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Re: The Naked Warrior: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

By Guest guest, in Health, Medicine and Natural Healing 05

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Posted

> RE: The Naked Warrior: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

>Oh, well, did I say 6'4 " ? I meant, uh, 6'4 " in, uh, Romulan units, which

>translates to 8'9 " and 400# of pure muscle here on Earth. Gotta remember

>your units. ;->

Ri..i..i..i..ght...*Romulan* units. How dense of me to assume Earth units.

My bad.

Heh, forget Alien vs. Predator, we've got Big Daddy Romulan vs. the

Implodinator.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

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Posted

> Heh, forget Alien vs. Predator, we've got Big Daddy Romulan vs. the

> Implodinator.

Nice one, Suze. Had a major LOL with this one.

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Posted

> ++++++ B.:

> This thread is worthless without pics!

I knew this would come up...again. I do plan to post " before " and

" after " pics, but my vanity (which has no limits, apparently) requires

me to wait until I have the " after " picture handy. It *might* hurt my

ego to post a nasty picture of my bum and then have nothing better to

put up later on. Of course, there's always Photoshop!

Plus, my husband's been away on an extended business trip and I

haven't had the courage to ask anyone else to take the picture yet.

We're also still waiting for Chris' leg pictures, aren't we?

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Posted

> > >What weight did you choose?

> >

> > 44#.

> >

>

> that is a tough weight to start with unless you are quite strong to

begin with.

Really? I think he'll sling it with no trouble at all. He ate 0.8#

of raw liver and a pint of cream for breakfast, for the love of, uh,

whatever.

B.

/, lemme know when you wanna sell it, please, cuz I need one

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Posted

hmmm - this just showed up. I posted it hours ago, and corrected myself

subsequent to this post.

>

>

> >

> > Gene-

> >

> > >What weight did you choose?

> >

> > 44#.

> >

>

> that is a tough weight to start with unless you are quite strong to begin

with.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <HTML><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC " -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN "

> " http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd " ><BODY><FONT

> FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " >

> <B>IMPORTANT ADDRESSES</B>

> <UL>

> <LI><B><A

HREF= " / " >NATIVE

> NUTRITION</A></B> online</LI>

> <LI><B><A HREF= " http://onibasu.com/ " >SEARCH</A></B> the entire message

archive

> with Onibasu</LI>

> </UL></FONT>

> <PRE><FONT FACE= " monospace " SIZE= " 3 " ><B><A

> HREF= " mailto: -owner " >LIST OWNER:</A></B>

> Idol

> <B>MODERATORS:</B> Heidi Schuppenhauer

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Posted

>

> >And I never found joint supplements to make the slightest bit of difference.

>

> Have you ever tried a quality chondroitin sulfate? That makes a lot of

> difference for me, though it's unfortunately expensive.

maybe not. I'm still open minded. Recommend one.

>

> >Right- but I'm not convinced that the number of reps that you do in

> >kettlebell sport are harmful that, say, the repetitive stress that you do

> >in marathon running can be harmful. And generally you're not going to be

> >doing anything approaching the numbers that you mention above. But Pavel

> >generally recommends a very low number - like up to about 5. And I

> >honestly wonder whether that is the best method for developing endurance

> >with kettlebells.

>

> Kettlebells seem a little odd to me in this respect because they come in

> just a few weights, but Tsatsouline's recommendations seem to vary in the

> rep department. For press-type lifts, he does say stick to 5 or less, but

> then he says snatches, cleans and jerks can involve even hundreds of reps.

Right - but elsewhere (I know I've seen him say this on the Dragondoor forum) he

stresses that he prefers fewer reps, even with the ballistic exercises. My

recollection when he mentions the large numbers of reps in the book or video is

that he is referring to the fact that some people do these.

the thing, also, to realize about the competitors who do large numbers of reps

(with 72 lbs!) is that their movements are extremely relaxed and economical. I

would aspire to that without much fear that their is much risk of injury with

proper form, though of course is really no chance that I would ever achieve that

level.

>

> My understanding from reading him and other sources is that endurance is

> best acquired by a combination of low-rep max-strength training and

> endurance exercise, but I don't know. I'll be curious to find out how

> kettelebells fit into this.

>

>

> -

>

I think that there were some studies, quoted by Mel Siff in his Supertraining

book that indicated that to develop endurance, the best methodology was large

numbers of reps to fatigue. This, of course, does not contraindicate doing low

rep max strength training also.

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Posted

,

_Beyond Bodybuilding_ seems like it is both a compilation of previously

released information and new stuff. Some details about the contents are

available on dragondoor.com, and since you have more of his books than I do,

you'd be

able to better judge than me.

Chris

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Posted

wrote:

>> And I'm 6'4 and fairly broad-shouldered, though I can't say

>>I'm anything like pure muscle.

Suze responded:

>A mere dwarf compared to Gene at 7'3 " , 310 lbs. Or was it 7'5 " , 325 lbs? In

>any case he could probably bench you.

Suze,

That would be no honorable feat. I'm only 5'7 " , and I could bench an

*obese* person who's 6'4 " . A 6'4 " person with a body mass index of 30

(officially

obese) weighs 246 lbs, and I can bench 260 at the moment. Gene who's a full

two feet taller than me, and actually 350 lbs from what I remember, should be

able to bench several s.

Chris

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Posted

Gene wrote:

>I really don't think that it is necessary to do 6 weeks of only swings

>before one starts to practice the

>other exercises, nor do I think that Pavel would say that this is necessary.

>Of course, one of the videos

>would be mandatory, but I think that the view that you are expressing is

>overly cautious. I don't think that

>there would be many experienced people on the forum that would agree with

>that point of view.

____

I also don't think Pavel would say so, because if he would, he'd have done

it in the books and videos, I would think.

I don't have enough experience to give this as advice, but this is what I

did, and have never gotten hurt with them so far:

First, I read _The Russian Kettlebel Challenge_ and watched the DVD several

times. Additionally, I read and watched the appropriate sections again

before beginning any new exercise. I started out with a 53-lb kettlebell, with

two-armed swings and one-armed swings. IIRC, I did both in the first day, and

I think cleans too. It took me a couple weeks before I was able to do

military presses, and I may have waited till then to do clean and jerks.

Snatches I was much more cautious with. I didn't introduce them until my

second kettlebell cycle, and I did them for a week or so with dumbells first.

I used light weight and worked my way up. I didn't attempt to do them with

my kettlebell until I could do several with a 60-lb dumbell comfortably and

with good form.

Chris

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Posted

The first one 'The Russian Kettlebell Challenge' is what I used, along with the

book. A lot of people recommend the video and book for 'From Russia with Tough

Love' (I think I got that name right). I have the book, and while it is

marketed towards women, it is good for men also. It's probably even better for

beginners, having a wider variety of excercises and more detailed explanations

and tips, as I recall.

I'd say that a book + video is probably best, but if you choose one, go for the

video - it's easier to pick up proper form from a video, I think.

I haven't been keeping up with Dragondoor in the last few months - I'm not sure

if there are any new beginning books/videos that have been released.

>

>

> On Wednesday, March 9, 2005, at 09:43 AM, Gene Schwartz wrote:

>

> > I certainly agree that it wouldn't be good to set up a complicated

> > workout

> > at first, but there are certainly

> > several exercises on the beginning tapes that one could start out with

> > in

> > the first few days.

> >

> >

> Which video would you recommend as a first purchase.

>

>

>

>

> Sandy

>

>

>

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In a message dated 3/9/2005 6:07:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

>I realize experience won't necessarily generalize well, but I'm wondering

>if you can give me an idea of what to expect. I'm starting with 1 44#

>bell. Is it more likely that I'll want a second 44# first, or that I'll be

>jumping to the next weight up first? Roughly how long do you suppose that

>jump will take? And is there any need to keep the smaller bells after

>progressing to larger ones? I'd sort of figured on partially financing

>upgrades by selling each weight as I outgrow it, but I suppose there are

>other uses for them. Workable, or not?

_____

Well when got my first kettlebell, the more precise sizes didn't yet exist.

Also, I've used kettlebells for 2-4 week cycles basically whenever I hit

plateaus at the gym, whereas you, apparently, are going to use them for longer

periods since you hate gyms.

So, I imagine that, as said, relatively speaking, you'll outgrow the

44# very fast, assuming you can handle it well to begin with (which seems like

a good assumption to me.) I think this is just the nature of any training--

your progress is very fast when you begin, and then slows over time. So

you'll probably jump to the next k-bell much faster than you jump from the

second to the third.

On the other hand, one of the great things about Pavel's k-bell workouts is

that he gives you so many ways to make each exercise harder. So, for

example, once you are doing snatches to a respectable rep number, you can start

doing deadweight snatches, etc, which I find are both much harder and also, it

seems, shift some emphasis to the abs.

I would *guess* that you'd be able to stretch out your current k-bell to at

least two months. I was told on the dragondoor.com forum that when I get a

new one I should just do two-armed swings with it at first, and use the 53# for

the other exercise-- then again, that was when the next size was 72#, and I

still haven't gotten a new one! For financial reasons only.

There are exercises where multiple k-bells are needed, including ones where

different sizes are needed, so you might want to keep them all, but others are

on the list who actually have more than one k-bell so they'd be able to

comment on the relative use of those exercises. At least, though, you wouldn't

want to sell off a previous one until after you've had the new one for a

little bit, so you can use the heavier one for easier exercises and the lighter

for harder exercises.

Chris

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Gene-

>maybe not. I'm still open minded. Recommend one.

The last time I used chondroitin sulfate, I got the best results with the

LEF's formulation.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00364.html

Unfortunately, now that everyone's (mostly) declaring all their fillers,

it's clear that theirs isn't so desirable. In addition to chondroitin

sulfate, it contains " dicalcium phosphate, cellulose, stearic acid,

croscarmellose sodium, magnesium stearate, silica. " Bleck.

I've become very disenchanted with Pure Encapsulations, as their products

seem to be either less potent than they're rated or compromised by the wood

filler they use, which itself is extremely undesirable.

Dr. Ron Schmid sells a filler-free chondroitin, but it's in a blend with

glucosamine sulfate, which may not be worthwhile. It's also quite

expensive, at $46.95 for a bottle of 180 capsules. The bottle provides 54g

of chondroitin sulfate, so it's $0.87/g plus shipping. Then again, the

non-member LEF price isn't much better ($0.83/g plus shipping) and it has a

bunch of nasty fillers, though no glucosamine sulfate. (Their member price

works out to $0.62/g plus shipping.)

http://www.drrons.com/MSM-glucosamin_pain_relief.html

I haven't tried Dr. Schmid's, so I can't recommend it from personal

experience. That said, in light of the filler issue, I'm not sure what the

best chondroitin supplement is.

>Right - but elsewhere (I know I've seen him say this on the Dragondoor

>forum) he stresses that he prefers fewer reps, even with the ballistic

>exercises. My recollection when he mentions the large numbers of reps in

>the book or video is that he is referring to the fact that some people do

>these.

Hmm, well, the video is arriving tomorrow, so I'll be able to answer that soon.

>I think that there were some studies, quoted by Mel Siff in his

>Supertraining book that indicated that to develop endurance, the best

>methodology was large numbers of reps to fatigue. This, of course, does

>not contraindicate doing low rep max strength training also.

By fatigue do you mean failure?

-

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Posted

Chris-

>Some details about the contents are

>available on dragondoor.com, and since you have more of his books than I

>do, you'd be

>able to better judge than me.

The thing I just saw made it seem like a compendium of preexisting articles

with some additional photos and illustrations.

-

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Posted

Chris-

>I don't have enough experience to give this as advice, but this is what I

>did, and have never gotten hurt with them so far:

I realize experience won't necessarily generalize well, but I'm wondering

if you can give me an idea of what to expect. I'm starting with 1 44#

bell. Is it more likely that I'll want a second 44# first, or that I'll be

jumping to the next weight up first? Roughly how long do you suppose that

jump will take? And is there any need to keep the smaller bells after

progressing to larger ones? I'd sort of figured on partially financing

upgrades by selling each weight as I outgrow it, but I suppose there are

other uses for them. Workable, or not?

-

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Posted

>

> >I think that there were some studies, quoted by Mel Siff in his

> >Supertraining book that indicated that to develop endurance, the best

> >methodology was large numbers of reps to fatigue. This, of course, does

> >not contraindicate doing low rep max strength training also.

>

> By fatigue do you mean failure?

>

No. That's not what I meant, and, in addition, I don't remember the details of

what I read. On the other hand - I don't think that it is as counterproductive

going to failure with ballistic exercises as it is with grinding exercises like

presses, etc. Although, I guess, some people will argue that it's good to go to

failure even with the grinding exercises, if you train less often.

One of the tricks to getting high reps in the competition kettlebell exercises

is to rest during the 10 minutes you have to complete your repetitions. In the

jerk, for instance, the favored resting position is with the kettlebells kind of

resting on your stomach, and standing in a postion where you lean back a bit.

Pavel advises against this, but if you watch ANY film of competitive kettlebell

jerking, they all lean back. I'm not convinced that it is harmful if your

technique is good. In any case, it is difficult indeed to learn to relax and

rest with the kettlebells when you're fatigued, and then to generate more

repetitions.

I can't speak with any authority at all, but it seems to me that the skills

involved in competitive kettlebell lifting must be beneficial to general

endurance.

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Posted

> Chris-

>

> >I don't have enough experience to give this as advice, but this is

what I

> >did, and have never gotten hurt with them so far:

>

> I realize experience won't necessarily generalize well, but I'm

wondering

> if you can give me an idea of what to expect. I'm starting with 1 44#

> bell. Is it more likely that I'll want a second 44# first, or that

I'll be

> jumping to the next weight up first? Roughly how long do you

suppose that

> jump will take? And is there any need to keep the smaller bells after

> progressing to larger ones? I'd sort of figured on partially financing

> upgrades by selling each weight as I outgrow it, but I suppose there

are

> other uses for them. Workable, or not?

,

Using two kettlebells is the way to go. You will quickly outgrow the

44# so I say get the form down using it, then spring for two 53's. As

for me buying one off eBay, that won't do; I want *your* kettlebell.

B.

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Posted

>

> Chris-

>

> >I don't have enough experience to give this as advice, but this is what I

> >did, and have never gotten hurt with them so far:

>

> I realize experience won't necessarily generalize well, but I'm wondering

> if you can give me an idea of what to expect. I'm starting with 1 44#

> bell. Is it more likely that I'll want a second 44# first, or that I'll be

> jumping to the next weight up first? Roughly how long do you suppose that

> jump will take? And is there any need to keep the smaller bells after

> progressing to larger ones? I'd sort of figured on partially financing

> upgrades by selling each weight as I outgrow it, but I suppose there are

> other uses for them. Workable, or not?

>

> -

Definitely not Chris...but,

At your size, the 44 should be relatively easy, and probably the major obstacles

at first will be technical. Some exercises should be very easy - a 2 handed

swing with 44# should be easy for you - though doing it for several minutes

should prove taxing. The problem with only one weight is that there are some

exercises where you can handle heavier weights (swings, say), and some where

it's harder - snatches, say. But, it's also great to have 2 of each weight,

since it allows you to do some exercises like the 2 kb jerk, which are quite

good.

I'd say that, since you're probably going to outgrow the 44 pretty quickly, get

a 53 next, and then get a 2nd 53 after that. But, you'll probably get a pretty

good idea as to which exercises you like, and whether you want the flexibility

that multiple weights will give you over the flexibility that 2 of a given

weight will give you.

I think that you'll always find a use for the lighter weights. Even though I

don't train too much with the 36# kbs, I still find them invaluable for warming

up, or sometimes doing an additional light set when I'm fatigued.

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Posted

> I realize experience won't necessarily generalize well, but I'm

wondering

> if you can give me an idea of what to expect. I'm starting with 1 44#

> bell. Is it more likely that I'll want a second 44# first, or that

I'll be

> jumping to the next weight up first? Roughly how long do you

suppose that

> jump will take? And is there any need to keep the smaller bells after

> progressing to larger ones? I'd sort of figured on partially financing

> upgrades by selling each weight as I outgrow it, but I suppose there

are

> other uses for them. Workable, or not?

,

This site sells kettlebells for a much better price than Dragondoor,

although they don't make them in the standard weights, it seems.

http://www.power-systems.com/

B.

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Posted

-

>Using two kettlebells is the way to go. You will quickly outgrow the

>44# so I say get the form down using it, then spring for two 53's.

Sounds like a plan! I have space for single-kettlebell exercises, but I

guess getting the form down will give me time to make room for dual-bell

moves. I hope.

>and if you purchase

>your 53# from DragonDoor I can get you a discount, if you're interested.

Sure I'm interested! I'd definitely appreciate that, but how would it work

with you being on the opposite coast?

>As

>for me buying one off eBay, that won't do; I want *your* kettlebell.

Then yours it shall be. I just don't know when. <g>

-

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Gene-

>One of the tricks to getting high reps in the competition kettlebell

>exercises is to rest during the 10 minutes you have to complete your

>repetitions. In the jerk, for instance, the favored resting position is

>with the kettlebells kind of resting on your stomach, and standing in a

>postion where you lean back a bit. Pavel advises against this, but if you

>watch ANY film of competitive kettlebell jerking, they all lean back.

Well, I don't know. I don't have the anatomical expertise to be sure, but

leaning back strikes me as very dangerous, regardless of whether it's

common practice. (Plenty of bad things are common practice, so by itself

that means nothing to me.)

>I can't speak with any authority at all, but it seems to me that the

>skills involved in competitive kettlebell lifting must be beneficial to

>general endurance.

Oh, I'm sure they are, but a significant component of endurance at any

specific task is skill acquisition at that specific task, so I don't know

what the percentage would be, and whether general endurance would be

better-served by other exercises if kettlebell lifting isn't one's end in

itself.

-

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Posted

Gene-

>I'd say that, since you're probably going to outgrow the 44 pretty

>quickly, get a 53 next, and then get a 2nd 53 after that. But, you'll

>probably get a pretty good idea as to which exercises you like, and

>whether you want the flexibility that multiple weights will give you over

>the flexibility that 2 of a given weight will give you.

Oh, I can see the rationale for having two of them. I don't have a problem

with that. I'd just rather spend the least possible amount of money

without hampering my progress.

>I think that you'll always find a use for the lighter weights. Even though

>I don't train too much with the 36# kbs, I still find them invaluable for

>warming up, or sometimes doing an additional light set when I'm fatigued.

Since there's so little difference between the 44# and the 53#, though, and

since it sounds like I can avoid getting a second 44#, I'm not sure how

useful it'd be. I guess I could see the lighter ones being more useful if

I progress to the 72#, for example, since there's a 19# difference instead

of a 9# difference. But still, it'd be awfully tempting to partially

finance the 72#s by selling the 53#s. I guess I won't have to worry about

that for awhile, though!

-

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Chris-

>There are exercises where multiple k-bells are needed, including ones where

>different sizes are needed,

Oh cripes, really? Different sizes?

>At least, though, you wouldn't

>want to sell off a previous one until after you've had the new one for a

>little bit, so you can use the heavier one for easier exercises and the

>lighter

>for harder exercises.

That makes sense.

For all that Pavel touts kettlebells for their supposed cheapness, though,

they're not exactly inexpensive. I know, a reasonably spiffy barbell setup

costs more, but still, it's not like kettlebells are all that affordable

either.

-

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Posted

> >and if you purchase

> >your 53# from DragonDoor I can get you a discount, if you're

interested.

>

> Sure I'm interested! I'd definitely appreciate that, but how would

it work

> with you being on the opposite coast?

,

I'll order from Dragondoor and give them your shipping addy--unless

you find something you like at Power Systems. Re: jumping up to a

72#kb, I'm sure there's a 63#. Two 53's ought to keep you busy for

quite a while, though.

B.

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RE: The Naked Warrior: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

Gene-

>One of the tricks to getting high reps in the competition kettlebell

>exercises is to rest during the 10 minutes you have to complete your

>repetitions. In the jerk, for instance, the favored resting position is

>with the kettlebells kind of resting on your stomach, and standing in a

>postion where you lean back a bit. Pavel advises against this, but if you

>watch ANY film of competitive kettlebell jerking, they all lean back.

" Well, I don't know. I don't have the anatomical expertise to be sure, but

leaning back strikes me as very dangerous, regardless of whether it's

common practice. (Plenty of bad things are common practice, so by itself

that means nothing to me.) "

It certainly isn't essential that you really try to get high reps in the

snatch and jerk, so

if you are nervous about any of these aspects, then use Pavel's form. But, I

have a history of

lower back problems, and I haven't had an issue with leaning back in the

jerk. I have yet to hear that kettlebell competitors (some of whom are in

their 60's) hurt their back leaning back doing the jerk. The only time I've

hurt

my back with kettlebells was being careless with the between the legs pass

(or whatever he calls it). You must

tighten your abdominals when you actually pass the kettlebell. I was

careless with the 72 pounder...on the other hand,

swings are great for your back.

I also think that some of the assistance exercises, e.g. holding a

kettlebell for time in that leaning back position, help strengthen the back.

>I can't speak with any authority at all, but it seems to me that the

>skills involved in competitive kettlebell lifting must be beneficial to

>general endurance.

" Oh, I'm sure they are, but a significant component of endurance at any

specific task is skill acquisition at that specific task, so I don't know

what the percentage would be, and whether general endurance would be

better-served by other exercises if kettlebell lifting isn't one's end in

itself. "

I agree with you 100%, but I think that sometimes the psychological factor

is overlooked - when you

concentrate on the particular skill set involved in a sport, I think that

sometimes you are more motivated,

and that motivation leads to greater performance, even if that particular

skill set isn't the most efficient at applying

to general fitness. Plus, you can just feel how great some exercises

are....I do highly recommend working up to 25+ snatches, for instance, or

eventually practicing the 2 kettlebell long cycle jerk. But there are of

course other great exercises. Walking up a steep hill with a 100 lb medicine

ball is something that you should try once in a lifetime...

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Posted

>I think that you'll always find a use for the lighter weights. Even though

>I don't train too much with the 36# kbs, I still find them invaluable for

>warming up, or sometimes doing an additional light set when I'm fatigued.

" Since there's so little difference between the 44# and the 53#, though, and

since it sounds like I can avoid getting a second 44#, I'm not sure how

useful it'd be. I guess I could see the lighter ones being more useful if

I progress to the 72#, for example, since there's a 19# difference instead

of a 9# difference. But still, it'd be awfully tempting to partially

finance the 72#s by selling the 53#s. I guess I won't have to worry about

that for awhile, though! "

I would recommend that you NOT sell the 53s, and that you not even think

about which you sell and which you won't until

you actually start working out with them. There is value in doing heavier

sets, lighter sets, moving up and down

by as little as this 9#, etc. If you really get into them, like I did, who

knows what you'll do :)

I have a small San Francisco apartment, and somehow I have 2 36s, 2 44s, 2

53s, 1 72, 2 88s, a 100 lb medicine ball, an 80 pound medicine ball, and a

60 lb medicine ball. I love the 88s. I'm really not that strong, and I'm

pretty small, but the 88s are great for grabbing and just walking around

the apartment, or holding for time, or doing swings with.

Though I just working out again this week after 3 months, and everything

feels heavy, even the 44.

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