I posted the link to the UVA site they were majorly pissed, and said they didn't care what the "airy fairy" thinking of academics was. I believe critics of AA should care. It separates us from the obscurantism and anti-intellectualism of the Steppers, and thereby should give us credibility.

AA is most problematic as a by-product of: (1) it usually being the only game in town that is presented as the "only way" in nearly every clinical setting, and by AA itself at the grassroots level, and (2) coerced attendance. By contrast, if AA was only one of, say, four equally respected routes to learning how to conquer problem drinking/drug abuse, we all would have a lot less animus toward it. It simply would not then be in a position to cause all the harm that it does.

After all, what's it to you or me if some self-described alcoholics wish to follow a neo-Calvinist path of sin and redemption to get sober? As long as vulnerable people in detox are not told they must follow that path, and courts ane employers don't insist that they do, there is no harm and no foul, except the harm done to those who voluntarily subject themselves to it. But as it stands, it is a somewhat cruel joke to describe AA as "voluntary," since one is informed that it is AA v. death, jail or institutions, and frequently there is a judge standing behind that threat ready and willing to make sure that at least jail is, indeed, a consequence of rejecting AA.

In sum: it is the de facto monopoly that AA has on "recovery," and the coercion embraced by the legal and employment sectors, that are the problems. But for those facts, it would just be a recovery option conducive only to those who actually want what it peddles. We don't need to employ inflammatory terms like "cult"or "brainwashing" to reject the fact that AA is a religious movement that indoctrinates people into falsely believing it is the only way to get and stay sober.

–Mona--

[Guest guest]

" . . .if you let some yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you

feel deeply against doing, and you comply, *without any significant

duress* [emphasis mine] placed upon you, *you are a weak, wishy-washy

person* [emphasis mine]. That's the bottom line, and now people who

this description applies to are going to start accusing me of being

hateful, snide, and every other bad word they can come up . . .

[blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda]

The point, I am thinking, is that people consider themselves to have

been *under* a state of duress. When you go to a professional,

without benefit of hindsight, and you are told you have two options,

abandon yourself to the groups or die, you might feel choosing one

above the other is a wise decision. I did. Especially at the age of

15. Every person in a position of authority in my life was pushing

me in that direction, some without an awareness of what was really

going on. There was nothing " wishy-washy " about my desire to change,

and I don't consider it " weak " to have gone about trying to find a

solution to my problem. I can't even imagine being compelled by a

judge to participate in 12-step religion against my will. It took

quite a bit of work for people to break me down, to get me in a

position of " powerlessness, " werein I might be willing to " turn over

my will. " And, news flash!, it didn't exactly take, in spite of

the " fact " I had two choices, submit or die. I was always suspicious

and critical. I was always told that was why it didn't work for me.

That's why I am a part of this group right now. That's " the bottom

line. " Why, exactly, are you here?

> I looked up 'brainwashing' in Compton's Encyclopedia/Dictionary and

it described the word as a colloquial word. I looked up 'colloquial'

and it said it is informal, conversational, but in no way substandard

or illiterate terminology.

> In any case, there is a phenomenon where people can be placed

under great duress, fearing for their life, and deprived of sleep,

creature comforts(colloquial) and any outside stimuli, and they (most

people) eventually crack(another unapproved term) and start complying

with whatever the brainwasher wants them to say do, or think. It is

a fact, that when the brainwashing influence is removed, most

subjects return to their original mentality.

> You said that many people do many awful things when told to do

them by a group or authority figure, and some others resist with

remarkable strength. I say this is where you 'see what someone is

made of' -yet another colloquial , unapproved term( yet as valid as

any medical terminology), -anyway, I am just saying, if you let some

yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you feel deeply against

doing, and you comply, without any significant duress placed upon

you, you are a weak, wishy-washy person. That's the bottom line, and

now people who this description applies to are going to start

accusing me of being hateful, snide, and every other bad word they

can come up with, in an effort to influence MY opinions the same way

they let others influence THEIRS and then in their head, they are

angry when I won't play the game they way they did, and start

attacking me for dissenting.

> The bottom line is, there are very many fucked up people in the

world, for whom drugs and other behavioral problems are the symptom,

not the root problem, and there are just as many exploitative

people waiting out there to try to take advantage of those pathetic

people. Please don't blame me for the way the world is, I didn't

create it, and I am not able to change the way things are. Mike.

> Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> malgeo@m... writes:

>

>

>

> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>

> I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term

coined to

> describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the

1950s. It was

> a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of

food, sleep,

> and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently

applied to

> so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually

practice true

> brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such

as fringe

> groups of the Moonies.

>

> What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other

religious

> movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination.

THAT AA

> certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> --Mona--

>

>

[Guest guest]

" . . .if you let some yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you

feel deeply against doing, and you comply, *without any significant

duress* [emphasis mine] placed upon you, *you are a weak, wishy-washy

person* [emphasis mine]. That's the bottom line, and now people who

this description applies to are going to start accusing me of being

hateful, snide, and every other bad word they can come up . . .

[blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda]

The point, I am thinking, is that people consider themselves to have

been *under* a state of duress. When you go to a professional,

without benefit of hindsight, and you are told you have two options,

abandon yourself to the groups or die, you might feel choosing one

above the other is a wise decision. I did. Especially at the age of

15. Every person in a position of authority in my life was pushing

me in that direction, some without an awareness of what was really

going on. There was nothing " wishy-washy " about my desire to change,

and I don't consider it " weak " to have gone about trying to find a

solution to my problem. I can't even imagine being compelled by a

judge to participate in 12-step religion against my will. It took

quite a bit of work for people to break me down, to get me in a

position of " powerlessness, " werein I might be willing to " turn over

my will. " And, news flash!, it didn't exactly take, in spite of

the " fact " I had two choices, submit or die. I was always suspicious

and critical. I was always told that was why it didn't work for me.

That's why I am a part of this group right now. That's " the bottom

line. " Why, exactly, are you here?

> I looked up 'brainwashing' in Compton's Encyclopedia/Dictionary and

it described the word as a colloquial word. I looked up 'colloquial'

and it said it is informal, conversational, but in no way substandard

or illiterate terminology.

> In any case, there is a phenomenon where people can be placed

under great duress, fearing for their life, and deprived of sleep,

creature comforts(colloquial) and any outside stimuli, and they (most

people) eventually crack(another unapproved term) and start complying

with whatever the brainwasher wants them to say do, or think. It is

a fact, that when the brainwashing influence is removed, most

subjects return to their original mentality.

> You said that many people do many awful things when told to do

them by a group or authority figure, and some others resist with

remarkable strength. I say this is where you 'see what someone is

made of' -yet another colloquial , unapproved term( yet as valid as

any medical terminology), -anyway, I am just saying, if you let some

yo-yo's suggest to you that you do things you feel deeply against

doing, and you comply, without any significant duress placed upon

you, you are a weak, wishy-washy person. That's the bottom line, and

now people who this description applies to are going to start

accusing me of being hateful, snide, and every other bad word they

can come up with, in an effort to influence MY opinions the same way

they let others influence THEIRS and then in their head, they are

angry when I won't play the game they way they did, and start

attacking me for dissenting.

> The bottom line is, there are very many fucked up people in the

world, for whom drugs and other behavioral problems are the symptom,

not the root problem, and there are just as many exploitative

people waiting out there to try to take advantage of those pathetic

people. Please don't blame me for the way the world is, I didn't

create it, and I am not able to change the way things are. Mike.

> Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> malgeo@m... writes:

>

>

>

> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>

> I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term

coined to

> describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the

1950s. It was

> a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of

food, sleep,

> and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently

applied to

> so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually

practice true

> brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such

as fringe

> groups of the Moonies.

>

> What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other

religious

> movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination.

THAT AA

> certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> --Mona--

>

>

[Guest guest]

paul diener wrote:

> Ken -

>

> You need to read the literature. The lady is 100% right.

,

I think you ought to read the literature. You are dead wrong. Might I suggest

Lifton's " Thought-Reform and the psychology of totalism: A study of

'brainwashing' in China, " Schein et al's " Coercive Persuasion, " and Steve

Hassan's " Combatting Cult Mind Control. "

>

>

> The " brainwashing " idea is hopelessly over-simplistic, and it is not

> accepted in academic psychology nor in religious studies.

>

_Which_ " brainwashing " idea? To tell you the truth, I don't much care what

academic psychology nor those in religious studies say. They are incapable of

being critical of the step groups. If they can't see what is wrong with the

step groups, why should I take their word for anything?

>

> Please, if your are going to claim otherwise, CITE SOURCES!

>

> Your naive idea of 'brainwashing' is very similar to the AA idea of

> 'addiction'. They say people become powerless over their behavior without

> being able to do anything about it. YOU say people become powerless over

> their behavior without being able to do anything about it.

I suppose your attempted hatchet job would be like me saying, there are a lot

of accidents on Dead Man's curve when the road isn't iced and you responding

that I have the same attitude toward highway safety as (powerless) as AA does

about drinking too much. I'm rather disappointed in you, your lack of

integrity here.

>

>

> Your - and AA's - fundamental idea is wrong. People are never powerless

> over what they think.

And who said people are powerless over what they think?

Ken Ragge

> (People certainly can be influenced, but the process

> is a complex one, and the person's own values and choice is always part of

> that process).

>

> Nobody is 'powerless' over an addiction, and nobody is powerless when

> confronted with a would-be 'brainwasher'. Neither the idea of 'addiction',

> nor the idea of 'brainwashing', - and they are very SIMILAR ideas - is

> valid.

>

> Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

> >

> >

> > MonaHolland@... wrote:

> >

> > > In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> > > kenr1@...

> > > writes:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

> > >> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

> > >

> > > Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> > > students of

> > > the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> > > religous

> > > movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> > > brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> > > not

> > > result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> > > " unwashed "

> > > after sufficient time away from their captors.

> >

> > Mona,

> >

> > " Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

> > make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

> > goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

> > they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

> > millions of believers.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> > > are

> > > highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> > > people

> > > into mindless drones.

> >

> > Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

> > thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

> > drones?

> >

> > I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

> >

> > > The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> > > known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> > > out of

> > > the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

> >

> > What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

> >

> > The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

> > much is _crammed_.

> >

> > > But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> > > in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> > >

> > > " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> > > it.

> > >

> >

> > Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

> > has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

> > stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

> > hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

> > can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

> > they are to remain abstinent?

> >

> > Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

> > view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

> > conversion.

> >

> > Ken Ragge

> >

> > >

> > > --Mona--

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >