Re: am i talking about you ?

[Guest guest]

---

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what is

the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe their

individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another on various

things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you see us as clones

of one another merely because we have in common that we are put off by 12-step

ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences. Some of

us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the damage. Telling us

to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around " is as cruel as telling a

rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by your experience

then I do wonder why you would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon as

you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for one, was

among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was threatened with

being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed myself " powerless "

and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison or loss of custody of

their children if they don't " prove " they're " working on recovery " by babbling

Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically damaging religion is forced on

people by others with literal " power greater than themselves " is reason enough

to BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what is

the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe their

individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another on various

things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you see us as clones

of one another merely because we have in common that we are put off by 12-step

ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences. Some of

us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the damage. Telling us

to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around " is as cruel as telling a

rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by your experience

then I do wonder why you would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon as

you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for one, was

among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was threatened with

being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed myself " powerless "

and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison or loss of custody of

their children if they don't " prove " they're " working on recovery " by babbling

Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically damaging religion is forced on

people by others with literal " power greater than themselves " is reason enough

to BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

wrote:

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you

were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

to which you refer? And what is the

" thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

list where people describe their individual

opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

one another on various things, and have

related quite differing experiences. If you

see us as clones of one another merely

because we have in common that we are put off

by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong

about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our

AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

undergoing professional therapy to help heal

from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

about it and stop dragging it around " is as

cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

your experience then I do wonder why you

would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were

able to stop attending AA as soon as you

decided it wasn't for you, then you are

luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

people are threatened with prison or loss of

custody of their children if they don't

" prove " they're " working on recovery " by

babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically damaging religion is forced

on people by others with literal " power

greater than themselves " is reason enough to

BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

wrote:

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you

were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

to which you refer? And what is the

" thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

list where people describe their individual

opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

one another on various things, and have

related quite differing experiences. If you

see us as clones of one another merely

because we have in common that we are put off

by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong

about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our

AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

undergoing professional therapy to help heal

from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

about it and stop dragging it around " is as

cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

your experience then I do wonder why you

would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were

able to stop attending AA as soon as you

decided it wasn't for you, then you are

luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

people are threatened with prison or loss of

custody of their children if they don't

" prove " they're " working on recovery " by

babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically damaging religion is forced

on people by others with literal " power

greater than themselves " is reason enough to

BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

wrote:

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you

were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

to which you refer? And what is the

" thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

list where people describe their individual

opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

one another on various things, and have

related quite differing experiences. If you

see us as clones of one another merely

because we have in common that we are put off

by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong

about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our

AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

undergoing professional therapy to help heal

from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

about it and stop dragging it around " is as

cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

your experience then I do wonder why you

would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were

able to stop attending AA as soon as you

decided it wasn't for you, then you are

luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

people are threatened with prison or loss of

custody of their children if they don't

" prove " they're " working on recovery " by

babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically damaging religion is forced

on people by others with literal " power

greater than themselves " is reason enough to

BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

>Rita,

>Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this list. It

>gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds of

>verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

>Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to articulate my

>feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to me. I

>don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

>critical thinking and analysis.

>

>I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in relation

>to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

children.....

>

>I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces me to

>challenge wrong-thinking ideas

>and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

>anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

>happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who decided

>to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

>

> Rebekah

>

> Hey Perkins --

>

> Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what

>is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe

>their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another

>on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you

>see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common that we

>are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>

>>

>> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>>

>

>

> The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences.

>Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the

>damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around "

>is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you

>weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be

>interested in this list.

>

> Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon

>as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for

>one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was

>threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

>myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison

>or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're " working

>on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically

>damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power greater

>than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!!

>

>~Rita

>

>

>

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" rebekah " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8207

>

>

> >Rita,

> >Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this

list. It

> >gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds

of

> >verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

> >Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to

articulate my

> >feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to

me. I

> >don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

> >critical thinking and analysis.

HOW TRUE! I don't think of it as bashing, either. I have learned how

to ask questions and see different slants to situations, whereas, in

AA, everything was so...pointed...narrow? Oh yes, close-minded! I was

trying to make myself fit.

> >

> >I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in

relation

> >to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

children.....

Rebekah, I am so sorry about your loss. My fiance's son was very dear

to me and I know how badly he aches after 6 months and I feel right

there for him. But since leaving AA, my emotions are more intense and

more important to me and I feel like I understand other's emotions

better as a result.

> >

> >I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces

me to

> >challenge wrong-thinking ideas

> >and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

> >anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

> >happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who

decided

> >to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

> >

I love the challenge. It feels like I have power in my life for the

first time.

I have a therapist who still goes to AA, but believes IT IS BAD FOR

women, and especially abused women, because it shames them. Since

leaving, I feel less of a victim, too, and I am glad there are people

like me and you that are waking up to the realization that " something

is rotten in the State of Denmark " .

> > Rebekah

> >

PERKINS-NONE OF US FIT IN THE AA 'MOLD'-TAKE THAT HOWEVER YOU WANT

ARE YOU SO AFRAID YOU WOULD GET DRUNK IF YOU LEFT THAT YOU WOULD STAY

AND " ACCEPT " EVEN THINGS THAT YOU DISAGREED WITH DEEP DOWN? That's

where I started to question AA.

BUT IT'S YOUR LIFE.

> > Hey Perkins --

> >

> > Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer?

And what

> >is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people

describe

> >their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one

another

> >on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If

you

> >see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common

that we

> >are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited

outlook.

> >

> >>

> >> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

> >>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> >>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> >>

> >

> >

> > The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A

experiences.

> >Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the

> >damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it

around "

> >is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If

you

> >weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be

> >interested in this list.

> >

> > Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA

as soon

> >as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many.

I, for

> >one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I

was

> >threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I

believed

> >myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with

prison

> >or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're

" working

> >on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically

> >damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power

greater

> >than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!!

> >

> >~Rita

> >

> >

> >

> >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Rita.

I know we've had our disagreements on this list, but we wont have on

this one.

Couldn't be expressed better.

Bjørn

Railroad Rita wrote:

>

>

---

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

wrote:

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you

were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

to which you refer? And what is the

" thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

list where people describe their individual

opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

one another on various things, and have

related quite differing experiences. If you

see us as clones of one another merely

because we have in common that we are put off

by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong

about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our

AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

undergoing professional therapy to help heal

from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

about it and stop dragging it around " is as

cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

your experience then I do wonder why you

would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were

able to stop attending AA as soon as you

decided it wasn't for you, then you are

luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

people are threatened with prison or loss of

custody of their children if they don't

" prove " they're " working on recovery " by

babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically damaging religion is forced

on people by others with literal " power

greater than themselves " is reason enough to

BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [click here]

> Click Here!

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hello Rita.

I know we've had our disagreements on this list, but we wont have on

this one.

Couldn't be expressed better.

Bjørn

Railroad Rita wrote:

>

>

---

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

wrote:

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you

were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

to which you refer? And what is the

" thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

list where people describe their individual

opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

one another on various things, and have

related quite differing experiences. If you

see us as clones of one another merely

because we have in common that we are put off

by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong

about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our

AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

undergoing professional therapy to help heal

from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

about it and stop dragging it around " is as

cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

your experience then I do wonder why you

would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were

able to stop attending AA as soon as you

decided it wasn't for you, then you are

luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

people are threatened with prison or loss of

custody of their children if they don't

" prove " they're " working on recovery " by

babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

psychologically damaging religion is forced

on people by others with literal " power

greater than themselves " is reason enough to

BASH AA!!

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [click here]

> Click Here!

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

I don't think this list is above criticism, just like anything. But I don't

understand how anyone could call these postings " negative. " I think this

list helps a lot of people express there doubts about 12 step programs. It

promotes creativity and individuality. And I honestly don't see what it

hurts. I never have once, in this list seen anyone say, " AA members should

stop going and start drinking again. " I think our point is that AA members

should open up their minds and quit seeing the world through only one point

of view. The need for this list wouldn't exist if 12 step groups

weren't so hard on people who question there program.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: am i talking about you ?

>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:57:20 +0200

>

>Hello Rita.

>

>I know we've had our disagreements on this list, but we wont have on

>this one.

>Couldn't be expressed better.

>

>Bjørn

>

>

>Railroad Rita wrote:

>

> >

> >

> ---

>

> On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

> wrote:

>

> >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

> and when you went)and everyone

> >jumped all over you because they thought you

> were the devil? thats what you

> >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

> agree with our philosophy, must be

> >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

> would associate with because they

> >dont think like us.

>

> Hey Perkins --

>

> Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

> to which you refer? And what is the

> " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

> list where people describe their individual

> opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

> one another on various things, and have

> related quite differing experiences. If you

> see us as clones of one another merely

> because we have in common that we are put off

> by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

> limited outlook.

>

> >

> > lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

> >dragging them around with us. if im wrong

> about any of this please let me

> >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

> matter why ?bashing is healthy.

> >

>

> The point is, we have been HURT by our

> AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

> undergoing professional therapy to help heal

> from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

> about it and stop dragging it around " is as

> cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

> forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

> your experience then I do wonder why you

> would be interested in this list.

>

> Remember something else: if you were

> able to stop attending AA as soon as you

> decided it wasn't for you, then you are

> luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

> many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

> LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

> I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

> myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

> people are threatened with prison or loss of

> custody of their children if they don't

> " prove " they're " working on recovery " by

> babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

> psychologically damaging religion is forced

> on people by others with literal " power

> greater than themselves " is reason enough to

> BASH AA!!

>

> ~Rita

>

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > [click here]

> > Click Here!

> > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > www. - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years ago at age

35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from this is:

LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway, so do

your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have fun!!!!!!

You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points of life

and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the sunset and

remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now, have a

great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last days (which

may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years ago at age

35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from this is:

LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway, so do

your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have fun!!!!!!

You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points of life

and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the sunset and

remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now, have a

great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last days (which

may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

opinion and leave....I was diagnosed with incurable cancer 3 years ago at age

35 and given 5 years to live and the best thing I have learned from this is:

LIGHTEN UP!!!!!! Nobody is going to get out of this alive anyway, so do

your selves a favor, quit arguing, get out there in life and have fun!!!!!!

You all can spend the rest of your lives arguing the " finer " points of life

and recovery, but as for me, I'm gonna go out there and enjoy the sunset and

remember that not everyone has to believe the same as me! Bye now, have a

great life, I sure plan to.....how do you plan to spend your last days (which

may be alot shorter than you think!)

[Guest guest]

ok, ill go but you groupers and you are groupers sure can dish it out, but

to critisize you is a no no.ust as i thought, what is good for you is not

good for others. i dont think you should stop what your doing, i was just

pointint out what i see as an outsider.i never called anyone on this line a

prick or anything else derogatory, but i guess thats what type of people

arer attracted to your philosophy. so send those posts of hate to me too.you

feel it is your divine right to tell people the truth about aa, so do i

think your group needs to shown for what it is.

awatt04@... wrote:

> and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

> dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn

> them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who

> want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator,

> why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON

> WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont

> wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to

> this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

> dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there

> if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

> fucking place else, k?

>

> gary perkins wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187

> > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

> point is

> > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and

> closed

> > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i

> read and

> > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out

> that

> > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live

> the 12

> > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of

> it, and

> > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that

> some

> > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

> filled with

> > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though

> would be

> > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

> taught

> > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time

> me.i

> > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

> paranoia. so

> > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you,

> think

> > how you acted when your group got critsized.

> > s for

> > t

> > awatt04@... wrote. .

> >

> > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> > >

> > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

> it is

> > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > > here are

> > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

> do

> > > this as long as we please.

> > >

> > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

> anyone

> > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

> joined,

> > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> > >

> > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

> as

> > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > > tactics.

> > >

> > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

>

> > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> > >

> > > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> > >

> > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > > abomination. "

> > >

> > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

> like,

> > > where I like, as often as I like,

> > >

> > > and you and Ed can

> > >

> > > PEACE OFF!!!

> > >

> > > gary perkins wrote:

> > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

> 157

> > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

> what

> > > your going

> > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > > criticism of

> > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > > free without

> > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

> me

> > > as so funny

> > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

> 12

> > > steps? Dont

> > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > > focus away from

> > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

> need

> > > is another

> > > > group to go to.

> > > >

> > > > Xgrouper

> > > >

> > > > Xgrouper

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

> anything

> > > to offer

> > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > > insight about

> > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > > >

> > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > > experience with

> > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > > guidelines there

> > > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > > initial

> > > > > email after subscribing:

> > > > >

> > > > > /info/help.html

> > > > >

> > > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Judith

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > > rest of the

> > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

> condemnation

> > > over

> > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

> there

> > > mouths'

> > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > > free from

> > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > > looking at

> > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > > enough hate

> > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

> Grow

> > > up and

> > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > > peace Ed

> > > > >

> > > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > > >

> > >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! Save on vitamins

> & supplements. Use coupon code: VALUE at checkout.

> Expires 9/30/99. http://clickhere./click/996

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

i cant see anything healtyh about bashing anything. what pop psychology book

tells you that you need to bash what you disagree with.? im serious, tell me so

i can read it for myself. Alice ? shes a radical and she does not endorse

the 12 steps, but she doesnt endorse bashing either. Who? just because you

think this is healthy doesnt make it true.i made some criticims of your group

and never called anyone a name on this line. i disagree with your idea of

healing or whatever you call it, i call it blaming aa for all your problems.

" Wally T. " wrote:

> >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

> >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

> >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

> >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because

> they

> >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and

> >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i

> >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

> >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

> >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

> There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

>

> One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of

> people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by

> studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over

> alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control

> over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down

> to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable,

> but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the

> loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences,

> in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't

> help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or

> downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was

> not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the

> hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it

> becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled'

> behaviour on future drinking occassions.

>

> Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept

> their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse,

> and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

>

> The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural

> mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a

> 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!)

> promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment

> providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't

> really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we

> are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

> abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential

> part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA

> members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

>

> Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot

> of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure.

> Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment

> centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief,

> which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact

> that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

> Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion.

>

> If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal

> pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less

> need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

> principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

>

> -- wally

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 2 for 1 on all Clif Bars @ healthshop.com! Buy a box of Clif Bars and

> get a second one, FREE! Good on original Clif bars and new Luna Bars.

> Only at healthshop.com! http://clickhere./click/997

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

why aa ruined my life/

Rebekah wrote:

> >Rita,

> >Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this list. It

> >gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds of

> >verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

> >Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to articulate my

> >feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to me. I

> >don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

> >critical thinking and analysis.

> >

> >I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in relation

> >to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

children.....

> >

> >I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces me to

> >challenge wrong-thinking ideas

> >and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

> >anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

> >happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who decided

> >to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

> >

> > Rebekah

> >

> > Hey Perkins --

> >

> > Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what

> >is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe

> >their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another

> >on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you

> >see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common that we

> >are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

> >

> >>

> >> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

> >>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

> >>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

> >>

> >

> >

> > The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences.

> >Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the

> >damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around "

> >is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you

> >weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be

> >interested in this list.

> >

> > Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon

> >as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for

> >one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was

> >threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

> >myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison

> >or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're " working

> >on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically

> >damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power greater

> >than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!!

> >

> >~Rita

> >

> >

> >

> >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 04:14 PM 24/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>YOUR A GROUP WITH SIMILAR VIEWS RIGHT, THEN YOU ARE GROUPERS. I DONT HAVE A

>PROBLEM WITH DISKLIKING THE 12 STEPS OR YOUR GROUP. I CAN REJECT THE 12

>STEPS COMPLETLEY BECAUSE THEY DONT WORK. SO EVERY TIME WE ARE HURT WERE

>GONNA START A NEW GROUP? I THOUGHT YOUR GROUP WAS ABOUT FREEDOM, BUT I CANT

>SEE ANY FREEDOM HERE EXCEPT YOUR FREEDOM TO TO BE CRITCAL.

Yes, but what's your POINT?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 04:14 PM 24/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>YOUR A GROUP WITH SIMILAR VIEWS RIGHT, THEN YOU ARE GROUPERS. I DONT HAVE A

>PROBLEM WITH DISKLIKING THE 12 STEPS OR YOUR GROUP. I CAN REJECT THE 12

>STEPS COMPLETLEY BECAUSE THEY DONT WORK. SO EVERY TIME WE ARE HURT WERE

>GONNA START A NEW GROUP? I THOUGHT YOUR GROUP WAS ABOUT FREEDOM, BUT I CANT

>SEE ANY FREEDOM HERE EXCEPT YOUR FREEDOM TO TO BE CRITCAL.

Yes, but what's your POINT?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 04:14 PM 24/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>YOUR A GROUP WITH SIMILAR VIEWS RIGHT, THEN YOU ARE GROUPERS. I DONT HAVE A

>PROBLEM WITH DISKLIKING THE 12 STEPS OR YOUR GROUP. I CAN REJECT THE 12

>STEPS COMPLETLEY BECAUSE THEY DONT WORK. SO EVERY TIME WE ARE HURT WERE

>GONNA START A NEW GROUP? I THOUGHT YOUR GROUP WAS ABOUT FREEDOM, BUT I CANT

>SEE ANY FREEDOM HERE EXCEPT YOUR FREEDOM TO TO BE CRITCAL.

Yes, but what's your POINT?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 04:36 PM 24/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Trolling, what the hell does that mean? is it your grouper lingo? aa police?

>you talk in aa lingo more than 12 steppers i know.im amazed you coined a

>phrase from the 12 steps. so anybody who disagrees with you is the aa

>police? are you paranoid or something? do you really think that aaers are

>out there checking what you say, or even care. i realize that it makes some

>of you feel better to think im an aaer, youve stated that clearly. it

>probablly helps you to understand why somewone who hates the 12 steps also

>hates what your doing fine, i can live with that.

Yes, your points about this group are all very interesting, but did you

actually have anything else to say?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

WHAT'S THAT, GARY? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, YOU'LL HAVE TO TYPE LOUDER!!!

, we are just one (very small)bunch of people in

the vastness that is the Internet, and we are, for the

most part, very happy to sit here and rake AA over the

coals. We choose to. We have all actively chosen to

participate here, and we are all equally capable of

leaving or simply not posting whenever we wish. It seems

to work for us, and if it ceases to, none of us have to

continue. Anyone who wants to go do something else can

leave, and we won't make dire predictions for them. As

far as I can tell, none of the participants here felt

AA was so obliging.

Since you evidently don't like what we are doing here, and are

unable (or simply unwilling) to write coherent, grammatically

correct posts, you might want to consider leaving. You are

perfectly free to do so, and if all we do is make you angry it

might be a good idea. I'm sure you have better things to do.

Cheers,

.

> YOUR A GROUP WITH SIMILAR VIEWS RIGHT, THEN YOU ARE GROUPERS. I DONT HAVE A

> PROBLEM WITH DISKLIKING THE 12 STEPS OR YOUR GROUP. I CAN REJECT THE 12

> STEPS COMPLETLEY BECAUSE THEY DONT WORK. SO EVERY TIME WE ARE HURT WERE

> GONNA START A NEW GROUP? I THOUGHT YOUR GROUP WAS ABOUT FREEDOM, BUT I CANT

> SEE ANY FREEDOM HERE EXCEPT YOUR FREEDOM TO TO BE CRITCAL.

>

> Railroad Rita wrote:

>

> > ---

> >

> > On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:38:11 gary perkins

> > wrote:

> >

> > >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if

> > and when you went)and everyone

> > >jumped all over you because they thought you

> > were the devil? thats what you

> > >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont

> > agree with our philosophy, must be

> > >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we

> > would associate with because they

> > >dont think like us.

> >

> > Hey Perkins --

> >

> > Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy "

> > to which you refer? And what is the

> > " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a

> > list where people describe their individual

> > opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with

> > one another on various things, and have

> > related quite differing experiences. If you

> > see us as clones of one another merely

> > because we have in common that we are put off

> > by 12-step ideology, then you have a very

> > limited outlook.

> >

> > >

> > > lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

> > >dragging them around with us. if im wrong

> > about any of this please let me

> > >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that

> > matter why ?bashing is healthy.

> > >

> >

> > The point is, we have been HURT by our

> > AA or other A experiences. Some of us are

> > undergoing professional therapy to help heal

> > from the damage. Telling us to " just forget

> > about it and stop dragging it around " is as

> > cruel as telling a rape victim to " just

> > forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by

> > your experience then I do wonder why you

> > would be interested in this list.

> >

> > Remember something else: if you were

> > able to stop attending AA as soon as you

> > decided it wasn't for you, then you are

> > luckier than many. I, for one, was among the

> > many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO

> > LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if

> > I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed

> > myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some

> > people are threatened with prison or loss of

> > custody of their children if they don't

> > " prove " they're " working on recovery " by

> > babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this

> > psychologically damaging religion is forced

> > on people by others with literal " power

> > greater than themselves " is reason enough to

> > BASH AA!!

> >

> > ~Rita

> >

> >

> > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> >

[Guest guest]

And just where in this did I say AA ruined my life?

I found it to be more harmful than helpful to me personally and I sought

help in other areas. What's wrong with that? Rebekah

>why aa ruined my life/

>

>Rebekah wrote:

>

>> >Rita,

>> >Thanks for the great response. This is exactly why I am on this list. It

>> >gives me a chance to hear how the rest of you respond to these kinds of

>> >verbal attacks. I wish it were as simple to just walk away from AA.

>> >Unfortunately, much of my recovery has been about learning to articulate my

>> >feelings about why AA and the 12 step philosophy has been harmful to me. I

>> >don't view it as bashing, but as a part of developing the skills of

>> >critical thinking and analysis.

>> >

>> >I've heard that " Why don't you just get over it " thrown around in relation

>> >to so many things...racism, parents grieving over the death of thier

>children.....

>> >

>> >I continue to get angry about it. The good thing is that it forces me to

>> >challenge wrong-thinking ideas

>> >and do something concrete about it like deciding not to be a victim

>> >anymore. I can think of some horrible situations that would still be

>> >happening in the world if there weren't some courageous people who decided

>> >to challenge well-accepted concepts and ideas.

>> >

>> > Rebekah

>>

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 PM 24/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

>weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

>opinion and leave....

<tearful farewell of total stranger snipped>

It's amazing how some people will read a list that they obviously do not

like at all for weeks at a time, and then complain about the contents!

Here's an idea. When you go to the supermarket, make sure yuou buy some

food you really don't like. Enough to last until your next big shop. Eat it

every day, several big helpings. You hate it but you gotta eat it. Repeat

this so that you eat the food you hate for several weeks. Then go back to

the supermarket and complain to the manager that you didn't like the food

you've been buying. Tell him or her exactly what you think is wrong with

it. Note his or her reaction.

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 PM 24/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

>weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

>opinion and leave....

<tearful farewell of total stranger snipped>

It's amazing how some people will read a list that they obviously do not

like at all for weeks at a time, and then complain about the contents!

Here's an idea. When you go to the supermarket, make sure yuou buy some

food you really don't like. Enough to last until your next big shop. Eat it

every day, several big helpings. You hate it but you gotta eat it. Repeat

this so that you eat the food you hate for several weeks. Then go back to

the supermarket and complain to the manager that you didn't like the food

you've been buying. Tell him or her exactly what you think is wrong with

it. Note his or her reaction.

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 PM 24/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Ya know what? I've been listening to you people bitch now for the the 6-8

>weeks since I joined this loop, and I guess it's about time I voice my

>opinion and leave....

<tearful farewell of total stranger snipped>

It's amazing how some people will read a list that they obviously do not

like at all for weeks at a time, and then complain about the contents!

Here's an idea. When you go to the supermarket, make sure yuou buy some

food you really don't like. Enough to last until your next big shop. Eat it

every day, several big helpings. You hate it but you gotta eat it. Repeat

this so that you eat the food you hate for several weeks. Then go back to

the supermarket and complain to the manager that you didn't like the food

you've been buying. Tell him or her exactly what you think is wrong with

it. Note his or her reaction.

Joe Berenbaum