Re: Online EMT Course

[Guest guest]

Add me to the list, Gene. I'd prefer the EdSum be an event by itself.

There would be fewer distractions and we could focus on the issues we're all

concerned about.

Kay

Executive Director

Hill Country EMS Training

Re: Online EMT Course

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

The onese we had at Tyler Junior College had close to a 100% pass rate on the

state exam - that was before NR. We haven't got stats to give you on our

current courses cause we have had no students complete them yet. They will be

starting very shortly - just waiting on our webmaster.

Jane Hill

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The onese we had at Tyler Junior College had close to a 100% pass rate on the

state exam - that was before NR. We haven't got stats to give you on our

current courses cause we have had no students complete them yet. They will be

starting very shortly - just waiting on our webmaster.

Jane Hill

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The onese we had at Tyler Junior College had close to a 100% pass rate on the

state exam - that was before NR. We haven't got stats to give you on our

current courses cause we have had no students complete them yet. They will be

starting very shortly - just waiting on our webmaster.

Jane Hill

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

BTW, my online Adult Methods of Teaching course has a 98% pass rate on the

certification exam last time I checked.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

BTW, my online Adult Methods of Teaching course has a 98% pass rate on the

certification exam last time I checked.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

BTW, my online Adult Methods of Teaching course has a 98% pass rate on the

certification exam last time I checked.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to

prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students

learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

just

> that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think

that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kay,

I've added you to the list. It looks like we're close to having a large

enough group of key educators that we can begin to put this together.

Be thinking about possible times, locations, themes, and so forth. We'll

have to work out the time and place early.

The advantage of EMStock is that it's an existing event with all the support

stuff you could possibly want: food, beverages, space, parking, tents, and

so forth. The cost would be far less to do it there unless you can think of

a comparable place someplace else that would provide the same stuff that we

can afford.

I want to be able to concentrate on it being a hands-on workshop to show

people who are still using " talking head " lectures and quizzes how much better

they can present their materials through using other methods.

You're now on the " A list " so please let your mind range freely about what,

where, and how we want to do this.

Best,

Gene

>

> Add me to the list, Gene.  I'd prefer the EdSum be an event by itself.

> There would be fewer distractions and we could focus on the issues we're all

> concerned about.

>

> Kay

> Executive Director

> Hill Country EMS Training

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kay,

I've added you to the list. It looks like we're close to having a large

enough group of key educators that we can begin to put this together.

Be thinking about possible times, locations, themes, and so forth. We'll

have to work out the time and place early.

The advantage of EMStock is that it's an existing event with all the support

stuff you could possibly want: food, beverages, space, parking, tents, and

so forth. The cost would be far less to do it there unless you can think of

a comparable place someplace else that would provide the same stuff that we

can afford.

I want to be able to concentrate on it being a hands-on workshop to show

people who are still using " talking head " lectures and quizzes how much better

they can present their materials through using other methods.

You're now on the " A list " so please let your mind range freely about what,

where, and how we want to do this.

Best,

Gene

>

> Add me to the list, Gene.  I'd prefer the EdSum be an event by itself.

> There would be fewer distractions and we could focus on the issues we're all

> concerned about.

>

> Kay

> Executive Director

> Hill Country EMS Training

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kay,

I've added you to the list. It looks like we're close to having a large

enough group of key educators that we can begin to put this together.

Be thinking about possible times, locations, themes, and so forth. We'll

have to work out the time and place early.

The advantage of EMStock is that it's an existing event with all the support

stuff you could possibly want: food, beverages, space, parking, tents, and

so forth. The cost would be far less to do it there unless you can think of

a comparable place someplace else that would provide the same stuff that we

can afford.

I want to be able to concentrate on it being a hands-on workshop to show

people who are still using " talking head " lectures and quizzes how much better

they can present their materials through using other methods.

You're now on the " A list " so please let your mind range freely about what,

where, and how we want to do this.

Best,

Gene

>

> Add me to the list, Gene.  I'd prefer the EdSum be an event by itself.

> There would be fewer distractions and we could focus on the issues we're all

> concerned about.

>

> Kay

> Executive Director

> Hill Country EMS Training

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You're on the executive team.

Let's begin to plan for where, when, how, and what we're going to do with

this.

EMStock has been mentioned, and its advantages are that it's already THERE.

However, some would prefer another location and another time.

I view this as a working instructional seminar to show people who are not

really into distance learning, problem based learning, team learning,

pyramiding,

and all those techniques.

I would like to present a scenario designed to teach problem solving. Also

my method of rapidly teaching a skill.

So let your mind graze and let's get our thoughts together on what we want to

do.

Lots of people are signing on, and I'm going to ask some others to come on

board. Then I'll identify a task force and we'll start to do some real

planning.

The one thing that this MUST NOT become is a political rally to rail against

NREMT or TDSHS. I want it to be a seminar on how to teach the best ways.

Best,

Gene

>

> Gene,

>

>

>

> I think that it would be a great idea.

>

>

>

> Bob

>

>

>

> Dr. Bob Folden

>

> So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom!

>

>

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

>

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.  

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You're on the executive team.

Let's begin to plan for where, when, how, and what we're going to do with

this.

EMStock has been mentioned, and its advantages are that it's already THERE.

However, some would prefer another location and another time.

I view this as a working instructional seminar to show people who are not

really into distance learning, problem based learning, team learning,

pyramiding,

and all those techniques.

I would like to present a scenario designed to teach problem solving. Also

my method of rapidly teaching a skill.

So let your mind graze and let's get our thoughts together on what we want to

do.

Lots of people are signing on, and I'm going to ask some others to come on

board. Then I'll identify a task force and we'll start to do some real

planning.

The one thing that this MUST NOT become is a political rally to rail against

NREMT or TDSHS. I want it to be a seminar on how to teach the best ways.

Best,

Gene

>

> Gene,

>

>

>

> I think that it would be a great idea.

>

>

>

> Bob

>

>

>

> Dr. Bob Folden

>

> So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom!

>

>

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

>

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.  

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You're on the executive team.

Let's begin to plan for where, when, how, and what we're going to do with

this.

EMStock has been mentioned, and its advantages are that it's already THERE.

However, some would prefer another location and another time.

I view this as a working instructional seminar to show people who are not

really into distance learning, problem based learning, team learning,

pyramiding,

and all those techniques.

I would like to present a scenario designed to teach problem solving. Also

my method of rapidly teaching a skill.

So let your mind graze and let's get our thoughts together on what we want to

do.

Lots of people are signing on, and I'm going to ask some others to come on

board. Then I'll identify a task force and we'll start to do some real

planning.

The one thing that this MUST NOT become is a political rally to rail against

NREMT or TDSHS. I want it to be a seminar on how to teach the best ways.

Best,

Gene

>

> Gene,

>

>

>

> I think that it would be a great idea.

>

>

>

> Bob

>

>

>

> Dr. Bob Folden

>

> So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom!

>

>

>

> Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

>

> I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just instructors,

> coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

>

> We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

>

> modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with them.  

>

> No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

> the

> envelope of understanding.

>

> Anybody willing to second the motion?

>

> GG

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

Count me in, I would really like to help anyway I can.

Deb

[Guest guest]

Gene,

Count me in, I would really like to help anyway I can.

Deb

[Guest guest]

You are in.

I'm making up a list of key people and you'll be in it. Be thinking about

topics and so forth.

Gene

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Excellent. Steve, send me your snailmail address, phone number, and so

forth. I'm putting together a mailing list et cetera.

GG

>

> I'm in.  Maybe this will FINALLY get me there!

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Sounds like it to me.   Let's have an Educator's camp and just deal with

> >education stuff.

> >

> >gg

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> >POB 1651

> >Albany, TX 76430

> >wegandy1938@...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Excellent. Steve, send me your snailmail address, phone number, and so

forth. I'm putting together a mailing list et cetera.

GG

>

> I'm in.  Maybe this will FINALLY get me there!

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Sounds like it to me.   Let's have an Educator's camp and just deal with

> >education stuff.

> >

> >gg

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> >POB 1651

> >Albany, TX 76430

> >wegandy1938@...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Excellent. Steve, send me your snailmail address, phone number, and so

forth. I'm putting together a mailing list et cetera.

GG

>

> I'm in.  Maybe this will FINALLY get me there!

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Sounds like it to me.   Let's have an Educator's camp and just deal with

> >education stuff.

> >

> >gg

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> >POB 1651

> >Albany, TX 76430

> >wegandy1938@...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Course hours may be a good idea for a topic at the summit. I think it's

worth batting around.

GG

>

> Gene,

>

> Same thing in preEMS. AHA has for years insisted the best measure of a

> class is HOURS in attendance.  So they mandate a minimum number of

> hours, and they tell the " horror stories " of the sub-standard education

> out there, based on the fact that their courses are shorter!

>

> Maybe most deficient courses ARE shorter, but the converse isn't true,

> that MOST short courses are deficient.  We need to work on what we

> measure, and what success in a class really is.

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment,   what relevance does any

> >number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything?   A

> student

> >who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

> >anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep.   On the other hand, he

> may find

> >time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in

> 1/2

> >the time.

> >

> >If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

> >demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want

> them

> >to waste the rest of that time?

> >

> >I took the Online drivers safety course.   I was set up that way.  

> >Absolutely maddening.   I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number

> of hours of

> >the course as penance for my sins.   I could have covered the materials and

> >answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time.   I did manage to

> >finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

> >

> >

> >

> >I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify

> that

> >the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair

> for

> >any amount of time.

> >

> >G

> >

> >n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

> >

> > 

> >

> >>In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> >>have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the

> test.

> >>If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> >>will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> >>the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> >>daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the

> State

> >>of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I

> see

> >>your point--but there are two sides to it.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >> RE: Online EMT Course

> >>

> >>

> >>One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to

> prevent

> >>students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> >>time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> >>different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> >>really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students

> learn

> >>at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

> just

> >>that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> >>proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> >>long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> >>through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

> get

> >>it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think

> that

> >>this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

> propagated

> >>because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> >>done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

> >>

> >>Just my opinion...

> >>

> >>Jane Hill

> >>

> >>-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> >>: --------------

> >>

> >>Hey gang:

> >>

> >>Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> >>on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> >>author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

> and

> >>do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> >>theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> >>in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> >>Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

> 11th

> >>grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> >>Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

> text,

> >>reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> >>national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> >>(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> >>interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> >>through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> >>Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> >>special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> >>Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

> am

> >>a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> >>Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

> >>

> >>1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> >>(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> >>videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> >>2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> >>hours).

> >>3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> >>study (a textbook may suffice).

> >>4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> >>5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> >>classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> >>Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> >>patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> >>provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

> student

> >>and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> >>on-line program.

> >>6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

> Registry.

> >>

> >>For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

> medics

> >>must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> >>on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> >>Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> >>need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

> >>

> >>For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> >>fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> >>clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

> running

> >>through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> >>people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> >>computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

> something

> >>not interactive or challenging.

> >>

> >>But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> >>student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> >>white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> >>(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> >>the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> >>low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

> secondary).

> >>

> >>I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> >>the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> >>again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

> for

> >>the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> >>programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> >>the things I listed above.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Course hours may be a good idea for a topic at the summit. I think it's

worth batting around.

GG

>

> Gene,

>

> Same thing in preEMS. AHA has for years insisted the best measure of a

> class is HOURS in attendance.  So they mandate a minimum number of

> hours, and they tell the " horror stories " of the sub-standard education

> out there, based on the fact that their courses are shorter!

>

> Maybe most deficient courses ARE shorter, but the converse isn't true,

> that MOST short courses are deficient.  We need to work on what we

> measure, and what success in a class really is.

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment,   what relevance does any

> >number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything?   A

> student

> >who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

> >anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep.   On the other hand, he

> may find

> >time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in

> 1/2

> >the time.

> >

> >If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

> >demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want

> them

> >to waste the rest of that time?

> >

> >I took the Online drivers safety course.   I was set up that way.  

> >Absolutely maddening.   I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number

> of hours of

> >the course as penance for my sins.   I could have covered the materials and

> >answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time.   I did manage to

> >finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

> >

> >

> >

> >I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify

> that

> >the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair

> for

> >any amount of time.

> >

> >G

> >

> >n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

> >

> > 

> >

> >>In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> >>have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the

> test.

> >>If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> >>will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> >>the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> >>daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the

> State

> >>of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I

> see

> >>your point--but there are two sides to it.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >> RE: Online EMT Course

> >>

> >>

> >>One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to

> prevent

> >>students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> >>time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> >>different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> >>really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students

> learn

> >>at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

> just

> >>that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> >>proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> >>long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> >>through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

> get

> >>it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think

> that

> >>this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

> propagated

> >>because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> >>done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

> >>

> >>Just my opinion...

> >>

> >>Jane Hill

> >>

> >>-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> >>: --------------

> >>

> >>Hey gang:

> >>

> >>Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> >>on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> >>author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

> and

> >>do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> >>theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> >>in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> >>Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

> 11th

> >>grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> >>Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

> text,

> >>reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> >>national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> >>(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> >>interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> >>through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> >>Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> >>special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> >>Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

> am

> >>a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> >>Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

> >>

> >>1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> >>(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> >>videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> >>2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> >>hours).

> >>3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> >>study (a textbook may suffice).

> >>4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> >>5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> >>classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> >>Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> >>patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> >>provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

> student

> >>and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> >>on-line program.

> >>6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

> Registry.

> >>

> >>For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

> medics

> >>must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> >>on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> >>Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> >>need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

> >>

> >>For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> >>fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> >>clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

> running

> >>through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> >>people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> >>computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

> something

> >>not interactive or challenging.

> >>

> >>But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> >>student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> >>white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> >>(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> >>the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> >>low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

> secondary).

> >>

> >>I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> >>the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> >>again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

> for

> >>the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> >>programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> >>the things I listed above.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Course hours may be a good idea for a topic at the summit. I think it's

worth batting around.

GG

>

> Gene,

>

> Same thing in preEMS. AHA has for years insisted the best measure of a

> class is HOURS in attendance.  So they mandate a minimum number of

> hours, and they tell the " horror stories " of the sub-standard education

> out there, based on the fact that their courses are shorter!

>

> Maybe most deficient courses ARE shorter, but the converse isn't true,

> that MOST short courses are deficient.  We need to work on what we

> measure, and what success in a class really is.

>

> =Steve=

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> >Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment,   what relevance does any

> >number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything?   A

> student

> >who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

> >anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep.   On the other hand, he

> may find

> >time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in

> 1/2

> >the time.

> >

> >If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

> >demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want

> them

> >to waste the rest of that time?

> >

> >I took the Online drivers safety course.   I was set up that way.  

> >Absolutely maddening.   I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number

> of hours of

> >the course as penance for my sins.   I could have covered the materials and

> >answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time.   I did manage to

> >finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

> >

> >

> >

> >I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify

> that

> >the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair

> for

> >any amount of time.

> >

> >G

> >

> >n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

> >

> > 

> >

> >>In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> >>have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the

> test.

> >>If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> >>will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> >>the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> >>daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the

> State

> >>of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I

> see

> >>your point--but there are two sides to it.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >> RE: Online EMT Course

> >>

> >>

> >>One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to

> prevent

> >>students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> >>time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> >>different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> >>really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students

> learn

> >>at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are

> just

> >>that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> >>proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> >>long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> >>through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't

> get

> >>it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think

> that

> >>this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be

> propagated

> >>because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> >>done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

> >>

> >>Just my opinion...

> >>

> >>Jane Hill

> >>

> >>-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> >>: --------------

> >>

> >>Hey gang:

> >>

> >>Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> >>on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> >>author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners

> and

> >>do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> >>theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> >>in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> >>Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the

> 11th

> >>grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> >>Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the

> text,

> >>reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> >>national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> >>(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> >>interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> >>through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> >>Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> >>special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> >>Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and

> am

> >>a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> >>Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

> >>

> >>1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> >>(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> >>videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> >>2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> >>hours).

> >>3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> >>study (a textbook may suffice).

> >>4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> >>5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> >>classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> >>Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> >>patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> >>provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the

> student

> >>and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> >>on-line program.

> >>6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National

> Registry.

> >>

> >>For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces

> medics

> >>must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> >>on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> >>Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> >>need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

> >>

> >>For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> >>fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> >>clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students

> running

> >>through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> >>people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> >>computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with

> something

> >>not interactive or challenging.

> >>

> >>But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> >>student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> >>white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> >>(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> >>the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> >>low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book

> secondary).

> >>

> >>I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> >>the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> >>again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in

> for

> >>the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> >>programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> >>the things I listed above.

> >>

> >>BEB

> >>

> >>

> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> >>Midlothian, TX

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>