Re: (unknown)

[Guest guest]

2-4-6-8-how do you know that your minster's straight. Lez-b-n and all, I

drank like a fish out of water while dating a SA occifer. Made me question a

lot of ideals. Hell, 4 of the 6 ministers of the region were closet cases.

Doulblethink for sure.

>From: dixie@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: (unknown)

>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:45 -0600

>

>As I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend is in the Salvation Army Adult

>Rehabilitation Center. He's been there since last April, when he had to

>either go into a 3 to 8 month rehab program, or go to prison. Since he had

>no insurance, we were limited to free places, which pretty much means the

>Salvation Army (there's a couple other places around, all religious except

>one where your 'rehab' is working 7 days a week without pay, and you don't

>get to go anywhere or have outside visitors--essentially a slave-labor

>camp.)

>

>I'm not going to claim he's been an outstanding Salvation Army

>participant--he hasn't thrown himself into the program. He's done what's

>been required of him, but he hasn't been Mr. ny on the Spot. We get to

>see each other most evenings, even if all we do is come back home and he

>tinkers on the car or truck and I get on the comptuer, or we see his dad

>for dinner.

>

>Anyway (and I'll get into this in more detail later) they changed

>administrators in July. At first, we got along with the new administrator

>fine, but for some reason he doesn't like us. The Captain hasn't spoken to

>my boyfriend since October. He won't acknowledge me, and has refused to

>respond to a letter I wrote him, pointing out the he or a spokesman of his

>had repeatedly lied, an uncouth thing for a representative of a Christian

>organization.

>

>Anyway, in November, B., my BF, missed one meeting (he slept through a

>meeting one day, and the next chance he had to go to it, he was working.)

>For that, he was put on 30 days' restriction. No visitors, no leaving the

>Center, mandatory attendance at every meeting (2 or 3 a day). We made it

>through that, much to the Captain's disappointment, I'm sure. Since then,

>he's being doing his damndest to find an excuse to throw B. out. (I'm using

>my boyfriend's initial because he hasn't told me it's okay to share his

>story on a public forum such as this--he hasn't said I could't, but he also

>hasn't given me permission.)

>

>Well, last Wednesday was B.'s day off. We were involved in some things, and

>it wasn't until that evening that he remembered it had been Birthday night,

>when men who have had birthdays (either natal days or sobriety b-days) are

>recognized. It's mandatory. In the 10 months B.'s been at the center,

>they've never acknowleged him with a certificate or anything, but his

>birthday is in January. The Captain, through the chain of command (the

>chicken shit guy won't talk to B. directly--there are approx. 90 men there,

>he sees B. in the store every day, but he hasn't said more than 2 sentences

>to him in 3 months) told B. to write a letter explaining his absence on

>Birthday night and explaining why the Captain should let him go on pass

>this weekend (which happens to be the last day of deer season.) B. wrote a

>note, explaining that he had gotten busy and B-day night had totally

>slipped his mind, but that wasn't much of an excuse, so perhaps he

>shouldn't be allowed to go on pass this weekend.

>

>Well, today, the verdict came down: B. has to be out by February 28.

>They're throwing him out.

>

>The probation/court/possibility of prison which sent him to the Salvation

>Army in the first place has been resolved, but B. still has 2 DWIs hanging

>over his head. The idea with trying to complete the Salv. Army's year-long

>program was that he could avoid or diminish jail time. That's all that's

>keeping him there.

>

>Anyway, the Captain let it be known that B. had to write a " recovery plan "

>letter, saying what he was going to do. So B. and I crafted this out

>tonight. I just wanted to run it by y'all for your comments. I essentially

>wanted to say " fuck off, asshole " in a very nice way, in such a way that he

>couldn't really criticize B. for it later. Suggestions, anyone?

>

>Dear Captain McIntyre,

>

>This letter is to give you my two weeks' notice and let you know I am

>resigning my position as cashier and will be leaving the center on Friday,

>February 16.

>

>I feel I have come a long way while I have been in the Salvation Army. I

>have been through AA many times before, and always had a hard time

>committing to it. Some AA ideas conflicted directly with my beliefs, and I

>disliked the defeatism built into AA, as evidenced by taking sobriety one

>day at a time, with relapse just around the corner, instead of planning on

>living a life of sobriety; and the total lack of self-will and

>self-control, which leads to a defeatist attitude--if we are not

>responsible for our drinking, how can we be responsible for our sobriety?

>

>While at the Salvation Army, I saw a number of men relapse again and again

>and again. I was determined not to be one of them. I have attended AA

>regularly in the past, but there would always come a day when I felt like

>drinking, and God wasn't there to stop me, no matter how hard I prayed. I

>knew I didn't want to--indeed, I cannot afford to--go back to that

>lifestyle. I started looking for alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous, and

>found that there are many people who are not only frustrated with AA but

>who even feel abused by 12 step programs. While I wouldn't go so far as to

>say I feel coerced and abused by them, I never felt AA helped me all that

>much. I found programs such as Save Our Selves/LifeRing and Rational

>Recovery to be much more sensible, and I like the idea of planning for a

>lifetime of sobriety rather than teetering on the brink of relapse each

>day. While I don't wholeheartedly endorse any one philosophy, I have taken

>elements of each of the three programs and found something that works for

>me. I have committed myself to a life of planned abstinence, and I am

>learning how to recognize and overcome the desire to drink. As long as I

>never take that first drink, I don't have to worry about what the

>subsequent ones will do to me. And as you know, I am fortunate to have a

>very supportive family environment that will help me along my path of

>recovery.

>

>I know you are frustrated by the fact that I did not relapse during my 10

>months at the Center, while people you had a great deal of faith in and who

> " walked the Christian walk " failed in spite of their great faith. It has

>not gone unnoticed that you reward those who have been in and out of

>centers repeatedly by giving them swift promotions to important positions.

>I can look around me and see the many men who have been in and out of

>Salvation Army ARCs for many years in a vicious cycle of rehab and

>drunkenness, and I know that I don't want to live that life. I want to live

>a normal, sober home life. Although I had wanted to finish out my year

>program at the Salvation Army, you apparently feel I am ready to step out

>on my own--though I have noticed you have not been able to bring yourself

>to tell me that directly--and I concur. I believe it is time for me to

>leave the Center, return to my partner, and continue to get my life in

>order. I have bills to pay, and Dixie needs my help on the ranch and with

>her various ventures. It is time for me to return to regular society.

>

>So I have been looking for outside employment, in accordance with the

>program requirements for the 271st through 335th days, and I believe I have

>a job lined up. They seem eager for someone to start right away, but I do

>of course want to give you two weeks' notice, as is fit and proper.

>

>In the meantime, I would certainly be willing to chair an AA meeting. I

>will not, of course, violate the traditions of AA and force my religion on

>others, as one program coordinator did in the meetings he chaired. I will

>be respectful of the individuals and individual beliefs of the people in

>any meetings I chair, in accordance with AA guidelines and principles.

>

>I thank you and the Salvation Army for giving me this opportunity to

>straighten my life out. I feel I have grown and matured a great deal in the

>past 10 months, and I look forward to continuing on with my life. I have

>learned much--what I do and do not want to be, how to craft a recovery

>program that will work for me, how to deal with unpleasant and stressful

>situations, how to swallow my pride--the Salvation Army has taught me a

>great deal. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity to be a part of

>this program.

>

>With kindest regards,

>

>B.K.

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

2-4-6-8-how do you know that your minster's straight. Lez-b-n and all, I

drank like a fish out of water while dating a SA occifer. Made me question a

lot of ideals. Hell, 4 of the 6 ministers of the region were closet cases.

Doulblethink for sure.

>From: dixie@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: (unknown)

>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:45 -0600

>

>As I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend is in the Salvation Army Adult

>Rehabilitation Center. He's been there since last April, when he had to

>either go into a 3 to 8 month rehab program, or go to prison. Since he had

>no insurance, we were limited to free places, which pretty much means the

>Salvation Army (there's a couple other places around, all religious except

>one where your 'rehab' is working 7 days a week without pay, and you don't

>get to go anywhere or have outside visitors--essentially a slave-labor

>camp.)

>

>I'm not going to claim he's been an outstanding Salvation Army

>participant--he hasn't thrown himself into the program. He's done what's

>been required of him, but he hasn't been Mr. ny on the Spot. We get to

>see each other most evenings, even if all we do is come back home and he

>tinkers on the car or truck and I get on the comptuer, or we see his dad

>for dinner.

>

>Anyway (and I'll get into this in more detail later) they changed

>administrators in July. At first, we got along with the new administrator

>fine, but for some reason he doesn't like us. The Captain hasn't spoken to

>my boyfriend since October. He won't acknowledge me, and has refused to

>respond to a letter I wrote him, pointing out the he or a spokesman of his

>had repeatedly lied, an uncouth thing for a representative of a Christian

>organization.

>

>Anyway, in November, B., my BF, missed one meeting (he slept through a

>meeting one day, and the next chance he had to go to it, he was working.)

>For that, he was put on 30 days' restriction. No visitors, no leaving the

>Center, mandatory attendance at every meeting (2 or 3 a day). We made it

>through that, much to the Captain's disappointment, I'm sure. Since then,

>he's being doing his damndest to find an excuse to throw B. out. (I'm using

>my boyfriend's initial because he hasn't told me it's okay to share his

>story on a public forum such as this--he hasn't said I could't, but he also

>hasn't given me permission.)

>

>Well, last Wednesday was B.'s day off. We were involved in some things, and

>it wasn't until that evening that he remembered it had been Birthday night,

>when men who have had birthdays (either natal days or sobriety b-days) are

>recognized. It's mandatory. In the 10 months B.'s been at the center,

>they've never acknowleged him with a certificate or anything, but his

>birthday is in January. The Captain, through the chain of command (the

>chicken shit guy won't talk to B. directly--there are approx. 90 men there,

>he sees B. in the store every day, but he hasn't said more than 2 sentences

>to him in 3 months) told B. to write a letter explaining his absence on

>Birthday night and explaining why the Captain should let him go on pass

>this weekend (which happens to be the last day of deer season.) B. wrote a

>note, explaining that he had gotten busy and B-day night had totally

>slipped his mind, but that wasn't much of an excuse, so perhaps he

>shouldn't be allowed to go on pass this weekend.

>

>Well, today, the verdict came down: B. has to be out by February 28.

>They're throwing him out.

>

>The probation/court/possibility of prison which sent him to the Salvation

>Army in the first place has been resolved, but B. still has 2 DWIs hanging

>over his head. The idea with trying to complete the Salv. Army's year-long

>program was that he could avoid or diminish jail time. That's all that's

>keeping him there.

>

>Anyway, the Captain let it be known that B. had to write a " recovery plan "

>letter, saying what he was going to do. So B. and I crafted this out

>tonight. I just wanted to run it by y'all for your comments. I essentially

>wanted to say " fuck off, asshole " in a very nice way, in such a way that he

>couldn't really criticize B. for it later. Suggestions, anyone?

>

>Dear Captain McIntyre,

>

>This letter is to give you my two weeks' notice and let you know I am

>resigning my position as cashier and will be leaving the center on Friday,

>February 16.

>

>I feel I have come a long way while I have been in the Salvation Army. I

>have been through AA many times before, and always had a hard time

>committing to it. Some AA ideas conflicted directly with my beliefs, and I

>disliked the defeatism built into AA, as evidenced by taking sobriety one

>day at a time, with relapse just around the corner, instead of planning on

>living a life of sobriety; and the total lack of self-will and

>self-control, which leads to a defeatist attitude--if we are not

>responsible for our drinking, how can we be responsible for our sobriety?

>

>While at the Salvation Army, I saw a number of men relapse again and again

>and again. I was determined not to be one of them. I have attended AA

>regularly in the past, but there would always come a day when I felt like

>drinking, and God wasn't there to stop me, no matter how hard I prayed. I

>knew I didn't want to--indeed, I cannot afford to--go back to that

>lifestyle. I started looking for alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous, and

>found that there are many people who are not only frustrated with AA but

>who even feel abused by 12 step programs. While I wouldn't go so far as to

>say I feel coerced and abused by them, I never felt AA helped me all that

>much. I found programs such as Save Our Selves/LifeRing and Rational

>Recovery to be much more sensible, and I like the idea of planning for a

>lifetime of sobriety rather than teetering on the brink of relapse each

>day. While I don't wholeheartedly endorse any one philosophy, I have taken

>elements of each of the three programs and found something that works for

>me. I have committed myself to a life of planned abstinence, and I am

>learning how to recognize and overcome the desire to drink. As long as I

>never take that first drink, I don't have to worry about what the

>subsequent ones will do to me. And as you know, I am fortunate to have a

>very supportive family environment that will help me along my path of

>recovery.

>

>I know you are frustrated by the fact that I did not relapse during my 10

>months at the Center, while people you had a great deal of faith in and who

> " walked the Christian walk " failed in spite of their great faith. It has

>not gone unnoticed that you reward those who have been in and out of

>centers repeatedly by giving them swift promotions to important positions.

>I can look around me and see the many men who have been in and out of

>Salvation Army ARCs for many years in a vicious cycle of rehab and

>drunkenness, and I know that I don't want to live that life. I want to live

>a normal, sober home life. Although I had wanted to finish out my year

>program at the Salvation Army, you apparently feel I am ready to step out

>on my own--though I have noticed you have not been able to bring yourself

>to tell me that directly--and I concur. I believe it is time for me to

>leave the Center, return to my partner, and continue to get my life in

>order. I have bills to pay, and Dixie needs my help on the ranch and with

>her various ventures. It is time for me to return to regular society.

>

>So I have been looking for outside employment, in accordance with the

>program requirements for the 271st through 335th days, and I believe I have

>a job lined up. They seem eager for someone to start right away, but I do

>of course want to give you two weeks' notice, as is fit and proper.

>

>In the meantime, I would certainly be willing to chair an AA meeting. I

>will not, of course, violate the traditions of AA and force my religion on

>others, as one program coordinator did in the meetings he chaired. I will

>be respectful of the individuals and individual beliefs of the people in

>any meetings I chair, in accordance with AA guidelines and principles.

>

>I thank you and the Salvation Army for giving me this opportunity to

>straighten my life out. I feel I have grown and matured a great deal in the

>past 10 months, and I look forward to continuing on with my life. I have

>learned much--what I do and do not want to be, how to craft a recovery

>program that will work for me, how to deal with unpleasant and stressful

>situations, how to swallow my pride--the Salvation Army has taught me a

>great deal. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity to be a part of

>this program.

>

>With kindest regards,

>

>B.K.

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

2-4-6-8-how do you know that your minster's straight. Lez-b-n and all, I

drank like a fish out of water while dating a SA occifer. Made me question a

lot of ideals. Hell, 4 of the 6 ministers of the region were closet cases.

Doulblethink for sure.

>From: dixie@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: (unknown)

>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:45 -0600

>

>As I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend is in the Salvation Army Adult

>Rehabilitation Center. He's been there since last April, when he had to

>either go into a 3 to 8 month rehab program, or go to prison. Since he had

>no insurance, we were limited to free places, which pretty much means the

>Salvation Army (there's a couple other places around, all religious except

>one where your 'rehab' is working 7 days a week without pay, and you don't

>get to go anywhere or have outside visitors--essentially a slave-labor

>camp.)

>

>I'm not going to claim he's been an outstanding Salvation Army

>participant--he hasn't thrown himself into the program. He's done what's

>been required of him, but he hasn't been Mr. ny on the Spot. We get to

>see each other most evenings, even if all we do is come back home and he

>tinkers on the car or truck and I get on the comptuer, or we see his dad

>for dinner.

>

>Anyway (and I'll get into this in more detail later) they changed

>administrators in July. At first, we got along with the new administrator

>fine, but for some reason he doesn't like us. The Captain hasn't spoken to

>my boyfriend since October. He won't acknowledge me, and has refused to

>respond to a letter I wrote him, pointing out the he or a spokesman of his

>had repeatedly lied, an uncouth thing for a representative of a Christian

>organization.

>

>Anyway, in November, B., my BF, missed one meeting (he slept through a

>meeting one day, and the next chance he had to go to it, he was working.)

>For that, he was put on 30 days' restriction. No visitors, no leaving the

>Center, mandatory attendance at every meeting (2 or 3 a day). We made it

>through that, much to the Captain's disappointment, I'm sure. Since then,

>he's being doing his damndest to find an excuse to throw B. out. (I'm using

>my boyfriend's initial because he hasn't told me it's okay to share his

>story on a public forum such as this--he hasn't said I could't, but he also

>hasn't given me permission.)

>

>Well, last Wednesday was B.'s day off. We were involved in some things, and

>it wasn't until that evening that he remembered it had been Birthday night,

>when men who have had birthdays (either natal days or sobriety b-days) are

>recognized. It's mandatory. In the 10 months B.'s been at the center,

>they've never acknowleged him with a certificate or anything, but his

>birthday is in January. The Captain, through the chain of command (the

>chicken shit guy won't talk to B. directly--there are approx. 90 men there,

>he sees B. in the store every day, but he hasn't said more than 2 sentences

>to him in 3 months) told B. to write a letter explaining his absence on

>Birthday night and explaining why the Captain should let him go on pass

>this weekend (which happens to be the last day of deer season.) B. wrote a

>note, explaining that he had gotten busy and B-day night had totally

>slipped his mind, but that wasn't much of an excuse, so perhaps he

>shouldn't be allowed to go on pass this weekend.

>

>Well, today, the verdict came down: B. has to be out by February 28.

>They're throwing him out.

>

>The probation/court/possibility of prison which sent him to the Salvation

>Army in the first place has been resolved, but B. still has 2 DWIs hanging

>over his head. The idea with trying to complete the Salv. Army's year-long

>program was that he could avoid or diminish jail time. That's all that's

>keeping him there.

>

>Anyway, the Captain let it be known that B. had to write a " recovery plan "

>letter, saying what he was going to do. So B. and I crafted this out

>tonight. I just wanted to run it by y'all for your comments. I essentially

>wanted to say " fuck off, asshole " in a very nice way, in such a way that he

>couldn't really criticize B. for it later. Suggestions, anyone?

>

>Dear Captain McIntyre,

>

>This letter is to give you my two weeks' notice and let you know I am

>resigning my position as cashier and will be leaving the center on Friday,

>February 16.

>

>I feel I have come a long way while I have been in the Salvation Army. I

>have been through AA many times before, and always had a hard time

>committing to it. Some AA ideas conflicted directly with my beliefs, and I

>disliked the defeatism built into AA, as evidenced by taking sobriety one

>day at a time, with relapse just around the corner, instead of planning on

>living a life of sobriety; and the total lack of self-will and

>self-control, which leads to a defeatist attitude--if we are not

>responsible for our drinking, how can we be responsible for our sobriety?

>

>While at the Salvation Army, I saw a number of men relapse again and again

>and again. I was determined not to be one of them. I have attended AA

>regularly in the past, but there would always come a day when I felt like

>drinking, and God wasn't there to stop me, no matter how hard I prayed. I

>knew I didn't want to--indeed, I cannot afford to--go back to that

>lifestyle. I started looking for alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous, and

>found that there are many people who are not only frustrated with AA but

>who even feel abused by 12 step programs. While I wouldn't go so far as to

>say I feel coerced and abused by them, I never felt AA helped me all that

>much. I found programs such as Save Our Selves/LifeRing and Rational

>Recovery to be much more sensible, and I like the idea of planning for a

>lifetime of sobriety rather than teetering on the brink of relapse each

>day. While I don't wholeheartedly endorse any one philosophy, I have taken

>elements of each of the three programs and found something that works for

>me. I have committed myself to a life of planned abstinence, and I am

>learning how to recognize and overcome the desire to drink. As long as I

>never take that first drink, I don't have to worry about what the

>subsequent ones will do to me. And as you know, I am fortunate to have a

>very supportive family environment that will help me along my path of

>recovery.

>

>I know you are frustrated by the fact that I did not relapse during my 10

>months at the Center, while people you had a great deal of faith in and who

> " walked the Christian walk " failed in spite of their great faith. It has

>not gone unnoticed that you reward those who have been in and out of

>centers repeatedly by giving them swift promotions to important positions.

>I can look around me and see the many men who have been in and out of

>Salvation Army ARCs for many years in a vicious cycle of rehab and

>drunkenness, and I know that I don't want to live that life. I want to live

>a normal, sober home life. Although I had wanted to finish out my year

>program at the Salvation Army, you apparently feel I am ready to step out

>on my own--though I have noticed you have not been able to bring yourself

>to tell me that directly--and I concur. I believe it is time for me to

>leave the Center, return to my partner, and continue to get my life in

>order. I have bills to pay, and Dixie needs my help on the ranch and with

>her various ventures. It is time for me to return to regular society.

>

>So I have been looking for outside employment, in accordance with the

>program requirements for the 271st through 335th days, and I believe I have

>a job lined up. They seem eager for someone to start right away, but I do

>of course want to give you two weeks' notice, as is fit and proper.

>

>In the meantime, I would certainly be willing to chair an AA meeting. I

>will not, of course, violate the traditions of AA and force my religion on

>others, as one program coordinator did in the meetings he chaired. I will

>be respectful of the individuals and individual beliefs of the people in

>any meetings I chair, in accordance with AA guidelines and principles.

>

>I thank you and the Salvation Army for giving me this opportunity to

>straighten my life out. I feel I have grown and matured a great deal in the

>past 10 months, and I look forward to continuing on with my life. I have

>learned much--what I do and do not want to be, how to craft a recovery

>program that will work for me, how to deal with unpleasant and stressful

>situations, how to swallow my pride--the Salvation Army has taught me a

>great deal. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity to be a part of

>this program.

>

>With kindest regards,

>

>B.K.

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I assume you will find what works for you. I doubt it will be AA, in the

end.

Just because swans mate for life, I don't think its that big a deal. First

of all, if you're a swan, you're probably not going to find a swan that

looks much better than the one you've got, so why not mate for life?

(unknown)

> Wally: Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I truly

> drank responsibly from age 16 (when I first got drunk)

> until age 23 (when a lover died of AIDS and, for the

> first time, I chose to go get as drunk as possible to

> drown out my sorrows. That experience, and the three

> years of out of control drinking which followed, fit

> my definition of alcoholic drinking).

>

> In those seven years between ages 16 and 23, however,

> I had no drinking experiences bad enough to warrant

> anything close to being labelled " alcoholic. " From 16

> to 18, in fact, I didn't drink at all, except for that

> one Bacardi binge at 16, due solely to peer pressure,

> in that Atlanta hotel room with the other high school

> kids. All my other drinking has been legal, beer, as

> was legal then, from 18 on up, then my second taste of

> liquor (after the Bicardi at 16) on my 21st birthday.

> I still remember: Brunch at the Jade Elephant,

> Richmond, Virginia, champagne and OJ. Happy Birthday.

>

>

> In those seven years, though I might have had one or

> two episodes of overindulgence, I quickly learned from

> them and really did NOT " have a problem " with my

> drinking. I neither believed I was an alcoholic nor

> fought against that belief. The thought simply never

> even entered my mind. It was like unto the way, as

> one minister put it, white people don't see themselves

> as white people, they see themselves as normal people.

> One of the hardest things for me to accept is that I

> seem unable to return to that state prior to 's

> death when I could actually enjoy a drink without

> worrying that I would give in to the compulsion to

> overindulge.

>

> The " desperately " wanting to believe that I was not an

> alcoholic didn't come into play until about six months

> after died and I simply couldn't stop drinking

> for any length of time. I had no earthly exposure to

> the steps prior to my first AA meeting three years

> later.

>

> If all of that doesn't convince you that I " evolved "

> into an alcoholic rather than being " talked into " it,

> there's nothing more I can say. I'm through talking.

> I know, through repeated failed attempts (literally

> hundreds) to overcome my " allergy " (in quotes) and

> obsession, that my drinking behavior is based on more

> than a belief system, as much as I wish it were that

> simple.

>

> By the way, other than the interpretation, your

> experience sounds much like mine, except for the

> ending when you found what truly works for you. Thank

> you for having the magnanimity others apparently lack

> by affirming my right to use AA as a source of social

> support while exploring other options. --CTT

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I assume you will find what works for you. I doubt it will be AA, in the

end.

Just because swans mate for life, I don't think its that big a deal. First

of all, if you're a swan, you're probably not going to find a swan that

looks much better than the one you've got, so why not mate for life?

(unknown)

> Wally: Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I truly

> drank responsibly from age 16 (when I first got drunk)

> until age 23 (when a lover died of AIDS and, for the

> first time, I chose to go get as drunk as possible to

> drown out my sorrows. That experience, and the three

> years of out of control drinking which followed, fit

> my definition of alcoholic drinking).

>

> In those seven years between ages 16 and 23, however,

> I had no drinking experiences bad enough to warrant

> anything close to being labelled " alcoholic. " From 16

> to 18, in fact, I didn't drink at all, except for that

> one Bacardi binge at 16, due solely to peer pressure,

> in that Atlanta hotel room with the other high school

> kids. All my other drinking has been legal, beer, as

> was legal then, from 18 on up, then my second taste of

> liquor (after the Bicardi at 16) on my 21st birthday.

> I still remember: Brunch at the Jade Elephant,

> Richmond, Virginia, champagne and OJ. Happy Birthday.

>

>

> In those seven years, though I might have had one or

> two episodes of overindulgence, I quickly learned from

> them and really did NOT " have a problem " with my

> drinking. I neither believed I was an alcoholic nor

> fought against that belief. The thought simply never

> even entered my mind. It was like unto the way, as

> one minister put it, white people don't see themselves

> as white people, they see themselves as normal people.

> One of the hardest things for me to accept is that I

> seem unable to return to that state prior to 's

> death when I could actually enjoy a drink without

> worrying that I would give in to the compulsion to

> overindulge.

>

> The " desperately " wanting to believe that I was not an

> alcoholic didn't come into play until about six months

> after died and I simply couldn't stop drinking

> for any length of time. I had no earthly exposure to

> the steps prior to my first AA meeting three years

> later.

>

> If all of that doesn't convince you that I " evolved "

> into an alcoholic rather than being " talked into " it,

> there's nothing more I can say. I'm through talking.

> I know, through repeated failed attempts (literally

> hundreds) to overcome my " allergy " (in quotes) and

> obsession, that my drinking behavior is based on more

> than a belief system, as much as I wish it were that

> simple.

>

> By the way, other than the interpretation, your

> experience sounds much like mine, except for the

> ending when you found what truly works for you. Thank

> you for having the magnanimity others apparently lack

> by affirming my right to use AA as a source of social

> support while exploring other options. --CTT

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I assume you will find what works for you. I doubt it will be AA, in the

end.

Just because swans mate for life, I don't think its that big a deal. First

of all, if you're a swan, you're probably not going to find a swan that

looks much better than the one you've got, so why not mate for life?

(unknown)

> Wally: Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I truly

> drank responsibly from age 16 (when I first got drunk)

> until age 23 (when a lover died of AIDS and, for the

> first time, I chose to go get as drunk as possible to

> drown out my sorrows. That experience, and the three

> years of out of control drinking which followed, fit

> my definition of alcoholic drinking).

>

> In those seven years between ages 16 and 23, however,

> I had no drinking experiences bad enough to warrant

> anything close to being labelled " alcoholic. " From 16

> to 18, in fact, I didn't drink at all, except for that

> one Bacardi binge at 16, due solely to peer pressure,

> in that Atlanta hotel room with the other high school

> kids. All my other drinking has been legal, beer, as

> was legal then, from 18 on up, then my second taste of

> liquor (after the Bicardi at 16) on my 21st birthday.

> I still remember: Brunch at the Jade Elephant,

> Richmond, Virginia, champagne and OJ. Happy Birthday.

>

>

> In those seven years, though I might have had one or

> two episodes of overindulgence, I quickly learned from

> them and really did NOT " have a problem " with my

> drinking. I neither believed I was an alcoholic nor

> fought against that belief. The thought simply never

> even entered my mind. It was like unto the way, as

> one minister put it, white people don't see themselves

> as white people, they see themselves as normal people.

> One of the hardest things for me to accept is that I

> seem unable to return to that state prior to 's

> death when I could actually enjoy a drink without

> worrying that I would give in to the compulsion to

> overindulge.

>

> The " desperately " wanting to believe that I was not an

> alcoholic didn't come into play until about six months

> after died and I simply couldn't stop drinking

> for any length of time. I had no earthly exposure to

> the steps prior to my first AA meeting three years

> later.

>

> If all of that doesn't convince you that I " evolved "

> into an alcoholic rather than being " talked into " it,

> there's nothing more I can say. I'm through talking.

> I know, through repeated failed attempts (literally

> hundreds) to overcome my " allergy " (in quotes) and

> obsession, that my drinking behavior is based on more

> than a belief system, as much as I wish it were that

> simple.

>

> By the way, other than the interpretation, your

> experience sounds much like mine, except for the

> ending when you found what truly works for you. Thank

> you for having the magnanimity others apparently lack

> by affirming my right to use AA as a source of social

> support while exploring other options. --CTT

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Keri-

I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

hope things get better. As for watching other

people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

--- Keri Hejl wrote:

> everyone,

> I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny) I

> am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want my

> own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me vent

> because I am going to loose it soon if I

> can't.-----Keri

>

>

> Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> Shopping!

> http://www.shopping.altavista.com

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Keri-

I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

hope things get better. As for watching other

people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

--- Keri Hejl wrote:

> everyone,

> I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny) I

> am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want my

> own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me vent

> because I am going to loose it soon if I

> can't.-----Keri

>

>

> Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> Shopping!

> http://www.shopping.altavista.com

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

, Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when I am going through all these

emotions I either want to scream or cry and I can't really do that around the

kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> Keri-

> I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

> hope things get better. As for watching other

> people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

> have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

> kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

>

>

> --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > everyone,

> > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> > in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> > kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny) I

> > am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want my

> > own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me vent

> > because I am going to loose it soon if I

> > can't.-----Keri

> >

> >

> > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> > Shopping!

> > http://www.shopping.altavista.com

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

, Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when I am going through all these

emotions I either want to scream or cry and I can't really do that around the

kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> Keri-

> I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

> hope things get better. As for watching other

> people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

> have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

> kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

>

>

> --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > everyone,

> > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> > in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> > kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny) I

> > am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want my

> > own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me vent

> > because I am going to loose it soon if I

> > can't.-----Keri

> >

> >

> > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> > Shopping!

> > http://www.shopping.altavista.com

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

, Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when I am going through all these

emotions I either want to scream or cry and I can't really do that around the

kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> Keri-

> I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

> hope things get better. As for watching other

> people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

> have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

> kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

>

>

> --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > everyone,

> > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> > in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> > kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny) I

> > am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want my

> > own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me vent

> > because I am going to loose it soon if I

> > can't.-----Keri

> >

> >

> > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> > Shopping!

> > http://www.shopping.altavista.com

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

, Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when I am going through all these

emotions I either want to scream or cry and I can't really do that around the

kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> Keri-

> I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day. I

> hope things get better. As for watching other

> people's kids, just think of all the practice you will

> have for when your baby comes along!! Besides, those

> kids are lucky to have someone like you in their life.

>

>

> --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > everyone,

> > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day. I

> > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me and

> > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because the

> > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to get

> > in for blood work to find out if it is another ep.

> > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone and

> > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so I

> > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was thinking

> > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all going

> > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I am

> > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and The

> > kids

Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!

http://www.shopping.altavista.com

[Guest guest]

Keri-

Staying positive is not always easy...specially when

those dam emotions pop up whenever they want.

--- Keri Hejl wrote:

> , Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when

> I am going through all these emotions I either want

> to scream or cry and I can't really do that around

> the kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I

> need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> >

> > Keri-

> > I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day.

> I

> > hope things get better. As for watching other

> > people's kids, just think of all the practice you

> will

> > have for when your baby comes along!! Besides,

> those

> > kids are lucky to have someone like you in their

> life.

> >

> >

> > --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > > everyone,

> > > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day.

> I

> > > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me

> and

> > > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because

> the

> > > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to

> get

> > > in for blood work to find out if it is another

> ep.

> > > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone

> and

> > > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so

> I

> > > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was

> thinking

> > > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all

> going

> > > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I

> am

> > > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and

> The

> > > kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny)

> I

> > > am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want

> my

> > > own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me

> vent

> > > because I am going to loose it soon if I

> > > can't.-----Keri

> > >

> > >

> > > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> > > Shopping!

> > > http://www.shopping.altavista.com

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Keri-

Staying positive is not always easy...specially when

those dam emotions pop up whenever they want.

--- Keri Hejl wrote:

> , Yeah I know I love the kids and all but when

> I am going through all these emotions I either want

> to scream or cry and I can't really do that around

> the kids. I don't want to upset them. Your right I

> need to be more positive.---Keri

>

> >

> > Keri-

> > I am sorry to hear that you are having a bad day.

> I

> > hope things get better. As for watching other

> > people's kids, just think of all the practice you

> will

> > have for when your baby comes along!! Besides,

> those

> > kids are lucky to have someone like you in their

> life.

> >

> >

> > --- Keri Hejl wrote:

> > > everyone,

> > > I am going crazy. I am having a really bad day.

> I

> > > had a dream last night that I was preg. and me

> and

> > > Heath were trying to call the doctor, because

> the

> > > doctor said the minute I find out I am preg. to

> get

> > > in for blood work to find out if it is another

> ep.

> > > Well the whole dream we could never find a phone

> and

> > > when we did I was always dialing the wrong # so

> I

> > > was in a panic and then I woke up and I was

> thinking

> > > oh it was just a dream but it is not its all

> going

> > > to happen when we do decide to ttc I feel like I

> am

> > > in a nightmare, I think I am getting a cold and

> The

> > > kids are driving me crazy today! (i am a nanny)

> I

> > > am tired of watching other peoples kids. I want

> my

> > > own!!!!!! I am glad you all are here to let me

> vent

> > > because I am going to loose it soon if I

> > > can't.-----Keri

> > >

> > >

> > > Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista

> > > Shopping!

> > > http://www.shopping.altavista.com

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

,

I am sorry to hear your dog was sick, what was it? How are things going? How

are you feeling? I am kind of scared. I don't like this waiting and wondering,

and I am kind of dissapointed in myself for not waiting until we are married,

but I felt ready and also a kind of urgency to get preg. soon. because I feel

like with time my tubes will get worse. I feel so scatterbrained. ------Keri

>

> me and Heath are in the 2ww! where are you?!!!---Keri

>

>

> Hi Keri,

> Congratulations on being in the 2ww!!!!! Sorry to have disappeared, I have

been immensely busy, between work, pregnancy, and one of our little dogs being

sick it's been very hectic.

> maria

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am sorry to hear your dog was sick, what was it? How are things going? How

are you feeling? I am kind of scared. I don't like this waiting and wondering,

and I am kind of dissapointed in myself for not waiting until we are married,

but I felt ready and also a kind of urgency to get preg. soon. because I feel

like with time my tubes will get worse. I feel so scatterbrained. ------Keri

>

> me and Heath are in the 2ww! where are you?!!!---Keri

>

>

> Hi Keri,

> Congratulations on being in the 2ww!!!!! Sorry to have disappeared, I have

been immensely busy, between work, pregnancy, and one of our little dogs being

sick it's been very hectic.

> maria

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

me and Heath are in the 2ww! where are you?!!!---Keri

Hi Keri,

Congratulations on being in the 2ww!!!!! Sorry to have disappeared, I have

been immensely busy, between work, pregnancy, and one of our little dogs being

sick it's been very hectic.

maria

[Guest guest]

me and Heath are in the 2ww! where are you?!!!---Keri

Hi Keri,

Congratulations on being in the 2ww!!!!! Sorry to have disappeared, I have

been immensely busy, between work, pregnancy, and one of our little dogs being

sick it's been very hectic.

maria

[Guest guest]

,

I had an ep in July of '99. I was 28 years old at the time. I think people

saying that losing the baby was a good thing because of your age need to be

smacked around a few times. Losing a baby at any age is hard and just

because your only 17 doesn't mean that your not gonna feel the pain of losing

that child just like a women at 40 would. I recently joined this group

myself and I have found a better outlook on the future. I still have crappy

days and somedays are better than others. But you will see there are alot of

success stories here and you will find that it will make ttc when your ready

again something to keep in mind. I was told that I had no risk factors for

having an ep, but it still happened. Try not to think about what other

people say or how they feel you should feel, because I think some of them

that have all that expert opinions would never survive what we have been

thru. We are not sumo wrestlers here, but I think having had an ep makes you

realize that you can withstand anything and everything emotionally and

physically and you are more of a woman than anyone of them could ever be in

their pinky finger. Take care.

Sheila

[Guest guest]

,

I had an ep in July of '99. I was 28 years old at the time. I think people

saying that losing the baby was a good thing because of your age need to be

smacked around a few times. Losing a baby at any age is hard and just

because your only 17 doesn't mean that your not gonna feel the pain of losing

that child just like a women at 40 would. I recently joined this group

myself and I have found a better outlook on the future. I still have crappy

days and somedays are better than others. But you will see there are alot of

success stories here and you will find that it will make ttc when your ready

again something to keep in mind. I was told that I had no risk factors for

having an ep, but it still happened. Try not to think about what other

people say or how they feel you should feel, because I think some of them

that have all that expert opinions would never survive what we have been

thru. We are not sumo wrestlers here, but I think having had an ep makes you

realize that you can withstand anything and everything emotionally and

physically and you are more of a woman than anyone of them could ever be in

their pinky finger. Take care.

Sheila

[Guest guest]

,

You have came to the right place for love and support. the ladies here are so

kind and caring.

It doesnt matter how old you are, this is painful on you and isnt for the

best.

There is many women go on to have beautiful babies with only one tube.

Dont worry about that. you will be pg again, darling. And this is something

to make a big fuss about. You arent doing anything wrong by mourning or

hurting. Keep your head up and your spirits also. God will watch over you,

amanda.

love,

Crystal

[Guest guest]

,

You have came to the right place for love and support. the ladies here are so

kind and caring.

It doesnt matter how old you are, this is painful on you and isnt for the

best.

There is many women go on to have beautiful babies with only one tube.

Dont worry about that. you will be pg again, darling. And this is something

to make a big fuss about. You arent doing anything wrong by mourning or

hurting. Keep your head up and your spirits also. God will watch over you,

amanda.

love,

Crystal

[Guest guest]

,

You have came to the right place for love and support. the ladies here are so

kind and caring.

It doesnt matter how old you are, this is painful on you and isnt for the

best.

There is many women go on to have beautiful babies with only one tube.

Dont worry about that. you will be pg again, darling. And this is something

to make a big fuss about. You arent doing anything wrong by mourning or

hurting. Keep your head up and your spirits also. God will watch over you,

amanda.

love,

Crystal

[Guest guest]

>A question, I still have the scars from when they took the tube out and they

are still a bit sore any good remedies??

HI ,

I used Silvadene and Saran Wrap. I know it sounds funny, Silvadene is usually

used for burn victims but does decrease healing time. If you cover the area

with Saran Wrap (and it must be Saran Wrap brand) it keeps air from touching the

spot and helps the area to heal in 1/3 the time.

maria

[Guest guest]

>A question, I still have the scars from when they took the tube out and they

are still a bit sore any good remedies??

HI ,

I used Silvadene and Saran Wrap. I know it sounds funny, Silvadene is usually

used for burn victims but does decrease healing time. If you cover the area

with Saran Wrap (and it must be Saran Wrap brand) it keeps air from touching the

spot and helps the area to heal in 1/3 the time.

maria