Re: am i talking about you ?

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal

recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active in

my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church on a

walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as

straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a

group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He

said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He was

checking to see if I were Phelps.

The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out gay

board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at

least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up.

P.S. He never showed

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Again, good to hear from you. I am cochairing a group called Welcoming

Congregation at our church. It is a way of letting queer people that they

are welcome at our churuch, unlike so many other faiths. All of the members

are straight (

except yours truly.) This list has always made me feel welcome. It's

funny, but once you feel welcome, it becomes almost a non issue.

I guess, though, given my many awful experiences in AA when I came out only

to my sponsor and close friends, there is a connection with the theme of this

list, in that I sought alternatives to AA as aresult of this, and of course

other issues. The idea of asking a Higher Power to keep me sober never

seemed too logical, either.

Anyway, thanks for the post.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Again, good to hear from you. I am cochairing a group called Welcoming

Congregation at our church. It is a way of letting queer people that they

are welcome at our churuch, unlike so many other faiths. All of the members

are straight (

except yours truly.) This list has always made me feel welcome. It's

funny, but once you feel welcome, it becomes almost a non issue.

I guess, though, given my many awful experiences in AA when I came out only

to my sponsor and close friends, there is a connection with the theme of this

list, in that I sought alternatives to AA as aresult of this, and of course

other issues. The idea of asking a Higher Power to keep me sober never

seemed too logical, either.

Anyway, thanks for the post.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I am also a UU and your story brought to mind the comment of a gay person at

our leadership school in July of this year. We were on a hike in the Rocky

Mt. National Forest and as a few men on horseback rode by on the trail, he

said, " I just love men on horseback, I think it is so sexy! " . Later at

dinner he told us at the table that it was good for him to be able to make

that statement in the midst of us. Though I am hetrosexual, (if it makes

any difference) I could see a refreshed look on his face and I knew it was a

good thing that he felt comfortable with us. Many 12 step people are so

bigoted and put off by people that are different. I think it is great that

we have such diversity and I celebrate that! I celebrate that I am no

longer connected with steppism!

Re: am i talking about you ?

> Hi,

> Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal

> recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active

in

> my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church

on a

> walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as

> straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a

> group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He

> said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He

was

> checking to see if I were Phelps.

>

> The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out

gay

> board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at

> least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up.

>

> P.S. He never showed

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless?

> Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/555

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I am also a UU and your story brought to mind the comment of a gay person at

our leadership school in July of this year. We were on a hike in the Rocky

Mt. National Forest and as a few men on horseback rode by on the trail, he

said, " I just love men on horseback, I think it is so sexy! " . Later at

dinner he told us at the table that it was good for him to be able to make

that statement in the midst of us. Though I am hetrosexual, (if it makes

any difference) I could see a refreshed look on his face and I knew it was a

good thing that he felt comfortable with us. Many 12 step people are so

bigoted and put off by people that are different. I think it is great that

we have such diversity and I celebrate that! I celebrate that I am no

longer connected with steppism!

Re: am i talking about you ?

> Hi,

> Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal

> recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active

in

> my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church

on a

> walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as

> straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a

> group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He

> said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He

was

> checking to see if I were Phelps.

>

> The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out

gay

> board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at

> least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up.

>

> P.S. He never showed

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless?

> Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/555

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's odd, for whatever reason my last message didn't go through...

so here goes, again--

Hi, --

Thanks for the story! It has occurred to me that Phelps/WBC/godhatesfa

gs

are all based out of Topeka, Kansas--home of the famous Menninger

Psychiatric Clinic. Sets one to wondering...:^)

Cheers,

.

> uusea-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8178

> > Hi,

> > Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my

personal

> > recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very

> active in

> > my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the

> church on a

> > walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all

> indentifty as

> > straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the

> street a

> > group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached

me.

> He

> > said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that

day.

> He was

> > checking to see if I were Phelps.

> >

> > The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first

> out gay

> > board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess

> now at

> > least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes

> up.

> >

> > P.S. He never showed

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is

you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed

minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and

what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out that

people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live the 12

step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of it, and

because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that some

peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one filled with

people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though would be

the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was taught

about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time me.i

love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote. paranoia. so

when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you, think

how you acted when your group got critsized.

s for

t

awatt04@... wrote. .

> Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

>

> you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is

> specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> here are

> prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do

> this as long as we please.

>

> all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone

> who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined,

> you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

>

> So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as

> we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> tactics.

>

> This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

>

> To paraphrase godhatesfags:

>

> " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> abomination. "

>

> I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like,

> where I like, as often as I like,

>

> and you and Ed can

>

> PEACE OFF!!!

>

> gary perkins wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157

> > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what

> your going

> > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> criticism of

> > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> free without

> > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me

> as so funny

> > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12

> steps? Dont

> > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> focus away from

> > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need

> is another

> > group to go to.

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> >

> > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything

> to offer

> > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> insight about

> > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > >

> > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> experience with

> > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> guidelines there

> > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > >

> > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> initial

> > > email after subscribing:

> > >

> > > /info/help.html

> > >

> > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > >

> > > Judith

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> rest of the

> > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

> over

> > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

> mouths'

> > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> free from

> > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> looking at

> > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> enough hate

> > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow

> up and

> > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > peace Ed

> > >

> > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

> you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

> today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other gouprs

like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when someone

critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list and

dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any freedom here

at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old group " .

awatt04@... wrote:

> Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

>

> you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is

> specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> here are

> prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do

> this as long as we please.

>

> all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone

> who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined,

> you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

>

> So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as

> we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> tactics.

>

> This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

>

> To paraphrase godhatesfags:

>

> " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> abomination. "

>

> I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like,

> where I like, as often as I like,

>

> and you and Ed can

>

> PEACE OFF!!!

>

> gary perkins wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157

> > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what

> your going

> > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> criticism of

> > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> free without

> > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me

> as so funny

> > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12

> steps? Dont

> > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> focus away from

> > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need

> is another

> > group to go to.

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> >

> > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything

> to offer

> > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> insight about

> > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > >

> > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> experience with

> > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> guidelines there

> > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > >

> > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> initial

> > > email after subscribing:

> > >

> > > /info/help.html

> > >

> > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > >

> > > Judith

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> rest of the

> > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

> over

> > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

> mouths'

> > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> free from

> > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> looking at

> > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> enough hate

> > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow

> up and

> > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > peace Ed

> > >

> > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

> you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

> today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

" Hell is paved with do- gooders " . it goes both ways

awatt04@... wrote:

> Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

>

> you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is

> specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> here are

> prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do

> this as long as we please.

>

> all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone

> who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined,

> you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

>

> So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as

> we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> tactics.

>

> This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

>

> To paraphrase godhatesfags:

>

> " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> abomination. "

>

> I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like,

> where I like, as often as I like,

>

> and you and Ed can

>

> PEACE OFF!!!

>

> gary perkins wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157

> > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what

> your going

> > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> criticism of

> > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> free without

> > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me

> as so funny

> > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12

> steps? Dont

> > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> focus away from

> > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need

> is another

> > group to go to.

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> > Xgrouper

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> >

> > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything

> to offer

> > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> insight about

> > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > >

> > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> experience with

> > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> guidelines there

> > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > >

> > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> initial

> > > email after subscribing:

> > >

> > > /info/help.html

> > >

> > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > >

> > > Judith

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> rest of the

> > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation

> over

> > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there

> mouths'

> > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> free from

> > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> looking at

> > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> enough hate

> > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow

> up and

> > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > peace Ed

> > >

> > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

> you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

> today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn

them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who

want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator,

why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON

WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont

wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to

this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there

if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

fucking place else, k?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187

> you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and

closed

> minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i

read and

> what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out

that

> people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live

the 12

> step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of

it, and

> because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that

some

> peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

filled with

> people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though

would be

> the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

taught

> about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time

me.i

> love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

paranoia. so

> when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you,

think

> how you acted when your group got critsized.

> s for

> t

> awatt04@... wrote. .

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn

them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who

want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator,

why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON

WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont

wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to

this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there

if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

fucking place else, k?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187

> you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and

closed

> minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i

read and

> what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out

that

> people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live

the 12

> step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of

it, and

> because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that

some

> peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

filled with

> people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though

would be

> the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

taught

> about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time

me.i

> love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

paranoia. so

> when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you,

think

> how you acted when your group got critsized.

> s for

> t

> awatt04@... wrote. .

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I

dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn

them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who

want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator,

why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON

WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont

wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to

this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I

dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there

if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some

fucking place else, k?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187

> you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and

closed

> minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i

read and

> what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out

that

> people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live

the 12

> step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of

it, and

> because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that

some

> peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one

filled with

> people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though

would be

> the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was

taught

> about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time

me.i

> love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote.

paranoia. so

> when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you,

think

> how you acted when your group got critsized.

> s for

> t

> awatt04@... wrote. .

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups

do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group

for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be

allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt,

not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

rest, ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188

> have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because they

> dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that

way and

> so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead

of

> dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> . watt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups

do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group

for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be

allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt,

not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

rest, ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188

> have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because they

> dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that

way and

> so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead

of

> dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> . watt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups

do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group

for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be

allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought

police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt,

not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking

rest, ok?

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188

> have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and

everyone

> jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats

what you

> guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy,

must be

> an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with

because they

> dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that

way and

> so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this

line(notice i

> said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead

of

> dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please

let me

> know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is

healthy.

> . watt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling.

Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

against us.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190

> hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other

gouprs

> like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when

someone

> critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list

and

> dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

freedom here

> at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old

group " .

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling.

Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

against us.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190

> hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other

gouprs

> like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when

someone

> critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list

and

> dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

freedom here

> at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old

group " .

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling.

Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT

total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia

against us.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190

> hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other

gouprs

> like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when

someone

> critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list

and

> dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any

freedom here

> at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old

group " .

>

> awatt04@... wrote:

>

> > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back,

> >

> > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that

> > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery,

it is

> > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain

> > here are

> > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to

do

> > this as long as we please.

> >

> > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of

anyone

> > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just

joined,

> > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it.

> >

> > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing

as

> > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some

> > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated

> > tactics.

> >

> > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away,

> > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least.

> >

> > To paraphrase godhatesfags:

> >

> > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an

> > abomination. "

> >

> > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I

like,

> > where I like, as often as I like,

> >

> > and you and Ed can

> >

> > PEACE OFF!!!

> >

> > gary perkins wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

157

> > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or

what

> > your going

> > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides

> > criticism of

> > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs

> > free without

> > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck

me

> > as so funny

> > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the

12

> > steps? Dont

> > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my

> > focus away from

> > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont

need

> > is another

> > > group to go to.

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > > Xgrouper

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Judith Stillwater wrote:

> > >

> > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have

anything

> > to offer

> > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some

> > insight about

> > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps?

> > > >

> > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my

> > experience with

> > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable

> > guidelines there

> > > > is a moderator, is there not?

> > > >

> > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for

> > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my

> > initial

> > > > email after subscribing:

> > > >

> > > > /info/help.html

> > > >

> > > > Peace to you, Ed.

> > > >

> > > > Judith

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the

> > rest of the

> > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and

condemnation

> > over

> > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of

there

> > mouths'

> > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying

> > free from

> > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of

> > looking at

> > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are

> > enough hate

> > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them.

Grow

> > up and

> > > > stop blaming the world for you problems.

> > > > > peace Ed

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because

they

>dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and

>so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i

>said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of

people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by

studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over

alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control

over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down

to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable,

but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the

loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences,

in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't

help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or

downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was

not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the

hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it

becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled'

behaviour on future drinking occassions.

Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept

their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse,

and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural

mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a

'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!)

promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment

providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't

really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we

are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential

part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA

members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot

of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure.

Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment

centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief,

which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact

that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion.

If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal

pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less

need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

-- wally

[Guest guest]

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because

they

>dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and

>so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i

>said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of

people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by

studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over

alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control

over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down

to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable,

but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the

loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences,

in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't

help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or

downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was

not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the

hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it

becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled'

behaviour on future drinking occassions.

Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept

their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse,

and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural

mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a

'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!)

promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment

providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't

really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we

are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential

part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA

members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot

of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure.

Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment

centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief,

which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact

that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion.

If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal

pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less

need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

-- wally

[Guest guest]

>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because

they

>dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and

>so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i

>said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do.

One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of

people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by

studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over

alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control

over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down

to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable,

but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the

loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences,

in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't

help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or

downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was

not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the

hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it

becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled'

behaviour on future drinking occassions.

Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept

their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse,

and that people who have been to treatment are worse still.

The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural

mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a

'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!)

promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment

providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't

really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we

are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose

abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential

part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA

members, but is in fact a matter of life or death.

Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot

of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure.

Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment

centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief,

which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact

that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our

Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion.

If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal

pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less

need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in

principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it.

-- wally

[Guest guest]

---

>you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is

>you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed

>minded.

How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being

" closed-minded " ?

I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept

of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the

teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more

open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to

be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted

being " honest " .

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

>you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is

>you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed

>minded.

How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being

" closed-minded " ?

I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept

of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the

teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more

open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to

be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted

being " honest " .

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

---

>you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is

>you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed

>minded.

How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being

" closed-minded " ?

I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept

of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the

teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more

open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to

be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted

being " honest " .

~Rita

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[Guest guest]

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>have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone

>jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you

>guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be

>an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they

>dont think like us.

Hey Perkins --

Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what is

the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe their

individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another on various

things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you see us as clones

of one another merely because we have in common that we are put off by 12-step

ideology, then you have a very limited outlook.

>

> lets all forget the 12 steps instead of

>dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me

>know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy.

>

The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences. Some of

us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the damage. Telling us

to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around " is as cruel as telling a

rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by your experience

then I do wonder why you would be interested in this list.

Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon as

you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for one, was

among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was threatened with

being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed myself " powerless "

and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison or loss of custody of

their children if they don't " prove " they're " working on recovery " by babbling

Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically damaging religion is forced on

people by others with literal " power greater than themselves " is reason enough

to BASH AA!!

~Rita

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