Re: The Naked Warrior: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

[Guest guest]

> Yeah, no kidding. I wish someone would do some quality

> research on whether

> huge hype is even worthwhile. I dislike it strongly, and I'd

> think that it

> turns off a fair number of people, so I'd like to find out

> that it's not

> economically wise (that it either turns off too many people

> or limits the

> long-term viability of the hyped product or trend by sparking

> backlash --

> or both) but then again maybe the more hype the better, from

> a bottom-line

> perspective.

>

It must work because it has become the Internet Way. A lot of people that I

respect think they have to use the " We're giving $1200 worth of bonuses and

discounting our product 100% if you purchase today " crap. Mercola, Tom

Venuto, Staley, Dragon Door, Ellis, et al. I also find all

of this insulting and irritating and wonder why they feel the need to market

their excellent products this way.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>This is a real problem. I am fortunate that our gym has a ton of Reebok

>steps for Step Aerobics and they stack really nicely.

I guess I could just use two stacks of books and a piece of wood. Not 100%

stable, but it should probably be enough.

>I'm surely no expert here but my inclination is that you will do better to

>go deeper rather than heavier or more reps. You want to get the full motion

>down as quickly as you are safely able rather than increasing your ability

>to do more light reps or adding weight.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm due to remove another book tomorrow anyway,

and I've been doing three days at each height, but I guess another thing I

could do on the second or third day of each cycle is to hold my raised foot

behind me with my hand. That's supposed to make it more difficult, and it

ought to help improve my balance more for when I start trying proper box

squats.

-

[Guest guest]

> or even

> the Max Kettlebells which come up to 145 lbs, I think. I'd

> like to get those at one point just to do farmer's walks with...

>

A trainer that I work with sometimes has a couple of the 145's, some 110's

(I think) and various other weights above the DD 88's. The guy can snatch

the 145's. No lie. I saw him do it. What a beast.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Gene-

>But if you're not interested in this at all, and just want to do a variety

>of exercises to stay in shape, then no, they are not necessary. However, I

>think that you'll find that there will be exercises that you could manage

>with one weight that you simply cannot do with one that is 17# heavier,

>and that is probably accentuated with 2 kettlebell exercises.

This is certainly a good argument for adjustable bells, so though I have no

clue whether I'd ever need or want to pass beyond 70# bells, I guess that's

reason to at least ask whether they'll be making larger adjustables available.

>or even the Max Kettlebells which come up to 145 lbs, I think. I'd like to

>get those at one point just to do farmer's walks with...

Holy crap! 145#? Wow. I can't even imagine how much of a mutant you'd

have to be to use those for any of the more ballistic moves. Jeez.

>In any case, if you just want to use the Dragondoor weights, it's faster

>to just pick up another pair, rather than add weights or remove weights

>from an adjustable set.

I have no particular brand loyalty to anyone -- I just want what's best and

most cost effective. So if I find I like the 44# bell, I'll definitely

consider adjustables when I'm ready to move up to heavier weights.

>Well, I think that kettlebell training works really well. Part of it is

>that I've been able to stay interested in strength and endurance training,

>pretty much for 3 years, whereas I always hated strength training

>previously, and never could keep at it.

My problem is boredom with time-consuming workouts, though a few years ago

I did stick with a routine that took up to two hours 6 days a week until I

developed serious knee problems. That's one reason I hate going to gyms --

the time it takes to get there and back is just a waste. So low-rep

high-intensity (per most of Pavel's recommendations) is a good

psychological fit with me as well as seeming beneficial in a health and

fitness sense.

-

[Guest guest]

>

> > or even

> > the Max Kettlebells which come up to 145 lbs, I think. I'd

> > like to get those at one point just to do farmer's walks with...

> >

>

> A trainer that I work with sometimes has a couple of the 145's, some 110's

> (I think) and various other weights above the DD 88's. The guy can snatch

> the 145's. No lie. I saw him do it. What a beast.

>

> Ron

>

I've heard that a few people can snatch the 145's. That's pretty amazing.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Holy crap! 145#? Wow. I can't even imagine how much of a mutant you'd

> have to be to use those for any of the more ballistic moves. Jeez.

Well, I think, for instance that 2 handed swings would be doable...but, yeah -

snatching the thing would take monstrous strength.

>

> >In any case, if you just want to use the Dragondoor weights, it's faster

> >to just pick up another pair, rather than add weights or remove weights

> >from an adjustable set.

>

> I have no particular brand loyalty to anyone -- I just want what's best and

> most cost effective. So if I find I like the 44# bell, I'll definitely

> consider adjustables when I'm ready to move up to heavier weights.

What I was trying to convey is that separate kettlebells are easier to switch

between during a workout than adjusting the weights on one kettlebell.

>

[Guest guest]

> Ah, gotcha. Sounds cool, thanks! At the moment, though, I confess

I'm a

> bit skeptical of the real value of all the extra intermediate

weights. I

> mean, sure, if I had unlimited cash, but it seems more like a marketing

> gimmick to squeeze more money out of the public. Pavel is nothing

if not

> overzealous about self-promotion and creating the maximum possible

number

> of saleable products. I'd be more pissed if his information didn't

seem to

> be of a generally high level.

,

It's funny, about Pavel, because he is actually one of the most quiet,

modest, kind, low-key guys I have *ever* met; so very unassuming. All

that Russian jargon, flashing lights, testimonials, yechh, stuff is

just so much selling hype. I think it's the DragonDoor people doing

their job and he's the brand. Not sure, though. He is, truly, a

master of sports, but it's a shame about all the other stuff. I mean,

they're just trying to make as much money as possible, right?

I imagine he chimed in about the 6-week swing thing to be supportive

to one of his players--he is very much like that--it is also a safe

thing to say. I don't know how physically co-ordinated you are, as

in, how much body awareness do you have? Are you a bit awkward and

geeky/jerky or graceful and easy-flowing? It could take someone who

hadn't ever done any sports or physical activity much up to six weeks

to get the foundation of a good swing down, for real. No shame in

that. Esp. with your connective tissue issues. I frequently train

deconditioned people, and it takes a long time to get a good, solid

and consistent pelvic thrust going (what we call " the midnight move " ).

you can do box-squats and turkish sit-ups, too, to break it up.

B.

/no worries, you are so smart you'll know what works and what doesn't

immediately, I'm sure of it. You will know, when you pump those 53's

for awhile, exactly what size you wish to move up to.

[Guest guest]

Gene-

>What I was trying to convey is that separate kettlebells are easier to

>switch between during a workout than adjusting the weights on one kettlebell.

OK, so, as an experienced kettlebell user, would you say very rapid

switching between weights is worth the extra cost of maintaining multiple

sets of bells?

-

[Guest guest]

>

> Gene-

>

> >What I was trying to convey is that separate kettlebells are easier to

> >switch between during a workout than adjusting the weights on one kettlebell.

>

> OK, so, as an experienced kettlebell user, would you say very rapid

> switching between weights is worth the extra cost of maintaining multiple

> sets of bells?

>

Well, that's totally dependent on how much you want to spend, how much space you

have, etc. I'll probably at some point get the adjustable ones, so that I can

use weights that are in between the dragon door weights. I think that it would

be kind of a pain, say, if you wanted to switch between 3 different weights

during a workout, maybe more than once, to be always adding and removing

weights. Then again, I'm not sure how easy it is to do that with these

usakettlebells.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I frequently train

> deconditioned people, and it takes a long time to get a good, solid

> and consistent pelvic thrust going (what we call " the midnight move " ).

I remember back when I first started lifting weights in early 2002 I was

completely incapable of getting my body parts to do that move volitionally.

Nothing would sync together properly. It took a good trainer who made me

slow down and gave me a bunch of retarded looking exercises that taught me

how to activate my hams and glutes that finally led to the breakthrough. By

the time I picked up my first kettlebell I already knew how to swing it...

> /no worries, you are so smart you'll know what works and what doesn't

> immediately, I'm sure of it. You will know, when you pump those 53's

> for awhile, exactly what size you wish to move up to.

I know you guys wish I would just go away, but I have to comment that I

think can do a lot of serious work with his 44 before he gets to

throwing around a 53. I'm not a weak person despite a year of no heavy

lifting to speak of and I have no real plans for my 53 for a couple of

months. Lots of work with the 26 and 35's. Maybe some leg work with the

53's.

IIRC there have been discussions on DD about the fact that it can take

months to properly condition tendons and other connective tissue.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>

> I know you guys wish I would just go away, but I have to comment that I

> think can do a lot of serious work with his 44 before he gets to

> throwing around a 53. I'm not a weak person despite a year of no heavy

> lifting to speak of and I have no real plans for my 53 for a couple of

> months. Lots of work with the 26 and 35's. Maybe some leg work with the

> 53's.

>

> IIRC there have been discussions on DD about the fact that it can take

> months to properly condition tendons and other connective tissue.

>

> Ron

>

And he should be able to judge for himself whether he can move up or not. There

is some great advice on Dragondoor. there are also people there who are totally

full of themselves.

I never did any strength training (beyond a week or so here and there in my

life). I got my first kettlebell when I was 50, a couple of years ago. I

couldn't snatch the 36 lb kettlebell for a month or so. I got a 53 lb one soon

after that (they didn't have the 44 then), and there were definitely exercises

that I could do with it. I finally snatched the 53 about 6 months after I

started.

is 6'4 " . I am about 5'6 " and when I started with kettlebells I weighted

about 140 lbs. I think that he will probably make the move easily to the 53, but

he will be able to tell relatively soon himself. Certainly he will be able to

do, e.g. 2 hand swings with the 53 without much danger.

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>A lot of people that I

>respect think they have to use the " We're giving $1200 worth of bonuses and

>discounting our product 100% if you purchase today " crap. Mercola, Tom

>Venuto, Staley, Dragon Door, Ellis, et al.

Off at a tangent, I was curious about a couple of those people, so I

googled Tom Venuto and found that he recommends all sorts of absurd dietary

practices. Why on earth do you listen to someone who believes that

saturated fat (IIRC) causes undesirable insulin spikes, just to mention one

of many bon mots I noticed?

-

[Guest guest]

-

>It's funny, about Pavel, because he is actually one of the most quiet,

>modest, kind, low-key guys I have *ever* met; so very unassuming.

Huh. He came off that way in the Russian Kettlebell Challenge DVD (which I

found somewhat frustrating, but more on that in a separate post) but in

some earlier videos he comes across differently, at least at

times. There's his " Get Pavelized! " catchphrase (former catchphrase?) and

in the Relax Into Stretch video (otherwise excellent and very helpful) he

says something to the effect of " everyone who lifts weights must do this

stretch -- and Everyone Must Lift Weights! " . Now, that's arguably true,

but it still comes off as kind of arrogant and even insufferable. I just

sort of winced and ignored it, but I can see it turning off a lot of people.

>All

>that Russian jargon, flashing lights, testimonials, yechh, stuff is

>just so much selling hype. I think it's the DragonDoor people doing

>their job and he's the brand.

I guess that could be true of some of the less savory bits of the videos

too, for that matter.

>I don't know how physically co-ordinated you are, as

>in, how much body awareness do you have? Are you a bit awkward and

>geeky/jerky or graceful and easy-flowing?

Hmm, I wouldn't call myself graceful, a trait I primarily associate with

women, ballet dancers and gymnasts, but I have good reflexes and

coordination (particularly when I'm eating a lot of liver) and when I

played regularly, I was quite good at tennis and I had a fair amount of

aptitude for kenpo lo these many years ago, so... well, I don't know

whether that answers the question.

>I frequently train

>deconditioned people, and it takes a long time to get a good, solid

>and consistent pelvic thrust going (what we call " the midnight move " ).

> you can do box-squats and turkish sit-ups, too, to break it up.

Now that just seems weird. The pelvic thrust used in the swing just didn't

look difficult at all. I mean, I'm sure that once I try to incorporate a

44# kettlebell into it it'll be harder than it looks, but I just can't

imagine taking a long time to get that down pat, and I usually have a

pretty good sense of what I can and can't do. I'd think the real

difficulty would be maintaining form once fatigue sets in, but I have no

intention of pushing myself into the danger zone, so I'm not too worried.

-

[Guest guest]

> >I frequently train

> >deconditioned people, and it takes a long time to get a good, solid

> >and consistent pelvic thrust going (what we call " the midnight move " ).

> > you can do box-squats and turkish sit-ups, too, to break it up.

>

> Now that just seems weird. The pelvic thrust used in the swing just didn't

> look difficult at all. I mean, I'm sure that once I try to incorporate a

> 44# kettlebell into it it'll be harder than it looks, but I just can't

> imagine taking a long time to get that down pat, and I usually have a

> pretty good sense of what I can and can't do. I'd think the real

> difficulty would be maintaining form once fatigue sets in, but I have no

> intention of pushing myself into the danger zone, so I'm not too worried.

>

I doubt that you will have much difficulty, and the 44# will be light enough

that even if your form isn't the greatest I really doubt that you would injure

yourself. I think that there are some people who have done nothing in the way of

physical activity in many years, and some of this extremely cautious advice

would apply, but I think that you'll see that this is indeed way over cautious

in your case.

[Guest guest]

> I know you guys wish I would just go away, but I have to comment that I

> think can do a lot of serious work with his 44 before he gets to

> throwing around a 53. I'm not a weak person despite a year of no heavy

> lifting to speak of and I have no real plans for my 53 for a couple of

> months. Lots of work with the 26 and 35's. Maybe some leg work

with the

Ron,

I agree with you, he shouldn't sell it to me--I take it back. I was

just thrilled at the idea of it as a keepsake... Further, we don't

know what condition 's shoulders are in. However,I frequently see

a lot of problems with form in people using too light of a kb, (that I

think would really aggravate 's joint problems) that are

immediately solved by increasing the weight. I think he should do

swings, squats, and variety sit-ups to begin. All leg stuff, really.

BTW I train with Mike Mahler every week; do you think the program he

gave you contributed to your injury?

B.

[Guest guest]

> Huh. He came off that way in the Russian Kettlebell Challenge DVD

(which I

> found somewhat frustrating, but more on that in a separate post) but in

> some earlier videos he comes across differently, at least at

> times. There's his " Get Pavelized! " catchphrase (former

catchphrase?) and

> in the Relax Into Stretch video (otherwise excellent and very

helpful) he

> says something to the effect of " everyone who lifts weights must do

this

> stretch -- and Everyone Must Lift Weights! " . Now, that's arguably

true,

> but it still comes off as kind of arrogant and even insufferable. I

just

> sort of winced and ignored it, but I can see it turning off a lot of

people.

It's a big turn-off for me, too. Pavel has an " on camera/off camera "

thing going on. Or, I guess, he's " in character " . I couldn't do it,

but I suppose it's one way to make riches.

> Hmm, I wouldn't call myself graceful, a trait I primarily associate

with

> women, ballet dancers and gymnasts, but I have good reflexes and

> coordination (particularly when I'm eating a lot of liver) and when I

> played regularly, I was quite good at tennis and I had a fair amount of

> aptitude for kenpo lo these many years ago, so... well, I don't know

> whether that answers the question.

Yes, it does answer it. I was trying to find out how much of a geek

you are. If you have a background in sport and martial arts, you'll

have a good amount of body awareness. Thrust away; you'll be fine.

Can't wait to see the pics.

B.

/visually oriented, apparently

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:23:38 -0800

" Berg " <bberg@...> wrote:

> The kettlebell drills I can see as being a fairly good analogy for olympic

> lifting, but...TNW?

IIRC, he says so in the beginning of TNW, but I thought he was primarily

referring to strength not explosion.

> > For anyone who can get to a gym that has an olympic platform

> > and someone who knows what they are doing (good luck on both

> > counts) there is nothing quite like the two classic lifts:

> > the clean and jerk and the snatch

>

> My gym has some bumper plates and a padded floor in the back room, so I've

> been thinking of giving this a try. How many hours of coaching does it

> typically take to get good enough to avoid hurting oneself?

I honestly don't recall how long it took me. Three months? Not sure.

Plus I was REALLY inflexible in my back and calves/ankles so I'm sure it

took longer for me than most. I couldn't believe how tight I was and how

much better I felt when I could actually do the exercises fully and correctly.

But I was working out twice a week with my trainer for about 90 minutes.

Of course it takes quite awhile to *master* the lifts

You should really have a wooden platform if you want to do the lifts

regularly but I would guess a padded floor is better than nothing.

> > (along with the king of assistance exercises, the squat)

>

> <chuckle>

>

> Who but an olympic lifter would call the squat an assistance exercise?

LOL! An assistance exercise relative to the classic lifts, meaning an

exercise that helps train you for the classic lifts. Olympic lifters are

fanatical about squatting. I love squatting. No workout is complete in

my mind without some type of squat.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

> And he should be able to judge for himself whether he can

> move up or not.

Agreed.

I have tried to present a different set of experiences and illustrate that

your great, injury free success with kettlebells may not have happened to

everyone. I think he's seen more than enough throughout this thread to work

himself as quickly or as slowly as he needs to.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> However,I frequently see

> a lot of problems with form in people using too light of a kb, (that I

> think would really aggravate 's joint problems) that are

> immediately solved by increasing the weight.

Yes, agreed. I hadn't really thought much about it because I've been trying

to focus on getting him to take his time, but I have found personally that

if the weight is too light it's hard to get the form correct. That's why I

think his 44 is perfect for getting started on swings and gently working his

way up the ladder.

> BTW I train with Mike Mahler every week; do you think the program he

> gave you contributed to your injury?

Unfortunately, yes. I have almost complete certainty that Mikes' program

_caused_ my injury. This is a tough one because I like Mike a lot. My wife

and I did one of his workshops up in Northern Virginia last year. I was set

to go do another one when my right shoulder broke. After seeing the actual

damage inside the shoulder and being able to compare that with what the

surgeon found in my left shoulder last year I am certain that I pulled my

biceps tendon out by doing heavy, high volume swings with a weight that was

light enough for the rest of my body but way too heavy for that part.

I haven't decided how to handle it yet. I'm not the suing type and even if

I were I don't think I could prove it in court. I recognize that I'm the

one who chose to do the workout and I did that based on my best knowledge

from reading lots of sources in which the problem I had was never mentioned.

On the other hand, I clearly went to someone who presents themselves as an

expert and asked them for help and then specifically followed their

recommendations. At the least Mike needs to know what happened to me so

that he can modify his recommendations for other 40 year old men who may not

have taken care of their bodies prior to coming to him.

I'll figure out how I want to handle this soon. Fact is, I would take

another one of his workshops in a heartbeat. He's a great teacher.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Off at a tangent, I was curious about a couple of those people, so I

> googled Tom Venuto and found that he recommends all sorts of

> absurd dietary

> practices. Why on earth do you listen to someone who believes that

> saturated fat (IIRC) causes undesirable insulin spikes, just

> to mention one

> of many bon mots I noticed?

Great question.

You guys don't know my story because I haven't really told it here yet.

I've had multiple phases in my health transformation that have pretty much

gone like this:

1. Quit smoking and drinking alcohol and caffeine in Sep 2001

2. Lose weight by religiously doing the Zone diet and BFL exercise

from Jan to Oct 2002.

3. Become obsessed with bodybuilding and gaining back some of the

mass that I lost from losing my weight too fast -- Oct 2002 through Nov

2003.

4. Massively overtrain and discover that despite eating very well I

still was not feeling healthy. Focus shifts to health and repairing my

damaged body. Nov 2003 through present.

There was a lot that went on before that including losing 40 pounds by doing

the Zone diet in 1995/6 but I'm pretty much where I'm at now due to the

events of the past 3 and a half years.

So I was introduced to Tom Venuto during cycle number 3. I found that his

e-book consolidated all of the knowledge that I had gained about how to lose

weight down to very low body fat levels very well and actually explained

some things that had confused me and stopped me from getting the precise

results that I wanted. I also decided that he is a straight shooter and is

trying to make a living promoting what he truly believes and has

experienced. Truth be told I hadn't really thought about the specific

dietary recommendations that he makes in a long time. IIRC, he's pretty

Zone like for normal daily life and then goes low carb during fat cutting

cycles. Tom comes by his mistakes honestly, I believe. You don't have to

look too hard to find scientific support for the nutritional principles he

espouses. That we both agree that he's wrong doesn't reduce my respect for

what he has accomplished.

Somebody (?) wrote the following on your Ori H. thread and I thought

it applied to Tom V.

" I think Ori is on to a good thing, both

for social and metabolic reasons,

but still he doesn't have a NT/Price

approach at the micro-level, and so

we need to adjust things accordingly

when using his concepts. "

I no longer consider Tom's book to be about health, even though I'm sure

that he does, but it's still the one resource I would recommend to someone

who wanted to get their body fat levels down to the floor while maintaining

muscle mass. I managed to get to 7% using techniques similar to his and,

when the time is right, I'm going to use them again -- modified to NN

principles -- to get down there again. Just cause I'm vain.

Ron

[Guest guest]

-

>I was trying to find out how much of a geek

>you are.

Are there limits? <g>

-

[Guest guest]

> I no longer consider Tom's book to be about health, even though I'm sure

> that he does, but it's still the one resource I would recommend to

someone

> who wanted to get their body fat levels down to the floor while

maintaining

> muscle mass. I managed to get to 7% using techniques similar to his

and,

> when the time is right, I'm going to use them again -- modified to NN

> principles -- to get down there again. Just cause I'm vain.

>

Ron,

I went to look at his website and my head started hurting. Do you

recommend his e-book? Or another book of his? Will you share some

info with me?

B.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I went to look at his website and my head started hurting.

LOL. The hype just makes you cringe. Tom has recently started learning NLP

and he's a little out of control with it.

>Do you

> recommend his e-book? Or another book of his? Will you share some

> info with me?

Yes, his e-book. Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle. It's big and thick if you

print it off and not super well written but it does give you all the

information that you need to cut body fat.

I'll be happy to help you in any way that I can. To sum up Tom's

methodology you keep your caloric intake relatively high and use moderate

intensity aerobic exercise to burn the fat off. You still lift during a fat

cutting cycle, but the emphasis is on a _lot_ of treadmill and bike time.

You have to count calories, also, which can be a bear if you've never done

that before. His methods aren't easy, but unless your body is

dysfunctional, they work.

Let me know how else I can help. I've done most of the things he

recommends, so if you get stuck feel free to ask.

I'm going to give a plug for his new e-book, _Fit over 40_. The promo for

it makes it look like one of the most valuable books I have ever seen in

terms of showing the nuts and bolts of REAL transformations.

http://www.fitover40.com/?hop=cfinn I refuse to buy the book because I've

discovered that e-books are fantastically expensive to buy, but I'm going to

try to talk him into getting it published for real.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

>

> I'll be watching the kettlebell DVD shortly, so I guess I'll

> be able to see for myself, but how hard are kettlebells on

> the joints? Slow, controlled heavy lifts seem to work fine

> for me, but I'm concerned about some of the more rapid moves

> kettlebells are supposed to be used for.

One problem that no one else seems to have mentioned in the tendency for

swings and snatches (particularly the descent) to put undue stress on the

tendons connecting the biceps to the elbows. Inflammation in this area seems

to be a common problem for beginners. I had no problems with the 16 kg bell

(doing up to 30 snatches per side), but when I moved up to the 24 kg bell,

it got so bad that I basically had to give them up. You might be okay with

the 44 lb bell, but if you notice any pain in this area, you should ice it

immediately and cut back on the weight (adjustable dumbbells are the poor

man's kettlebells) for a couple of weeks. Actually, six weeks of light

swings doesn't sound so bad after all.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Berg " <bberg@c...>

wrote:

Actually, six weeks of light

> swings doesn't sound so bad after all.

Ron wins the thread.

Terea B.