RE:

[Guest guest]

It's nice that there are moments of normalcy in these kids, but how long do

they have to be " normal " before we can sit back and relax and say they ARE

normal? If my daughter went for almost 4 years (4YEARS) and then reverted

back,

does anyone really ever know when the disease has abated?

Food for thought.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jan,

That was wonderful, you made me cry. Mine was put out on Monday, saying

she would never speak to me again, that I have just lost my daughter. She has

no clue. I haven't heard from her since. I did find out she made it to

school on Tuesday, but not since.

So it goes. I feel your pain and your joy at the simple " I love you, Mom " .

May be simple to her or someone else, monumental to us.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Jan--

It's pretty cool when it happens, isn't it?

Re:

,

The same thing happened to me a few weeks ago. The phone rang at work and

it was my daughter (which usually gives me a sinking sensation in the pit of

my stomach) and I was thinking " what crisis is it now? " She just called to

see how I was feeling because I had been sick over the week end with a cold!

She just called to talk! She ended the call by saying, " I love you, Mom "

That simple thing meant the world to me! That's why we put up with all the

crap and drama, because of these small break throughs! The things that make

us never give up hope!

Jan

Re:

>

>

>

> My situation with my daughter is no different than yours, mine is 18,

> and

> I feel as you do, that I have lost the little girl I once knew, and have

> lost the relationship that we did have. What we hang onto is the HOPE

that

> we

> will get them back, someday, somewhere.

> There are those days when all is well, she is the person I once knew, so

we

>

> see this glimmer of hope. But its just the game, and you get caught in

the

>

> moment. That's all.

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

You haven't lost your daughter. She was angry and that was the only way to

make sure you felt her pain, but deep down you know that you can never lose

your child because she has the same unconditional love for you that you have

for her! She's just acting out trying to hurt you and when she has time to

stop and think about it, I'm sure she'll figure it out. She'll come back

around.....maybe she'll even learn how much you can take by putting her out

and by letting her know you love her no matter what she does, that you love

her, but not her behavior.

I think that it takes being out and responsible for their own actions that

begins to turn them around. At least that helped in my situation and that

if she wanted to be treated with respect she had to treat me with respect in

return and in turn that behavior got her the attention she so craved and

instead of reacting to the drama and giving positive reinforcement for that,

she got the cold shoulder and a turning back. It's a tightrope that's for

sure and I wish you one of those " I love you, Mom " conversations that you

both so deserve real soon!

Jan

Re:

>

> Jan,

> That was wonderful, you made me cry. Mine was put out on Monday, saying

> she would never speak to me again, that I have just lost my daughter.

She has

> no clue. I haven't heard from her since. I did find out she made it to

> school on Tuesday, but not since.

> So it goes. I feel your pain and your joy at the simple " I love you,

Mom " .

> May be simple to her or someone else, monumental to us.

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I guess Carolyn may have hit the nail on the head, pure and simple she is

JUST irrational. Which means nothing she does will make any sense, right?

Actually that does make sense. Of course she's not worried about money, she

probably hasn't even thought about it.

I just don't understand though, how letting her fall on her face when all the

sh__ hits the fan is going to make her suddenly become rational. Or have I

missed the boat here again. Will taking a shrink prescribed drug make her

thinking more rational?

I have to meet with the prosecutor on Monday. Don't know why I am or have

been wasting my time on this. His serving anymore time is slim to none. The

laws in this state are ludicrous. There's a No Contact Order in affect issued

by a judge, not a restraining order issued at my daughter's request, but the

lawyer is telling me that because the victim(my daugfhter doesn't want the NO

Contact Order then the judge may not be too impressed by the fact that dirtbag

and my daughter violated it. I don't know why I am wasting my whole day in

court over this. And, if he gets off on this, he'll be cockier than ever.

Jean

[Guest guest]

What I am getting at about irrationality is that they do not do what

makes sense to the average person, who is capable of thinking about

consequences of their actions. And when we step in and advise them,

or " manage " them, as we so often do, it drives the bp crazy. I

firmly believe a lot of it is about control. They absolutely do not

want to be controlled.

However, if we detach and allow them to fall flat on their faces,

life itself will deal them consequences which they cannot ignore. No

one is really in control of life; that is an illusion. Consequences

in life are not about fair or unfair, they just are. So I think

there is a learning curve which even a bp can get. They may try to

cheat the system, but eventually will get caught. Rescuing them from

these consequences only feeds into their bad behavior, and so we

must as loving parents allow them to fail. Failure won't be the end

of world; but it might be a beginning into some insight for them.

Carolyn

> I guess Carolyn may have hit the nail on the head, pure and simple

she is

> JUST irrational. Which means nothing she does will make any sense,

right?

> Actually that does make sense. Of course she's not worried about

money, she

> probably hasn't even thought about it.

>

> I just don't understand though, how letting her fall on her face

when all the

> sh__ hits the fan is going to make her suddenly become rational.

Or have I

> missed the boat here again. Will taking a shrink prescribed drug

make her

> thinking more rational?

>

> I have to meet with the prosecutor on Monday. Don't know why I am

or have

> been wasting my time on this. His serving anymore time is slim to

none. The

> laws in this state are ludicrous. There's a No Contact Order in

affect issued

> by a judge, not a restraining order issued at my daughter's

request, but the

> lawyer is telling me that because the victim(my daugfhter doesn't

want the NO

> Contact Order then the judge may not be too impressed by the fact

that dirtbag

> and my daughter violated it. I don't know why I am wasting my

whole day in

> court over this. And, if he gets off on this, he'll be cockier

than ever.

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My boss called me today, wanted to know if is going to be coming back

to work any time soon. Told him I don't know, that she hasn't called me

lately. He said if she doesn't return his phone calls and let him know when

she'll

be back, he'll have to let her go because she's not producing any income for

the company and he has been paying her regional expenses and he cannot carry

her forever. So, in a nutshell, she'll be getting fired or let go.

I feel sick to my stomach about it.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Did your Mom always have a relationship with your children? Did you ever try

to keep them from her after she stopped helping you? Also, how is your son?

Is he still with your ex and do you get to see him often?

Jean

[Guest guest]

You were diagnosed with BPD at 17? Exactly what did that diagnosis mean to

you? Did you realize that this was why all your behaviors were self defeating

and if so, why didn't you change things for yourself sooner?

Believe me I am not judging you or anyone, but I am trying to figure out how

the disease works so that even when one knows they have it, still things don't

change for a long time.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi

I know you are right. She NEEDS to fall on her face and the sooner the

better I think for the sake of my grandsons.

I called the daycare today where the little goes and the director said he's

been seeming a little sad, but she said my older grandson came in to get

yeaterday (I guess my daughter couldn't drag herself out of the car).

and

as he ran toward the door to leave, he stopped, gave her a big smile and said,

" Miss you have a great vacation " .

When I heard that I could just see his smiling little face (he's 6 1/2) and I

have been missing him all the more today. I'm also concerned about why

(he's 5) seems sad. I NEED to see these kids!!

All for giving these girls a one way ticket to Mars, raise your hands!!!!!

Jean

[Guest guest]

Thanks . You are very sweet AND very honest. I hear quite a bit from

many in this group that they turned it over to God. Maybe that is the answer.

You have a lot to offer this group. Your memories of the disorder are very

fresh in your mind.

I guess a lot of this has to do with lack of self esteem and self esteem

cannot develop without personal successes and personal successes cannot develop

if someone is always rescuing you. Perhaps, my over protevtiveness with my

daughter contributed to this. I am not blaming myself, because I too am a

product of my upbringing, but if doesn't have me to depend on, maybe she

will learn to depend on herself and develop some self esteem thru this.

Jean

[Guest guest]

What do you think the self hate comes from. I know they say that little kids

feel that if something bad happens to someone they love, they feel

responsible. My mother died when just turned 13 and she was very close

to her.

I was in such a state of depression that I honestly don't even remember what

her reaction was. And you said your little sister died when you were about

the same age as was. My ex husband's father committed suicide after

having an inoperable brain tumor for a yr and my ex was 10 at the time, and he

definitely has some relationship/ self destructive problems to this day. I

wonder if self blame brought on the self hatred.

And Carolyn's daughter started this after her brother had been very ill. Any

other illnesses or deaths in the other girls' lives?

Jean

[Guest guest]

You do know that rationally you should not blame yourself for your little

sister's death. There was no way for you to know that even if you had or were

getting the flu, that this could make your little sister sick. You were only

13.

I'm sure you didn't have much knowledge about contagion at that age. But

then I guess we humans can find a way to blame ourselves for anything if we

think hard enough.

I guess I see where God comes into play here. If we feel guilty about things

and we ask His firgiveness, then we should no longer feel guilty whether we

should have felt guilty or not. I often ask myself why my daughter doesn't

feel guilty about the pain she causes me, she has control over that until she

chooses to stop living like this. She had no control over my mother's death.

Ah!!! It's getting too late for all this intellectualizing.

You take care, . You are a very special young woman.

Love

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

This post is before my boss called her and she then left him a message.

Jean

[Guest guest]

well make sure they know how the children were treated....

Re:

I guess Carolyn may have hit the nail on the head, pure and simple she is

JUST irrational. Which means nothing she does will make any sense, right?

Actually that does make sense. Of course she's not worried about money, she

probably hasn't even thought about it.

I just don't understand though, how letting her fall on her face when all the

sh__ hits the fan is going to make her suddenly become rational. Or have I

missed the boat here again. Will taking a shrink prescribed drug make her

thinking more rational?

I have to meet with the prosecutor on Monday. Don't know why I am or have

been wasting my time on this. His serving anymore time is slim to none. The

laws in this state are ludicrous. There's a No Contact Order in affect issued

by a judge, not a restraining order issued at my daughter's request, but the

lawyer is telling me that because the victim(my daugfhter doesn't want the NO

Contact Order then the judge may not be too impressed by the fact that dirtbag

and my daughter violated it. I don't know why I am wasting my whole day in

court over this. And, if he gets off on this, he'll be cockier than ever.

Jean

[Guest guest]

However, if we detach and allow them to fall flat on their faces,

life itself will deal them consequences which they cannot ignore

The above is true however they will still go around finding someone else to

blame for whatever is happening to them, unless they seek help seriously!

Kelley

[Guest guest]

I thought she had told the " boss " she had been putting out flyers and was ready

to work again?

Hugs

Kelley

Re:

My boss called me today, wanted to know if is going to be coming back

to work any time soon. Told him I don't know, that she hasn't called me

lately. He said if she doesn't return his phone calls and let him know when

she'll

be back, he'll have to let her go because she's not producing any income for

the company and he has been paying her regional expenses and he cannot carry

her forever. So, in a nutshell, she'll be getting fired or let go.

I feel sick to my stomach about it.

Jean

[Guest guest]

One other thing, you said you had periods of normalcy. When you had those

periods, did you say to yourself, " this is the way I should be " ? were you able

to see yourself slipping back into craziness when that happened?

Jean

[Guest guest]

mentioned in one of her posts that when she was bpd, she didn't think

about what her parents thought of her behaviors, is that also how you felt?

That what your mother thought didn't matter to you, that you were so much into

your own head that you just did things without any thought as to how they might

affect others?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Well. she seems to have all the ingredients on this one. Loser guy, no job,

will lose the house,maybe the car. I've never been sure about the drug use.

It would seem like she must be, but I've never seen anything around and she is

highly allergic to smoke as in asthmatic.

Jean

[Guest guest]

So you did do things just to be spiteful. That's why I beleive she has taken

the kids away from me----purely out of spite.

, how did you lose the kids? What would my daughter have to do to lose

them?

Jean

[Guest guest]

If you had kept your kids would you have been able to straighten out your

life sooner? Or would you have continued on the way you had been, and wouldn't

that have dragged the kids down with you?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Your blunt honesty is what is so helpful in helping me to get a better handle

on this illness. When you said you were angry with your Mom because you

thought she should have accepted you as you were and gone along with anything

you

wanted, that is EXACTLY what I have felt was my daughter's problem. I always

gave her anything she wanted and then when I didn't agree with her crazy

choices, I guess she felt I didn't love her. After all, if I loved her wouldn't

I

allow her to have ANYTHING she wanted whether it was good or not.

Quite honestly, that is how she has always raised my grandsons. She said if

she told them " NO " about anything, then they wouldn't love her, justt like I

guess she doesn't love me when I tell her I won't go along with her destructive

choices.

When I turned in the dirtbag, it was like I took away her toy> Bad me !!!!!

Jean

[Guest guest]

How was your mother able to trust you of late. How did she know you had

really changed

and it wasn't you acting like uou had changed just so you could manipulate

her to get what you wanted? How was she able to trust you again?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Exactly how did you get rid of your feelings of emptiness? Was it the

therapy (and if so what type of therapy) or did they put you on drugs? I'm

assuming

your self esteem has improved to since you can be proud of yourself and the

positive strides you've made.

Jean