Re: To Mike re insensitivity

[Guest guest]

Your comment that you " don't give a shit about what is happening in

Colombia " is exactly the point I was making.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

> >

> > -

> >

> > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

> >

> > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> justifies

> > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass

> poverty

> > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men,

> and so

> > on?

>

> No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your own

> back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is happening in

> Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker is,

> neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

>

> <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> >

> > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> presenting

> > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> succcinct

> > presentation of her case.

>

> I sure missed that one.

>

> Many others have described similar cases,

> of

> > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly

> unique

> > or extreme.)

> >

> > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

>

> This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in the

> matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans becoming

> Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that specifically

> because you do know that she is Jewish.

>

> Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you have

> an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in browbeating...I do

> have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to you.

>

> Hicks

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your comment that you " don't give a shit about what is happening in

Colombia " is exactly the point I was making.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

> >

> > -

> >

> > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

> >

> > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> justifies

> > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass

> poverty

> > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men,

> and so

> > on?

>

> No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your own

> back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is happening in

> Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker is,

> neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

>

> <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> >

> > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> presenting

> > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> succcinct

> > presentation of her case.

>

> I sure missed that one.

>

> Many others have described similar cases,

> of

> > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly

> unique

> > or extreme.)

> >

> > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

>

> This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in the

> matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans becoming

> Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that specifically

> because you do know that she is Jewish.

>

> Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you have

> an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in browbeating...I do

> have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to you.

>

> Hicks

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just seen a post on the IDAA ( International Doctors in AA ) .

Some chap in 12 weeks into a rehab programme committed suicide .

The conclusion was that he was one of the unfortunates who didnt get the

programme .

Perhaps severe depression got overlooked , if so that is criminal .

[Guest guest]

Just seen a post on the IDAA ( International Doctors in AA ) .

Some chap in 12 weeks into a rehab programme committed suicide .

The conclusion was that he was one of the unfortunates who didnt get the

programme .

Perhaps severe depression got overlooked , if so that is criminal .

[Guest guest]

Just seen a post on the IDAA ( International Doctors in AA ) .

Some chap in 12 weeks into a rehab programme committed suicide .

The conclusion was that he was one of the unfortunates who didnt get the

programme .

Perhaps severe depression got overlooked , if so that is criminal .

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> kenr1@...

> writes:

>

>

>

>> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

>> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

>

> Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> students of

> the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> religous

> movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> not

> result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> " unwashed "

> after sufficient time away from their captors.

Mona,

" Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

millions of believers.

>

>

> Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> are

> highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> people

> into mindless drones.

Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

drones?

I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

> The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> out of

> the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

much is _crammed_.

> But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

>

> " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> it.

>

Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

they are to remain abstinent?

Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

conversion.

Ken Ragge

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> kenr1@...

> writes:

>

>

>

>> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

>> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

>

> Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> students of

> the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> religous

> movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> not

> result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> " unwashed "

> after sufficient time away from their captors.

Mona,

" Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

millions of believers.

>

>

> Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> are

> highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> people

> into mindless drones.

Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

drones?

I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

> The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> out of

> the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

much is _crammed_.

> But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

>

> " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> it.

>

Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

they are to remain abstinent?

Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

conversion.

Ken Ragge

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

Ken -

You need to read the literature. The lady is 100% right.

The " brainwashing " idea is hopelessly over-simplistic, and it is not

accepted in academic psychology nor in religious studies.

Please, if your are going to claim otherwise, CITE SOURCES!

Your naive idea of 'brainwashing' is very similar to the AA idea of

'addiction'. They say people become powerless over their behavior without

being able to do anything about it. YOU say people become powerless over

their behavior without being able to do anything about it.

Your - and AA's - fundamental idea is wrong. People are never powerless

over what they think. (People certainly can be influenced, but the process

is a complex one, and the person's own values and choice is always part of

that process).

Nobody is 'powerless' over an addiction, and nobody is powerless when

confronted with a would-be 'brainwasher'. Neither the idea of 'addiction',

nor the idea of 'brainwashing', - and they are very SIMILAR ideas - is

valid.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> > kenr1@...

> > writes:

> >

> >

> >

> >> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

> >> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

> >

> > Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> > students of

> > the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> > religous

> > movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> > brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> > not

> > result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> > " unwashed "

> > after sufficient time away from their captors.

>

> Mona,

>

> " Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

> make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

> goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

> they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

> millions of believers.

>

> >

> >

> > Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> > are

> > highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> > people

> > into mindless drones.

>

> Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

> thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

> drones?

>

> I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

>

> > The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> > known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> > out of

> > the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

>

> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

> much is _crammed_.

>

> > But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> > in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> >

> > " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> > it.

> >

>

> Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

> has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

> stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

> hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

> can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

> they are to remain abstinent?

>

> Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

> view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

> conversion.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> >

> > --Mona--

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken -

You need to read the literature. The lady is 100% right.

The " brainwashing " idea is hopelessly over-simplistic, and it is not

accepted in academic psychology nor in religious studies.

Please, if your are going to claim otherwise, CITE SOURCES!

Your naive idea of 'brainwashing' is very similar to the AA idea of

'addiction'. They say people become powerless over their behavior without

being able to do anything about it. YOU say people become powerless over

their behavior without being able to do anything about it.

Your - and AA's - fundamental idea is wrong. People are never powerless

over what they think. (People certainly can be influenced, but the process

is a complex one, and the person's own values and choice is always part of

that process).

Nobody is 'powerless' over an addiction, and nobody is powerless when

confronted with a would-be 'brainwasher'. Neither the idea of 'addiction',

nor the idea of 'brainwashing', - and they are very SIMILAR ideas - is

valid.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> > kenr1@...

> > writes:

> >

> >

> >

> >> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

> >> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

> >

> > Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> > students of

> > the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> > religous

> > movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> > brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> > not

> > result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> > " unwashed "

> > after sufficient time away from their captors.

>

> Mona,

>

> " Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

> make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

> goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

> they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

> millions of believers.

>

> >

> >

> > Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> > are

> > highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> > people

> > into mindless drones.

>

> Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

> thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

> drones?

>

> I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

>

> > The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> > known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> > out of

> > the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

>

> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

> much is _crammed_.

>

> > But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> > in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> >

> > " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> > it.

> >

>

> Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

> has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

> stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

> hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

> can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

> they are to remain abstinent?

>

> Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

> view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

> conversion.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> >

> > --Mona--

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken -

You need to read the literature. The lady is 100% right.

The " brainwashing " idea is hopelessly over-simplistic, and it is not

accepted in academic psychology nor in religious studies.

Please, if your are going to claim otherwise, CITE SOURCES!

Your naive idea of 'brainwashing' is very similar to the AA idea of

'addiction'. They say people become powerless over their behavior without

being able to do anything about it. YOU say people become powerless over

their behavior without being able to do anything about it.

Your - and AA's - fundamental idea is wrong. People are never powerless

over what they think. (People certainly can be influenced, but the process

is a complex one, and the person's own values and choice is always part of

that process).

Nobody is 'powerless' over an addiction, and nobody is powerless when

confronted with a would-be 'brainwasher'. Neither the idea of 'addiction',

nor the idea of 'brainwashing', - and they are very SIMILAR ideas - is

valid.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 5/18/01 8:58:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> > kenr1@...

> > writes:

> >

> >

> >

> >> As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

> >> Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

> >

> > Well, I can only tell you that this is not generally accepted by

> > students of

> > the sociology of religion, at least not with regard to most new

> > religous

> > movements. (I only know this because that was my BA major.) Chinese

> > brainwashing techniques, for one thing, are highly overrated, and do

> > not

> > result in Manchurian Candidates. That is, people's brains get

> > " unwashed "

> > after sufficient time away from their captors.

>

> Mona,

>

> " Over-rated " ? How so? Where did you get the idea they were trying to

> make " Manchurian Candidates " ? That was not their goal at all. Their

> goal was to cure disease, just like AA and the other step groups. While

> they didn't make Manchurian Candidates, they did create hundreds of

> millions of believers.

>

> >

> >

> > Certainly some rehabs, those practicing EST-type techniques and such,

> > are

> > highly abusive. They cause great psychic harm. But they do not turn

> > people

> > into mindless drones.

>

> Where do you get your " mindless drones " from? Who suggested that

> thought-reform/ coercive persuasion/ brainwashing results in mindless

> drones?

>

> I wouldn't call Bill or Marty Mann a mindless drone.

>

> > The problem is that in most places, AA is the only

> > known path to sobriety, so people seldom have an opportunity to grow

> > out of

> > the ideas shoved on them in rehab.

>

> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> The very popular Minnesota Model is not big on direct coercion. Not

> much is _crammed_.

>

> > But the vast, vast majority do not stay

> > in AA and are not still sober one year later, so clearly they were not

> >

> > " brainwashed " in rehab a la the conceptions of the way the Chinese do

> > it.

> >

>

> Because those who go through treatment are unlikely to remain abstinent

> has nothing to do with it. Has their confidence in their ability to

> stay abstinent been undermined? (e.g. " tilling the black soil of

> hopelessness " ) Do they believe (or fear) they have a disease which they

> can't control? Do they come to believe that " AA is the only way " if

> they are to remain abstinent?

>

> Treatment's goal is a shift in world view toward the AA/Oxford world

> view. " Alcoholism " is only one of over 1000 possible levers for

> conversion.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> >

> > --Mona--

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I read Strange Gods when it first came out. Kind of a popular work, as I remember, but excellent. Ken needs to read it.

With your background, you absolutely need to read some of the material on fascism and spirituality. It will blow your mind. Just blow your mind. Terrifying, really.

My training was in anthro, and I did my dissertation field work in Guatemala with Chorti Maya, focusing on religion and political change. Anthros still use the 'revitalization'/'crisis cult' concepts, but the cult concept has mostly dropped out of the religion journals. You see the acronym NRM mostly. Something is lost, since sects with firm borders, distinctive clothing and language markers, clear-cut doctrines, etc, are very different from amorphous cults.

Weston La Barre, in a review article on Crisis Cults some years ago coined the phrase 'cults of the haves', and the early precursors of Nazism into this category. AA fits in here, too, with the Betty Ford center being sort of a cult center.

awrs from a is used frequently.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic. The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion. 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere I largely agree with all of that, and said as much in a nutshell version in a post to Ken earlier. That said, some of the San Francisco Moonies did use techniques similar to those ascribed to the Communist Chinese, insofar as they employed sleep- and food-deprivation techniques, and other tools employed by the communist Chinese. During the red hysteria of the 50s the much-ballyhooed results of the Chinese were simply an overwrought credulity that was wholly unmerited. As I posted to Ken, the Manchurian Candidate has never existed. Also, I agree that the word "cult" is best avoided, altho scholars of religion do employ it among themselves, but in an academic, non-pejorative sense. Most of them do, as you point out, prefer to speak of "new religions." One of the better books on the subjects is Shupe and Bromley's, STRANGE GODS: THE GREAT AMERICAN CULT SCARE. Many anti-AA critics refer to it as a cult. I know what they mean, and I largely agree with what they intend to convey by that word, but I do not use that term vis-a-vis AA, anymore than I apply it to the Moonies. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 11:19:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> kenr1@...

> writes:

>

>

>

>> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who

> have

> become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab,

> that

> means abstinence.

>

> But with regard to the term " brainwashing, " what do you mean by the

> word?

Mona,

" Brainwashing " is a literal translation of a Chinese term for their

re-education program. It is about " washing " or " cleaning " the mind of

thoughts inconsistent with doctrine. Other terms which have been used

are " coercive persuasion " and " thought reform, " both of which are

probably much better, because people tend to confuse the word

" brainwashing " with the plots from B movies.

>

> Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist

> Chinese

> sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who

> would carry

> out Peking's orders?

But they weren't and didn't.

> That is what most people -- certainly most in my

> parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of

> brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a

> film

> pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian

> Candidate.

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American " addiction treatment. "

Ken Ragge

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 11:19:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> kenr1@...

> writes:

>

>

>

>> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who

> have

> become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab,

> that

> means abstinence.

>

> But with regard to the term " brainwashing, " what do you mean by the

> word?

Mona,

" Brainwashing " is a literal translation of a Chinese term for their

re-education program. It is about " washing " or " cleaning " the mind of

thoughts inconsistent with doctrine. Other terms which have been used

are " coercive persuasion " and " thought reform, " both of which are

probably much better, because people tend to confuse the word

" brainwashing " with the plots from B movies.

>

> Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist

> Chinese

> sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who

> would carry

> out Peking's orders?

But they weren't and didn't.

> That is what most people -- certainly most in my

> parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of

> brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a

> film

> pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian

> Candidate.

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American " addiction treatment. "

Ken Ragge

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 11:19:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> kenr1@...

> writes:

>

>

>

>> What do you mean by " path to sobriety " ? Don't you mean abstinence?

>

> I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who

> have

> become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab,

> that

> means abstinence.

>

> But with regard to the term " brainwashing, " what do you mean by the

> word?

Mona,

" Brainwashing " is a literal translation of a Chinese term for their

re-education program. It is about " washing " or " cleaning " the mind of

thoughts inconsistent with doctrine. Other terms which have been used

are " coercive persuasion " and " thought reform, " both of which are

probably much better, because people tend to confuse the word

" brainwashing " with the plots from B movies.

>

> Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist

> Chinese

> sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who

> would carry

> out Peking's orders?

But they weren't and didn't.

> That is what most people -- certainly most in my

> parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of

> brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a

> film

> pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian

> Candidate.

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American " addiction treatment. "

Ken Ragge

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 10:44:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> pauldiener@... writes:

>

>

>

>> The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the

>> 'cult'

>> concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation,

>> the

>> values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and

>>

>> ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account.

>> The idea

>> of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

>>

>> The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion.

>>

>> 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere

>

> I largely agree with all of that, and said as much in a nutshell

> version in a

> post to Ken earlier. That said, some of the San Francisco Moonies did

> use

> techniques similar to those ascribed to the Communist Chinese, insofar

> as

> they employed sleep- and food-deprivation techniques, and other tools

> employed by the communist Chinese.

Mona,

Where did you get the idea that the Chinese used sleep- and

food-deprivation as part of their re-education?

> During the red hysteria of the 50s the

> much-ballyhooed results of the Chinese were simply an overwrought

> credulity

> that was wholly unmerited. As I posted to Ken, the Manchurian

> Candidate has

> never existed.

>

But who suggested the Manchurian Candidate existed? Where did you get

that from? Why do you think it at all important to inject in this

thread?

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> > > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States.

So?

> > >

> > > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> > justifies

> > > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the

mass

> > poverty

> > > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND

men,

> > and so

> > > on?

> >

> > No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> > " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your

own

> > back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is

happening in

> > Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker

is,

> > neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

> >

> > <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> > >

> > > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> > presenting

> > > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> > succcinct

> > > presentation of her case.

> >

> > I sure missed that one.

> >

> > Many others have described similar cases,

> > of

> > > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is

hardly

> > unique

> > > or extreme.)

> > >

> > > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

> >

> > This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in

the

> > matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans

becoming

> > Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that

specifically

> > because you do know that she is Jewish.

> >

> > Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you

have

> > an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> > responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in

browbeating...I do

> > have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to

you.

> >

> > Hicks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> > > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States.

So?

> > >

> > > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> > justifies

> > > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the

mass

> > poverty

> > > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND

men,

> > and so

> > > on?

> >

> > No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> > " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your

own

> > back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is

happening in

> > Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker

is,

> > neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

> >

> > <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> > >

> > > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> > presenting

> > > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> > succcinct

> > > presentation of her case.

> >

> > I sure missed that one.

> >

> > Many others have described similar cases,

> > of

> > > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is

hardly

> > unique

> > > or extreme.)

> > >

> > > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

> >

> > This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in

the

> > matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans

becoming

> > Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that

specifically

> > because you do know that she is Jewish.

> >

> > Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you

have

> > an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> > responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in

browbeating...I do

> > have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to

you.

> >

> > Hicks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> > > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States.

So?

> > >

> > > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> > justifies

> > > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the

mass

> > poverty

> > > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND

men,

> > and so

> > > on?

> >

> > No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> > " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your

own

> > back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is

happening in

> > Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker

is,

> > neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

> >

> > <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> > >

> > > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> > presenting

> > > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> > succcinct

> > > presentation of her case.

> >

> > I sure missed that one.

> >

> > Many others have described similar cases,

> > of

> > > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is

hardly

> > unique

> > > or extreme.)

> > >

> > > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

> >

> > This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in

the

> > matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans

becoming

> > Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that

specifically

> > because you do know that she is Jewish.

> >

> > Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you

have

> > an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> > responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in

browbeating...I do

> > have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to

you.

> >

> > Hicks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

>

This is absolutely riveting and chilling, ! Thanks for posting this

link.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

>

This is absolutely riveting and chilling, ! Thanks for posting this

link.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

>

This is absolutely riveting and chilling, ! Thanks for posting this

link.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

At 09:01 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

>mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter.

Yup.

The most extreme cases of brainwashing techniques are

usually found in centers which specialize in young folks.

The inmates may be deprived of food, sleep, etc. They

may be beaten. They may not be allowed basic personal

care such as showers and toothbrushing.

Check out the stories on this page:

http://straightinc.homestead.com/

And there are lots more. It isn't just the notorious Straight.

With centers specializing in adults, the abuse is usually less

extreme. If you physically lock up an adult, you'd better have

a damn good reason -- adults have more recourse and more

legal options. I've never heard of beatings in a center for

adults, either, although such may have occurred.

It's worth noting that 12-steppers regularly threaten people

with " jails, institutions, and death " if they aren't obeyed.

Amazing though it may seem to those of us on this list,

some people hear this so often that they begin to believe

it. It doesn't hurt that some people are desperate when they

first seek this " help. "

I've known at least a few people who, as far as I can tell,

really do believe that they will die if they leave the 12-step

program.

[Guest guest]

At 09:01 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

>mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter.

Yup.

The most extreme cases of brainwashing techniques are

usually found in centers which specialize in young folks.

The inmates may be deprived of food, sleep, etc. They

may be beaten. They may not be allowed basic personal

care such as showers and toothbrushing.

Check out the stories on this page:

http://straightinc.homestead.com/

And there are lots more. It isn't just the notorious Straight.

With centers specializing in adults, the abuse is usually less

extreme. If you physically lock up an adult, you'd better have

a damn good reason -- adults have more recourse and more

legal options. I've never heard of beatings in a center for

adults, either, although such may have occurred.

It's worth noting that 12-steppers regularly threaten people

with " jails, institutions, and death " if they aren't obeyed.

Amazing though it may seem to those of us on this list,

some people hear this so often that they begin to believe

it. It doesn't hurt that some people are desperate when they

first seek this " help. "

I've known at least a few people who, as far as I can tell,

really do believe that they will die if they leave the 12-step

program.

[Guest guest]

At 09:01 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your

>mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter.

Yup.

The most extreme cases of brainwashing techniques are

usually found in centers which specialize in young folks.

The inmates may be deprived of food, sleep, etc. They

may be beaten. They may not be allowed basic personal

care such as showers and toothbrushing.

Check out the stories on this page:

http://straightinc.homestead.com/

And there are lots more. It isn't just the notorious Straight.

With centers specializing in adults, the abuse is usually less

extreme. If you physically lock up an adult, you'd better have

a damn good reason -- adults have more recourse and more

legal options. I've never heard of beatings in a center for

adults, either, although such may have occurred.

It's worth noting that 12-steppers regularly threaten people

with " jails, institutions, and death " if they aren't obeyed.

Amazing though it may seem to those of us on this list,

some people hear this so often that they begin to believe

it. It doesn't hurt that some people are desperate when they

first seek this " help. "

I've known at least a few people who, as far as I can tell,

really do believe that they will die if they leave the 12-step

program.

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>>But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>>tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

>

>I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined to

>describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was

>a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep,

>and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

>so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true

>brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe

>groups of the Moonies.

There are some real horror stories out there, including deprivation

from basic stuff.

Even in centers which don't starve people or deprive them of

sleep, the process is totally immersive by design. The same

principles are used, even when the abuse aspects are less

extreme.

>What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

>movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

>certainly does, as do many rehabs.

Yeah, probably true.