Re: To Mike re insensitivity

[Guest guest]

Most Americans want to just look

out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Poor deluded fools.

Social good and

abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

People who are preoccupied with abstract truth to exclusion of practical efforts to change the significant problem at hand, are of little value. I'd rather deal with a CEO spewing useful widgets that improve the quality of life for consumers, than some pie-in-the-sky theorist who contributes *nothing to the communal project of earning a decent living and thereby enhancing the quality of life for many or all.

That I can purchase ready made clothes and wash them and dry them in a nice machine, is true progress. These things and their myriad technological counterparts have contributed more to my quality of life than most social theories, and certainly notions of "false consciousness," combined.

--Mona--(who wonders why you aren't expending your energies in a socialist forum somewhere, if you think Rita and others are so misguided in "merely" opposing Stepism)

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Most Americans want to just look

out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Poor deluded fools.

Social good and

abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

People who are preoccupied with abstract truth to exclusion of practical efforts to change the significant problem at hand, are of little value. I'd rather deal with a CEO spewing useful widgets that improve the quality of life for consumers, than some pie-in-the-sky theorist who contributes *nothing to the communal project of earning a decent living and thereby enhancing the quality of life for many or all.

That I can purchase ready made clothes and wash them and dry them in a nice machine, is true progress. These things and their myriad technological counterparts have contributed more to my quality of life than most social theories, and certainly notions of "false consciousness," combined.

--Mona--(who wonders why you aren't expending your energies in a socialist forum somewhere, if you think Rita and others are so misguided in "merely" opposing Stepism)

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Most Americans want to just look

out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Poor deluded fools.

Social good and

abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

People who are preoccupied with abstract truth to exclusion of practical efforts to change the significant problem at hand, are of little value. I'd rather deal with a CEO spewing useful widgets that improve the quality of life for consumers, than some pie-in-the-sky theorist who contributes *nothing to the communal project of earning a decent living and thereby enhancing the quality of life for many or all.

That I can purchase ready made clothes and wash them and dry them in a nice machine, is true progress. These things and their myriad technological counterparts have contributed more to my quality of life than most social theories, and certainly notions of "false consciousness," combined.

--Mona--(who wonders why you aren't expending your energies in a socialist forum somewhere, if you think Rita and others are so misguided in "merely" opposing Stepism)

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

-

Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S. justifies

middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass poverty

of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men, and so

on?

This is a typical bourgeois-feminist ploy. Here is how the hustle works.

First, we get reminded that, at AT & T, only 18% of the top executive slots

are filled by women, or some such.

Then, statistics on rape are trotted out to prove institutional sexism

exists. (The statistics may be exaggerated; though even one rape is

terrible, and too many).

The best way to deal with the 'institutional sexism' problem, the story

goes on, is by the 'trickle down' method.

Conclusion: we need to promote those hard-working female execs at AT & T.

Not to do so would be " soul rape " of the female executive.

This Gloria Steinhem schtick is narcissistic bull. The higher up the

income scale you go, the more women embrace it. You see damn few female

minimum-wage workers on the Oprah Show.

Bourgeoise-feminist claptrap isn't innocent. When you take this logic to

its conclusion, you end up with air crews that are 50% female flying

missions in Colombia. Bourgeoise feminism doesn't stop imperialism, or even

slow it down. It just just promises to make imperialist mass-murder gender

neutral.

Some of the biggest mouths bleating 'recovery movement' B.S., by the way,

are 'feminists'.

Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for presenting

FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her succcinct

presentation of her case. Many others have described similar cases, of

course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly unique

or extreme.)

What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

She was NOT raped. She was NOT " soul raped. " And AA in the workplace is

NOT the biggest, or only, problem in American economic life, or in the

American imperial system.

Highly-emotional hyperbole gets bruited about, Orwell warned, for

POLITICAL reasons.

Rita is a relatively well-paid worker in a government-regulated industry.

She wrapped herself in the flag and the Bill of Rights, and took her case to

court. Because she adopted this CONSERVATIVE tactic, the powers that be may

well let her slide by with a slap on the wrist.

However, looking at America's 'anti-addiction crusade' through the sort of

CONSERVATIVE lens that Rita offers does little to help us understand what is

going on. The biggest problems of the anti-addiction crusade DO NOT occur

amongst the American labor aristocracy. We CANNOT confront the

anti-addiction zealots merely by relying on the Bill of Rights and the legal

system. And the evils of the anti-addiction crusade are NOT limited to the

12-Step Movement.

What is most interesting and important about the 12-Step movement is

exactly how it CONNECTS to the rest of the anti-addiction, 'spiritual'

revolution that is transforming America. Rita's hyperbole draws our

attention away from these connections. It is right, therefore, to criticize

her hyperbole.

You ask about my personal background. I live a reasonably consistent

life, and, in fact, have faced exactly the same sort of workplace problem

Rita has faced. (In academics, though, and teaching and publishing

'unacceptable ideas' was the bone of contention; alcohol and drugs never

came up). I reacted to my own situation differently than did Rita, but

then, I did not have a child to worry about supporting. It is not,

therefore, that I am unsympathetic to Rita. It is, rather, that I think it

is very important to think clearly and rationally about the dangers of the

anti-addiction, 'spiritual' revolution in America. Over-emotional hyperbole

about the 12-Step movement - " soul rape " - does more harm than good.

.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> Hello ,

> >

> > You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been

> raped.

> > And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally

> murdered.

>

> There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

> respond to this point.

>

> Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

> victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

> attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close to 1

> in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are raped

> annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per capita

> murder rate in the world.

>

> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

>

> As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports, but

> surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported. It is

> considered the most accurate source of data available.

>

> The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I applaud

> anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

> that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore being

> used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought this

> issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this sort

> of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

>

> In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their power, not

> infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is dished

> out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell me,

> what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so disgusted

> with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

>

> Hicks

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S. justifies

middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass poverty

of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men, and so

on?

This is a typical bourgeois-feminist ploy. Here is how the hustle works.

First, we get reminded that, at AT & T, only 18% of the top executive slots

are filled by women, or some such.

Then, statistics on rape are trotted out to prove institutional sexism

exists. (The statistics may be exaggerated; though even one rape is

terrible, and too many).

The best way to deal with the 'institutional sexism' problem, the story

goes on, is by the 'trickle down' method.

Conclusion: we need to promote those hard-working female execs at AT & T.

Not to do so would be " soul rape " of the female executive.

This Gloria Steinhem schtick is narcissistic bull. The higher up the

income scale you go, the more women embrace it. You see damn few female

minimum-wage workers on the Oprah Show.

Bourgeoise-feminist claptrap isn't innocent. When you take this logic to

its conclusion, you end up with air crews that are 50% female flying

missions in Colombia. Bourgeoise feminism doesn't stop imperialism, or even

slow it down. It just just promises to make imperialist mass-murder gender

neutral.

Some of the biggest mouths bleating 'recovery movement' B.S., by the way,

are 'feminists'.

Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for presenting

FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her succcinct

presentation of her case. Many others have described similar cases, of

course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly unique

or extreme.)

What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

She was NOT raped. She was NOT " soul raped. " And AA in the workplace is

NOT the biggest, or only, problem in American economic life, or in the

American imperial system.

Highly-emotional hyperbole gets bruited about, Orwell warned, for

POLITICAL reasons.

Rita is a relatively well-paid worker in a government-regulated industry.

She wrapped herself in the flag and the Bill of Rights, and took her case to

court. Because she adopted this CONSERVATIVE tactic, the powers that be may

well let her slide by with a slap on the wrist.

However, looking at America's 'anti-addiction crusade' through the sort of

CONSERVATIVE lens that Rita offers does little to help us understand what is

going on. The biggest problems of the anti-addiction crusade DO NOT occur

amongst the American labor aristocracy. We CANNOT confront the

anti-addiction zealots merely by relying on the Bill of Rights and the legal

system. And the evils of the anti-addiction crusade are NOT limited to the

12-Step Movement.

What is most interesting and important about the 12-Step movement is

exactly how it CONNECTS to the rest of the anti-addiction, 'spiritual'

revolution that is transforming America. Rita's hyperbole draws our

attention away from these connections. It is right, therefore, to criticize

her hyperbole.

You ask about my personal background. I live a reasonably consistent

life, and, in fact, have faced exactly the same sort of workplace problem

Rita has faced. (In academics, though, and teaching and publishing

'unacceptable ideas' was the bone of contention; alcohol and drugs never

came up). I reacted to my own situation differently than did Rita, but

then, I did not have a child to worry about supporting. It is not,

therefore, that I am unsympathetic to Rita. It is, rather, that I think it

is very important to think clearly and rationally about the dangers of the

anti-addiction, 'spiritual' revolution in America. Over-emotional hyperbole

about the 12-Step movement - " soul rape " - does more harm than good.

.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> Hello ,

> >

> > You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been

> raped.

> > And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally

> murdered.

>

> There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

> respond to this point.

>

> Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

> victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

> attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close to 1

> in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are raped

> annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per capita

> murder rate in the world.

>

> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

>

> As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports, but

> surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported. It is

> considered the most accurate source of data available.

>

> The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I applaud

> anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

> that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore being

> used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought this

> issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this sort

> of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

>

> In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their power, not

> infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is dished

> out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell me,

> what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so disgusted

> with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

>

> Hicks

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people here

will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to POW's

whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and imbrues

good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

> unless

> > you

> > > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

> > being a

> > > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

> > insulting

> > > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else

dissenting?

> > > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > > >

> > > -------------

> > >

> > > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

> you

> > said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are

" hypocrites "

> > because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

> > custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

> > insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement

(especially

> > coerced involvement) with AA.

> > >

> > > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

> > award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2

months,

> > not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because

> they

> > were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at

pretending

> > to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

> > depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

> > treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

> > terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I

was

> > brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had

to

> > rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

> > please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> > " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

> right

> > " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times.

> Do

> > you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

> > >

> > > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

> > Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " --

> that

> > if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

> > just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

> > Welfare??

> > >

> > > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

> caused

> > pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> > >

> > > ~Rita

> > >

> > > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

> > moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and

for

> > membership.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people here

will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to POW's

whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and imbrues

good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

> unless

> > you

> > > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

> > being a

> > > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

> > insulting

> > > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else

dissenting?

> > > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > > >

> > > -------------

> > >

> > > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

> you

> > said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are

" hypocrites "

> > because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

> > custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

> > insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement

(especially

> > coerced involvement) with AA.

> > >

> > > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

> > award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2

months,

> > not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because

> they

> > were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at

pretending

> > to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

> > depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

> > treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

> > terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I

was

> > brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had

to

> > rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

> > please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> > " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

> right

> > " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times.

> Do

> > you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

> > >

> > > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

> > Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " --

> that

> > if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

> > just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

> > Welfare??

> > >

> > > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

> caused

> > pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> > >

> > > ~Rita

> > >

> > > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

> > moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and

for

> > membership.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Good God! How can anyone in this group claim the high ground when it

comes to hyperbole! Most of us can see that Rita was not suggesting

her " soul rape " equated to physical rape! And certainly most of us

are sophisticated enough to know she was not actually

raped! As for exaggeration:

Dangerous? Is that because what people say in this Yahoo group has a

dramatic impact on the the day to day lives of ordinary people?

Is the Gestapo monitoring our every word?

How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

Someone needs to go outside and get some fresh air and a little

perspective.

-

> >

> > Hello ,

> > >

> > > You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY

been

> > raped.

> > > And I have met the family members of people who have been

brutally

> > murdered.

> >

> > There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

> > respond to this point.

> >

> > Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

> > victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

> > attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close

to 1

> > in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are

raped

> > annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per

capita

> > murder rate in the world.

> >

> > http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

> >

> > As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports,

but

> > surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported.

It is

> > considered the most accurate source of data available.

> >

> > The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I

applaud

> > anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

> > that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore

being

> > used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought

this

> > issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this

sort

> > of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

> >

> > In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their

power, not

> > infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is

dished

> > out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell

me,

> > what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so

disgusted

> > with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

> >

> > Hicks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Good God! How can anyone in this group claim the high ground when it

comes to hyperbole! Most of us can see that Rita was not suggesting

her " soul rape " equated to physical rape! And certainly most of us

are sophisticated enough to know she was not actually

raped! As for exaggeration:

Dangerous? Is that because what people say in this Yahoo group has a

dramatic impact on the the day to day lives of ordinary people?

Is the Gestapo monitoring our every word?

How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

Someone needs to go outside and get some fresh air and a little

perspective.

-

> >

> > Hello ,

> > >

> > > You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY

been

> > raped.

> > > And I have met the family members of people who have been

brutally

> > murdered.

> >

> > There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

> > respond to this point.

> >

> > Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

> > victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

> > attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close

to 1

> > in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are

raped

> > annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per

capita

> > murder rate in the world.

> >

> > http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

> >

> > As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports,

but

> > surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported.

It is

> > considered the most accurate source of data available.

> >

> > The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I

applaud

> > anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

> > that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore

being

> > used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought

this

> > issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this

sort

> > of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

> >

> > In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their

power, not

> > infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is

dished

> > out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell

me,

> > what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so

disgusted

> > with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

> >

> > Hicks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison to

the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

starting blocks....

[Guest guest]

At 12:03 AM 5/19/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote:

>

>

>> How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

>

>Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

Godwin's Law (originally applies only to Usenet, but seems to also

work well for mailing lists like this one), short definition:

<http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/g/godwinslaw.html>

More than you wanted to know:

<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/>

>thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison to

>the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

>automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

>starting blocks....

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 12:03 AM 5/19/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote:

>

>

>> How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

>

>Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

Godwin's Law (originally applies only to Usenet, but seems to also

work well for mailing lists like this one), short definition:

<http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/g/godwinslaw.html>

More than you wanted to know:

<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/>

>thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison to

>the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

>automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

>starting blocks....

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 07:21 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people here

>will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to POW's

>whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and imbrues

>good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

[Guest guest]

>

> > How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

>

> Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

> thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison

to

> the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

> automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

> starting blocks....

In fairness, perhaps he *hasn't* heared of Icke. lol

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/index.html

Mack ;-)

[Guest guest]

>

> > How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

>

> Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

> thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison

to

> the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

> automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

> starting blocks....

In fairness, perhaps he *hasn't* heared of Icke. lol

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/index.html

Mack ;-)

[Guest guest]

>

> > How many more Nazi extrapolations do we have to endure?

>

> Anyone remember the name of that cyber Law about as the length of a

> thread grows, the probability that someone will make a comparison

to

> the Nazis will approach unity. By convention the first to do it

> automatically loses the debate. I dont think gets out of the

> starting blocks....

In fairness, perhaps he *hasn't* heared of Icke. lol

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/index.html

Mack ;-)

[Guest guest]

As a matter of fact, 12-Step "treatment" and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by students of the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new religous movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do not result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get "unwashed" after sufficient time away from their captors.

Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such, are highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn people into mindless drones. The problem is that in most places, AA is the only known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow out of the ideas shoved on them in rehab. But the vast, vast majority do not stay in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not "brainwashed" in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

As a matter of fact, 12-Step "treatment" and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by students of the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new religous movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do not result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get "unwashed" after sufficient time away from their captors.

Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such, are highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn people into mindless drones. The problem is that in most places, AA is the only known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow out of the ideas shoved on them in rehab. But the vast, vast majority do not stay in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not "brainwashed" in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

As a matter of fact, 12-Step "treatment" and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by students of the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new religous movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do not result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get "unwashed" after sufficient time away from their captors.

Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such, are highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn people into mindless drones. The problem is that in most places, AA is the only known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow out of the ideas shoved on them in rehab. But the vast, vast majority do not stay in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not "brainwashed" in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 07:21 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people

here

> >will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to

POW's

> >whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and

imbrues

> >good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

>

> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 07:21 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people

here

> >will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to

POW's

> >whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and

imbrues

> >good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

>

> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> At 07:21 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

> >Perhaps brainwashing might be called 'soul rape' but then again people

here

> >will call anything brain washing, with no respect or sensitivity to

POW's

> >whop actually endured brainwashing. The popular lingo hijacks and

imbrues

> >good solid scientific words with emotional, sentimental hogwash. Mike.

>

> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You write:

Most Americans accept the 'addiction' myths because not to

> accept them gets one into serious trouble. Most Americans want to

just look

> out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Which is why standing up to it, and holding to a personal belief in

spite of this is a courageous thing, despite your belittling it.

Social good and

> abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

And yet, you have provided no concrete examples of what you mean by

this, nor examples of your own behavior that supports " social good. "

All you've done is slam people. What the hell good is that?

[Guest guest]

,

You write:

Most Americans accept the 'addiction' myths because not to

> accept them gets one into serious trouble. Most Americans want to

just look

> out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Which is why standing up to it, and holding to a personal belief in

spite of this is a courageous thing, despite your belittling it.

Social good and

> abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

And yet, you have provided no concrete examples of what you mean by

this, nor examples of your own behavior that supports " social good. "

All you've done is slam people. What the hell good is that?

[Guest guest]

,

You write:

Most Americans accept the 'addiction' myths because not to

> accept them gets one into serious trouble. Most Americans want to

just look

> out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck.

Which is why standing up to it, and holding to a personal belief in

spite of this is a courageous thing, despite your belittling it.

Social good and

> abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

And yet, you have provided no concrete examples of what you mean by

this, nor examples of your own behavior that supports " social good. "

All you've done is slam people. What the hell good is that?