Guest guest Posted September 22, 1999 Report Share Posted September 22, 1999 Hi, Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active in my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church on a walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He was checking to see if I were Phelps. The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out gay board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up. P.S. He never showed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1999 Report Share Posted September 22, 1999 Hi , Again, good to hear from you. I am cochairing a group called Welcoming Congregation at our church. It is a way of letting queer people that they are welcome at our churuch, unlike so many other faiths. All of the members are straight ( except yours truly.) This list has always made me feel welcome. It's funny, but once you feel welcome, it becomes almost a non issue. I guess, though, given my many awful experiences in AA when I came out only to my sponsor and close friends, there is a connection with the theme of this list, in that I sought alternatives to AA as aresult of this, and of course other issues. The idea of asking a Higher Power to keep me sober never seemed too logical, either. Anyway, thanks for the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1999 Report Share Posted September 22, 1999 Hi , Again, good to hear from you. I am cochairing a group called Welcoming Congregation at our church. It is a way of letting queer people that they are welcome at our churuch, unlike so many other faiths. All of the members are straight ( except yours truly.) This list has always made me feel welcome. It's funny, but once you feel welcome, it becomes almost a non issue. I guess, though, given my many awful experiences in AA when I came out only to my sponsor and close friends, there is a connection with the theme of this list, in that I sought alternatives to AA as aresult of this, and of course other issues. The idea of asking a Higher Power to keep me sober never seemed too logical, either. Anyway, thanks for the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1999 Report Share Posted September 22, 1999 Hi : I am also a UU and your story brought to mind the comment of a gay person at our leadership school in July of this year. We were on a hike in the Rocky Mt. National Forest and as a few men on horseback rode by on the trail, he said, " I just love men on horseback, I think it is so sexy! " . Later at dinner he told us at the table that it was good for him to be able to make that statement in the midst of us. Though I am hetrosexual, (if it makes any difference) I could see a refreshed look on his face and I knew it was a good thing that he felt comfortable with us. Many 12 step people are so bigoted and put off by people that are different. I think it is great that we have such diversity and I celebrate that! I celebrate that I am no longer connected with steppism! Re: am i talking about you ? > Hi, > Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal > recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active in > my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church on a > walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as > straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a > group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He > said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He was > checking to see if I were Phelps. > > The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out gay > board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at > least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up. > > P.S. He never showed > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Was the salesman clueless? > Productopia has the answers. > http://clickhere./click/555 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1999 Report Share Posted September 22, 1999 Hi : I am also a UU and your story brought to mind the comment of a gay person at our leadership school in July of this year. We were on a hike in the Rocky Mt. National Forest and as a few men on horseback rode by on the trail, he said, " I just love men on horseback, I think it is so sexy! " . Later at dinner he told us at the table that it was good for him to be able to make that statement in the midst of us. Though I am hetrosexual, (if it makes any difference) I could see a refreshed look on his face and I knew it was a good thing that he felt comfortable with us. Many 12 step people are so bigoted and put off by people that are different. I think it is great that we have such diversity and I celebrate that! I celebrate that I am no longer connected with steppism! Re: am i talking about you ? > Hi, > Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal > recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very active in > my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the church on a > walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all indentifty as > straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the street a > group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. He > said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. He was > checking to see if I were Phelps. > > The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first out gay > board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess now at > least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes up. > > P.S. He never showed > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Was the salesman clueless? > Productopia has the answers. > http://clickhere./click/555 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 That's odd, for whatever reason my last message didn't go through... so here goes, again-- Hi, -- Thanks for the story! It has occurred to me that Phelps/WBC/godhatesfa gs are all based out of Topeka, Kansas--home of the famous Menninger Psychiatric Clinic. Sets one to wondering...:^) Cheers, . > uusea-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8178 > > Hi, > > Well I do have a funny story about Phelps. As part of my personal > > recovery plan form years of drug and 12 step abuse, I became very > active in > > my UU church. Two weeks ago, my lover and I led a group from the > church on a > > walking tour of Greenwich Village. I led the group, who all > indentifty as > > straight, to see the Stonewall Inn. We noticed that across the > street a > > group of protesters had assembled. One the protesters approached me. > He > > said that Rev. Phelps was expected to protest the Stonewall that day. > He was > > checking to see if I were Phelps. > > > > The church is having a great time telling the story that thier first > out gay > > board member was confused with the hateful " minister. " So I guess > now at > > least I have reason to smile for the first time when his name comes > up. > > > > P.S. He never showed > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out that people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live the 12 step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of it, and because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that some peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one filled with people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though would be the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was taught about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time me.i love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote. paranoia. so when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you, think how you acted when your group got critsized. s for t awatt04@... wrote. . > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > here are > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > this as long as we please. > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > tactics. > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > abomination. " > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > where I like, as often as I like, > > and you and Ed can > > PEACE OFF!!! > > gary perkins wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157 > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > your going > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > criticism of > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > free without > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > as so funny > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > steps? Dont > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > focus away from > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > is another > > group to go to. > > > > Xgrouper > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > to offer > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > insight about > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > experience with > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > guidelines there > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > initial > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > rest of the > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > over > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > mouths' > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > free from > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > looking at > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > enough hate > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > up and > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before > you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL > today. http://clickhere./click/938 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other gouprs like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when someone critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list and dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any freedom here at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old group " . awatt04@... wrote: > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > here are > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > this as long as we please. > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > tactics. > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > abomination. " > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > where I like, as often as I like, > > and you and Ed can > > PEACE OFF!!! > > gary perkins wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157 > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > your going > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > criticism of > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > free without > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > as so funny > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > steps? Dont > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > focus away from > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > is another > > group to go to. > > > > Xgrouper > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > to offer > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > insight about > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > experience with > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > guidelines there > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > initial > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > rest of the > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > over > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > mouths' > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > free from > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > looking at > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > enough hate > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > up and > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before > you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL > today. http://clickhere./click/938 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 " Hell is paved with do- gooders " . it goes both ways awatt04@... wrote: > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > here are > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > this as long as we please. > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > tactics. > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > abomination. " > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > where I like, as often as I like, > > and you and Ed can > > PEACE OFF!!! > > gary perkins wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8157 > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > your going > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > criticism of > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > free without > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > as so funny > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > steps? Dont > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > focus away from > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > is another > > group to go to. > > > > Xgrouper > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > to offer > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > insight about > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > experience with > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > guidelines there > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > initial > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > rest of the > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > over > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > mouths' > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > free from > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > looking at > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > enough hate > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > up and > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before > you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL > today. http://clickhere./click/938 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator, why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some fucking place else, k? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187 > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out that > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live the 12 > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of it, and > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that some > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one filled with > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though would be > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was taught > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time me.i > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote. paranoia. so > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you, think > how you acted when your group got critsized. > s for > t > awatt04@... wrote. . > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator, why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some fucking place else, k? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187 > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out that > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live the 12 > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of it, and > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that some > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one filled with > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though would be > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was taught > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time me.i > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote. paranoia. so > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you, think > how you acted when your group got critsized. > s for > t > awatt04@... wrote. . > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 and you missed my point dickhead. Lots of ppl liked the Nazis, but I dont believe in doing a Munich and " dialoging " with Nazis. You condemn them. This isnt a place to talk with ppl who like AA, its for ppl who want to talk abt what's wrong with it. If you arent an AA infiltrator, why should it bother you that ppl here attack AA? there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that one has to believe AA is good for anyone, if you dont wish to. Why dont you show some tolerasnce of THAT opinion? I react to this group being criticised here because its OUR FUCKING LIST!!!! I dont try to criticise AA in AA forums, and how long would I last there if I did? So, criticise this group all you like, but do it some fucking place else, k? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8187 > you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is > you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed > minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and > what my immpression of this group are.i was only trying to point out that > people can change and they can do it many different ways. i cant live the 12 > step lifestyle at all, but some people seem to get something out of it, and > because you or i dont like that philosophy wont change the fact that some > peole like it. Of all the groups out there, youd think this one filled with > people who left the 12 steps because there was no freedom of though would be > the one open to dialouge.as far as anger i am angry at what i was taught > about addiction, but complaing about those idiots is a waste of time me.i > love the part about being an aa spy or ?? the hell you wrote. paranoia. so > when you critisize aa for being unhealthy and they lash back at you, think > how you acted when your group got critsized. > s for > t > awatt04@... wrote. . > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt, not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking rest, ok? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188 > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. > . watt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt, not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking rest, ok? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188 > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. > . watt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 My complaint abt AA is not that it encourages conformity - all groups do that. It is what you are encouraged to conform to. This is a group for ppl who dont like AA, so we have every bloody right to expect to be allowed to say it sucks without AAholes like you doing a thought police. You are the one who is trying to limit what ppl can talk abt, not me. To coin a phrase, Take what you like, and leave the fucking rest, ok? gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8188 > have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone > jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you > guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be > an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they > dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and > so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i > said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of > dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me > know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. > . watt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling. Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia against us. gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190 > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other gouprs > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when someone > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list and > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any freedom here > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old group " . > > awatt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling. Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia against us. gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190 > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other gouprs > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when someone > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list and > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any freedom here > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old group " . > > awatt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1999 Report Share Posted September 23, 1999 Hey you and he are probably the same person. nice bit of trolling. Eventually Ken will get round to [both of] you. No , there ISNT total freedom here. Here, you are NOT ALLOWED to defend AA-philia against us. gary perkins wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8190 > hey Ed i dont know you, but im kinda with you. lets talk about other gouprs > like the 12 steps and just tak abou how fucked up they are, but when someone > critisizes us, lets tell them to fuck off and get off the groups list and > dont try and change us. notice any similarities. i dont see any freedom here > at all. as far as im concerned " meet the new group, same as the old group " . > > awatt04@... wrote: > > > Mr Perkins, and the 'Ed' of a while back, > > > > you have been quite clearly shown, TWICE directly on this list, that > > this list is not particularly abt alternative addiction recovery, it is > > specifically abt talking abt how AA sucks donkeys. Those who remain > > here are > > prresumably VERY VERY happy to talk abt this, and will continue to do > > this as long as we please. > > > > all this is irrelevant of coure, since the sensible practice of anyone > > who has a brain is that if you dont like a list you have just joined, > > you dont try to change it but get the fuck off of it. > > > > So Ed and Mr Perkins, you may very well be XA infiltrators, seeing as > > we have been, as far as I know, unmolested by them for quite some > > while. I guess it's abt time for an attack using more sophisticated > > tactics. > > > > This " Why can't we all just get along " post rather gives you away, > > Grouper - for it shows you as an AA apologist at least. > > > > To paraphrase godhatesfags: > > > > " One does not sit with LIES as one sits with TRUTH; for that is an > > abomination. " > > > > I believe AA sucks donkeys, and I will continue to say so when I like, > > where I like, as often as I like, > > > > and you and Ed can > > > > PEACE OFF!!! > > > > gary perkins wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 157 > > > please dont take this personallym i have nothing against you or what > > your going > > > through but you wrote to ?? " do you have anything to offer besides > > criticism of > > > what others post, how about sharing some ideas about staying drugs > > free without > > > the steps " . This was a response to someone, maybe me. This struck me > > as so funny > > > because most of the posts i have looked at are criticisms of the 12 > > steps? Dont > > > get me wrong, i dont use the 12 steps for recovery or to take my > > focus away from > > > my recovery. If the 12 steps dont work, walk away. What we dont need > > is another > > > group to go to. > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > Xgrouper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > > > > I don't believe I've seen your name before. Do you have anything > > to offer > > > > besides criticism of what others post? How about sharing some > > insight about > > > > staying drug and alcohol free without the steps? > > > > > > > > In defense of my own posts about my anger and pain after my > > experience with > > > > AA, well, they help me. If my posts fall outside acceptable > > guidelines there > > > > is a moderator, is there not? > > > > > > > > Re: helping you get off the list. I don't have instructions for > > > > unsubscribing, but here is the egroups general help URL from my > > initial > > > > email after subscribing: > > > > > > > > /info/help.html > > > > > > > > Peace to you, Ed. > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get a life,(this is addressed to any who it may apply) are the > > rest of the > > > > people who belong to this group filled with hate, and condemnation > > over > > > > other's beliefs that that over look the hate the spews out of there > > mouths' > > > > ? I thought this was group that looked at other ways of staying > > free from > > > > drugs. IF this group is about bashing 12 step groups instead of > > looking at > > > > alternatives please help me get off this mailing list. There are > > enough hate > > > > groups in the world I have no wish to be part of any of them. Grow > > up and > > > > stop blaming the world for you problems. > > > > > peace Ed > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do. One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable, but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences, in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled' behaviour on future drinking occassions. Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse, and that people who have been to treatment are worse still. The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!) promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA members, but is in fact a matter of life or death. Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure. Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief, which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion. If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do. One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable, but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences, in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled' behaviour on future drinking occassions. Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse, and that people who have been to treatment are worse still. The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!) promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA members, but is in fact a matter of life or death. Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure. Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief, which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion. If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they >dont think like us. if they believe this way they cant believe that way and >so on and so on. i like some of the ideas broought up on this line(notice i >said ideas) not the aa bashing. lets all forget the 12 steps instead of >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. There are several reasons why bashing AA is a healthy thing to do. One of them is that AA promotes unhealthy ideas about alcohol, and a lot of people get into trouble with alcohol because of AA. It has been shown by studies, both cultural and clinical in nature, that loss of control over alcohol is a myth. Why then, do people act as though they have lost control over their drinking? There are a number of reasons, but they all boil down to the fact that many drinkers BELIEVE the myth! Drinking is pleasurable, but it sometimes has unfortunate consequences later. Those who believe the loss-of-control myth are likelier to discount future adverse consequences, in favor of immediate pleasure, by telling themselves that they " just can't help it. " Secondly, many heavy drinkers have wound up doing stupid or downright awful things while drunk. They would prefer to believe that it was not their fault, The idea that they were not in control lets them off the hook -- but in order to bolster the belief that they were not in control it becomes necessary to continue, or even to exaggerate, the 'uncontrolled' behaviour on future drinking occassions. Of course, anyone who has been around AA for any length of time and kept their eyes and ears open knows that AA membership makes your drinking worse, and that people who have been to treatment are worse still. The idea that alcoholism is a 'disease' has been a part of our cultural mythology for a long time. (For example, Abe Lincoln compared it to a 'hereditary' illness in a speech in 1840!) But the main (if not only!) promoters of the disease theory nowadays are AA members and the treatment providers who use AA as their marketing department. As a result, we can't really dispute the disease theory without bashing AA. And learning that we are, in fact, in control, and that we are able to responsibly choose abstinence or, in some cases, return to controlled drinking, is an essential part of recovery. Therefore AA-bashing is not merely healthy, for former AA members, but is in fact a matter of life or death. Some of the other reasons for bashing AA go beyond personal recovery. A lot of folks are forced into AA as a result of legal or economic pressure. Others find themselves in AA after prolonged brainwashing in treatment centers or prisons. This is contrary to the concept of freedom of belief, which is one of the most important ideals of western civilization. The fact that AA is a religious institution makes it even worse, since our Constitution (in the USA) supposedly guarantees us freedom of religion. If AA were less influential, and if there were not a lot of social & legal pressure pushing people into it, then of course there would be a lot less need for bashing. I can't even say, personally, that I DISLIKE AA in principle, and I'm sure there are people who benefit from it. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 --- >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed >minded. How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being " closed-minded " ? I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted being " honest " . ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 --- >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed >minded. How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being " closed-minded " ? I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted being " honest " . ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 --- >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed >minded. How is talking about how we were hurt by 12-step philosophy being " closed-minded " ? I remember in treatment when I tried to tell my counselor how the concept of being " powerless " over my own behavior was against my beliefs and the teachings of my religion, and her response was " well, you need to have a more open mind about your beliefs. " This same counselor told us we had to learn to be honest about our feelings. Of course she got to decide what constituted being " honest " . ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1999 Report Share Posted September 24, 1999 --- >have you ever spoke up in an aa meeting (if and when you went)and everyone >jumped all over you because they thought you were the devil? thats what you >guys are now doing but in reverse. dont agree with our philosophy, must be >an aa'er or maybe a spy. cant be anyone we would associate with because they >dont think like us. Hey Perkins -- Um, what exactly is the " our philosophy " to which you refer? And what is the " thinking like us " ? I thought this was a list where people describe their individual opinions. We have oftentimes disagreed with one another on various things, and have related quite differing experiences. If you see us as clones of one another merely because we have in common that we are put off by 12-step ideology, then you have a very limited outlook. > > lets all forget the 12 steps instead of >dragging them around with us. if im wrong about any of this please let me >know why aa bashing is healthy or for that matter why ?bashing is healthy. > The point is, we have been HURT by our AA or other A experiences. Some of us are undergoing professional therapy to help heal from the damage. Telling us to " just forget about it and stop dragging it around " is as cruel as telling a rape victim to " just forget about it " . If you weren't hurt by your experience then I do wonder why you would be interested in this list. Remember something else: if you were able to stop attending AA as soon as you decided it wasn't for you, then you are luckier than many. I, for one, was among the many, many people who WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEAVE. I was threatened with being fired if I didn't grovel and lie by saying I believed myself " powerless " and " diseased " . Some people are threatened with prison or loss of custody of their children if they don't " prove " they're " working on recovery " by babbling Step-stuff. The fact that this psychologically damaging religion is forced on people by others with literal " power greater than themselves " is reason enough to BASH AA!! ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.