Re: am i talking about you ?

[Guest guest]

no offense doreen, but you choose to spend your time reading this other

group, not us. if your you dont like it leave. but lurking and fliping

everyone off as you go out door becasue this isnt your cup of

tea...whatever.

doreen40-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8243

> Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years

ago at age

> 35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from

this is:

> LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway,

so do

> your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have

fun!!!!!!

> You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points

of life

> and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the

sunset and

> remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now,

have a

> great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last

days (which

> may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

no offense doreen, but you choose to spend your time reading this other

group, not us. if your you dont like it leave. but lurking and fliping

everyone off as you go out door becasue this isnt your cup of

tea...whatever.

doreen40-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8243

> Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years

ago at age

> 35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from

this is:

> LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway,

so do

> your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have

fun!!!!!!

> You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points

of life

> and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the

sunset and

> remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now,

have a

> great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last

days (which

> may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/25/99 3:32:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

awatt04@... writes:

<< Perhaps Doreen is yet

another troll? >>

Okay, you've piqued my curiousity....what is a troll? If I am one, I at

least want to know what it is? Doreen

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/25/99 3:32:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

awatt04@... writes:

<< Perhaps Doreen is yet

another troll? >>

Okay, you've piqued my curiousity....what is a troll? If I am one, I at

least want to know what it is? Doreen

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/25/99 3:32:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

awatt04@... writes:

<< Perhaps Doreen is yet

another troll? >>

Okay, you've piqued my curiousity....what is a troll? If I am one, I at

least want to know what it is? Doreen

[Guest guest]

OK --Are you even reading the posts that you are responding to? I'd

like to suggest you go back and VERY CAREFULLY reread this one. It was

articulate and it's message clear. AA/NA hurt this nice lady. End of

story. How dare you spit venom at this courageous person. She appears to

be dealing with her issues. Can you say that?

Re: am i talking about you ?

>ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE HURT FROM AN AA MEETING WHICH YOU DONT HAVE TO

GO TO EVEN

>IF REQUIRED BY THE COURTS, IS THE SAME AS THE HURT FROM BEING RAPED? VERBAL

ATTACKS?

>HOW DO YOU GET THE BALLS TO SAY YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO CRITISZE BUT WHEN I DO

IT , ITS AN

>ATTACK. YOUR GROUP DOES NOT DESERVE THE RIGHT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH

RR,MM,SOS,SMART

>,HABIT SMART OR EVEN THE EVIL, DEADLY, UNHEALTHY 12 STEPS. YOU DESERVE

THIS PAGE AND

>YOU ALL DESERVE EACH OTHER, YOU CAN ALL RATIONALIZE TO EACH OTHER WHY THE

PAST HAS SO

>MUCH CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE I FEEL VERY SAD FOR ANY WOMEN WHO HAS BEEN

RAPED AND FIND

>YOUR ANALOGY TO THE 12 STEPS AS VERY SICK.

>Rebekah wrote:

>

>> >Rita,

>> >Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this list. It

>> >gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds of

>> >verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

>> >Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to articulate

my

>> >feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to me.

I

>> >don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

>> >critical thinking and analysis.

>> >

>> >I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in

relation

>> >to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

children.....

>> >

>> >I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces me to

>> >challenge wrong-thinking ideas

>> >and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

>> >anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

>> >happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who

decided

>> >to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

>> >

>> > Rebekah

>> >

>> > Hey Perkins --

>> >

>> > Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And

what

>> >is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people

describe

>> >their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one

another

>> >on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you

>> >see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common that we

>> >are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>> >

>> >>

>> >> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>> >>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let

me

>> >>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> > The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences.

>> >Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the

>> >damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it

around "

>> >is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you

>> >weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be

>> >interested in this list.

>> >

>> > Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as

soon

>> >as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I,

for

>> >one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was

>> >threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I

believed

>> >myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with

prison

>> >or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're

" working

>> >on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically

>> >damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power

greater

>> >than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!!

>> >

>> >~Rita

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>> >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> > - Simplifying group communications

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

no one was required by a court to ever go to a heavens gate or

scientology meeting, to spend time in south america with jim jones

either. but they managed to hurt people who went to them in good faith

on the " promises " they claimed to offer.

verbal abuse is one of many tools used by cults to bend the wills and

minds of those who are close to becomeing selfaware/well enough to

leave them. in a cult that when you are told you are sickest ( " sober

but toxic " in rooms of a.a., dry drunk etc) you seemed to eqaute rape

with only a physcial atatck. rape is viloence. the harm it does

psyche is far more damaging than what is done to the mind. what a.a.

did to me (and i am a male) was the psychological equivelent of home

invasion. you people use lies and double speak every day to those you

claim to be helping, and when the newcomer balks at your obvious bogus

claims (spirtual not religeous for example) they told thier

unwillingness to accept your " truths " is a sign of thier disease. that

is abuse, and upon peopel who are at the most vulnerable points in

thier lives. they can conform to a.a. or go out and drink and die. (of

course they could use thier own minds and choose not to drink, but no

one in a.a will tell them that. after all if they use thier own will

over a hp's they will drink. gee that doesnt sound like a cult)

A.A. has more in common with harmful mind control cults than not. BTW

all caps is jsut plain rude and ignorant. i dont even bother to

completely read what people write if they use ALL caps. it jsut too

hard to read.its like yelling at those you wish to communicate with.

assuming you have anything to say of substance.

>ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE HURT FROM AN AA MEETING WHICH YOU DONT

HAVE TO

GO TO EVEN

>IF REQUIRED BY THE COURTS, IS THE SAME AS THE HURT FROM BEING RAPED?

VERBAL

ATTACKS?

[Guest guest]

(just had some errors i wanted to clean up in my orginal post)

no one was required by a court to ever go to a heavens gate or

scientology meeting, to spend time in south america with jim jones

either. but they managed to hurt people who went to them in good faith

on the " promises " they claimed to offer.

verbal abuse is one of many tools used by cults to bend the wills and

minds of those who are close to becomeing selfaware/well enough to

leave them. in a cult that when you are told you are sickest ( " sober

but toxic " in rooms of a.a., dry drunk etc) you seemed to eqaute rape

with only a physcial atatck. rape is viloence. the harm it does

psyche is far more damaging than what is done to the body.

what a.a. did to me was the psychological equivelent of home

invasion. A.A. use's lies and double speak every day to those it

claim to be helping, and when the newcomer balks at thier obvious bogus

claims (spirtual not religeous for example) they told thier

unwillingness to accept A.A's " truths " is a sign of thier disease. that

is abuse, and upon peopel who are at the most vulnerable points in

thier lives. they can conform to a.a. or go out and drink and die. (of

course they could use thier own minds and choose not to drink, but no

one in a.a will tell them that. after all if they use thier own will

over a hp's they will drink. gee that doesnt sound like a cult)

A.A. has more in common with harmful mind control cults than not.

BTW

all caps is jsut plain rude and ignorant. i dont even bother to

completely read what people write if they use ALL caps. it jsut too

hard to read.its like yelling at those you wish to communicate with.

assuming you have anything to say of substance.

>ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE HURT FROM AN AA MEETING WHICH YOU DONT

HAVE TO

GO TO EVEN

>IF REQUIRED BY THE COURTS, IS THE SAME AS THE HURT FROM BEING RAPED?

VERBAL

ATTACKS?

[Guest guest]

Hello .

Now I have defended your existence on this list. If you don't give a

reasonably answer to Rita's mail you have a substantial credibility

problem.

And why are all your mails equipped with an answer request? Are you

fishing?

I don't approve you at all, but I'll defend your right to have an

opinion. AA or not.

Bjørn

Lawrence wrote:

>

> OK --Are you even reading the posts that you are responding to? I'd

like to suggest you go back and VERY CAREFULLY reread this one. It was

articulate and it's message clear. AA/NA hurt this nice lady. End of

story. How dare you spit venom at this courageous person. She appears to

be dealing with her issues. Can you say that?

Re: am i talking about you ?

>ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE HURT FROM AN AA MEETING WHICH YOU DONT HAVE TO

GO TO EVEN

>IF REQUIRED BY THE COURTS, IS THE SAME AS THE HURT FROM BEING RAPED? VERBAL

ATTACKS?

>HOW DO YOU GET THE BALLS TO SAY YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO CRITISZE BUT WHEN I DO

IT , ITS AN

>ATTACK. YOUR GROUP DOES NOT DESERVE THE RIGHT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH

RR,MM,SOS,SMART

>,HABIT SMART OR EVEN THE EVIL, DEADLY, UNHEALTHY 12 STEPS. YOU DESERVE

THIS PAGE AND

>YOU ALL DESERVE EACH OTHER, YOU CAN ALL RATIONALIZE TO EACH OTHER WHY THE

PAST HAS SO

>MUCH CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE I FEEL VERY SAD FOR ANY WOMEN WHO HAS BEEN

RAPED AND FIND

>YOUR ANALOGY TO THE 12 STEPS AS VERY SICK.

>Rebekah wrote:

>

>> >Rita,

>> >Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this list. It

>> >gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds of

>> >verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

>> >Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to articulate

my

>> >feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to me.

I

>> >don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

>> >critical thinking and analysis.

>> >

>> >I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in

relation

>> >to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

children.....

>> >

>> >I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces me to

>> >challenge wrong-thinking ideas

>> >and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

>> >anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

>> >happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who

decided

>> >to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

>> >

>> > Rebekah

>> >

>> > Hey Perkins --

>> >

>> > Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And

what

>> >is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people

describe

>> >their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one

another

>> >on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you

>> >see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common that we

>> >are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>> >

>> >>

>> >> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>> >>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let

me

>> >>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> > The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences.

>> >Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the

>> >damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it

around "

>> >is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you

>> >weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be

>> >interested in this list.

>> >

>> > Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as

soon

>> >as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I,

for

>> >one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was

>> >threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I

believed

>> >myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with

prison

>> >or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're

" working

>> >on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically

>> >damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power

greater

>> >than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!!

>> >

>> >~Rita

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>> >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> > - Simplifying group communications

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [Click Here!]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Again, what you fail to grasp, is we dont write this stuff ON AA LIST,

or even a PUBLIC one, but our own , PRIVATE one. Most ppl dont like

being criticised in their own homes, and the hosts are quite within

their rights to sling out guests who do.

Something else, indicative of your opinionated mind, is altho your

exchanges have been almost entirely with me and just a bit with Joe,

you talk as if everyone on this list are all the same, whereas Bjorn

has actually criticised my aggression and said he wants you top stay. I

hope you do not indulge him.

You may not have used personal insults, but you did resort to

profanities like " shit " before I did, so I think you were fair game.

We are groupers? Yes, we are a 12-step-free group. First to admit

that. But not 12-step groupers, which is what you in fact still are,

though you may well not realize it.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8219

> ok, ill go but you groupers and you are groupers sure can dish it

out, but

> to critisize you is a no no.ust as i thought, what is good for you is

not

> good for others. i dont think you should stop what your doing, i was

just

> pointint out what i see as an outsider.i never called anyone on this

line a

> prick or anything else derogatory, but i guess thats what type of

people

> arer attracted to your philosophy. so send those posts of hate to me

too.you

> feel it is your divine right to tell people the truth about aa, so do

i

> think your group needs to shown for what it is.

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

> > dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You

condemn

> > them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl

who

> > want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA

infiltrator,

> > why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO

REASON

> > WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you

dont

> > wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I

react to

> > this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

> > dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last

there

> > if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

> > fucking place else, k?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

187

> > > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

> > point is

> > > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and

> > closed

> > > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i

> > read and

> > > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point

out

> > that

> > > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant

live

> > the 12

> > > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out

of

> > it, and

> > > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact

that

> > some

> > > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

> > filled with

> > > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of

though

> > would be

> > > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

> > taught

> > > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of

time

> > me.i

> > > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

> > paranoia. so

> > > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at

you,

> > think

> > > how you acted when your group got critsized.

> > > s for

> > > t

> > > awatt04@... wrote. .

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Again, what you fail to grasp, is we dont write this stuff ON AA LIST,

or even a PUBLIC one, but our own , PRIVATE one. Most ppl dont like

being criticised in their own homes, and the hosts are quite within

their rights to sling out guests who do.

Something else, indicative of your opinionated mind, is altho your

exchanges have been almost entirely with me and just a bit with Joe,

you talk as if everyone on this list are all the same, whereas Bjorn

has actually criticised my aggression and said he wants you top stay. I

hope you do not indulge him.

You may not have used personal insults, but you did resort to

profanities like " shit " before I did, so I think you were fair game.

We are groupers? Yes, we are a 12-step-free group. First to admit

that. But not 12-step groupers, which is what you in fact still are,

though you may well not realize it.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8219

> ok, ill go but you groupers and you are groupers sure can dish it

out, but

> to critisize you is a no no.ust as i thought, what is good for you is

not

> good for others. i dont think you should stop what your doing, i was

just

> pointint out what i see as an outsider.i never called anyone on this

line a

> prick or anything else derogatory, but i guess thats what type of

people

> arer attracted to your philosophy. so send those posts of hate to me

too.you

> feel it is your divine right to tell people the truth about aa, so do

i

> think your group needs to shown for what it is.

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

> > dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You

condemn

> > them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl

who

> > want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA

infiltrator,

> > why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO

REASON

> > WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you

dont

> > wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I

react to

> > this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

> > dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last

there

> > if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

> > fucking place else, k?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

187

> > > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

> > point is

> > > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and

> > closed

> > > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i

> > read and

> > > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point

out

> > that

> > > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant

live

> > the 12

> > > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out

of

> > it, and

> > > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact

that

> > some

> > > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

> > filled with

> > > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of

though

> > would be

> > > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

> > taught

> > > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of

time

> > me.i

> > > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

> > paranoia. so

> > > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at

you,

> > think

> > > how you acted when your group got critsized.

> > > s for

> > > t

> > > awatt04@... wrote. .

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Again, what you fail to grasp, is we dont write this stuff ON AA LIST,

or even a PUBLIC one, but our own , PRIVATE one. Most ppl dont like

being criticised in their own homes, and the hosts are quite within

their rights to sling out guests who do.

Something else, indicative of your opinionated mind, is altho your

exchanges have been almost entirely with me and just a bit with Joe,

you talk as if everyone on this list are all the same, whereas Bjorn

has actually criticised my aggression and said he wants you top stay. I

hope you do not indulge him.

You may not have used personal insults, but you did resort to

profanities like " shit " before I did, so I think you were fair game.

We are groupers? Yes, we are a 12-step-free group. First to admit

that. But not 12-step groupers, which is what you in fact still are,

though you may well not realize it.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8219

> ok, ill go but you groupers and you are groupers sure can dish it

out, but

> to critisize you is a no no.ust as i thought, what is good for you is

not

> good for others. i dont think you should stop what your doing, i was

just

> pointint out what i see as an outsider.i never called anyone on this

line a

> prick or anything else derogatory, but i guess thats what type of

people

> arer attracted to your philosophy. so send those posts of hate to me

too.you

> feel it is your divine right to tell people the truth about aa, so do

i

> think your group needs to shown for what it is.

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

> > dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You

condemn

> > them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl

who

> > want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA

infiltrator,

> > why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO

REASON

> > WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you

dont

> > wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I

react to

> > this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

> > dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last

there

> > if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

> > fucking place else, k?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

187

> > > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

> > point is

> > > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and

> > closed

> > > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i

> > read and

> > > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point

out

> > that

> > > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant

live

> > the 12

> > > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out

of

> > it, and

> > > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact

that

> > some

> > > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

> > filled with

> > > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of

though

> > would be

> > > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

> > taught

> > > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of

time

> > me.i

> > > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

> > paranoia. so

> > > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at

you,

> > think

> > > how you acted when your group got critsized.

> > > s for

> > > t

> > > awatt04@... wrote. .

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

I thought you said you were going. Shutup and keep your promise.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8223

> i cant see anything healtyh about bashing anything. what pop

psychology book

> tells you that you need to bash what you disagree with.? im serious,

tell me so

> i can read it for myself. Alice ? shes a radical and she does

not endorse

> the 12 steps, but she doesnt endorse bashing either. Who? just

because you

> think this is healthy doesnt make it true.i made some criticims of

your group

> and never called anyone a name on this line. i disagree with your

idea of

> healing or whatever you call it, i call it blaming aa for all your

problems.

>

>

> " Wally T. " wrote:

>

> > >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> > >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> > >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> > >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because

> > they

> > >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that way and

> > >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> > >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead of

> > >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> > >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> >

> > There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

> >

> > One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and

a lot of

> > people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been

shown by

> > studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control

over

> > alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost

control

> > over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all

boil down

> > to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is

pleasurable,

> > but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who

believe the

> > loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse

consequences,

> > in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they

" just can't

> > help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid

or

> > downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe

that it was

> > not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them

off the

> > hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in

control it

> > becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the

'uncontrolled'

> > behaviour on future drinking occassions.

> >

> > Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and

kept

> > their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your

drinking worse,

> > and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

> >

> > The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our

cultural

> > mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to

a

> > 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not

only!)

> > promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the

treatment

> > providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we

can't

> > really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning

that we

> > are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

> > abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an

essential

> > part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for

former AA

> > members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

> >

> > Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal

recovery. A lot

> > of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic

pressure.

> > Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in

treatment

> > centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of

belief,

> > which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization.

The fact

> > that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

> > Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of

religion.

> >

> > If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social

& legal

> > pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a

lot less

> > need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

> > principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

> >

> > -- wally

> >

[Guest guest]

I thought you said you were going. Shutup and keep your promise.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8223

> i cant see anything healtyh about bashing anything. what pop

psychology book

> tells you that you need to bash what you disagree with.? im serious,

tell me so

> i can read it for myself. Alice ? shes a radical and she does

not endorse

> the 12 steps, but she doesnt endorse bashing either. Who? just

because you

> think this is healthy doesnt make it true.i made some criticims of

your group

> and never called anyone a name on this line. i disagree with your

idea of

> healing or whatever you call it, i call it blaming aa for all your

problems.

>

>

> " Wally T. " wrote:

>

> > >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> > >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> > >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> > >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because

> > they

> > >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that way and

> > >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> > >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead of

> > >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> > >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> >

> > There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

> >

> > One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and

a lot of

> > people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been

shown by

> > studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control

over

> > alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost

control

> > over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all

boil down

> > to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is

pleasurable,

> > but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who

believe the

> > loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse

consequences,

> > in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they

" just can't

> > help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid

or

> > downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe

that it was

> > not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them

off the

> > hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in

control it

> > becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the

'uncontrolled'

> > behaviour on future drinking occassions.

> >

> > Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and

kept

> > their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your

drinking worse,

> > and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

> >

> > The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our

cultural

> > mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to

a

> > 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not

only!)

> > promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the

treatment

> > providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we

can't

> > really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning

that we

> > are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

> > abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an

essential

> > part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for

former AA

> > members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

> >

> > Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal

recovery. A lot

> > of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic

pressure.

> > Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in

treatment

> > centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of

belief,

> > which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization.

The fact

> > that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

> > Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of

religion.

> >

> > If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social

& legal

> > pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a

lot less

> > need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

> > principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

> >

> > -- wally

> >

[Guest guest]

I thought you said you were going. Shutup and keep your promise.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8223

> i cant see anything healtyh about bashing anything. what pop

psychology book

> tells you that you need to bash what you disagree with.? im serious,

tell me so

> i can read it for myself. Alice ? shes a radical and she does

not endorse

> the 12 steps, but she doesnt endorse bashing either. Who? just

because you

> think this is healthy doesnt make it true.i made some criticims of

your group

> and never called anyone a name on this line. i disagree with your

idea of

> healing or whatever you call it, i call it blaming aa for all your

problems.

>

>

> " Wally T. " wrote:

>

> > >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> > >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> > >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> > >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because

> > they

> > >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that way and

> > >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> > >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead of

> > >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> > >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> >

> > There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

> >

> > One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and

a lot of

> > people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been

shown by

> > studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control

over

> > alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost

control

> > over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all

boil down

> > to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is

pleasurable,

> > but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who

believe the

> > loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse

consequences,

> > in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they

" just can't

> > help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid

or

> > downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe

that it was

> > not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them

off the

> > hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in

control it

> > becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the

'uncontrolled'

> > behaviour on future drinking occassions.

> >

> > Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and

kept

> > their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your

drinking worse,

> > and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

> >

> > The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our

cultural

> > mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to

a

> > 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not

only!)

> > promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the

treatment

> > providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we

can't

> > really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning

that we

> > are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

> > abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an

essential

> > part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for

former AA

> > members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

> >

> > Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal

recovery. A lot

> > of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic

pressure.

> > Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in

treatment

> > centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of

belief,

> > which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization.

The fact

> > that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

> > Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of

religion.

> >

> > If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social

& legal

> > pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a

lot less

> > need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

> > principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

> >

> > -- wally

> >

[Guest guest]

Look just fuck off like you said would ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8234

> i never defened aa, i defend my right to look at you critically, the

same

> way yopu ask to be critical of aa. you dont think your ideas could

hurt

> someone?

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of

trolling.

> > Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

> > total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

> > against us.

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

190

> > > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about

other

> > gouprs

> > > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but

when

> > someone

> > > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups

list

> > and

> > > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

> > freedom here

> > > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the

old

> > group " .

> > >

> > > awatt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Look just fuck off like you said would ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8234

> i never defened aa, i defend my right to look at you critically, the

same

> way yopu ask to be critical of aa. you dont think your ideas could

hurt

> someone?

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of

trolling.

> > Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

> > total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

> > against us.

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

190

> > > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about

other

> > gouprs

> > > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but

when

> > someone

> > > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups

list

> > and

> > > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

> > freedom here

> > > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the

old

> > group " .

> > >

> > > awatt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Look just fuck off like you said would ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8234

> i never defened aa, i defend my right to look at you critically, the

same

> way yopu ask to be critical of aa. you dont think your ideas could

hurt

> someone?

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of

trolling.

> > Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

> > total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

> > against us.

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

190

> > > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about

other

> > gouprs

> > > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but

when

> > someone

> > > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups

list

> > and

> > > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

> > freedom here

> > > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the

old

> > group " .

> > >

> > > awatt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ken, someone's left a tap dripping in here....

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8236

> Trolling, what the hell does that mean? is it your grouper lingo? aa

police?

> you talk in aa lingo more than 12 steppers i know.im amazed you

coined a

> phrase from the 12 steps. so anybody who disagrees with you is the aa

> police? are you paranoid or something? do you really think that aaers

are

> out there checking what you say, or even care. i realize that it

makes some

> of you feel better to think im an aaer, youve stated that clearly. it

> probablly helps you to understand why somewone who hates the 12 steps

also

> hates what your doing fine, i can live with that.

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all

groups

> > do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a

group

> > for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect

to be

> > allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

> > police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk

abt,

> > not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

> > rest, ok?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

188

> > > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

> > everyone

> > > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

> > what you

> > > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

> > must be

> > > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

> > because they

> > > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that

> > way and

> > > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

> > line(notice i

> > > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead

> > of

> > > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

> > let me

> > > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

> > healthy.

> > > . watt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ken, someone's left a tap dripping in here....

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8236

> Trolling, what the hell does that mean? is it your grouper lingo? aa

police?

> you talk in aa lingo more than 12 steppers i know.im amazed you

coined a

> phrase from the 12 steps. so anybody who disagrees with you is the aa

> police? are you paranoid or something? do you really think that aaers

are

> out there checking what you say, or even care. i realize that it

makes some

> of you feel better to think im an aaer, youve stated that clearly. it

> probablly helps you to understand why somewone who hates the 12 steps

also

> hates what your doing fine, i can live with that.

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all

groups

> > do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a

group

> > for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect

to be

> > allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

> > police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk

abt,

> > not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

> > rest, ok?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

188

> > > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

> > everyone

> > > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

> > what you

> > > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

> > must be

> > > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

> > because they

> > > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that

> > way and

> > > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

> > line(notice i

> > > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead

> > of

> > > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

> > let me

> > > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

> > healthy.

> > > . watt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ken, someone's left a tap dripping in here....

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8236

> Trolling, what the hell does that mean? is it your grouper lingo? aa

police?

> you talk in aa lingo more than 12 steppers i know.im amazed you

coined a

> phrase from the 12 steps. so anybody who disagrees with you is the aa

> police? are you paranoid or something? do you really think that aaers

are

> out there checking what you say, or even care. i realize that it

makes some

> of you feel better to think im an aaer, youve stated that clearly. it

> probablly helps you to understand why somewone who hates the 12 steps

also

> hates what your doing fine, i can live with that.

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all

groups

> > do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a

group

> > for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect

to be

> > allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

> > police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk

abt,

> > not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

> > rest, ok?

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

188

> > > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

> > everyone

> > > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

> > what you

> > > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

> > must be

> > > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

> > because they

> > > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe

that

> > way and

> > > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

> > line(notice i

> > > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps

instead

> > of

> > > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

> > let me

> > > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

> > healthy.

> > > . watt04@... wrote:

> > >

> > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > > >

> > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list,

that

> > > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction

recovery,

> > it is

> > > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who

remain

> > > > here are

> > > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue

to

> > do

> > > > this as long as we please.

> > > >

> > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> > anyone

> > > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> > joined,

> > > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > > >

> > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators,

seeing

> > as

> > > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite

some

> > > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more

sophisticated

> > > > tactics.

> > > >

> > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you

away,

> >

> > > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > > >

> > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > > >

> > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is

an

> > > > abomination. "

> > > >

> > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> > like,

> > > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > > >

> > > > and you and Ed can

> > > >

> > > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > > >

> > > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?sta

rt=8

> > 157

> > > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you

or

> > what

> > > > your going

> > > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer

besides

> > > > criticism of

> > > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying

drugs

> > > > free without

> > > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This

struck

> > me

> > > > as so funny

> > > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of

the

> > 12

> > > > steps? Dont

> > > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take

my

> > > > focus away from

> > > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we

dont

> > need

> > > > is another

> > > > > group to go to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > > Xgrouper

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> > anything

> > > > to offer

> > > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing

some

> > > > insight about

> > > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > > experience with

> > > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > > guidelines there

> > > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have

instructions for

> > > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL

from my

> > > > initial

> > > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Judith

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply)

are the

> > > > rest of the

> > > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> > condemnation

> > > > over

> > > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out

of

> > there

> > > > mouths'

> > > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of

staying

> > > > free from

> > > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups

instead of

> > > > looking at

> > > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list.

There are

> > > > enough hate

> > > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of

them.

> > Grow

> > > > up and

> > > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________

_____

> > > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excit

e.com

> > > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Doreen

I am sorry to hear about your cancer and even sorrier that you didnt

feel able to say something earlier about how you felt, I would be even

sorrier if you leave, as it means " " has succesfully trolled us and

cost us at least one member, which is what he wants.

doreen40-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8243

> Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years

ago at age

> 35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from

this is:

> LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway,

so do

> your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have

fun!!!!!!

> You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points

of life

> and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the

sunset and

> remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now,

have a

> great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last

days (which

> may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

Hello Doreen

I am sorry to hear about your cancer and even sorrier that you didnt

feel able to say something earlier about how you felt, I would be even

sorrier if you leave, as it means " " has succesfully trolled us and

cost us at least one member, which is what he wants.

doreen40-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8243

> Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years

ago at age

> 35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from

this is:

> LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway,

so do

> your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have

fun!!!!!!

> You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points

of life

> and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the

sunset and

> remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now,

have a

> great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last

days (which

> may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

Hello Doreen

I am sorry to hear about your cancer and even sorrier that you didnt

feel able to say something earlier about how you felt, I would be even

sorrier if you leave, as it means " " has succesfully trolled us and

cost us at least one member, which is what he wants.

doreen40-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8243

> Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years

ago at age

> 35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from

this is:

> LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway,

so do

> your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have

fun!!!!!!

> You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points

of life

> and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the

sunset and

> remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now,

have a

> great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last

days (which

> may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

As ever Joe,

You speak great wisdom with equally great wit. Perhaps Doreen is yet

another troll? Seriously, I really hope is a knowing troll, since

the thought that someone could be such a good troll *accidentally* is a

terrifying thought!

Pete

joe berenbaum wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8245

> At 10:16 PM 24/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

> >Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the

the 6-8

> >weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice

my

> >opinion and leave....

>

> <tearful farewell of total stranger snipped>

>

> It's amazing how some people will read a list that they obviously do

not

> like at all for weeks at a time, and then complain about the contents!

>

> Here's an idea. When you go to the supermarket, make sure yuou buy

some

> food you really don't like. Enough to last until your next big shop.

Eat it

> every day, several big helpings. You hate it but you gotta eat it.

Repeat

> this so that you eat the food you hate for several weeks. Then go

back to

> the supermarket and complain to the manager that you didn't like the

food

> you've been buying. Tell him or her exactly what you think is wrong

with

> it. Note his or her reaction.

>

> Joe Berenbaum