Re: am i talking about you ?

[Guest guest]

> ... please help me get off this mailing list...

It's not that easy. FIRST you have to admit that you're powerless over

mailing lists...

[Guest guest]

> ... please help me get off this mailing list...

It's not that easy. FIRST you have to admit that you're powerless over

mailing lists...

[Guest guest]

The name of the group is 12-STEP-FREE....

GET IT?????

whamm6747-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8114

> Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest

of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths' ?

> I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free

from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

> Grow up and stop blaming the world for you problems.

> peace Ed

[Guest guest]

hello everyone, i made a mistake i feel in suggesting that the godhates fags

web site was funny. i don't think that gay bashing is funny. i'm not making

fun of gays. i was poking fun at the christians who have a web site dedicated

to gay bashing. there is nothing funny about that. i made a mistake. that was

poor judgement on my part and i appologize for that. It would be nice if

everyone respected everyone elses religion. However, i don't feel a need to

respect the people who pistol whipped and left little Mathew Shepard to die.

I don't feel a need to respect the people who chose to show up at his funeral

holding signs that say god hates fags. I do feel i need to discredit them,

criticize them, and condemn them. i don't appologize for that.

[Guest guest]

I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to offer

besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight about

staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience with

AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines there

is a moderator, is there not?

Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

email after subscribing:

/info/help.html

Peace to you, Ed.

Judith

> Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there mouths'

? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up and

stop blaming the world for you problems.

> peace Ed

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

At 10:03 PM 19/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

>people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

>other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths' ?

>I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

>drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

>alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

>groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

>Grow up and stop blaming the world for you problems.

>peace Ed

1] Your first sentence doesn't make sense, and your punctuation and

spelling aren't helping you.

2] Why exactly should one of us " get you off this maiing list " ? You got

yourself on it. How well does this infantile demand fit with your

suggestion that we " grow up " ?

3] What's your point?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 10:03 PM 19/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

>people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

>other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths' ?

>I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

>drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

>alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

>groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

>Grow up and stop blaming the world for you problems.

>peace Ed

1] Your first sentence doesn't make sense, and your punctuation and

spelling aren't helping you.

2] Why exactly should one of us " get you off this maiing list " ? You got

yourself on it. How well does this infantile demand fit with your

suggestion that we " grow up " ?

3] What's your point?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, a lot of people DO think that site is a joke! My

apologies if I came down hard on you--I honestly didn't think you were

in agreement with them, but I sent off the reply a bit too abruptly al

the same.

I live in a town that likes to think of itself as a nice, liberal

college town, but there's a lot of Christian Identity and other extreme

hate groups working in the area. The juxtaposition of " funny sites "

and " godhatesfags.com " hit a nerve...

---.

jero19991-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8118

> hello everyone, i made a mistake i feel in suggesting that the

godhates fags

> web site was funny. i don't think that gay bashing is funny. i'm not

making

> fun of gays. i was poking fun at the christians who have a web site

dedicated

> to gay bashing. there is nothing funny about that. i made a mistake.

that was

> poor judgement on my part and i appologize for that. It would be nice

if

> everyone respected everyone elses religion. However, i don't feel a

need to

> respect the people who pistol whipped and left little Mathew Shepard

to die.

> I don't feel a need to respect the people who chose to show up at his

funeral

> holding signs that say god hates fags. I do feel i need to discredit

them,

> criticize them, and condemn them. i don't appologize for that.

[Guest guest]

whamm6747-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8114

> Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest

of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths' ?

> I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free

from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

> Grow up and stop blaming the world for you problems.

> peace Ed

Ed,

I agree that just bashing AA isn't enough, but a lot of people have

been forced to accept AA over the years and have been harmed by it; I

think it's therapeutic for them to finally be able to express their

anger at being sold a bill of goods. Those who've been coerced into

accepting the 12-step doctrine have the right to hear the other side,

which they're certainly not getting now. As for blaming, what's more

irresponsible than blaming all your problems on a nonexistent disease?

Fred

[Guest guest]

whamm6747-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8114

> Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest

of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths' ?

> I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free

from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

> Grow up and stop blaming the world for you problems.

> peace Ed

Ed,

I agree that just bashing AA isn't enough, but a lot of people have

been forced to accept AA over the years and have been harmed by it; I

think it's therapeutic for them to finally be able to express their

anger at being sold a bill of goods. Those who've been coerced into

accepting the 12-step doctrine have the right to hear the other side,

which they're certainly not getting now. As for blaming, what's more

irresponsible than blaming all your problems on a nonexistent disease?

Fred

[Guest guest]

thank you

[Guest guest]

Wow. I trust people to be honest about their intentions. I know that's

idealistic and lots of people are uncertain themselves about what motivates

them. But I get the impression that this whole thing is a joke to you. My

response was NOT a joke. I really, truly would like to hear something other

than criticism from you, because I think you probably have some very

valuable insights. But I can't hear them until you talk about them.

For what it's worth, I question my own anger about AA. In my situation AA

was clearly destructive, but it was also a long time ago. Your post made me

re-evaluate my feelings. After evaluation, I came to the conclusion that my

anger is indeed valid. Chemical dependency/ addiction is overdiagnosed, AA

is overprescribed.

So the next step, after recognizing and evaluating my anger, is to rechannel

the energy I put into feeling bad, into positive work to realize my goal of

providing alternatives to AA. I accept my anger. I am grateful for the

gift of anger, that allows me to be aware that I have a problem that needs

to be addressed.

You can leave if you want. Maybe you are just a stepper in 12 step free

clothing. But I am holding out that hope against hope that you actually

want to be here, that you actually believe in thinking for yourself and

being true to your own values.

Judith

> LOL

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Wow. I trust people to be honest about their intentions. I know that's

idealistic and lots of people are uncertain themselves about what motivates

them. But I get the impression that this whole thing is a joke to you. My

response was NOT a joke. I really, truly would like to hear something other

than criticism from you, because I think you probably have some very

valuable insights. But I can't hear them until you talk about them.

For what it's worth, I question my own anger about AA. In my situation AA

was clearly destructive, but it was also a long time ago. Your post made me

re-evaluate my feelings. After evaluation, I came to the conclusion that my

anger is indeed valid. Chemical dependency/ addiction is overdiagnosed, AA

is overprescribed.

So the next step, after recognizing and evaluating my anger, is to rechannel

the energy I put into feeling bad, into positive work to realize my goal of

providing alternatives to AA. I accept my anger. I am grateful for the

gift of anger, that allows me to be aware that I have a problem that needs

to be addressed.

You can leave if you want. Maybe you are just a stepper in 12 step free

clothing. But I am holding out that hope against hope that you actually

want to be here, that you actually believe in thinking for yourself and

being true to your own values.

Judith

> LOL

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Wow. I trust people to be honest about their intentions. I know that's

idealistic and lots of people are uncertain themselves about what motivates

them. But I get the impression that this whole thing is a joke to you. My

response was NOT a joke. I really, truly would like to hear something other

than criticism from you, because I think you probably have some very

valuable insights. But I can't hear them until you talk about them.

For what it's worth, I question my own anger about AA. In my situation AA

was clearly destructive, but it was also a long time ago. Your post made me

re-evaluate my feelings. After evaluation, I came to the conclusion that my

anger is indeed valid. Chemical dependency/ addiction is overdiagnosed, AA

is overprescribed.

So the next step, after recognizing and evaluating my anger, is to rechannel

the energy I put into feeling bad, into positive work to realize my goal of

providing alternatives to AA. I accept my anger. I am grateful for the

gift of anger, that allows me to be aware that I have a problem that needs

to be addressed.

You can leave if you want. Maybe you are just a stepper in 12 step free

clothing. But I am holding out that hope against hope that you actually

want to be here, that you actually believe in thinking for yourself and

being true to your own values.

Judith

> LOL

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

I've had some time to think about this post, and why I felt so

disturbed and defensive after reading it. This group has been the first

place I have been allowed to even begin to express my reservations with 12

step groups without fear of being ostrasized, rejected, demeaned, or

threatened. It's really the first safe place I have felt comfortable with

even having the " audacity "

to question concepts that were given to me as " gospel " . Yeah, I am angry.

I think that anger is relative to amount of coersion I experienced when I

was presented with " the solution " .

Someone could argue that there are different options for recovering,

and that I was free to just make a choice and " get a life " . I don't think

it is that simple. For the majority of us here in this group- those

choices weren't offered with an open hand. If someone held out 3

choices....A, B, and C - and you knew that if you chose A that person would

approve, and if you chose one of the others they had a big stick behind

thier back to hit you over the head with....now would that really seem like

a choice? How many times have we all heard...oh you are free to leave, but

be told to do so would mean jails, institutiuons and death to bring up a

popular phrase. How are people described who don't think the 12 steps are

some kind of sacred thing? Incapable of being honest, in denial, looking

for an excuse to drink or use, on a dry-drunk, just to name a few.

Than there is my background. I keep thinking of a small child in a

crazy alcoholic family who is told " If you don't like it there's the door "

or " You would be nowhere without me " .

I think anger is a common reaction for people who have left 12 step

groups. I also think it is a critical process for people after they leave.

How else do you work out those conflicts? I don't do it with people whose

choice is the 12 steps. I do it here in this group. The venting and joking

has been a very healthy way for me to let off steam. I'm glad this group

has been here for me. It's been like free therapy. I've gotten my sense of

humor back. Rebekah

><{{{{{o> <o}}}}}>< <o}}}}}><

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

" Human beings were invented by water

as a device for transporting itself

from one place to another. "

(from EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES / Tom Robbins)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

<o}}}}}>< <{{{{{o> <o}}}}}><

WATER IS LIFE

[Guest guest]

I've had some time to think about this post, and why I felt so

disturbed and defensive after reading it. This group has been the first

place I have been allowed to even begin to express my reservations with 12

step groups without fear of being ostrasized, rejected, demeaned, or

threatened. It's really the first safe place I have felt comfortable with

even having the " audacity "

to question concepts that were given to me as " gospel " . Yeah, I am angry.

I think that anger is relative to amount of coersion I experienced when I

was presented with " the solution " .

Someone could argue that there are different options for recovering,

and that I was free to just make a choice and " get a life " . I don't think

it is that simple. For the majority of us here in this group- those

choices weren't offered with an open hand. If someone held out 3

choices....A, B, and C - and you knew that if you chose A that person would

approve, and if you chose one of the others they had a big stick behind

thier back to hit you over the head with....now would that really seem like

a choice? How many times have we all heard...oh you are free to leave, but

be told to do so would mean jails, institutiuons and death to bring up a

popular phrase. How are people described who don't think the 12 steps are

some kind of sacred thing? Incapable of being honest, in denial, looking

for an excuse to drink or use, on a dry-drunk, just to name a few.

Than there is my background. I keep thinking of a small child in a

crazy alcoholic family who is told " If you don't like it there's the door "

or " You would be nowhere without me " .

I think anger is a common reaction for people who have left 12 step

groups. I also think it is a critical process for people after they leave.

How else do you work out those conflicts? I don't do it with people whose

choice is the 12 steps. I do it here in this group. The venting and joking

has been a very healthy way for me to let off steam. I'm glad this group

has been here for me. It's been like free therapy. I've gotten my sense of

humor back. Rebekah

><{{{{{o> <o}}}}}>< <o}}}}}><

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

" Human beings were invented by water

as a device for transporting itself

from one place to another. "

(from EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES / Tom Robbins)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

<o}}}}}>< <{{{{{o> <o}}}}}><

WATER IS LIFE

[Guest guest]

I don't take what you wrote personally at all, gary. But I'd like to

clarify a couple of things.

First, you say, " This was a response to someone, maybe me. " I've quoted

your post, which included my post along with the original post I was

responding to (from WHamm67471@... who signed his name Ed). I was

responding directly to him. Not to you or anyone else.

Second, you say " Dont get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or

to take my focus away from my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk

away. What we dont need is another group to go to. " Then please don't go!

Again, unless you're the original poster, I wasn't talking to you.

By the way, the steps didn't work for me, and I walked away. I talk about it

here, which works pretty well for me.

Best of luck to you--Judith

> please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what your

going

> through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

criticism of

> what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs free

without

> the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me as so

funny

> because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 steps?

Dont

> get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my focus

away from

> my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need is

another

> group to go to.

>

> Xgrouper

>

> Xgrouper

>

>

>

>

> Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to

offer

> > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight

about

> > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> >

> > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience

with

> > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines

there

> > is a moderator, is there not?

> >

> > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

> > email after subscribing:

> >

> > /info/help.html

> >

> > Peace to you, Ed.

> >

> > Judith

> >

> >

> >

> > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of

the

> > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

> > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths'

> > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free

from

> > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking

at

> > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough

hate

> > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up

and

> > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > peace Ed

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

I don't take what you wrote personally at all, gary. But I'd like to

clarify a couple of things.

First, you say, " This was a response to someone, maybe me. " I've quoted

your post, which included my post along with the original post I was

responding to (from WHamm67471@... who signed his name Ed). I was

responding directly to him. Not to you or anyone else.

Second, you say " Dont get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or

to take my focus away from my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk

away. What we dont need is another group to go to. " Then please don't go!

Again, unless you're the original poster, I wasn't talking to you.

By the way, the steps didn't work for me, and I walked away. I talk about it

here, which works pretty well for me.

Best of luck to you--Judith

> please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what your

going

> through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

criticism of

> what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs free

without

> the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me as so

funny

> because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 steps?

Dont

> get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my focus

away from

> my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need is

another

> group to go to.

>

> Xgrouper

>

> Xgrouper

>

>

>

>

> Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to

offer

> > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight

about

> > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> >

> > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience

with

> > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines

there

> > is a moderator, is there not?

> >

> > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

> > email after subscribing:

> >

> > /info/help.html

> >

> > Peace to you, Ed.

> >

> > Judith

> >

> >

> >

> > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of

the

> > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

> > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

mouths'

> > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free

from

> > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking

at

> > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough

hate

> > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up

and

> > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > peace Ed

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what your going

through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides criticism of

what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs free without

the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me as so funny

because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 steps? Dont

get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my focus away from

my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need is another

group to go to.

Xgrouper

Xgrouper

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to offer

> besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight about

> staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

>

> In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience with

> AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines there

> is a moderator, is there not?

>

> Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

> email after subscribing:

>

> /info/help.html

>

> Peace to you, Ed.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there mouths'

> ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up and

> stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > peace Ed

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what your going

through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides criticism of

what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs free without

the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me as so funny

because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 steps? Dont

get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my focus away from

my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need is another

group to go to.

Xgrouper

Xgrouper

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to offer

> besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight about

> staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

>

> In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience with

> AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines there

> is a moderator, is there not?

>

> Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

> email after subscribing:

>

> /info/help.html

>

> Peace to you, Ed.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there mouths'

> ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up and

> stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > peace Ed

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what your going

through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides criticism of

what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs free without

the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me as so funny

because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 steps? Dont

get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my focus away from

my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need is another

group to go to.

Xgrouper

Xgrouper

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything to offer

> besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some insight about

> staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

>

> In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my experience with

> AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable guidelines there

> is a moderator, is there not?

>

> Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my initial

> email after subscribing:

>

> /info/help.html

>

> Peace to you, Ed.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the rest of the

> people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation over

> other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there mouths'

> ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying free from

> drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of looking at

> alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are enough hate

> groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow up and

> stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > peace Ed

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Bekerah,

Couldn't have said it better! You go girlfriend.

Re: am i talking about you ?

>

>

> I've had some time to think about this post, and why I felt so

>disturbed and defensive after reading it. This group has been the first

>place I have been allowed to even begin to express my reservations with 12

>step groups without fear of being ostrasized, rejected, demeaned, or

>threatened. It's really the first safe place I have felt comfortable with

>even having the " audacity "

>to question concepts that were given to me as " gospel " . Yeah, I am angry.

>I think that anger is relative to amount of coersion I experienced when I

>was presented with " the solution " .

>

> Someone could argue that there are different options for recovering,

>and that I was free to just make a choice and " get a life " . I don't think

>it is that simple. For the majority of us here in this group- those

>choices weren't offered with an open hand. If someone held out 3

>choices....A, B, and C - and you knew that if you chose A that person would

>approve, and if you chose one of the others they had a big stick behind

>thier back to hit you over the head with....now would that really seem like

>a choice? How many times have we all heard...oh you are free to leave, but

>be told to do so would mean jails, institutiuons and death to bring up a

>popular phrase. How are people described who don't think the 12 steps are

>some kind of sacred thing? Incapable of being honest, in denial, looking

>for an excuse to drink or use, on a dry-drunk, just to name a few.

>

> Than there is my background. I keep thinking of a small child in a

>crazy alcoholic family who is told " If you don't like it there's the door "

>or " You would be nowhere without me " .

>

> I think anger is a common reaction for people who have left 12 step

>groups. I also think it is a critical process for people after they leave.

>How else do you work out those conflicts? I don't do it with people whose

>choice is the 12 steps. I do it here in this group. The venting and joking

>has been a very healthy way for me to let off steam. I'm glad this group

>has been here for me. It's been like free therapy. I've gotten my sense of

>humor back. Rebekah

>

> ><{{{{{o> <o}}}}}>< <o}}}}}><

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> " Human beings were invented by water

> as a device for transporting itself

> from one place to another. "

>

>(from EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES / Tom Robbins)

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> <o}}}}}>< <{{{{{o> <o}}}}}><

>

> WATER IS LIFE

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

>you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

>today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bekerah,

Couldn't have said it better! You go girlfriend.

Re: am i talking about you ?

>

>

> I've had some time to think about this post, and why I felt so

>disturbed and defensive after reading it. This group has been the first

>place I have been allowed to even begin to express my reservations with 12

>step groups without fear of being ostrasized, rejected, demeaned, or

>threatened. It's really the first safe place I have felt comfortable with

>even having the " audacity "

>to question concepts that were given to me as " gospel " . Yeah, I am angry.

>I think that anger is relative to amount of coersion I experienced when I

>was presented with " the solution " .

>

> Someone could argue that there are different options for recovering,

>and that I was free to just make a choice and " get a life " . I don't think

>it is that simple. For the majority of us here in this group- those

>choices weren't offered with an open hand. If someone held out 3

>choices....A, B, and C - and you knew that if you chose A that person would

>approve, and if you chose one of the others they had a big stick behind

>thier back to hit you over the head with....now would that really seem like

>a choice? How many times have we all heard...oh you are free to leave, but

>be told to do so would mean jails, institutiuons and death to bring up a

>popular phrase. How are people described who don't think the 12 steps are

>some kind of sacred thing? Incapable of being honest, in denial, looking

>for an excuse to drink or use, on a dry-drunk, just to name a few.

>

> Than there is my background. I keep thinking of a small child in a

>crazy alcoholic family who is told " If you don't like it there's the door "

>or " You would be nowhere without me " .

>

> I think anger is a common reaction for people who have left 12 step

>groups. I also think it is a critical process for people after they leave.

>How else do you work out those conflicts? I don't do it with people whose

>choice is the 12 steps. I do it here in this group. The venting and joking

>has been a very healthy way for me to let off steam. I'm glad this group

>has been here for me. It's been like free therapy. I've gotten my sense of

>humor back. Rebekah

>

> ><{{{{{o> <o}}}}}>< <o}}}}}><

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> " Human beings were invented by water

> as a device for transporting itself

> from one place to another. "

>

>(from EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES / Tom Robbins)

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> <o}}}}}>< <{{{{{o> <o}}}}}><

>

> WATER IS LIFE

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

>you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

>today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bekerah,

Couldn't have said it better! You go girlfriend.

Re: am i talking about you ?

>

>

> I've had some time to think about this post, and why I felt so

>disturbed and defensive after reading it. This group has been the first

>place I have been allowed to even begin to express my reservations with 12

>step groups without fear of being ostrasized, rejected, demeaned, or

>threatened. It's really the first safe place I have felt comfortable with

>even having the " audacity "

>to question concepts that were given to me as " gospel " . Yeah, I am angry.

>I think that anger is relative to amount of coersion I experienced when I

>was presented with " the solution " .

>

> Someone could argue that there are different options for recovering,

>and that I was free to just make a choice and " get a life " . I don't think

>it is that simple. For the majority of us here in this group- those

>choices weren't offered with an open hand. If someone held out 3

>choices....A, B, and C - and you knew that if you chose A that person would

>approve, and if you chose one of the others they had a big stick behind

>thier back to hit you over the head with....now would that really seem like

>a choice? How many times have we all heard...oh you are free to leave, but

>be told to do so would mean jails, institutiuons and death to bring up a

>popular phrase. How are people described who don't think the 12 steps are

>some kind of sacred thing? Incapable of being honest, in denial, looking

>for an excuse to drink or use, on a dry-drunk, just to name a few.

>

> Than there is my background. I keep thinking of a small child in a

>crazy alcoholic family who is told " If you don't like it there's the door "

>or " You would be nowhere without me " .

>

> I think anger is a common reaction for people who have left 12 step

>groups. I also think it is a critical process for people after they leave.

>How else do you work out those conflicts? I don't do it with people whose

>choice is the 12 steps. I do it here in this group. The venting and joking

>has been a very healthy way for me to let off steam. I'm glad this group

>has been here for me. It's been like free therapy. I've gotten my sense of

>humor back. Rebekah

>

> ><{{{{{o> <o}}}}}>< <o}}}}}><

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> " Human beings were invented by water

> as a device for transporting itself

> from one place to another. "

>

>(from EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES / Tom Robbins)

> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

> <o}}}}}>< <{{{{{o> <o}}}}}><

>

> WATER IS LIFE

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

>you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

>today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal

recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active in

my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church on a

walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as

straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a

group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He

said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He was

checking to see if I were Phelps.

The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out gay

board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at

least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up.

P.S. He never showed