Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Just to add my 2 cents from TechPro since we are doing online education now, we have set things up to allow for skills preparation, practice, testing, etc. Students are also not allowed to attend clinical or field rotations UNTIL they have successfully tested off on ALL EMT-Basic skills and then will practice those skills more under preceptor guidance in those rotations prior to receiving a Course Completion Certficate. I can't say what Lance or or anyone else is doing, but our courses are being set up will all in mind. I lay my Coordinator's certification on the line for NO ONE. Jane Hill, Clinical Coordinator TechPro Services, inc. --------- Re: Online EMT Course I'm different, I have all the skills, made it all the way through mega-code, but I lost my cert because I went over on the date and couldn't afford it. By the time it got to where I could, it was virtually too late. It makes more sense for me, especially since I don't use it in everyday life to take an online basic course. As far as the skills are concerned, I already know them, plus a lot more, I was more wondering from Lance if you tested out on your skills if the every Friday thing was still required. I understand your point, but for someone who has been previously certified (especially at a higher level) and manages to keep us with all their KSA's, just not their paperwork, it's a good option. Cristi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do " format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process. The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high average even for a live academy. Just my 2 cents Lee Re: Online EMT Course > > > Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do > everything else but that. > > Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate? > > How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-) > > > Cristi > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do " format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process. The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high average even for a live academy. Just my 2 cents Lee Re: Online EMT Course > > > Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do > everything else but that. > > Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate? > > How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-) > > > Cristi > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Good, bad or indifferent the AHA changed the BCLS courses to a " watch and do " format (just like these on-line ECA and EMT classes). They based the change off of multiple research studies on adult learning principals. Also, there are several on-line Fire Academies that does all of the didactic on-line and then attend a 14 day " boot camp " at the end and then the TCFP credentialling process. The very first class had a state test average of 91.7. That is a very high average even for a live academy. Just my 2 cents Lee Re: Online EMT Course > > > Hey Lance, is that a requirement for the EVERY Friday thing. I could do > everything else but that. > > Where do you stand with on-line Intermediate? > > How come you never e-mail me anymore??? :-) > > > Cristi > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see your point--but there are two sides to it. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see your point--but there are two sides to it. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see your point--but there are two sides to it. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or stiff and unbending. Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in doing that. Jane --------- RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or stiff and unbending. Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in doing that. Jane --------- RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yes, I agree that there are two sides. And I see what you are saying. But again, just because others do it that way and just because that is the way it has always been done, doesn't make it correct. I am just saying that maybe education in general has been part of the Ganzer syndrome effect, and it is time for EMS to pave the way and try new things and be open minded. Some of these new things are not working and/or may not work - others will. We just have to keep punching away until we find the right path and not be narrow minded or stiff and unbending. Dr. B, thanks as always for helping to stir up much needed conversation on EMS issues. I think that the pros and cons of important issues all need to be laid out and analyzed carefully by the group, and I think we have been successful in doing that. Jane --------- RE: Online EMT Course One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. Just my opinion... Jane Hill -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " : -------------- Hey gang: Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable hours). 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to study (a textbook may suffice). 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good on-line program. 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the need for more comprehensive ongoing education. For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something not interactive or challenging. But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of the things I listed above. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may find time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2 the time. If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2, demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them to waste the rest of that time? I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way. Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of hours of the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running. I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for any amount of time. G n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes > > In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there > have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. > If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how > will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let > the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My > daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State > of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see > your point--but there are two sides to it. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > RE: Online EMT Course > > > One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent > students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has > time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since > different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " > really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn > at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just > that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to > proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.  Other students take twice as > long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor > through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get > it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that > this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated > because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been > done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. > > Just my opinion... > > Jane Hill > > -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " > : -------------- > > Hey gang: > > Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of > on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook > author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and > do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract > theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page > in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic > Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th > grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. > Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, > reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the > national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based > (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of > interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director > through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations > Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all > special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and > Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am > a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National > Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: > > 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual > (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, > videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. > 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable > hours). > 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to > study (a textbook may suffice). > 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. > 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a > classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for > Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with > patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to > provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student > and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good > on-line program. > 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. > > For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics > must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this > on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). > Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the > need for more comprehensive ongoing education. > > For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be > fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and > clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running > through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS > people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced > computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something > not interactive or challenging. > > But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a > student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a > white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses > (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to > the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for > low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). > > I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on > the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work > again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for > the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS > programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of > the things I listed above. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may find time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2 the time. If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2, demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them to waste the rest of that time? I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way. Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of hours of the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running. I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for any amount of time. G n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes > > In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there > have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. > If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how > will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let > the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My > daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State > of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see > your point--but there are two sides to it. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > RE: Online EMT Course > > > One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent > students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has > time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since > different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " > really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn > at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just > that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to > proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.  Other students take twice as > long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor > through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get > it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that > this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated > because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been > done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. > > Just my opinion... > > Jane Hill > > -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " > : -------------- > > Hey gang: > > Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of > on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook > author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and > do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract > theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page > in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic > Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th > grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. > Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, > reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the > national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based > (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of > interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director > through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations > Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all > special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and > Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am > a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National > Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: > > 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual > (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, > videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. > 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable > hours). > 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to > study (a textbook may suffice). > 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. > 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a > classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for > Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with > patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to > provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student > and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good > on-line program. > 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. > > For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics > must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this > on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). > Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the > need for more comprehensive ongoing education. > > For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be > fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and > clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running > through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS > people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced > computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something > not interactive or challenging. > > But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a > student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a > white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses > (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to > the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for > low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). > > I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on > the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work > again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for > the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS > programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of > the things I listed above. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may find time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2 the time. If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2, demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them to waste the rest of that time? I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way. Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of hours of the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running. I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for any amount of time. G n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes > > In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there > have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. > If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how > will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let > the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My > daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State > of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see > your point--but there are two sides to it. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > RE: Online EMT Course > > > One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent > students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has > time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since > different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " > really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn > at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just > that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to > proceed is only irritating and unnecessary.  Other students take twice as > long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor > through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get > it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that > this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated > because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been > done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. > > Just my opinion... > > Jane Hill > > -------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " > : -------------- > > Hey gang: > > Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of > on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook > author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and > do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract > theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page > in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic > Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th > grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. > Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, > reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the > national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based > (although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of > interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director > through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations > Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all > special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and > Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am > a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National > Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: > > 1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual > (not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, > videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. > 2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable > hours). > 3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to > study (a textbook may suffice). > 4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area > to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. > 5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a > classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for > Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with > patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to > provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student > and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good > on-line program. > 6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. > > For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics > must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this > on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). > Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the > need for more comprehensive ongoing education. > > For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be > fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and > clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running > through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS > people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced > computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something > not interactive or challenging. > > But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a > student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a > white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses > (EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to > the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for > low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). > > I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on > the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work > again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for > the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS > programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of > the things I listed above. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors, coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth. We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning, modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them. No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the envelope of understanding. Anybody willing to second the motion? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors, coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth. We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning, modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them. No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the envelope of understanding. Anybody willing to second the motion? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors, coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth. We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning, modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them. No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the envelope of understanding. Anybody willing to second the motion? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 In a message dated 10/28/04 4:32:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wegandy1938@... writes: I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors, coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth. We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning, modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them. No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the envelope of understanding. Anybody willing to second the motion? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... I agree wholeheartedly with you, Gene. I think this would be very beneficial, interesting, and productive. Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 In a message dated 10/28/04 4:32:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wegandy1938@... writes: I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit. Just instructors, coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth. We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance learning, modular learning, flexible entry and exit, and have fun with them. No pedants, no salespeople, just educators exchanging ideas and pushing the envelope of understanding. Anybody willing to second the motion? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... I agree wholeheartedly with you, Gene. I think this would be very beneficial, interesting, and productive. Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? > > > You have it, Now the vote!!! > > > > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.  Just > instructors, > > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  > > > > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance > learning,  > > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,  and have fun with > them.  > > > > No pedants, no salespeople,  just educators exchanging ideas and > pushing the > > envelope of understanding. > > > > Anybody willing to second the motion? > > > > GG > > > > > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > > POB 1651 > > Albany, TX 76430 > > wegandy1938@a... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? > > > You have it, Now the vote!!! > > > > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.  Just > instructors, > > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  > > > > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance > learning,  > > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,  and have fun with > them.  > > > > No pedants, no salespeople,  just educators exchanging ideas and > pushing the > > envelope of understanding. > > > > Anybody willing to second the motion? > > > > GG > > > > > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > > POB 1651 > > Albany, TX 76430 > > wegandy1938@a... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? > > > You have it, Now the vote!!! > > > > I think we need to have an EMS Education Summit.  Just > instructors, > > coordinators, authors, course builders and so forth.  > > > > We should take some topics like problem based learning, distance > learning,  > > modular learning, flexible entry and exit,  and have fun with > them.  > > > > No pedants, no salespeople,  just educators exchanging ideas and > pushing the > > envelope of understanding. > > > > Anybody willing to second the motion? > > > > GG > > > > > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > > POB 1651 > > Albany, TX 76430 > > wegandy1938@a... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 What about at EMSTOCK next year? Get ourseffs off in a corner of the estate and do our thing there? GG E.(Gene) Gandy POB 1651 Albany, TX 76430 wegandy1938@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.