Re: To Mike re insensitivity

[Guest guest]

Rita -

Isn't it time you, and a lot of other whiners, grew up?

Unions in your sector of the economy are NOT supposed to 'represent

workers'. They are supposed to manage dissent and CONTROL workers. In your

case, they did just about what one might have expected them to do. If you

don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody says you HAVE to work

in that high-paid job with the good benefits, you know.

So they sent you to the EAP and you got browbeaten. What the hell did you

expect? You present yourself as touchy with a lot of resentments. The boss

was apparently looking for a way to get you. It doesn't matter that your

personal work performance was good - you are part of a team, and your

ATTITUDE was bad. From the bosses viewpoint, that made HIS job harder. Of

course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The Big

Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also says

what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher powers

say 'Boo!'

You complain that the EAP would not let you return to work until you

changed your 'attitude'. BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR! After years,

you still don't get the picture? AA, and the War On Drugs, are NOT about

alcohol or drugs - they are about political and work ATTITUDES. Were you

willing to be 'powerless'? Did you tell the EAP people you would kiss the

ass of the local higher powers? Why is it so hard for you to accept that

THAT is what they wanted?

You want the nice paycheck and good benefits that comes with working in

the government-regulated sector of the American economy? Then shut up and

kiss ass like everyone else. Or, at least, take the consequences of NOT

shutting up without all the self-pity.

You seem to have the bizarre idea that you can work for the Nazis, get all

the perks and benefits that the Nazi system has to offer, yet somehow you

ought to be exempt from saluting the swastika. You seem to think you can

join the Marine Corps, but then you should be allowed to live as a pacifist.

Totally unrealistic, infantile, and narcissistic!

You have a choice. If you want to be free from indoctrination and

harassment, quit the damn job. If you choose to stay, then take the

paycheck, but stop whining about what comes with it.

We have 2 million people in prison in this country. The streets are

filled with homeless. In Colombia, the American drug warriors are killing

dozens of innocent civilians every week. The inconveniences that

middle-class Americans face with 12-Step propaganda and indoctrination is

about the LEAST of the evils of the Drug War (evil though it be).

An adult takes personal disappointments and puts them into wider

perspective. An adult is able to understand when his or her own

difficulties are only a minor part of a larger system of evil. An adult

doesn't continue to whine about minor personal hurts, when other people are

suffering much greater pain. In short, an adult is able to place personal

experience into SOCIAL perspective. An adult doesn't focus on personal

affronts, an adult devotes him- or herself to the GENERAL good.

There are very few adults in the 12-Step Movement - and just as few in the

anti-12-Step Movement. Instead, what one hears in both is unrealistic,

narcissistic and infantile personal bitching.

A middle-class individual working for the goddamn goverment - or in one of

its regulated industries - who whines on and on and on about their 'soul

rape' makes me want to puke.

You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been raped.

And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally murdered.

Your 'soul rape', Rita, doesn't even come close. And your fat paycheck

helps you bear the pain, I am sure.

The U.S. is filled with disgruntled narcissists. It doesn't matter what

movement they join. All the movements clamor about basically the same

thing: " Me! Me! Me! " It is rarely that an individual comes out of the

12-Step Movement with an interest in the bigger picture. Instead, the

anti-AA types all want to tell THEIR story. Just like in an AA meeting.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me thi!

> s way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rita -

Isn't it time you, and a lot of other whiners, grew up?

Unions in your sector of the economy are NOT supposed to 'represent

workers'. They are supposed to manage dissent and CONTROL workers. In your

case, they did just about what one might have expected them to do. If you

don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody says you HAVE to work

in that high-paid job with the good benefits, you know.

So they sent you to the EAP and you got browbeaten. What the hell did you

expect? You present yourself as touchy with a lot of resentments. The boss

was apparently looking for a way to get you. It doesn't matter that your

personal work performance was good - you are part of a team, and your

ATTITUDE was bad. From the bosses viewpoint, that made HIS job harder. Of

course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The Big

Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also says

what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher powers

say 'Boo!'

You complain that the EAP would not let you return to work until you

changed your 'attitude'. BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR! After years,

you still don't get the picture? AA, and the War On Drugs, are NOT about

alcohol or drugs - they are about political and work ATTITUDES. Were you

willing to be 'powerless'? Did you tell the EAP people you would kiss the

ass of the local higher powers? Why is it so hard for you to accept that

THAT is what they wanted?

You want the nice paycheck and good benefits that comes with working in

the government-regulated sector of the American economy? Then shut up and

kiss ass like everyone else. Or, at least, take the consequences of NOT

shutting up without all the self-pity.

You seem to have the bizarre idea that you can work for the Nazis, get all

the perks and benefits that the Nazi system has to offer, yet somehow you

ought to be exempt from saluting the swastika. You seem to think you can

join the Marine Corps, but then you should be allowed to live as a pacifist.

Totally unrealistic, infantile, and narcissistic!

You have a choice. If you want to be free from indoctrination and

harassment, quit the damn job. If you choose to stay, then take the

paycheck, but stop whining about what comes with it.

We have 2 million people in prison in this country. The streets are

filled with homeless. In Colombia, the American drug warriors are killing

dozens of innocent civilians every week. The inconveniences that

middle-class Americans face with 12-Step propaganda and indoctrination is

about the LEAST of the evils of the Drug War (evil though it be).

An adult takes personal disappointments and puts them into wider

perspective. An adult is able to understand when his or her own

difficulties are only a minor part of a larger system of evil. An adult

doesn't continue to whine about minor personal hurts, when other people are

suffering much greater pain. In short, an adult is able to place personal

experience into SOCIAL perspective. An adult doesn't focus on personal

affronts, an adult devotes him- or herself to the GENERAL good.

There are very few adults in the 12-Step Movement - and just as few in the

anti-12-Step Movement. Instead, what one hears in both is unrealistic,

narcissistic and infantile personal bitching.

A middle-class individual working for the goddamn goverment - or in one of

its regulated industries - who whines on and on and on about their 'soul

rape' makes me want to puke.

You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been raped.

And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally murdered.

Your 'soul rape', Rita, doesn't even come close. And your fat paycheck

helps you bear the pain, I am sure.

The U.S. is filled with disgruntled narcissists. It doesn't matter what

movement they join. All the movements clamor about basically the same

thing: " Me! Me! Me! " It is rarely that an individual comes out of the

12-Step Movement with an interest in the bigger picture. Instead, the

anti-AA types all want to tell THEIR story. Just like in an AA meeting.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me thi!

> s way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Clear, precise and accurate , if a little harsh. Ignorance fosters the

attitudes you complain so ferverently about but sometimes it takes an " in

your face " approach to restore the universal human reality. How favoured and

lucky we are to live in the West unless we constitute the bottom 5 per cent

or so of any G7 country. I do not include Russia becasue it is more Third

Worldish than most like to imagine. Thanks

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:46:37 -0500

>

>Rita -

>

> Isn't it time you, and a lot of other whiners, grew up?

>

> Unions in your sector of the economy are NOT supposed to 'represent

>workers'. They are supposed to manage dissent and CONTROL workers. In

>your

>case, they did just about what one might have expected them to do. If you

>don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody says you HAVE to work

>in that high-paid job with the good benefits, you know.

>

> So they sent you to the EAP and you got browbeaten. What the hell did

>you

>expect? You present yourself as touchy with a lot of resentments. The

>boss

>was apparently looking for a way to get you. It doesn't matter that your

>personal work performance was good - you are part of a team, and your

>ATTITUDE was bad. From the bosses viewpoint, that made HIS job harder. Of

>course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The Big

>Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also says

>what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher

>powers

>say 'Boo!'

>

> You complain that the EAP would not let you return to work until you

>changed your 'attitude'. BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR! After

>years,

>you still don't get the picture? AA, and the War On Drugs, are NOT about

>alcohol or drugs - they are about political and work ATTITUDES. Were you

>willing to be 'powerless'? Did you tell the EAP people you would kiss the

>ass of the local higher powers? Why is it so hard for you to accept that

>THAT is what they wanted?

>

> You want the nice paycheck and good benefits that comes with working in

>the government-regulated sector of the American economy? Then shut up and

>kiss ass like everyone else. Or, at least, take the consequences of NOT

>shutting up without all the self-pity.

>

> You seem to have the bizarre idea that you can work for the Nazis, get

>all

>the perks and benefits that the Nazi system has to offer, yet somehow you

>ought to be exempt from saluting the swastika. You seem to think you can

>join the Marine Corps, but then you should be allowed to live as a

>pacifist.

>Totally unrealistic, infantile, and narcissistic!

>

> You have a choice. If you want to be free from indoctrination and

>harassment, quit the damn job. If you choose to stay, then take the

>paycheck, but stop whining about what comes with it.

>

> We have 2 million people in prison in this country. The streets are

>filled with homeless. In Colombia, the American drug warriors are killing

>dozens of innocent civilians every week. The inconveniences that

>middle-class Americans face with 12-Step propaganda and indoctrination is

>about the LEAST of the evils of the Drug War (evil though it be).

>

> An adult takes personal disappointments and puts them into wider

>perspective. An adult is able to understand when his or her own

>difficulties are only a minor part of a larger system of evil. An adult

>doesn't continue to whine about minor personal hurts, when other people are

>suffering much greater pain. In short, an adult is able to place personal

>experience into SOCIAL perspective. An adult doesn't focus on personal

>affronts, an adult devotes him- or herself to the GENERAL good.

>

> There are very few adults in the 12-Step Movement - and just as few in

>the

>anti-12-Step Movement. Instead, what one hears in both is unrealistic,

>narcissistic and infantile personal bitching.

>

> A middle-class individual working for the goddamn goverment - or in one

>of

>its regulated industries - who whines on and on and on about their 'soul

>rape' makes me want to puke.

>

> You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been raped.

>And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally

>murdered.

>

> Your 'soul rape', Rita, doesn't even come close. And your fat paycheck

>helps you bear the pain, I am sure.

>

> The U.S. is filled with disgruntled narcissists. It doesn't matter what

>movement they join. All the movements clamor about basically the same

>thing: " Me! Me! Me! " It is rarely that an individual comes out of the

>12-Step Movement with an interest in the bigger picture. Instead, the

>anti-AA types all want to tell THEIR story. Just like in an AA meeting.

>The more things change, the more they stay the same.

>

>

> To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> >

> >

> > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

>unless

>you

> > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

>being a

> > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

>insulting

> > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > >

> > -------------

> >

> > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

>you

>said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

>because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

>custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

>insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

>coerced involvement) with AA.

> >

> > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

>award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

>not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

>were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

>to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

>depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

>treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

>terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

>brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

>rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

>please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

>right

> " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

>you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me thi!

> > s way??

> >

> > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

>Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

>if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

>just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

>Welfare??

> >

> > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

>caused

>pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

>moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

>membership.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Clear, precise and accurate , if a little harsh. Ignorance fosters the

attitudes you complain so ferverently about but sometimes it takes an " in

your face " approach to restore the universal human reality. How favoured and

lucky we are to live in the West unless we constitute the bottom 5 per cent

or so of any G7 country. I do not include Russia becasue it is more Third

Worldish than most like to imagine. Thanks

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: To Mike re insensitivity

>Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:46:37 -0500

>

>Rita -

>

> Isn't it time you, and a lot of other whiners, grew up?

>

> Unions in your sector of the economy are NOT supposed to 'represent

>workers'. They are supposed to manage dissent and CONTROL workers. In

>your

>case, they did just about what one might have expected them to do. If you

>don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody says you HAVE to work

>in that high-paid job with the good benefits, you know.

>

> So they sent you to the EAP and you got browbeaten. What the hell did

>you

>expect? You present yourself as touchy with a lot of resentments. The

>boss

>was apparently looking for a way to get you. It doesn't matter that your

>personal work performance was good - you are part of a team, and your

>ATTITUDE was bad. From the bosses viewpoint, that made HIS job harder. Of

>course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The Big

>Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also says

>what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher

>powers

>say 'Boo!'

>

> You complain that the EAP would not let you return to work until you

>changed your 'attitude'. BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR! After

>years,

>you still don't get the picture? AA, and the War On Drugs, are NOT about

>alcohol or drugs - they are about political and work ATTITUDES. Were you

>willing to be 'powerless'? Did you tell the EAP people you would kiss the

>ass of the local higher powers? Why is it so hard for you to accept that

>THAT is what they wanted?

>

> You want the nice paycheck and good benefits that comes with working in

>the government-regulated sector of the American economy? Then shut up and

>kiss ass like everyone else. Or, at least, take the consequences of NOT

>shutting up without all the self-pity.

>

> You seem to have the bizarre idea that you can work for the Nazis, get

>all

>the perks and benefits that the Nazi system has to offer, yet somehow you

>ought to be exempt from saluting the swastika. You seem to think you can

>join the Marine Corps, but then you should be allowed to live as a

>pacifist.

>Totally unrealistic, infantile, and narcissistic!

>

> You have a choice. If you want to be free from indoctrination and

>harassment, quit the damn job. If you choose to stay, then take the

>paycheck, but stop whining about what comes with it.

>

> We have 2 million people in prison in this country. The streets are

>filled with homeless. In Colombia, the American drug warriors are killing

>dozens of innocent civilians every week. The inconveniences that

>middle-class Americans face with 12-Step propaganda and indoctrination is

>about the LEAST of the evils of the Drug War (evil though it be).

>

> An adult takes personal disappointments and puts them into wider

>perspective. An adult is able to understand when his or her own

>difficulties are only a minor part of a larger system of evil. An adult

>doesn't continue to whine about minor personal hurts, when other people are

>suffering much greater pain. In short, an adult is able to place personal

>experience into SOCIAL perspective. An adult doesn't focus on personal

>affronts, an adult devotes him- or herself to the GENERAL good.

>

> There are very few adults in the 12-Step Movement - and just as few in

>the

>anti-12-Step Movement. Instead, what one hears in both is unrealistic,

>narcissistic and infantile personal bitching.

>

> A middle-class individual working for the goddamn goverment - or in one

>of

>its regulated industries - who whines on and on and on about their 'soul

>rape' makes me want to puke.

>

> You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been raped.

>And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally

>murdered.

>

> Your 'soul rape', Rita, doesn't even come close. And your fat paycheck

>helps you bear the pain, I am sure.

>

> The U.S. is filled with disgruntled narcissists. It doesn't matter what

>movement they join. All the movements clamor about basically the same

>thing: " Me! Me! Me! " It is rarely that an individual comes out of the

>12-Step Movement with an interest in the bigger picture. Instead, the

>anti-AA types all want to tell THEIR story. Just like in an AA meeting.

>The more things change, the more they stay the same.

>

>

> To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> >

> >

> > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

>unless

>you

> > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

>being a

> > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

>insulting

> > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > >

> > -------------

> >

> > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

>you

>said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

>because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

>custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

>insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

>coerced involvement) with AA.

> >

> > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

>award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

>not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

>were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

>to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

>depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

>treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

>terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

>brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

>rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

>please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

>right

> " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

>you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me thi!

> > s way??

> >

> > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

>Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

>if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

>just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

>Welfare??

> >

> > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

>caused

>pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

>moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

>membership.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I guess you have authority to speak for 'some' and 'most' of 'us' whoever

that is. I don't know the circumstances of your problems at work, so I won't

try to make any comment on who stands where.

I did lose a job and almost nine years towards my pension, due to

employers using loopholes to avoid giving equal consideration to all

employees. I lost a job due to 'insubordination' which was what they called

my refusal to cooperate on their terms in a substance abuse matter. I

didn't lose weight or break down in nervous fits over it.I am not saying I

am better or stronger than you or anyone else, I just say fuck them, they

can stick their job up their ass, I will survive. That is the attitude

that gives me the opinion that no one can rape you unless you let them, no

one can embarrass or humiliate you, without your consent and cooperation. I

truly feel this way, and I am ashamed of nothing I have ever done. I just

don't accept peer pressure. fuck them. have a good day, Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I guess you have authority to speak for 'some' and 'most' of 'us' whoever

that is. I don't know the circumstances of your problems at work, so I won't

try to make any comment on who stands where.

I did lose a job and almost nine years towards my pension, due to

employers using loopholes to avoid giving equal consideration to all

employees. I lost a job due to 'insubordination' which was what they called

my refusal to cooperate on their terms in a substance abuse matter. I

didn't lose weight or break down in nervous fits over it.I am not saying I

am better or stronger than you or anyone else, I just say fuck them, they

can stick their job up their ass, I will survive. That is the attitude

that gives me the opinion that no one can rape you unless you let them, no

one can embarrass or humiliate you, without your consent and cooperation. I

truly feel this way, and I am ashamed of nothing I have ever done. I just

don't accept peer pressure. fuck them. have a good day, Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I guess you have authority to speak for 'some' and 'most' of 'us' whoever

that is. I don't know the circumstances of your problems at work, so I won't

try to make any comment on who stands where.

I did lose a job and almost nine years towards my pension, due to

employers using loopholes to avoid giving equal consideration to all

employees. I lost a job due to 'insubordination' which was what they called

my refusal to cooperate on their terms in a substance abuse matter. I

didn't lose weight or break down in nervous fits over it.I am not saying I

am better or stronger than you or anyone else, I just say fuck them, they

can stick their job up their ass, I will survive. That is the attitude

that gives me the opinion that no one can rape you unless you let them, no

one can embarrass or humiliate you, without your consent and cooperation. I

truly feel this way, and I am ashamed of nothing I have ever done. I just

don't accept peer pressure. fuck them. have a good day, Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

PS I was not even given the chance to go to NA or AA or change my attitude.

I was fired under the heading of insubordination for refusing to give a

urine sample that I knew was going to be used to fire me anyway. Like I

said, fuck them, I am healthy, as smart as most other people, and pretty

lucky so far. I will survive without their job. PS I am a decorated veteran

too, I just am not an ass kisser or politician, that is why I lose

sometimes. I would rather lose and keep my personal integrity, than sell

bits and pieces of my soul for piecesof silver. Money just isn't that

important. Mike.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul unless

you

> > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

being a

> > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

insulting

> > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > Sheesh!. Mike.

> >

> -------------

>

> Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which you

said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

coerced involvement) with AA.

>

> I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because they

were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

" rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the right

" attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times. Do

you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

>

> By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " -- that

if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

Welfare??

>

> Please think things over, and understand that your posts have caused

pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

>

> ~Rita

>

> p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

membership.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

>

> You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been

raped.

> And I have met the family members of people who have been brutally

murdered.

There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

respond to this point.

Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close to 1

in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are raped

annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per capita

murder rate in the world.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports, but

surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported. It is

considered the most accurate source of data available.

The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I applaud

anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore being

used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought this

issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this sort

of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their power, not

infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is dished

out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell me,

what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so disgusted

with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

Hicks

[Guest guest]

What a chicken-shit " politics-of-envy " broadside, . Now give me

one of your 10,000 word responses. Not that I would bother to read

it, but I need a good laugh.

Tommy

> >

> > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

unless

> you

> > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me

of

> being a

> > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was

I

> insulting

> > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else

dissenting?

> > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > >

> > -------------

> >

> > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in

which you

> said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are

" hypocrites "

> because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or

loss of

> custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

> insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement

(especially

> coerced involvement) with AA.

> >

> > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

> award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2

months,

> not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't

because they

> were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at

pretending

> to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already

been

> depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative

forced

> treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

> terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time

I was

> brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I

had to

> rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words

will

> please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I

be

> " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had

the right

> " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3

times. Do

> you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me thi!

> > s way??

> >

> > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit,

on

> Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite "

-- that

> if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should

have

> just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

> Welfare??

> >

> > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

caused

> pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

> moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting

and for

> membership.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks, , for your comments.

I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

I think regardless of anyone's economic status, education, or

personal experience, 12-step indoctrination when someone is

vulnerable and desperate (or young, as I was) is damaging. I was

told that, in exchange for health and sanity, I had to submit to the

programs, abandon my own will, and identify as a diseased, powerless

person in need of divine aid.

I lost both my health and sanity in this process and was continually

propelled in the same direction by the people from whom I sought

help. They told me there was no other option (this includes many

credentialled professionals in the mental health and tx field). I

was given medications I did not need and told I would benefit from

therapies that were expensive and consequently of very little real

value. When I consider the money, time, emotion, and energy wasted I

become very angry. It wasn't until I was older, almost 30, that I

realized all I really needed was information, not salvation. I

needed to be respected, to have my dignity recognized, and I needed

clear instruction and support on how to stop my behavior and live a

normal life. I never would have chosen to be a " stepper, " if I had

been told I had options.

I realize now that people I had once trusted were themselves

misguided or delluded. (Many of them were simply 12-step zealots).

It took a while to recognize this. So, yes, I made choices. I was

desperate. I was responsible for my membership in Overeaters

Anonymous. I was responsible for my participation in treatment. I

was responsible for all the time I invested in trying to be a good OA

and " act as if " to get my spiritual reward. I am responsible to

myself now for pulling away from it. But when I consider the ways in

which I was treated, including a professionally sanctioned line about

how I had no other feasible option, " soul rape " sounds like an apt

description.

>

> Hello ,

> >

> > You see, I have met women in Latin America who have REALLY been

> raped.

> > And I have met the family members of people who have been

brutally

> murdered.

>

> There was much in your post here that I found remarkable, but will

> respond to this point.

>

> Really, you don't have to travel to Latin America to find rape

> victims - there are probably some right next door to you. The

> attached link is the official numbers on it and show that close to

1

> in 1,000 people (the data includes men and those over 12) are raped

> annually. In addition, the United States has the higest per capita

> murder rate in the world.

>

> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viotrd.txt

>

> As a note, this source of data is not taken from police reports,

but

> surveys of Americans so does include data that is not reported. It

is

> considered the most accurate source of data available.

>

> The 12-step religion/philosophy is one of powerlessness. I applaud

> anyone who stands up to it in whatever form that takes. For some,

> that will be as simple as choosing not to believe (and therefore

being

> used as a tool). Others, like Rita and Tommy who have brought this

> issue into the open and actively challenge the monopoly of this

sort

> of thought in our court systems are *truly brave*.

>

> In order to right injustices, people need to exercise their power,

not

> infantilize themselves and just learn to " take " what ever is dished

> out. And thereby call themselves " adult " in your view?!?! Tell

me,

> what are YOU PERSONALLY doing in this area since you are so

disgusted

> with the efforts of the 12-step-freers?

>

> Hicks

[Guest guest]

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

I am sorry to hear about this . Seeing him round mst have been

awful. I have flashbacks of being raped as a child and that's

horrible when it happens. Fortunately I havent had them for quite a

while now but they can strike at any time.

P.

[Guest guest]

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

I am sorry to hear about this . Seeing him round mst have been

awful. I have flashbacks of being raped as a child and that's

horrible when it happens. Fortunately I havent had them for quite a

while now but they can strike at any time.

P.

[Guest guest]

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

I am sorry to hear about this . Seeing him round mst have been

awful. I have flashbacks of being raped as a child and that's

horrible when it happens. Fortunately I havent had them for quite a

while now but they can strike at any time.

P.

[Guest guest]

Oh, ,

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

This is the biggest reason why this crime is so underreported. It is

estimated that only 51% report and this is considered by many to be

high. So many in our culture think that the victim must have *done

something* to bring it on, including the victims. It is just

pervasive, this idea. It is wrong. IMO, a person can not be

*responsible* for another person's behavior, be that their raping,

beating, drinking, drugging or whatever. This goes back to z's

post too.

Then, because rape isn't reported, it reaffirms the idea that it can

be tolerated. I wonder what would happen if all of us reported it and

if it were consistently punished, in short, if we didn't tolerate this

crime. It would probably take awhile, but it would eventually shift

the onus of responsibility to the perpetrator, where it belongs. No

one blames robbery victims for being robbed (well, from the sounds of

it I probably have to amend this, some probably do). Nor do I see

robbery victims going around saying " I shouldn't have parked my car

there...it was really my fault. "

> I think regardless of anyone's economic status, education, or

> personal experience, 12-step indoctrination when someone is

> vulnerable and desperate (or young, as I was) is damaging. I was

> told that, in exchange for health and sanity, I had to submit to the

> programs, abandon my own will, and identify as a diseased, powerless

> person in need of divine aid.

>

> I lost both my health and sanity in this process and was continually

> propelled in the same direction by the people from whom I sought

> help. They told me there was no other option (this includes many

> credentialled professionals in the mental health and tx field). I

> was given medications I did not need and told I would benefit from

> therapies that were expensive and consequently of very little real

> value. When I consider the money, time, emotion, and energy wasted

I

> become very angry. It wasn't until I was older, almost 30, that I

> realized all I really needed was information, not salvation. I

> needed to be respected, to have my dignity recognized, and I needed

> clear instruction and support on how to stop my behavior and live a

> normal life. I never would have chosen to be a " stepper, " if I had

> been told I had options.

Annie's quote again: " When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical

thinking skills are not foremost in our armentarium. "

>

> I realize now that people I had once trusted were themselves

> misguided or delluded. (Many of them were simply 12-step zealots).

> It took a while to recognize this. So, yes, I made choices. I was

> desperate. I was responsible for my membership in Overeaters

> Anonymous. I was responsible for my participation in treatment. I

> was responsible for all the time I invested in trying to be a good

OA

> and " act as if " to get my spiritual reward. I am responsible to

> myself now for pulling away from it. But when I consider the ways

in

> which I was treated, including a professionally sanctioned line

about

> how I had no other feasible option, " soul rape " sounds like an apt

> description.

To me also.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

Oh, ,

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

This is the biggest reason why this crime is so underreported. It is

estimated that only 51% report and this is considered by many to be

high. So many in our culture think that the victim must have *done

something* to bring it on, including the victims. It is just

pervasive, this idea. It is wrong. IMO, a person can not be

*responsible* for another person's behavior, be that their raping,

beating, drinking, drugging or whatever. This goes back to z's

post too.

Then, because rape isn't reported, it reaffirms the idea that it can

be tolerated. I wonder what would happen if all of us reported it and

if it were consistently punished, in short, if we didn't tolerate this

crime. It would probably take awhile, but it would eventually shift

the onus of responsibility to the perpetrator, where it belongs. No

one blames robbery victims for being robbed (well, from the sounds of

it I probably have to amend this, some probably do). Nor do I see

robbery victims going around saying " I shouldn't have parked my car

there...it was really my fault. "

> I think regardless of anyone's economic status, education, or

> personal experience, 12-step indoctrination when someone is

> vulnerable and desperate (or young, as I was) is damaging. I was

> told that, in exchange for health and sanity, I had to submit to the

> programs, abandon my own will, and identify as a diseased, powerless

> person in need of divine aid.

>

> I lost both my health and sanity in this process and was continually

> propelled in the same direction by the people from whom I sought

> help. They told me there was no other option (this includes many

> credentialled professionals in the mental health and tx field). I

> was given medications I did not need and told I would benefit from

> therapies that were expensive and consequently of very little real

> value. When I consider the money, time, emotion, and energy wasted

I

> become very angry. It wasn't until I was older, almost 30, that I

> realized all I really needed was information, not salvation. I

> needed to be respected, to have my dignity recognized, and I needed

> clear instruction and support on how to stop my behavior and live a

> normal life. I never would have chosen to be a " stepper, " if I had

> been told I had options.

Annie's quote again: " When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical

thinking skills are not foremost in our armentarium. "

>

> I realize now that people I had once trusted were themselves

> misguided or delluded. (Many of them were simply 12-step zealots).

> It took a while to recognize this. So, yes, I made choices. I was

> desperate. I was responsible for my membership in Overeaters

> Anonymous. I was responsible for my participation in treatment. I

> was responsible for all the time I invested in trying to be a good

OA

> and " act as if " to get my spiritual reward. I am responsible to

> myself now for pulling away from it. But when I consider the ways

in

> which I was treated, including a professionally sanctioned line

about

> how I had no other feasible option, " soul rape " sounds like an apt

> description.

To me also.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

Oh, ,

> Thanks, , for your comments.

>

> I have experienced rape. I was a young man when it happened and for

> years I thought it was my fault. It was horrible and disgusting and

> I always felt shame. The man who did it lived in my community, so I

> saw him quite frequently. I never told anyone.

This is the biggest reason why this crime is so underreported. It is

estimated that only 51% report and this is considered by many to be

high. So many in our culture think that the victim must have *done

something* to bring it on, including the victims. It is just

pervasive, this idea. It is wrong. IMO, a person can not be

*responsible* for another person's behavior, be that their raping,

beating, drinking, drugging or whatever. This goes back to z's

post too.

Then, because rape isn't reported, it reaffirms the idea that it can

be tolerated. I wonder what would happen if all of us reported it and

if it were consistently punished, in short, if we didn't tolerate this

crime. It would probably take awhile, but it would eventually shift

the onus of responsibility to the perpetrator, where it belongs. No

one blames robbery victims for being robbed (well, from the sounds of

it I probably have to amend this, some probably do). Nor do I see

robbery victims going around saying " I shouldn't have parked my car

there...it was really my fault. "

> I think regardless of anyone's economic status, education, or

> personal experience, 12-step indoctrination when someone is

> vulnerable and desperate (or young, as I was) is damaging. I was

> told that, in exchange for health and sanity, I had to submit to the

> programs, abandon my own will, and identify as a diseased, powerless

> person in need of divine aid.

>

> I lost both my health and sanity in this process and was continually

> propelled in the same direction by the people from whom I sought

> help. They told me there was no other option (this includes many

> credentialled professionals in the mental health and tx field). I

> was given medications I did not need and told I would benefit from

> therapies that were expensive and consequently of very little real

> value. When I consider the money, time, emotion, and energy wasted

I

> become very angry. It wasn't until I was older, almost 30, that I

> realized all I really needed was information, not salvation. I

> needed to be respected, to have my dignity recognized, and I needed

> clear instruction and support on how to stop my behavior and live a

> normal life. I never would have chosen to be a " stepper, " if I had

> been told I had options.

Annie's quote again: " When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical

thinking skills are not foremost in our armentarium. "

>

> I realize now that people I had once trusted were themselves

> misguided or delluded. (Many of them were simply 12-step zealots).

> It took a while to recognize this. So, yes, I made choices. I was

> desperate. I was responsible for my membership in Overeaters

> Anonymous. I was responsible for my participation in treatment. I

> was responsible for all the time I invested in trying to be a good

OA

> and " act as if " to get my spiritual reward. I am responsible to

> myself now for pulling away from it. But when I consider the ways

in

> which I was treated, including a professionally sanctioned line

about

> how I had no other feasible option, " soul rape " sounds like an apt

> description.

To me also.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> Of course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The

Big

> Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also

says

> what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher

powers

> say 'Boo!'

And if you stuff it where the sun never shines, the bb says

" mmmmmmffffffggggg " in a sort of muffled tone, similar to Kenny on South

Park. The sphincter muscle acts much like the drawstring on the hood of

Kenny's parka.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> Of course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The

Big

> Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also

says

> what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher

powers

> say 'Boo!'

And if you stuff it where the sun never shines, the bb says

" mmmmmmffffffggggg " in a sort of muffled tone, similar to Kenny on South

Park. The sphincter muscle acts much like the drawstring on the hood of

Kenny's parka.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> Of course, 'alcohol' was only an excuse. Why does this surprise you? The

Big

> Book says clearly: 'Our liquor was only a symptom.' The Big Book also

says

> what the REAL problem is: resentment, refusal to jump when the higher

powers

> say 'Boo!'

And if you stuff it where the sun never shines, the bb says

" mmmmmmffffffggggg " in a sort of muffled tone, similar to Kenny on South

Park. The sphincter muscle acts much like the drawstring on the hood of

Kenny's parka.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

Of course, women can be raped against their will. Being forced to submit

to sexual intercourse " against one's will " is what DEFINES rape.

It is different with 'soul rape', though. No such thing exists. No one

can MAKE you accept a belief, no matter how terrible the physical torture.

The vast majority of middle-class people who get into AA - even those

forced to participate - end up going along willingly - just as the vast

majority of Germans went along with Nazi ideology and race doctrine.

There isn't any big mystery here. AA is one variety of the

government-corporate 'official ideology'. People go along with it because

they know it is dangerous not to.

'True belief' in this crap probably does not run very deep (true belief in

Nazi 'racial' mythology did not run very deep, either). But that is beside

the point. Most Americans accept the 'addiction' myths because not to

accept them gets one into serious trouble. Most Americans want to just look

out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck. Social good and

abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> >

> >

> > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

unless

> you

> > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

> being a

> > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

> insulting

> > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > >

> > -------------

> >

> > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

you

> said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

> because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

> custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

> insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

> coerced involvement) with AA.

> >

> > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

> award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

> not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because

they

> were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

> to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

> depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

> treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

> terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

> brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

> rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

> please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

right

> " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times.

Do

> you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

> >

> > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

> Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " --

that

> if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

> just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

> Welfare??

> >

> > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

caused

> pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

> moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

> membership.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Of course, women can be raped against their will. Being forced to submit

to sexual intercourse " against one's will " is what DEFINES rape.

It is different with 'soul rape', though. No such thing exists. No one

can MAKE you accept a belief, no matter how terrible the physical torture.

The vast majority of middle-class people who get into AA - even those

forced to participate - end up going along willingly - just as the vast

majority of Germans went along with Nazi ideology and race doctrine.

There isn't any big mystery here. AA is one variety of the

government-corporate 'official ideology'. People go along with it because

they know it is dangerous not to.

'True belief' in this crap probably does not run very deep (true belief in

Nazi 'racial' mythology did not run very deep, either). But that is beside

the point. Most Americans accept the 'addiction' myths because not to

accept them gets one into serious trouble. Most Americans want to just look

out for number one, and they focus on the paycheck. Social good and

abstract 'truth' is seldom a concern in the United States.

To Mike re insensitivity

>

>

> >

> >

> > > All I did was make a statement saying'no one can rape your soul

unless

> you

> > > allow them to' and I am getting messages from people accusing me of

> being a

> > > 'troublemaker' and a 'troll'. What happened to free speech? Was I

> insulting

> > > someone? Or did someone just take offense at someone else dissenting?

> > > Sheesh!. Mike.

> > >

> > -------------

> >

> > Mike, that statement, added to a previous post of yours in which

you

> said that people who fight against government-mandated AA are " hypocrites "

> because they " chose " AA instead of imprisonment (or job loss, or loss of

> custody of their children, etc.), makes you come across as extremely

> insensitive to those of us who were harmed by our involvement (especially

> coerced involvement) with AA.

> >

> > I DO feel my soul was raped, as Tommy puts it. Despite an

> award-winning work record, I was forbidden from working for 7 1/2 months,

> not because I was drinking or drugging (and they knew I wasn't because

they

> were body-fluid testing me) but because I was not succeeding at pretending

> to believe in 12-steppism and " disease " identity. I had already been

> depressed, but my depression was exacerbated by the manipulative forced

> treatment to the point where I had uncontrollable crying fits (which

> terrified my 10-year-old son) and a 25-lb. weight loss. Every time I was

> brought before the Inquisition-like EAP " back-to-work " committee, I had to

> rack my brains thinking " What is it they want to hear? What words will

> please them? " and had to concoct things, all while they demanded I be

> " rigorously honest " yet warned me that I couldn't work until I had the

right

> " attitude " about " recovery. " I was denied back-to-work status 3 times.

Do

> you dare to claim that I LET them hurt me this way??

> >

> > By the way, my depression began to lift after I filed suit, on

> Establishment Clause grounds. Do you still think I'm a " hypocrite " --

that

> if I objected to their cruelty or to the 12-step religion, I should have

> just quit my job, forfeited 17 years towards a pension, and gone on

> Welfare??

> >

> > Please think things over, and understand that your posts have

caused

> pain for some of us, and offended most of us.

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> > p.s. " Free speech " does not apply to listserves. Listowners and

> moderators have the absolute right to establish rules for posting and for

> membership.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies.

What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies.

What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

But quite a few 12-step centers *do* use classic brainwashing

tactics. It isn't always just hyperbole or wild labeling.

I really have to question that, since "brainwashing" is a term coined to describe what the Communist Chinese did to some people in the 1950s. It was a total immersion process of controlling and depriving them of food, sleep, and sensory stimulation. Even tho the term is frequently applied to so-called cults, the fact is, that very few of them actually practice true brainwashing techniques, with a few isolated exceptions, such as fringe groups of the Moonies.

What most people actually mean when they charge AA or other religious movements with brainwashing, is heavy-handed indoctrination. THAT AA certainly does, as do many rehabs.

--Mona--