Re: To Mike re insensitivity

[Guest guest]

http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.htmlOf particular interest (to me just now anyway): Click Here- Re: To Mike re insensitivity---The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your-mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

[Guest guest]

http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.htmlOf particular interest (to me just now anyway): Click Here- Re: To Mike re insensitivity---The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at your-mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

[Guest guest]

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> Good God! How can anyone in this group claim the high ground when it

> comes to hyperbole!

I can. I have been playing Hyper-Bowl nearly non-stop. As you know,

it is possible to pick up extra points as you roll your virtual ball down

the lane, by assembling a natty pro bowler outfit from the pro shop (I found

the plain trousers get a higher score) and ordering beers from the snack

bar.

I have gone from getting the occasional spare (and even some open

frames) to occasional perfect games while earning many extra points, and

solving the hidden puzzles.

My last score was 4,287,965 points in a single game! I claim the

high ground in Hyper-Bowl on this group, and challenge all of you to an

online tournament.

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

> Good God! How can anyone in this group claim the high ground when it

> comes to hyperbole!

I can. I have been playing Hyper-Bowl nearly non-stop. As you know,

it is possible to pick up extra points as you roll your virtual ball down

the lane, by assembling a natty pro bowler outfit from the pro shop (I found

the plain trousers get a higher score) and ordering beers from the snack

bar.

I have gone from getting the occasional spare (and even some open

frames) to occasional perfect games while earning many extra points, and

solving the hidden puzzles.

My last score was 4,287,965 points in a single game! I claim the

high ground in Hyper-Bowl on this group, and challenge all of you to an

online tournament.

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion.

'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere

I largely agree with all of that, and said as much in a nutshell version in a post to Ken earlier. That said, some of the San Francisco Moonies did use techniques similar to those ascribed to the Communist Chinese, insofar as they employed sleep- and food-deprivation techniques, and other tools employed by the communist Chinese. During the red hysteria of the 50s the much-ballyhooed results of the Chinese were simply an overwrought credulity that was wholly unmerited. As I posted to Ken, the Manchurian Candidate has never existed.

Also, I agree that the word "cult" is best avoided, altho scholars of religion do employ it among themselves, but in an academic, non-pejorative sense. Most of them do, as you point out, prefer to speak of "new religions." One of the better books on the subjects is Shupe and Bromley's, STRANGE GODS: THE GREAT AMERICAN CULT SCARE.

Many anti-AA critics refer to it as a cult. I know what they mean, and I largely agree with what they intend to convey by that word, but I do not use that term vis-a-vis AA, anymore than I apply it to the Moonies.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion.

'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere

I largely agree with all of that, and said as much in a nutshell version in a post to Ken earlier. That said, some of the San Francisco Moonies did use techniques similar to those ascribed to the Communist Chinese, insofar as they employed sleep- and food-deprivation techniques, and other tools employed by the communist Chinese. During the red hysteria of the 50s the much-ballyhooed results of the Chinese were simply an overwrought credulity that was wholly unmerited. As I posted to Ken, the Manchurian Candidate has never existed.

Also, I agree that the word "cult" is best avoided, altho scholars of religion do employ it among themselves, but in an academic, non-pejorative sense. Most of them do, as you point out, prefer to speak of "new religions." One of the better books on the subjects is Shupe and Bromley's, STRANGE GODS: THE GREAT AMERICAN CULT SCARE.

Many anti-AA critics refer to it as a cult. I know what they mean, and I largely agree with what they intend to convey by that word, but I do not use that term vis-a-vis AA, anymore than I apply it to the Moonies.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion.

'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere

I largely agree with all of that, and said as much in a nutshell version in a post to Ken earlier. That said, some of the San Francisco Moonies did use techniques similar to those ascribed to the Communist Chinese, insofar as they employed sleep- and food-deprivation techniques, and other tools employed by the communist Chinese. During the red hysteria of the 50s the much-ballyhooed results of the Chinese were simply an overwrought credulity that was wholly unmerited. As I posted to Ken, the Manchurian Candidate has never existed.

Also, I agree that the word "cult" is best avoided, altho scholars of religion do employ it among themselves, but in an academic, non-pejorative sense. Most of them do, as you point out, prefer to speak of "new religions." One of the better books on the subjects is Shupe and Bromley's, STRANGE GODS: THE GREAT AMERICAN CULT SCARE.

Many anti-AA critics refer to it as a cult. I know what they mean, and I largely agree with what they intend to convey by that word, but I do not use that term vis-a-vis AA, anymore than I apply it to the Moonies.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

> The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at

your

> mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

And *exactly* the state quite a few heavy drinkers get to in their

addiction. Even then, I wouldn't guarantee that all of these are

susceptible to AA indoctrination. Were it true " brain-washing " then

it might be different. Sure, one may indeed HOPE (to hell!) this AA

is going to be " the answer " especially if one has experienced the

gravest consequences of drinking. But I think you'll find that there

are quite a number who do indeed " fake it to make it " as they just

try to ignore the worst iniquities perpetrated in the name of the

fellowship.

Also, I'd note that many brain washed (by convention?) cult members

seem rather fit and healthy, when put alongside so many AA recruits.

AAs, Indoctrinated? Yes, probably. But many people simply aren't that

gullible. Many are just *fearful* of relapse (sure, indoctrinated),

but as Nate described rather well, just have a huge vested interest.

Mack

[Guest guest]

> The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at

your

> mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

And *exactly* the state quite a few heavy drinkers get to in their

addiction. Even then, I wouldn't guarantee that all of these are

susceptible to AA indoctrination. Were it true " brain-washing " then

it might be different. Sure, one may indeed HOPE (to hell!) this AA

is going to be " the answer " especially if one has experienced the

gravest consequences of drinking. But I think you'll find that there

are quite a number who do indeed " fake it to make it " as they just

try to ignore the worst iniquities perpetrated in the name of the

fellowship.

Also, I'd note that many brain washed (by convention?) cult members

seem rather fit and healthy, when put alongside so many AA recruits.

AAs, Indoctrinated? Yes, probably. But many people simply aren't that

gullible. Many are just *fearful* of relapse (sure, indoctrinated),

but as Nate described rather well, just have a huge vested interest.

Mack

[Guest guest]

> The first requirement for brainwashing is that the subject is at

your

> mercy, literally. Life and death, food, clothes & shelter. Mike.

And *exactly* the state quite a few heavy drinkers get to in their

addiction. Even then, I wouldn't guarantee that all of these are

susceptible to AA indoctrination. Were it true " brain-washing " then

it might be different. Sure, one may indeed HOPE (to hell!) this AA

is going to be " the answer " especially if one has experienced the

gravest consequences of drinking. But I think you'll find that there

are quite a number who do indeed " fake it to make it " as they just

try to ignore the worst iniquities perpetrated in the name of the

fellowship.

Also, I'd note that many brain washed (by convention?) cult members

seem rather fit and healthy, when put alongside so many AA recruits.

AAs, Indoctrinated? Yes, probably. But many people simply aren't that

gullible. Many are just *fearful* of relapse (sure, indoctrinated),

but as Nate described rather well, just have a huge vested interest.

Mack

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence?

I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence.

But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word?

Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence?

I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence.

But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word?

Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by "path to sobriety"? Don't you mean abstinence?

I mean way to stay sober as opposed to drunk. For most people who have become alcohol-dependent so severely that they had to detox in rehab, that means abstinence.

But with regard to the term "brainwashing," what do you mean by the word?

Have you never heard or read that it was thought that the communist Chinese sent American soldiers back to the U.S. as programmed drones, who would carry out Peking's orders? That is what most people -- certainly most in my parents' generation -- understood as the meaning and purpose of brainwashing. Because that is so, in the early 1960s Hollywood made a film pandering to this widespread fear, and it was titled The Manchurian Candidate.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."

Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another.

If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive.

More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot.

The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot.

I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers.

It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one.

Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."

Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another.

If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive.

More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot.

The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot.

I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers.

It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one.

Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

And the widespread fear has _nothing_ to do with what happened in

Chinese re-education and what happens in American "addiction treatment."

Ok, then we are really only having a disagreement over the wisdom of employing the term "brainwashing" given what it means connotatively. Most think of it as a means by which persons are robbed of their free will and programmed to carry out the will of another.

If you mean something analogous to Chinese "re-eduction" techniques, then we are on the same page with regard to *some rehabs. Mine was 12-Step based, but the in-patient portion only really pushed Stepism during the one group meeting per afternoon. I found the in-patient part to be mostly positive.

More problematic, by very far, was the after-care program, which was overtly religious, and I was horrified to find that a young man there was participating as part of a plea bargain to reduce his time for dealing pot.

The Director humiliated him, and asked him to own responsibility for the damage he caused to children. Did he sell to children? No. But she said he sold to people who had kids, and so promoted children seeing people smoke pot.

I was absolutely flabbergasted, and asked her if the owners of the liquor stores in our town should be forced to participate in a 12-Step program, and be humiliated for what they were ostensibly doing to the children. She didn't like that one bit, since the licit status of alcohol really could not be invoked as a distinction in that context. This was ot my only uppity question, and I was beginning to generate a lot of hostility from the staff and the long-time steppers.

It was just one of the sickest experiences I have ever had -- the crowning moment was when the counselor in the three-hour step group insisted I could find a HP, if I just thought about it long enough, and he pointed to the coffee table and said I could use a styrofoam cup for my HP, as long as I had one.

Now, my brain was still somewhat addled at this point, due to the alcohol consumption that lead me to rehab. But that level of bullshit was impossible to mistake for sanity, drunk or sober. I stopped participating after four days of this crap, which I was free to do because I was there voluntarily.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>

>> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

> I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined

> to

> describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s.

> It was

> a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

> sleep,

> and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

> true

> brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as

> fringe

> groups of the Moonies.

> What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> --Mona--

Mona,

If what AA and other religious movements do is only " heavy-handed

indoctrination, " then that is all the Chinese Communists did.

Certainly, we got this image of bamboo shoots under the fingernails and

various and sundry other tortures. However, that has nothing to do with

Chinese Communist " brainwashing, " " thought reform " " coercive persuasion "

or " re-education. " As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

There was this one poor soul reported by Lifton who had been an Oxford

Grouper when he was put through " re-education. " His comment on leaving

China was that he was struck by the similarities between the two

programs. I've often wondered if the Chinese got their " program " from

Buchman, since Buchman was in China as early as 1918 and the reason why

he hated the Communists so was that many of the groupers when they

became disillusioned with Buchmanism defected to the communists.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>

>> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

> I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined

> to

> describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s.

> It was

> a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

> sleep,

> and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

> true

> brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as

> fringe

> groups of the Moonies.

> What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> --Mona--

Mona,

If what AA and other religious movements do is only " heavy-handed

indoctrination, " then that is all the Chinese Communists did.

Certainly, we got this image of bamboo shoots under the fingernails and

various and sundry other tortures. However, that has nothing to do with

Chinese Communist " brainwashing, " " thought reform " " coercive persuasion "

or " re-education. " As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

There was this one poor soul reported by Lifton who had been an Oxford

Grouper when he was put through " re-education. " His comment on leaving

China was that he was struck by the similarities between the two

programs. I've often wondered if the Chinese got their " program " from

Buchman, since Buchman was in China as early as 1918 and the reason why

he hated the Communists so was that many of the groupers when they

became disillusioned with Buchmanism defected to the communists.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/18/01 5:28:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> malgeo@... writes:

>

>

>

>> But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

>> tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

>

> I really have to question that, since " brainwashing " is a term coined

> to

> describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s.

> It was

> a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food,

> sleep,

> and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to

> so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice

> true

> brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as

> fringe

> groups of the Moonies.

> What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious

> movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA

> certainly does, as do many rehabs.

>

> --Mona--

Mona,

If what AA and other religious movements do is only " heavy-handed

indoctrination, " then that is all the Chinese Communists did.

Certainly, we got this image of bamboo shoots under the fingernails and

various and sundry other tortures. However, that has nothing to do with

Chinese Communist " brainwashing, " " thought reform " " coercive persuasion "

or " re-education. " As a matter of fact, 12-Step " treatment " and Chinese

Communist re-education are, for all practical purposes, identical.

There was this one poor soul reported by Lifton who had been an Oxford

Grouper when he was put through " re-education. " His comment on leaving

China was that he was struck by the similarities between the two

programs. I've often wondered if the Chinese got their " program " from

Buchman, since Buchman was in China as early as 1918 and the reason why

he hated the Communists so was that many of the groupers when they

became disillusioned with Buchmanism defected to the communists.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

>

> -

>

> Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

>

> Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

justifies

> middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass

poverty

> of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men,

and so

> on?

No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

" world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your own

back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is happening in

Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker is,

neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

<snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

>

> Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

presenting

> FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

succcinct

> presentation of her case.

I sure missed that one.

Many others have described similar cases,

of

> course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly

unique

> or extreme.)

>

> What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in the

matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans becoming

Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that specifically

because you do know that she is Jewish.

Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you have

an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in browbeating...I do

have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to you.

Hicks

[Guest guest]

>

> -

>

> Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

>

> Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

justifies

> middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass

poverty

> of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men,

and so

> on?

No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

" world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your own

back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is happening in

Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker is,

neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

<snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

>

> Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

presenting

> FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

succcinct

> presentation of her case.

I sure missed that one.

Many others have described similar cases,

of

> course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly

unique

> or extreme.)

>

> What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in the

matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans becoming

Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that specifically

because you do know that she is Jewish.

Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you have

an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in browbeating...I do

have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to you.

Hicks

[Guest guest]

'Brainwashing' is a political term, not a valid psychological concept.

The idea was originally formulated in an attempt to explain away the embarassing behavior of some U.S. P.O.W.s during the Korean conflict. In short order, though, it was strongly criticized. Few, maybe no, academic psychologists would employ the concept today.

Human beings are suggestible, of course. But the processes by which people come to affiliate with new groups and adopt a new ideology, or by which they are led to do surprising things under the direction of authority figures, are much more complex that the 'brainwashing' concept implies.

People are dynamic actors. They make choices in new situations based upon THEIR values. If you look at the most cited classical studies in this area - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - you do NOT find brainwashing.

What you do find is that some people do terrible things when encouraged by a group, or by an authority figure. But other people resist tremendous pressure without bending. The make-up of the individual, the nature of the group or authority figure providing the social influence, and the specific new behavior that is being encouraged all play into the process. The result is both dynamic and complex. The simplistic idea of 'brainwashing' is flat-out wrong..

Remember, at My Lai, most of the troops joined in the killing. But several American soldiers risked their OWN lives to try to stop what was going on.

You get the same pattern in the Nazi extermination camp literature. Some prisoners - even some who were highly respected as "humanists" before being arrested by the Nazis - ended up behaving very badly in the camps. Other prisoners behaved with great courage and humanism under the same set of pressures. (Jehovah's Witnesses, for reasons I can't explain, seem to have behaved particularly nobly in the death camps).

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion. 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere).

See Marc Galanter's 1983 article in the Amer. Jour. of Psychiatry on the Unification Church. The group is also discussed in his book, Cults, Faith Healing, and Coercion, 1989, Oxford.

Two facts about the Moonies are particularly salient:

1) many recruits into the movement drop a harmful alcohol or drug habit, and,

2) the movement has strong political overtones of an extreme, right-wing nature. Both of these characteristics - 'abstinence' ideology and extreme right-wing political ideas - are common in many of the 'new religions' popping up in the West. Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

'Brainwashing' is a political term, not a valid psychological concept.

The idea was originally formulated in an attempt to explain away the embarassing behavior of some U.S. P.O.W.s during the Korean conflict. In short order, though, it was strongly criticized. Few, maybe no, academic psychologists would employ the concept today.

Human beings are suggestible, of course. But the processes by which people come to affiliate with new groups and adopt a new ideology, or by which they are led to do surprising things under the direction of authority figures, are much more complex that the 'brainwashing' concept implies.

People are dynamic actors. They make choices in new situations based upon THEIR values. If you look at the most cited classical studies in this area - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - you do NOT find brainwashing.

What you do find is that some people do terrible things when encouraged by a group, or by an authority figure. But other people resist tremendous pressure without bending. The make-up of the individual, the nature of the group or authority figure providing the social influence, and the specific new behavior that is being encouraged all play into the process. The result is both dynamic and complex. The simplistic idea of 'brainwashing' is flat-out wrong..

Remember, at My Lai, most of the troops joined in the killing. But several American soldiers risked their OWN lives to try to stop what was going on.

You get the same pattern in the Nazi extermination camp literature. Some prisoners - even some who were highly respected as "humanists" before being arrested by the Nazis - ended up behaving very badly in the camps. Other prisoners behaved with great courage and humanism under the same set of pressures. (Jehovah's Witnesses, for reasons I can't explain, seem to have behaved particularly nobly in the death camps).

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion. 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere).

See Marc Galanter's 1983 article in the Amer. Jour. of Psychiatry on the Unification Church. The group is also discussed in his book, Cults, Faith Healing, and Coercion, 1989, Oxford.

Two facts about the Moonies are particularly salient:

1) many recruits into the movement drop a harmful alcohol or drug habit, and,

2) the movement has strong political overtones of an extreme, right-wing nature. Both of these characteristics - 'abstinence' ideology and extreme right-wing political ideas - are common in many of the 'new religions' popping up in the West. Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

'Brainwashing' is a political term, not a valid psychological concept.

The idea was originally formulated in an attempt to explain away the embarassing behavior of some U.S. P.O.W.s during the Korean conflict. In short order, though, it was strongly criticized. Few, maybe no, academic psychologists would employ the concept today.

Human beings are suggestible, of course. But the processes by which people come to affiliate with new groups and adopt a new ideology, or by which they are led to do surprising things under the direction of authority figures, are much more complex that the 'brainwashing' concept implies.

People are dynamic actors. They make choices in new situations based upon THEIR values. If you look at the most cited classical studies in this area - Milgram, Zimbardo, etc. - you do NOT find brainwashing.

What you do find is that some people do terrible things when encouraged by a group, or by an authority figure. But other people resist tremendous pressure without bending. The make-up of the individual, the nature of the group or authority figure providing the social influence, and the specific new behavior that is being encouraged all play into the process. The result is both dynamic and complex. The simplistic idea of 'brainwashing' is flat-out wrong..

Remember, at My Lai, most of the troops joined in the killing. But several American soldiers risked their OWN lives to try to stop what was going on.

You get the same pattern in the Nazi extermination camp literature. Some prisoners - even some who were highly respected as "humanists" before being arrested by the Nazis - ended up behaving very badly in the camps. Other prisoners behaved with great courage and humanism under the same set of pressures. (Jehovah's Witnesses, for reasons I can't explain, seem to have behaved particularly nobly in the death camps).

The story is the same in the modern 'new religions' literature (the 'cult' concept is sort of out of vogue). The specifics of the situation, the values and personality of the potential recruit, and the make-up and ideology of the 'new religion' all have to be taken into account. The idea of 'brainwashing' is hopelessly oversimplistic.

The Moonies (Unification Church) are a well-studied new religion. 'Brainwashing' does NOT apply to them (but, then, it applies nowhere).

See Marc Galanter's 1983 article in the Amer. Jour. of Psychiatry on the Unification Church. The group is also discussed in his book, Cults, Faith Healing, and Coercion, 1989, Oxford.

Two facts about the Moonies are particularly salient:

1) many recruits into the movement drop a harmful alcohol or drug habit, and,

2) the movement has strong political overtones of an extreme, right-wing nature. Both of these characteristics - 'abstinence' ideology and extreme right-wing political ideas - are common in many of the 'new religions' popping up in the West. Re: To Mike re insensitivity

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling. I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies. What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

Your comment that you " don't give a shit about what is happening in

Colombia " is exactly the point I was making.

Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>

> >

> > -

> >

> > Assaults, including rape, occur in the United States. So?

> >

> > Are you suggesting that the existence of rape in the U.S.

> justifies

> > middle-class feminists who ignore the invasion of Colombia, the mass

> poverty

> > of most of the world, the homelessness of millions of women AND men,

> and so

> > on?

>

> No. I was suggesting that by your continual focus on Columbia and

> " world " problems you were overlooking the shit happening in your own

> back yard. Personally, I don't give a fuck about what is happening in

> Columbia. I can't afford to, whatever you may think. The kicker is,

> neither do you. Here, there or anywhere.

>

> <snip STRAWMAN AFTER STRAWMAN>

> >

> > Let us set the record straight. Nobody criticized Rita for

> presenting

> > FACTS. (I, for one, have in the past complimented her on her

> succcinct

> > presentation of her case.

>

> I sure missed that one.

>

> Many others have described similar cases,

> of

> > course, and lots of people have LOST jobs, so Rita's case is hardly

> unique

> > or extreme.)

> >

> > What Rita was criticized for was EXAGGERATION and HYPERBOLE.

>

> This is the living end! FUCK YOU! Comparing Rita's actions in the

> matter of ending 12-step coersion in her workplace to Germans becoming

> Nazis is not HYPERBOLE to you....? IMO, you chose that specifically

> because you do know that she is Jewish.

>

> Your words in these last few posts do not convince me that you have

> an interest in helping anyone or in any sort of " social

> responsibility. " You seem to be interested only in browbeating...I do

> have to applaud Rita for her measured and reasoned response to you.

>

> Hicks

>

>

>

>

>