Re: Online EMT Course

[Guest guest]

Just to add my 2 cents from TechPro since we are doing online education now, we

have set things up to allow for skills preparation, practice, testing, etc.

Students are also not allowed to attend clinical or field rotations UNTIL they

have successfully tested off on ALL EMT-Basic skills and then will practice

those skills more under preceptor guidance in those rotations prior to receiving

a Course Completion Certficate. I can't say what Lance or or anyone else

is doing, but our courses are being set up will all in mind. I lay my

Coordinator's certification on the line for NO ONE.

Jane Hill, Clinical Coordinator

TechPro Services, inc.

--------- Re: Online EMT Course

I'm different, I have all the skills, made it all the way through mega-code,

but I lost my cert because I went over on the date and couldn't afford it.

By the time it got to where I could, it was virtually too late. It makes

more sense for me, especially since I don't use it in everyday life to take

an online basic course. As far as the skills are concerned, I already know

them, plus a lot more, I was more wondering from Lance if you tested out on

your skills if the every Friday thing was still required.

I understand your point, but for someone who has been previously certified

(especially at a higher level) and manages to keep us with all their KSA's,

just not their paperwork, it's a good option.

Cristi

[Guest guest]

Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do "

format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off

of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are

several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then

attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process.

The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high

average even for a live academy.

Just my 2 cents

Lee

Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do

> everything else but that.

>

> Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate?

>

> How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-)

>

>

> Cristi

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do "

format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off

of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are

several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then

attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process.

The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high

average even for a live academy.

Just my 2 cents

Lee

Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do

> everything else but that.

>

> Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate?

>

> How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-)

>

>

> Cristi

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do "

format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off

of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are

several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then

attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process.

The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high

average even for a live academy.

Just my 2 cents

Lee

Re: Online EMT Course

>

>

> Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do

> everything else but that.

>

> Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate?

>

> How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-)

>

>

> Cristi

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time

seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people

learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little

to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace -

maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically

intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only

irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average

student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing,

and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic

or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those

issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is

necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom

training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " :

--------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

your point--but there are two sides to it.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

your point--but there are two sides to it.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

your point--but there are two sides to it.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But

again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it

has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe

education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time

for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these

new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to

keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or

stiff and unbending.

Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS

issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid

out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in

doing that.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But

again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it

has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe

education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time

for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these

new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to

keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or

stiff and unbending.

Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS

issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid

out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in

doing that.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But

again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it

has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe

education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time

for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these

new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to

keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or

stiff and unbending.

Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS

issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid

out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in

doing that.

Jane

--------- RE: Online EMT Course

One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent

students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has

time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since

different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn

at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as

long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that

this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

Just my opinion...

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

: --------------

Hey gang:

Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

hours).

3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

study (a textbook may suffice).

4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

on-line program.

6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

not interactive or challenging.

But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

the things I listed above.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any

number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student

who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may

find

time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2

the time.

If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them

to waste the rest of that time?

I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way.

Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of

hours of

the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and

answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to

finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that

the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for

any amount of time.

G

n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

>

> In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

> If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

> of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

> your point--but there are two sides to it.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

> RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

> that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB 

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any

number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student

who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may

find

time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2

the time.

If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them

to waste the rest of that time?

I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way.

Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of

hours of

the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and

answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to

finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that

the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for

any amount of time.

G

n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

>

> In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

> If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

> of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

> your point--but there are two sides to it.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

> RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

> that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB 

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any

number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student

who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done

anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may

find

time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2

the time.

If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2,

demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them

to waste the rest of that time?

I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way.

Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of

hours of

the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and

answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to

finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running.

I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that

the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for

any amount of time.

G

n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes

>

> In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there

> have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test.

> If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how

> will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let

> the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My

> daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State

> of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see

> your point--but there are two sides to it.

>

> BEB

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

> RE: Online EMT Course

>

>

> One question, Dr. B, about your comment:  >4. There must be a way to prevent

> students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<<  What has

> time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning?  Since

> different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time "

> really has very little to do with outcomes of learning.  Some students learn

> at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just

> that basically intelligent.  Forcing them to wait for a period of time to

> proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.   Other students take twice as

> long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor

> through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get

> it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again.  I personally think that

> this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated

> because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been

> done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response.

>

> Just my opinion...

>

> Jane Hill

>

> -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe "

> : --------------

>

> Hey gang:

>

> Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of

> on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook

> author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and

> do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract

> theory).  Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page

> in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic

> Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th

> grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs.

> Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text,

> reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the

> national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based

> (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of

> interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director

> through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations

> Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all

> special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and

> Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am

> a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National

> Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this:

>

> 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual

> (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible,

> videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving.

> 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable

> hours).

> 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to

> study (a textbook may suffice).

> 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area

> to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.

> 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a

> classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for

> Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with

> patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to

> provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student

> and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good

> on-line program.

> 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry.

>

> For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics

> must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this

> on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here).

> Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the

> need for more comprehensive ongoing education.

>

> For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be

> fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and

> clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running

> through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS

> people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced

> computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something

> not interactive or challenging.

>

> But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a

> student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a

> white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses

> (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to

> the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for

> low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary).

>

> I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on

> the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work

> again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for

> the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS

> programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of

> the things I listed above.

>

> BEB 

>

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/28/04 4:32:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Gene. I think this would be very

beneficial, interesting, and productive.

Education Coordinator

Champion EMS

Longview, Texas

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/28/04 4:32:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors,

coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.

We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning,

modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them.

No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing

the

envelope of understanding.

Anybody willing to second the motion?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Gene. I think this would be very

beneficial, interesting, and productive.

Education Coordinator

Champion EMS

Longview, Texas

[Guest guest]

We have a motion and a second. Any discussion?

>

>

> You have it, Now the vote!!!

>

>

> > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just

> instructors,

> > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

> >

> > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance

> learning,  

> > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with

> them.  

> >

> > No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and

> pushing the

> > envelope of understanding.

> >

> > Anybody willing to second the motion?

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@a...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

We have a motion and a second. Any discussion?

>

>

> You have it, Now the vote!!!

>

>

> > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just

> instructors,

> > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

> >

> > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance

> learning,  

> > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with

> them.  

> >

> > No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and

> pushing the

> > envelope of understanding.

> >

> > Anybody willing to second the motion?

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@a...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

We have a motion and a second. Any discussion?

>

>

> You have it, Now the vote!!!

>

>

> > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.   Just

> instructors,

> > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  

> >

> > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance

> learning,  

> > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,   and have fun with

> them.  

> >

> > No pedants, no salespeople,   just educators exchanging ideas and

> pushing the

> > envelope of understanding.

> >

> > Anybody willing to second the motion?

> >

> > GG

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@a...

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

What about at EMSTOCK next year? Get ourseffs off in a corner of the estate

and do our thing there?

GG

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...