Re: ultimate exercise solution

[Guest guest]

I think that may have been the case at one time, Janet, but now it has more to do with the purpose for which the line is bred. The breeder we bought Radar from had lived in England and brought all of his breeding stock back with him. They were all field trial competitors in England. They are keen, hyper types with the flash and dash to win in field trial competition, and totally focused on doing a job. Robin, on the other hand, while he goes back to English stock several generations back, was bred for looks and disposition and is laid back. In obedience classes as a puppy, he would go to sleep if not working, while Radar would be watching the instructor while she was working another puppy, and obeying her instructions behind her back. Robin, who is less "English" has the massive head and proper otter tail so looks more stocky, but Radar is more muscular, in part because he uses himself so much more. They are the same height and almost the same weight, but Robin looks more stocky. I think that you can find blocky and stocky in English and American lines and the opposite as well. The truth is, there are more Labs registered in the United States each year than any other breed. With so many, and with so many indiscriminant backyard breeders, there are tons of types and subtypes and lots of registered dogs that only look vaguely like the breed. The amazing thing is that the nonaggressive disposition seems to predominate. Many are hyper as a border collie, but I have hardly ever encountered an aggressive one, and then it is almost always fear aggression.

My Jeb became man aggressive for a short while after the hurricane, and we never really figured it out, but it has gone away, thank goodness. Our home is a bit isolated and I love the deterrent factor of barking dogs, but do not want those barks backed up by bites.

W

Re: Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/5/2008 7:57:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, spamthekat writes:

love labs, my sister has a huge lab, he's a big buffoon and loveable

I am certainly not a lab expert but I used to have a neighbor who had one that I was absolutely in love with. He was a beautiful coal black and not at all hyper, very sweet natured. My neighbor said he was so laid back because he was an English lab and that many of the American lines were much more leggy and hyper. Is that so ?

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

Truffles! What a wonderful name.

Re: Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/5/2008 11:18:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

Yes, I own that movie and love that little dog

,

that little dog looked just like my first Griff, Tessa, who died very unexpectedly at the all too young age of five. I was heartbroken. I was soooooooo blessed that I found a puppy soon after (you have to get a on a waiting list to get a Griff from a good breeder) and Truffles has turned out to be the love of my life.

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

In 2003, when we were capturing and spaying/neutering the feral cats, we had a cat have kittens in out hay shed. We took the kittens just after they opened their eyes and bottle raised them on KMR. We reasoned that if we left them much longer with their mother they would become too wild to place. One became a horror story when spayed with complication after complication (suture line herniation, etc) costing a bunch in money and more in grief. She was an enchanting kitten and burning with life and I still tear up thinking of her. We eventually exhausted all options and she had to be euthanized, but her two siblings and another rescue cat from that same spring are our beloved housecats.

I am big on neutering and maintaining feral colonies. Taming a feral cat is quite a project, and I admire you for taking on the task Elaine.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

I haven't had a dog for the same reason. I used to work ten-hour days, plus commute time, plus whatever else I was doing away from home. it didn't leave the time a dog needs and deserves. I miss having one.

I work with a cat rescue group. Each weekend we set up cages at a local pet store to try to get them adopted. They come from the pound hours or minutes before they are scheduled to be killed. I don't think many people know that many animal shelters kill cats (I don't know what the rules are for dogs) after keeping them only 3-5 days. It's horrendous. Just unbelievable. I once had a cat that ran away and I kept going to the pound to see if she was there. It was hard because I didn't know when she may be picked up so I didn't know when the three days would start. More recently I found out that if they think a cat is "unsociable" they won't even put it out in view! My last cat was "unsociable" and I was asked to take her by someone in the rescue group because that person felt this was a good cat that should be allowed to live. I took her and she was a great cat. She had her moments, but once thosewere understood (by me), I learned to work around them. She had so much personality and was beautiful. Young, athletic, strong, she suddenly died. It's thought she had a blood clot, probably in her spine. I know I wrote about it when it happened. it was so shocking.

Other cats are caught from the feral colonies and tamed, then put up for adoption. It's heart wrenching to see these animals go without homes, and to think of all those who can't be saved or are living outside on this very cold, rainy night.

California had attempted to pass a law in which all owners of cats and dogs would have to spay/neuter them. It didn't pass and I'm kind of glad it didn't, but if people knew the fate of these animals, surely they would spay/neuter their animals voluntarily. There are so many organizations that will help with the cost. In this area, ferals/strays are done for free and anyone can get their cat done for only $20.

Okay, it's past midnight. I'm going to get off this soapbox and go hug my kitty (this is one of the two ferals I got after mine other one died. One of the ferals got adopted).

good night.

Elaine

we have always had cats. I became allergic to them after having my second son, so they live outside, but we still have them. At the present time we only have one...he is ugly and kind of dumb...we had him since he was tiny, tiny....he is 13 now.

He has a fetish about toes and earlobes. He was weaned too early apparently and has the fixation his whole life...we always tell him no bites and he is pretty good but it is funny if we don't keep an eye on him with bare feet in the summer! Especially when we have guests!

We have had a manx who liked to play with water. We have had a silly cat who washed his food in the water dish like a racoon and ate it off his paw. We had one who weighed about 4 to 5 pounds her whole life and would kill rattlesnakes and half grown jack rabbits bigger then she was and drag them home to her kittens. I love cats. I love dogs as well but have so little spare time I feel it would be selfish to have one. dogs require so much more then cats do. We also have chickens. My grand children love the chickens and would live with them I believe if they could. When clients come over with their children they all want to see the chickens also. I have even caught my elderly neighbor in the back out there talking to them! lol I think they just somehow appeal to people.

Jane

..

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[Guest guest]

The Lab forum I am involved with has breeders from California, Janet, and they were solidly against the law. Most responsible breeders, as I am sure you know, will not sell a puppy to anyone except another breeder with anything but a limited registration which does not allow that dogs offspring to be registered. That said, they felt that the law was going to put too many hardships and restrictions on legitimate breeders. I do not remember the details, but I think the breeders, in large part, derailed the process.

My local humane society, where I would like to volunteer, told me that I am not eligible to be a volunteer because I have one dog that is not neutered. It is Robin who is jointly owned with his breeder. His sire is an American and Canadian champion and was the #2 chocolate Lab in the nation when he was being shown. Robin was the only male in the litter and Anne wanted to use him at some point. He has a deformed paw from an injury in the first few days of his life, so was not a show prospect. My dogs are safely confined, so indiscriminate breeding is hardly an issue, but the powers that be at the shelter do not see it my way. It is a wonderful organization, and has a super spay/neuter program (wish it had been in place when I was doing all that spaying in 2003) and spotless facilities, great programs. Sorry I could not be a part of it. We have no Lab rescue program in Mississippi, so that is I what I should be engaged in, I guess.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/6/2008 3:14:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, elrolegmail writes:

California had attempted to pass a law in which all owners of cats and dogs would have to spay/neuter them. It didn't pass and I'm kind of glad it didn't,

Elaine,

Since this problem is so huge, why are you glad that the Healthy Pets law did not pass? ( I am not in California but I like to hear everyone's thoughts) It's being reworked by the way and will be reintroduced.

I am an avid member of HSUS so I follow these things lol

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

my cat caught a mouse in the condo and had a wonderful time playing with it and she cried when it stopped moving. we threw it out and she cried and looked for another one. cyndy jjsmth@... wrote: we have always had cats. I became allergic to them after having my second son, so they live outside, but we still have them. At the present time we only have one...he is ugly and kind of dumb...we had him since he was tiny, tiny....he is 13 now. He has a

fetish about toes and earlobes. He was weaned too early apparently and has the fixation his whole life...we always tell him no bites and he is pretty good but it is funny if we don't keep an eye on him with bare feet in the summer! Especially when we have guests! We have had a manx who liked to play with water. We have had a silly cat who washed his food in the water dish like a racoon and ate it off his paw. We had one who weighed about 4 to 5 pounds her whole life and would kill rattlesnakes and half grown jack rabbits bigger then she was and drag them home to her kittens. I love cats. I love dogs as well but have so little spare time I feel it would be selfish to have one. dogs require so much more then cats do. We also have chickens. My grand children love the chickens and would live with them I believe if they could. When clients come over with their children they all want to see the chickens also. I have even caught my elderly neighbor in the back

out there talking to them! lol I think they just somehow appeal to people. Jane In a message dated 1/5/2008 8:30:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes: I like to think that cats create a fantasy life, much as people do. I watch my son's cat who never goes outside "kill" all sorts of things from a houseplant leaf to a scrap of paper, with great enthisiasm. Then I saw her actually kill a mouse, which I have not yet seen my outside or inside/outside cats do. I do not think she has any less happy life than any of the other cats that I am around, and she will almost certainly outlive the other cats. The idea of an outside enclosure would be nice, but

much harder than confining a dog. W Re: ultimate exercise solution It's hard. when I see a cat sunning herself in the yard or kittens playing in the leaves, it's wonderful to see them enjoying themselves. Yet

when they catch birds and small animals or get hit by a car, it's so tragic. If I had my own home, I would want to make a large outdoor enclosure for the cats to use when they wish, but I know that's not possible for most people. I think of my apt being just a large cage for my poor cat who can never go out -- or if he ever does get out, he'll be unprepared to care for himself. If only I could find a way to save them all. On 1/4/08, labtrek1941 <labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net> wrote: I have read that cats take a huge toll on songbirds, and we have birdfeeders and hummingbird feeders

all over the place, so a contradiction in intent if there ever was one. Actually, only one (maybe two) of the cats living here seems to be a very accomplished hunter. Even the feral ones. They all have plenty of commercial food available, which they share with some not terribly wild raccoons and a possum. A cat that is really motivated to hunt does so for the sport rather than hunger, and I had one of those until she died last spring at age 17. She was a hunting machine and very successful. The only bird casualties we see any more are when fledgelings fall out of the nest and a cat is around. Most birds nesting near the house are mockingbirds and all the cats we have now are afraid of mockingbirds with good reason. Still, I agree with you and after this feral population is gone, there will be no outside cats here for the sake of the birds as well as the cats. Thanks for the quotes. They are wonderful, and I will share them with my daughter. W . No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008 12:05 PM Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

Elaine,

I didn't mean to make myself sound like someone who is on the front lines of this. I'm not. I'm one of those people who follows the HSUS daily blog and keeps up with several other sites. I send money, follow action alerts and write a lot of letters. Some of the people out there are doing WILD (in my opinion) things like going undercover to these dog auctions to rescue dogs and transporting them all over the country. I can't do all that.

Personally, I think what has happened with the farm animal situation is that farmers have been replaced with factory farms and people, for the most part, have no connection with the animals they are eating! They have no idea how badly they are treated and also no idea what is being put into them in the line of antibiotics and hormones and chemicals. I believe that if people for the most part knew what was going on, things would change. That is why write all these letters! Things only change when people make their elected representatives aware!

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

understanding is that in the Calif spay/neuter bill, legal breeders weren't affected. I saw

Here is my understanding about the spay/neuter law and I am far from California so I am somewhat limited here.

One of the reasons this got to be a hot bed issue is the definitiion of what is a legal breeder. there is a big difference between commercial kennels, back yard breeders, and professional breeders. A lot of people who show dogs and really care about their breed only have a few bitches and produce a couple of litters a year. They do not have a kennel license and are not considered breeders by many standards. When you get into the spay/neuter laws you start getting into numbers. How many dogs can you own/ breed before you need a license? What about a dog you are not breeding but may want to use for stud at some point? Normally you would have to pay a higher fee for a license for any dog that is not spayed or neutered. Suddenly you are paying $100 per license for any intact animal and these people do not want to do that. A lot of cities are passing their own ordinances because of the problems they are having with huge numbers of stray animals. Many of them limit the number of dogs that you can have within the city - usually no more than four dogs. That also effects many of these people. It gets really complicated and that is why the AKC just sticks with the policy of coming out against ANY laws that might restrict breeders because they believe that once the laws start, they will get more and more restrictive. On the other side though, what about the MILLIONS of dogs who are euthanized every year? That, as far as the AKC is concerned, is not their problem. Protecting their members is. It is truly, truly a huge and messy issue.Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

,

Most eggs in this country come from battery caged chickens. They are kept, normally, in the dark, in crowded cages where for their entire life they have less space than an 8X11 sheet of paper. Their beaks are burned off when they are chicks so they cannot kill each other. They live their whole lives without being able to stretch out their wings. Now there is a huge movement to do something about this (something like 150 college campuses nationwide have banned battery caged chicken eggs). Unfortunately there is very little regulation about labeling. Range Free means that they are supposed to have some access to the outdoors, though how much is not specified. Cage free means they are kept in sheds and are not confined to tiny cages so they can at least stretch out their wings. Certified Humane is supposed to be a step better I hear, but once again, very little regulation.

I am blessed in that I live so close to Raleigh and we have a WONDERFUL farmers market there. I buy my eggs from a nurse I work with whose son has chickens that roam their yard and when they are not laying I get them at the farmers market. You can also get hormone and antibiotic free meat there that is raised on local farms. In our area there are several farms where animals are raised humanely on sustainable farms and you can go there and buy meat from them.

Unfortunately however, I do buy meat from the grocery store because of the dogs. I feed them raw meat daily and I can't afford to go the farmers market route for them, though I do buy them antibiotic and hormone free chicken. All I can do to make myself feel better about that is to continue to try to change things for the animals in all factory farms!

Oh, and some of my best dogs have come from back yard breeders also. I would not buy a GSD at this point because of what has happened to the breed, unless I could get one from Germany. Fortunately, with Griffs being rare they have not been too overbred. All the other animals around here find their way here on their own so their lineage is not much of an issue lol

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

You go, Janet. Where does one go for good, factual information. I would assume, to the HSUS website. Any other suggestions?

,

Because I get so busy once the week starts, every Sunday evening (right about now) I get a cup of herbal tea and I sit down and read this blog Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation It truly does my heart good to see all the wonderful progress that they are making.

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

,

OMG! I just sat down to catch up on the HSUS blog and realized that a an email from ME, that I sent last weekend, is on the blog! That has never happened before! lol

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

[Guest guest]

Bottle-raising baby kittens is so hard. I understand you wanting to keep them tame. I've not raised any (too much work when they are newborn) but I've thought about the problem because our organization gets so many of them. I once found a litter of newborns on the side of the house I was living in at the time. It was before I knew about the rescue orgs. I was so silly, when I saw cats lounging in my backyard, I thought they were neighbors' cats who didn't like me. Now I know they were feral.

I asked friends for advice and was told that the best thing to do was make sure the mother had food so she could concentrate on caring for her babies. I set water and food nearby and when she wasn't around, petted the kittens, hoping to tame them. But the second time she caught me, she moved them and I never saw them again. Now I know that moving the kittens is common for them.

I still don't know how to raise them (so that they are cared for by their wild mother) but I'll probably find out next spring. I feel strongly about it because I also work at a wild animal hospital where the mantra is: no baby can be better cared for by anyone other than their mother. We get a lot of well meaning people who bring in baby birds fallen from their nest and all they had to do is put it back into the nest. They didn't know and thought they were rescuing it. Anyway, what I know so far is that the mother has to be trapped so that she doesn't move the kittens. What I have to learn is how to be able to handle the kittens so they'll be tame without having my hand ripped off by the mother. The truth is, I don't know if they actually do that in this group, or if they just bottle feed them. I'm hoping that's not the case when they have a choice. They often get kittens the public brings in and the mother can't be found so they raise those but I don't know what they do if the mother can be found or if they are all brought in together.

I was lucky with the ferals I got. While they were terribly afraid and didn't want to be touched, and one hissed fiercely, they weren't aggressive. It was disconcerting to put my hand into a cage with one acting like a little monster. I kept reminding myself it was only an act. However, I have " babysat " a few when it wasn't an act. In that case, I always made sure my hand was inside a heavy glove when it went in the cage). Mine were four-months old when captured. They hated to be touched and I hated forcing it on them. But once they decided being petted was a good thing, they have turned around completely and begged me to pet them more and more. I don't know their past lives but they lived in a colony behind a warehouse where the owner took good care of the colony on a daily basis. yet these kittens act like Jane's cat, and appear to have been weaned too soon. They want to suckle on everything they can get their mouths on. I had a brother and sister and it was only the sister who did it. But she was adopted and her brother began acting like that but twice as bad. Some people love that, and the wet kisses in the face and kneading, etc. I'm not one of them, lol. But one gets what they get and this is my baby who I'm afraid to bring to adoption events. It had taken so long for the sister to get adopted, I had thought they weren't going to be and when it happened, I didn't feel I could refuse since I had brought them to the store every week for that purpose. But I had fallen in love and I went home feeling sick that day. Poor Cappy feels much worst about it. I know the sister has a wonderful home though and that helps me. Poor Cappy.

Elaine

In 2003, when we were capturing and spaying/neutering the feral cats, we had a cat have kittens in out hay shed. We took the kittens just after they opened their eyes and bottle raised them on KMR. We reasoned that if we left them much longer with their mother they would become too wild to place. One became a horror story when spayed with complication after complication (suture line herniation, etc) costing a bunch in money and more in grief. She was an enchanting kitten and burning with life and I still tear up thinking of her. We eventually exhausted all options and she had to be euthanized, but her two siblings and another rescue cat from that same spring are our beloved housecats.

I am big on neutering and maintaining feral colonies. Taming a feral cat is quite a project, and I admire you for taking on the task Elaine.

W

..

[Guest guest]

It sounds wonderful, Janet. A good thing about fantasies is that, there's no hard work. (grin)

Elaine

to have a large garden, both vegetables and flowers/plants, plus some type of sanctuary for animals, domestic animals and maybe others

Elaine,

we have sooooo many similar fantasies! In mine, I have the farm after finishing a few years of traveling so that I will have a place to keep all of the lovely mementos I bring back from each culture. At my farm there are always fragrant pots of soup on the stove and fresh bread in the oven, lilacs in bloom for months instead of a few weeks, and there are MANY rescued dogs and horses, chickens and pigs, and a big old barn to keep them in, except the Griffs who sleep with me of course!.

We had many of these animals when I was young and I don't take the time to think about how much work taking care of them all would be lol

Janet

..

[Guest guest]

, that's a wonderful idea. It would solve several issues.

I know what you mean about the expense of getting someone to care for the animals and plants, esp since I'm one of those who get paid to do it. I don't get as much money as some because I usually stay overnight rather than pop in once or twice a day. They get more money because they charge per visit and it really adds up, but that involves a lot of driving in bad traffic and other things I don't care for. I have a small group of customers that mostly heard about me from each other. They are good to work for and the animals are wonderful. They are also well-off financially. Friends have told me that what they had had to pay for animal care was more than what the trip cost. My only issue is that my customers don't travel enough -- sometimes there are long dry periods and they mostly want to travel at the same time.

We now have a lot of companies springing up that hire people to care for pets. I see their ads often looking for people (who don't have to have experience of any kind). I'm sure the prices for care will go up since these people have to get their measly wage and the company their huge profit.

The trust issue is difficult. Some people are incredibly trusting to me when I first begin working for them, when they know little about me (including those who I wasn't referred to by another customer) and while I appreciate it, I don't think I could be so trusting. I also hear so many stories of people who hire those who don't care for the animals and plants as they were told to. That also amazes me because I think I need to do what the customer wants, or discuss it before they leave. But I've not heard any horror stories and that's a blessing for everyone involved. I'm sure they exist though.

Elaine

What a perfect set of wishes and priorities, Elaine. Maybe the solution is to find someone of like values and trade off. Part of the year you travel and they mind the home, garden and sanctuary, then they travel and you mind the place.

I have the place, but it keeps me tied there. If I travel, I have to pay someone to care for the animals and water the plants and stock the bird and hummingbird feeders, and usually it just becomes too expensive. Besides, it is hard to find someone you can really trust with all that you love and feel responsible for.

W

..

[Guest guest]

I probably did not do the best thing taking that litter from their mother, but it seemed like the reasonable thing at the time. I had great plans for adopting them out but, from my other posting, you can see how successful I was. The two surviving kittens are still here. The mother was so wily that she had another litter before we were able to capture her. We still have one kitten from that second litter. He met with some mishap and came up with a dislocated hip and we were able to capture him and get him treated. He had to be crated for weeks and became tame. He follows my daughter around the garden and likes petting but does not get along with the inside cats, so stays outside except in really bad weather. We finally got his mother captured and fixed, but lost her after huricane Katrina. When we left after the storm, my son came over every couple of days and put food out for the feral cats. I do not believe any of them perished in the storm, but several disappeared in the weeks and months that followed. Hawks and owls have flourished and we see more coyotes now so I think there has been a lot of predation. Also, last spring every one of our many squirrels disppeared. Now a few are coming back. Was it disease, predators or what? Guess I will never know, but there have been comments in the newspaper from others that they have lost their squirrel population. I know many people who left their pets at home when they evacuated, and lost them along with everything else. I am friends with two vets who had many clients leave pets at their clinic. Both clinics were in the storm surge line and buildings and pets were lost. My vet, Dr Hunt said it was the worst day of his life. The other vet lost her home as well and was so destroyed by it all that it took her months to be able to start trying to put her life back together. A third vet a very special friend who was a nurse first then went back and became a vet, lost her home and brand new clinic, yet went to work immediately for a rescue organization that was finding and caring for pets displaced and lost in the storm. She still lives in a tiny FEMA trailer on her property and works for another clinic. She is a very independent person with strong opinions who, I know, has a hard time in a group practice situation, yet she soldiers on. My vet bought a big RV and has a mobile clinic now. I guess it seems safer than bricks and mortar.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

Bottle-raising baby kittens is so hard. I understand you wanting to keep them tame. I've not raised any (too much work when they are newborn) but I've thought about the problem because our organization gets so many of them. I once found a litter of newborns on the side of the house I was living in at the time. It was before I knew about the rescue orgs. I was so silly, when I saw cats lounging in my backyard, I thought they were neighbors' cats who didn't like me. Now I know they were feral.

I asked friends for advice and was told that the best thing to do was make sure the mother had food so she could concentrate on caring for her babies. I set water and food nearby and when she wasn't around, petted the kittens, hoping to tame them. But the second time she caught me, she moved them and I never saw them again. Now I know that moving the kittens is common for them.

I still don't know how to raise them (so that they are cared for by their wild mother) but I'll probably find out next spring. I feel strongly about it because I also work at a wild animal hospital where the mantra is: no baby can be better cared for by anyone other than their mother. We get a lot of well meaning people who bring in baby birds fallen from their nest and all they had to do is put it back into the nest. They didn't know and thought they were rescuing it. Anyway, what I know so far is that the mother has to be trapped so that she doesn't move the kittens. What I have to learn is how to be able to handle the kittens so they'll be tame without having my hand ripped off by the mother. The truth is, I don't know if they actually do that in this group, or if they just bottle feed them. I'm hoping that's not the case when they have a choice. They often get kittens the public brings in and the mother can't b found so they raise those but I don't know what they do if the mother can be found or if they are all brought in together.

I was lucky with the ferals I got. While they were terribly afraid and didn't want to be touched, and one hissed fiercely, they weren't aggressive. It was disconcerting to put my hand into a cage with one acting like a little monster. I kept reminding myself it was only an act. However, I have "babysat" a few when it wasn't an act. In that case, I always made sure my hand was inside a heavy glove when it went in the cage). Mine were four-months old when captured. They hated to be touched and I hated forcing it on them. But once they decided being petted was a good thing, they have turned around completely and begged me to pet them more and more. I don't know their past lives but they lived in a colony behind a warehouse where the owner took good care of the colony on a daily basis. yet these kittens act like Jane's cat, and appear to have been weaned too soon. They want to suckle on everything they can et their mouths on. I had a brother and sister and it was only the sister who did it. But she was adopted and her brother began acting like that but twice as bad. Some people love that, and the wet kisses in the face and kneading, etc. I'm not one of them, lol. But one gets what they get and this is my baby who I'm afraid to bring to adoption events. It had taken so long for the sister to get adopted, I had thought they weren't going to be and when it happened, I didn't feel I could refuse since I had brought them to the store every week for that purpose. But I had fallen in love and I went home feeling sick that day. Poor Cappy feels much worst about it. I know the sister has a wonderful home though and that helps me. Poor Cappy.

Elaine

On 1/6/08, labtrek1941 <labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net> wrote:

In 2003, when we were capturing and spaying/neutering the feral cats, we had a cat have kittens in out hay shed. We took the kittens just after they opened their eyes and bottle raised them on KMR. We reasoned that if we left them much longer with their mother they would become too wild to place. One became a horror story when spayed with complication after complication (suture line herniation, etc) costing a bunch in money and more in grief. She was an enchanting kitten and burning with life and I still tear up thinking of her. We eventually exhausted all options and she had to be euthanized, but her two siblings and another rescue cat from that same spring are our beloved housecats.

I am big on neutering and maintaining feral colonies. Taming a feral cat is quite a project, and I admire you for taking on the task Elaine.

W

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[Guest guest]

Janet, lots of reasons, many vague and not so well thought out. gives a good reason. One law doesn't fit all is probably the biggest reason. Most of these type of laws make life hard for responsible people and the irresponsible carry on as they always did. It's not so enforceable. It would give animal pounds more reason/power to destroy pets as well as ferals. Maybe a little too much Big Brother telling us what to do (okay, this is probably the worst rationalization).

When it was going on, I saw people " on the street " being interviewed by reporters and they gave all sorts of reasons against it that I thought were invalid. One lady said that she worried that there would no longer be pure breed dogs if the law went through. So many people didn't know what the proposed law really stated and that's the big problem with " on the street " interviews. If the law were to be passed, these misconceptions would continue.

That's not the best answer, Janet, but the morning is running out and I'm still at this darn computer.

California had attempted to pass a law in which all owners of cats and dogs would have to spay/neuter them. It didn't pass and I'm kind of glad it didn't,

Elaine,

Since this problem is so huge, why are you glad that the Healthy Pets law did not pass? ( I am not in California but I like to hear everyone's thoughts) It's being reworked by the way and will be reintroduced.

I am an avid member of HSUS so I follow these things lol

Janet

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[Guest guest]

, I feel we do the best we know how at the time of the situation. Please don't think I was faulting you in any way. Who knows what fate may have fallen on those kittens if you hadn't taken them in and raised them.

The stories of the animal clinics are so very sad. I hadn't heard about them before. In the many lessons learned from Katrina, I know much is being changed about animal care during an emergency across the nation. We hear about it in different ways. I've heard reports that as cities/states rewrite their emergency plans, they now know that many people won't leave without their pets and they have to include them in the plan, as well as take care of those that are left behind. I know someone who volunteers for the county pound and recently participated in an emergency practice drill that included animals in their scenarios.

Elaine

I probably did not do the best thing taking that litter from their mother, but it seemed like the reasonable thing at the time. I had great plans for adopting them out but, from my other posting, you can see how successful I was. The two surviving kittens are still here. The mother was so wily that she had another litter before we were able to capture her. We still have one kitten from that second litter. He met with some mishap and came up with a dislocated hip and we were able to capture him and get him treated. He had to be crated for weeks and became tame. He follows my daughter around the garden and likes petting but does not get along with the inside cats, so stays outside except in really bad weather. We finally got his mother captured and fixed, but lost her after huricane Katrina. When we left after the storm, my son came over every couple of days and put food out for the feral cats. I do not believe any of them perished in the storm, but several disappeared in the weeks and months that followed. Hawks and owls have flourished and we see more coyotes now so I think there has been a lot of predation. Also, last spring every one of our many squirrels disppeared. Now a few are coming back. Was it disease, predators or what? Guess I will never know, but there have been comments in the newspaper from others that they have lost their squirrel population. I know many people who left their pets at home when they evacuated, and lost them along with everything else. I am friends with two vets who had many clients leave pets at their clinic. Both clinics were in the storm surge line and buildings and pets were lost. My vet, Dr Hunt said it was the worst day of his life. The other vet lost her home as well and was so destroyed by it all that it took her months to be able to start trying to put her life back together. A third vet a very special friend who was a nurse first then went back and became a vet, lost her home and brand new clinic, yet went to work immediately for a rescue organization that was finding and caring for pets displaced and lost in the storm. She still lives in a tiny FEMA trailer on her property and works for another clinic. She is a very independent person with strong opinions who, I know, has a hard time in a group practice situation, yet she soldiers on. My vet bought a big RV and has a mobile clinic now. I guess it seems safer than bricks and mortar.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

Bottle-raising baby kittens is so hard. I understand you wanting to keep them tame. I've not raised any (too much work when they are newborn) but I've thought about the problem because our organization gets so many of them. I once found a litter of newborns on the side of the house I was living in at the time. It was before I knew about the rescue orgs. I was so silly, when I saw cats lounging in my backyard, I thought they were neighbors' cats who didn't like me. Now I know they were feral.

I asked friends for advice and was told that the best thing to do was make sure the mother had food so she could concentrate on caring for her babies. I set water and food nearby and when she wasn't around, petted the kittens, hoping to tame them. But the second time she caught me, she moved them and I never saw them again. Now I know that moving the kittens is common for them.

I still don't know how to raise them (so that they are cared for by their wild mother) but I'll probably find out next spring. I feel strongly about it because I also work at a wild animal hospital where the mantra is: no baby can be better cared for by anyone other than their mother. We get a lot of well meaning people who bring in baby birds fallen from their nest and all they had to do is put it back into the nest. They didn't know and thought they were rescuing it. Anyway, what I know so far is that the mother has to be trapped so that she doesn't move the kittens. What I have to learn is how to be able to handle the kittens so they'll be tame without having my hand ripped off by the mother. The truth is, I don't know if they actually do that in this group, or if they just bottle feed them. I'm hoping that's not the case when they have a choice. They often get kittens the public brings in and the mother can't b found so they raise those but I don't know what they do if the mother can be found or if they are all brought in together.

I was lucky with the ferals I got. While they were terribly afraid and didn't want to be touched, and one hissed fiercely, they weren't aggressive. It was disconcerting to put my hand into a cage with one acting like a little monster. I kept reminding myself it was only an act. However, I have " babysat " a few when it wasn't an act. In that case, I always made sure my hand was inside a heavy glove when it went in the cage). Mine were four-months old when captured. They hated to be touched and I hated forcing it on them. But once they decided being petted was a good thing, they have turned around completely and begged me to pet them more and more. I don't know their past lives but they lived in a colony behind a warehouse where the owner took good care of the colony on a daily basis. yet these kittens act like Jane's cat, and appear to have been weaned too soon. They want to suckle on everything they can et their mouths on. I had a brother and sister and it was only the sister who did it. But she was adopted and her brother began acting like that but twice as bad. Some people love that, and the wet kisses in the face and kneading, etc. I'm not one of them, lol. But one gets what they get and this is my baby who I'm afraid to bring to adoption events. It had taken so long for the sister to get adopted, I had thought they weren't going to be and when it happened, I didn't feel I could refuse since I had brought them to the store every week for that purpose. But I had fallen in love and I went home feeling sick that day. Poor Cappy feels much worst about it. I know the sister has a wonderful home though and that helps me. Poor Cappy.

Elaine

On 1/6/08, labtrek1941 <labtrek1941@...

> wrote:

In 2003, when we were capturing and spaying/neutering the feral cats, we had a cat have kittens in out hay shed. We took the kittens just after they opened their eyes and bottle raised them on KMR. We reasoned that if we left them much longer with their mother they would become too wild to place. One became a horror story when spayed with complication after complication (suture line herniation, etc) costing a bunch in money and more in grief. She was an enchanting kitten and burning with life and I still tear up thinking of her. We eventually exhausted all options and she had to be euthanized, but her two siblings and another rescue cat from that same spring are our beloved housecats.

I am big on neutering and maintaining feral colonies. Taming a feral cat is quite a project, and I admire you for taking on the task Elaine.

W

..

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[Guest guest]

I agree with you, Janet. The way farm animals are raised and treated, the puppy mills, etc. Surely there is a special hell for these people. Education is so important because I feel most people don't know where their food is coming from and what is involved.

I'm not aware of what's happening with the AKC. I've never been involved with that group or any purebreds, etc, and I don't know if you're saying they are running the puppy mills. I just don't have knowledge in this area.

My understanding is that in the Calif spay/neuter bill, legal breeders weren't affected. I saw the way it would affect the average pet owner and that's what I don't like. I don't project my feelings about a spay/neuter bill for pets out to farm animals and puppy mills.

My biggest complaint with all laws is that politicians always put good and bad laws together as a package. I think there should be one law per bill and we can decide on each on its own merit rather than these crazy package deals that politicians use as a cya measure.

I wonder how so many things can be wrong in a nation as modern and great as the one we live in. Farms should be so much improved over the " old days " and they are so much worst in so many ways. It's good people like you are fighting for these animals, Janet.

I'm truly getting off this computer now.

Elaine

On 1/6/08, DreamOn145@... <

DreamOn145@...> wrote:

One law doesn't fit all is probably the biggest reason. Most of these type of laws make life hard for responsible people and the irresponsible carry on as they always did.

As things stand now, in my opinion, the AKC is starting to run scared. The HSUS grew by almost a million members last year and was basically responsible for the passage of 86 state laws having to do with animal welfare. One in 30 Americans is now a member. I personally have money taken from my checking account every month to support them. They have a full office of lawyers in Washington now and law firms working pro bono in most major cities. Animal law is a rising specialty in law schools. In California, they are hopefully about to eliminate the three worst forms of animal cruelty in the factory farm industry - gestation crates for hogs, battery cages for chickens, and veal crates for calves. This past year the HSUS reached the point where they had sufficient funds to begin buying out the stock of companies who opposed their humanitarian efforts and taking up residence on their boards. To someone like me, who has been fighting the animal welfare issues for years, this is all music to my ears. To a group like the AKC who is used to being the big dog in the dog world, they see the HSUS as the devil and his legions overrunning the country. I belong to about six different organizations and my two primary interests are battling puppy mills and bringing more humane laws to the state of North Carolina . Being in a purebred breed club I hear it from both sides on a daily basis. I believe that laws can be passed that target commercial puppy mills and I also believe that anyone who breeds dogs should have to be licensed and inspected and if that is inconvenient for people who are used to having free rein, well frankly I really do not care. The amount of suffering I see in this completely unregulated industry overrides my empathy for those people.

A friend of mine in the state of Misery (Missouri - the worst puppy mill Hell in the nation) recently did an undercover piece that circulated the groups I am in where she went undercover into an Amish puppy mill because a man was selling out (this video may be on YouTube). He admitted making over $100,000 the previous year and never paying taxes. But in a cage he had a little dog who had her hind leg chewed off by the dog in the cage next door and she was just sitting here shaking in shock and he just left her there. Kim bought her, took her to an emergency vet and she died a few hours later. This was about a week after I saw a video with a little Beagle whose skin had been half torn off and was left in the cage without treatment as well. Both of these facilities were licensed and has been inspected by the Department of Agriculture.

I'm sorry, I will now get off my soap box.

Janet

..

[Guest guest]

On the trust issue and people doing jobs that they are not qualified or really willing to do, it has been a lifelong issue for me with my horses. I have never lived where I could care for my own horses, and have had some distressing things happen. Two other friends, through the years have had horses sold and told that they had died. In both cases, someone who knew the horses came across them later and told the owner. I was the one who found one of the horses, but we were teenagers at the time, and her father was a physician who did not want to take time from his practice to pursue the issue in court. It only occurred to me recently (50 years later) that he may have given the person permission to sell the horse and tell her that the horse died. I am lucky that one of my horse is leased out to a super college student who loves him as if he were her own, and the other one is at a great place in the country where he gets loving, competent care.

I love that you do what you do and feel envious of your clients. It sounds like a neat career.

W

Re: Re: ultimate exercise solution

, that's a wonderful idea. It would solve several issues.

I know what you mean about the expense of getting someone to care for the animals and plants, esp since I'm one of those who get paid to do it. I don't get as much money as some because I usually stay overnight rather than pop in once or twice a day. They get more money because they charge per visit and it really adds up, but that involves a lot of driving in bad traffic and other things I don't care for. I have a small group of customers that mostly heard about me from each other. They are good to work for and the animals are wonderful. They are also well-off financially. Friends have told me that what they had had to pay for animal care was more than what the trip cost. My only issue is that my customers don't travel enough -- sometimes there are long dry periods and they mostly want to travel at the same time.

We now have a lot of companies springing up that hire people to care for pets. I see their ads often looking for people (who don't have to have experience of any kind). I'm sure the prices for care will go up since these people have to get their measly wage and the company their huge profit.

The trust issue is difficult. Some people are incredibly trusting to me when I first begin working for them, when they know little about me (including those who I wasn't referred to by another customer) and while I appreciate it, I don't think I could be so trusting. I also hear so many stories of people who hire those who don't care for the animals and plants as they were told to. That also amazes me because I think I need to do what the customer wants, or discuss it before they leave. But I've not heard any horror stories and that's a blessing for everyone involved. I'm sure they exist though.

Elaine

On 1/6/08, labtrek1941 <labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net> wrote:

What a perfect set of wishes and priorities, Elaine. Maybe the solution is to find someone of like values and trade off. Part of the year you travel and they mind the home, garden and sanctuary, then they travel and you mind the place.

I have the place, but it keeps me tied there. If I travel, I have to pay someone to care for the animals and water the plants and stock the bird and hummingbird feeders, and usually it just becomes too expensive. Besides, it is hard to find someone you can really trust with all that you love and feel responsible for.

W

..

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[Guest guest]

Something good comes from many tragedies, and, from what I understand, the sad lessons of pets in Katrina made things better during the California wildfires, and, hopefully in future evacuation situations.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

Bottle-raising baby kittens is so hard. I understand you wanting to keep them tame. I've not raised any (too much work when they are newborn) but I've thought about the problem because our organization gets so many of them. I once found a litter of newborns on the side of the house I was living in at the time. It was before I knew about the rescue orgs. I was so silly, when I saw cats lounging in my backyard, I thought they were neighbors' cats who didn't like me. Now I know they were feral.

I asked friends for advice and was told that the best thing to do was make sure the mother had food so she could concentrate on caring for her babies. I set water and food nearby and when she wasn't around, petted the kittens, hoping to tame them. But the second time she caught me, she moved them and I never saw them again. Now I know that moving the kittens is common for them.

I still don't know how to raise them (so that they are cared for by their wild mother) but I'll probably find out next spring. I feel strongly about it because I also work at a wild animal hospital where the mantra is: no baby can be better cared for by anyone other than their mother. We get a lot of well meaning people who bring in baby birds fallen from their nest and all they had to do is put it back into the nest. They didn't know and thought they were rescuing it. Anyway, what I know so far is that the mother has to be trapped so that she doesn't move the kittens. What I have to learn is how to be able to handle the kittens so they'll be tame without having my hand ripped off by the mother. The truth is, I don't know if they actually do that in this group, or if they just bottle feed them. I'm hoping that's not the case when they have a choice. They often get kittens the public brings in and the mother can't bfound so they raise those but I don't know what they do if the mother can be found or if they are all brought in together.

I was lucky with the ferals I got. While they were terribly afraid and didn't want to be touched, and one hissed fiercely, they weren't aggressive. It was disconcerting to put my hand into a cage with one acting like a little monster. I kept reminding myself it was only an act. However, I have "babysat" a few when it wasn't an act. In that case, I always made sure my hand was inside a heavy glove when it went in the cage). Mine were four-months old when captured. They hated to be touched and I hated forcing it on them. But once they decided being petted was a good thing, they have turned around completely and begged me to pet them more and more. I don't know their past lives but they lived in a colony behind a warehouse where the owner took good care of the colony on a daily basis. yet these kittens act like Jane's cat, and appear to have been weaned too soon. They want to suckle on everything they can t their mouths on. I had a brother and sister and it was only the sister who did it. But she was adopted and her brother began acting like that but twice as bad. Some people love that, and the wet kisses in the face and kneading, etc. I'm not one of them, lol. But one gets what they get and this is my baby who I'm afraid to bring to adoption events. It had taken so long for the sister to get adopted, I had thought they weren't going to be and when it happened, I didn't feel I could refuse since I had brought them to the store every week for that purpose. But I had fallen in love and I went home feeling sick that day. Poor Cappy feels much worst about it. I know the sister has a wonderful home though and that helps me. Poor Cappy.

Elaine

On 1/6/08, labtrek1941 <labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net > wrote:

In 2003, when we were capturing and spaying/neutering the feral cats, we had a cat have kittens in out hay shed. We took the kittens just after they opened their eyes and bottle raised them on KMR. We reasoned that if we left them much longer with their mother they would become too wild to place. One became a horror story when spayed with complication after complication (suture line herniation, etc) costing a bunch in money and more in grief. She was an enchanting kitten and burning with life and I still tear up thinking of her. We eventually exhausted all options and she had to be euthanized, but her two siblings and another rescue cat from that same spring are our beloved housecats.

I am big on neutering and maintaining feral colonies. Taming a feral cat is quite a project, and I admire you for taking on the task Elaine.

W

..

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[Guest guest]

You sound knowledgable on the farm animal issues, so maybe you can clarify something for me, Janet. When we buy eggs, and they are labeled from free range hens, what does it really mean? I have read that lots of those labelings are deceptive.

I have read that as many as 40% of dogs registered with the AKC are not purebred. That does not surprise me. I think labeling and snob appeal has spoiled many breeds. Maybe the backyard breeders which the show dog people rail against are the ones who have it right. They have a dog they love to be with so much that they want to reproduce her. So they breed her to the nicest dog of that breed that they know, another dog that people love to be around. Maybe a good formula for producing a good dog.

My brother's German Shepherd is from winning bloodlines and yet he has those overangulated structurally impossible hocks that showtype American GSDs usually have. The Germans do not breed that type of dog. We do the same thing with horses in this country. If it is visually beautiful that is all that counts. The Quarter Horses for many years had impossibly small feet for their bulk. The Thoroughbreds were bred to deliver a foal that was too big to be born without help. The Arabians of the 70's were too "rare and wonderful" to be used for anything. Dogs and horses may be our best friends, but we too often, are not theirs.

I had heard of the practices with veal, but somehow, thought they only did that in Japan.

Never any more veal for me!! I think we are held accountable at some point.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/6/2008 1:37:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, elrolegmail writes:

One law doesn't fit all is probably the biggest reason. Most of these type of laws make life hard for responsible people and the irresponsible carry on as they always did.

As things stand now, in my opinion, the AKC is starting to run scared. The HSUS grew by almost a million members last year and was basically responsible for the passage of 86 state laws having to do with animal welfare. One in 30 Americans is now a member. I personally have money taken from my checking account every month to support them. They have a full office of lawyers in Washington now and law firms working pro bono in most major cities. Animal law is a rising specialty in law schools. In California, they are hopefully about to eliminate the three worst forms of animal cruelty in the factory farm industry - gestation crates for hogs, battery cages for chickens, and veal crates for calves. This past year the HSUS reached the point where they had sufficient funds to begin buying out the stock of companies who opposed their humanitarian efforts and taking up residence on their boards. To someone like me, who has been fighting the animal welfare issues for years, this is all music to my ears. To a group like the AKC who is used to being the big dog in the dog world, they see the HSUS as the devil and his legions overrunning the country. I belong to about six different organizations and my two primary interests are battling puppy mills and bringing more humane laws to the state of North Carolina . Being in a purebred breed club I hear it from both sides on a daily basis. I believe that laws can be passed that target commercial puppy mills and I also believe that anyone who breeds dogs should have to be licensed and inspected and if that is inconvenient for people who are used to having free rein, well frankly I really do not care. The amount of suffering I see in this completely unregulated industry overrides my empathy for those people.

A friend of mine in the state of Misery (Missouri - the worst puppy mill Hell in the nation) recently did an undercover piece that circulated the groups I am in where she went undercover into an Amish puppy mill because a man was selling out (this video may be on YouTube). He admitted making over $100,000 the previous year and never paying taxes. But in a cage he had a little dog who had her hind leg chewed off by the dog in the cage next door and she was just sitting here shaking in shock and he just left her there. Kim bought her, took her to an emergency vet and she died a few hours later. This was about a week after I saw a video with a little Beagle whose skin had been half torn off and was left in the cage without treatment as well. Both of these facilities were licensed and has been inspected by the Department of Agriculture.

I'm sorry, I will now get off my soap box.

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

You go, Janet. Where does one go for good, factual information. I would assume, to the HSUS website. Any other suggestions?

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

Elaine,

I didn't mean to make myself sound like someone who is on the front lines of this. I'm not. I'm one of those people who follows the HSUS daily blog and keeps up with several other sites. I send money, follow action alerts and write a lot of letters. Some of the people out there are doing WILD (in my opinion) things like going undercover to these dog auctions to rescue dogs and transporting them all over the country. I can't do all that.

Personally, I think what has happened with the farm animal situation is that farmers have been replaced with factory farms and people, for the most part, have no connection with the animals they are eating! They have no idea how badly they are treated and also no idea what is being put into them in the line of antibiotics and hormones and chemicals. I believe that if people for the most part knew what was going on, things would change. That is why write all these letters! Things only change when people make their elected representatives aware!

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for clarifying, Janet.

Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/6/2008 2:53:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, elrolegmail writes:

understanding is that in the Calif spay/neuter bill, legal breeders weren't affected. I saw

Here is my understanding about the spay/neuter law and I am far from California so I am somewhat limited here.

One of the reasons this got to be a hot bed issue is the definitiion of what is a legal breeder. there is a big difference between commercial kennels, back yard breeders, and professional breeders. A lot of people who show dogs and really care about their breed only have a few bitches and produce a couple of litters a year. They do not have a kennel license and are not considered breeders by many standards. When you get into the spay/neuter laws you start getting into numbers. How many dogs can you own/ breed before you need a license? What about a dog you are not breeding but may want to use for stud at some point? Normally you would have to pay a higher fee for a license for any dog that is not spayed or neutered. Suddenly you are paying $100 per license for any intact animal and these people do not want to do that. A lot of cities are passing their own ordinances because of the problems they are having with huge numbers of stray animals. Many of them limit the number of dogs that you can have within the city - usually no more than four dogs. That also effects many of these people. It gets really complicated and that is why the AKC just sticks with the policy of coming out against ANY laws that might restrict breeders because they believe that once the laws start, they will get more and more restrictive. On the other side though, what about the MILLIONS of dogs who are euthanized every year? That, as far as the AKC is concerned, is not their problem. Protecting their members is. It is truly, truly a huge and messy issue.

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

It seems that the worst thing that can happen to a dog breed is to get popular.

Thanks for the info on chickens. We have a farmers market here, but it is nothing like the one in Asheville. Some of the vendors sell their own home grown things, and others have things they buy commercially to resell. I get great plants and, in season, astounding tomatoes and other vegetables, but no reliable eggs. There is also a source for grass fed, antibiotic and hormone free beef. The people take orders and deliver to a farmer's market monthly, not the one I mostly use but not too far away. It is so expensive I can only afford mostly ground beef, but, naturally, very lean and nice and a little goes a long way. If not for zoning, I would love to keep a few chickens, but know I could not kill them, only use them for eggs. I try to buy organic eggs from free range chickens and hope for the best.

W

Re: ultimate exercise solution

,

Most eggs in this country come from battery caged chickens. They are kept, normally, in the dark, in crowded cages where for their entire life they have less space than an 8X11 sheet of paper. Their beaks are burned off when they are chicks so they cannot kill each other. They live their whole lives without being able to stretch out their wings. Now there is a huge movement to do something about this (something like 150 college campuses nationwide have banned battery caged chicken eggs). Unfortunately there is very little regulation about labeling. Range Free means that they are supposed to have some access to the outdoors, though how much is not specified. Cage free means they are kept in sheds and are not confined to tiny cages so they can at least stretch out their wings. Certified Humane is supposed to be a step better I hear, but once again, very little regulation.

I am blessed in that I live so close to Raleigh and we have a WONDERFUL farmers market there. I buy my eggs from a nurse I work with whose son has chickens that roam their yard and when they are not laying I get them at the farmers market. You can also get hormone and antibiotic free meat there that is raised on local farms. In our area there are several farms where animals are raised humanely on sustainable farms and you can go there and buy meat from them.

Unfortunately however, I do buy meat from the grocery store because of the dogs. I feed them raw meat daily and I can't afford to go the farmers market route for them, though I do buy them antibiotic and hormone free chicken. All I can do to make myself feel better about that is to continue to try to change things for the animals in all factory farms!

Oh, and some of my best dogs have come from back yard breeders also. I would not buy a GSD at this point because of what has happened to the breed, unless I could get one from Germany. Fortunately, with Griffs being rare they have not been too overbred. All the other animals around here find their way here on their own so their lineage is not much of an issue lol

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the link. Making myself a cup of tea and will go to it.

Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/6/2008 5:16:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

You go, Janet. Where does one go for good, factual information. I would assume, to the HSUS website. Any other suggestions?

,

Because I get so busy once the week starts, every Sunday evening (right about now) I get a cup of herbal tea and I sit down and read this blog Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation It truly does my heart good to see all the wonderful progress that they are making.

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1211 - Release Date: 1/6/2008 11:57 AM

[Guest guest]

What a great site. I bookmarked it and will go to it regularly. Thanks.

Re: ultimate exercise solution

In a message dated 1/6/2008 5:16:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

You go, Janet. Where does one go for good, factual information. I would assume, to the HSUS website. Any other suggestions?

,

Because I get so busy once the week starts, every Sunday evening (right about now) I get a cup of herbal tea and I sit down and read this blog Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation It truly does my heart good to see all the wonderful progress that they are making.

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1211 - Release Date: 1/6/2008 11:57 AM