weight and transdermals and other stuff

[Guest guest]

From what I'm seeing, here and in the literature, the P cream builds up in

the fat and sits there. There is inadequate research for using P cream to

protect the endometrium, though if it causes a shed, then maybe it does.

There just has not been enough research on it.

Val

-----Original Message-----

From: rhythmicliving

[mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

I was the crazy one who switched to the P cream and that is when all my

trouble started.

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>> the stripe may never fade, but I've grown to like it:))) , maybe I should paint it with Iodine too, LOLLOLLOL... ) my hubby is never bored, that's forsure,

[Guest guest]

Val...yeah, not a lot of research on how well

transdermal P helps shed the endo buildup. That is why

I posted over the study from the Journal of The North

American Menopausal Society just yesterday, I think.

It says, in part, " ..antiproliferative effects on the

endometrium HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATED with progesterone

creams (even) when circulating levels of progesterone

are low.. " et.al.

For myself, however, I had to use mega amounts to get

that to happen, and even then, over time, the period

got lighter and lighter (which will happen in the

postmeno woman anyway, per Vliet). However, for me,

the price was too high....in order to get a bleed from

the transdermal P, I had to also suffer the systemic

side effects of such large amounts.

Since it HAS been shown, in studies, that vaginal P

targets the uterus directly, while at the same time

causing a much lower effect on both blood levels and

and other systemic organs, such as brain, et.al., and,

that we can use a LOT less amount of P

vaginally....seems to make sense to consider, anyway.

I wish there was more literature on how to get the P

out of the fat stores....the only answer I keep

getting is " time " . Sigh. Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> From what I'm seeing, here and in the literature,

> the P cream builds up in

> the fat and sits there. There is inadequate

> research for using P cream to

> protect the endometrium, though if it causes a shed,

> then maybe it does.

> There just has not been enough research on it.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

>

> I was the crazy one who switched to the P cream

> and that is when all my

> trouble started.

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

Yahoo! for Good

Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

> I wish there was more literature on how to get the P

> out of the fat stores....the only answer I keep

> getting is " time " . Sigh. Carolyn

>

For me, I thought not using P for 3 months, the 4 grains Armour I am on

helping metabolize it outta me more quickly than others it seemed, and

they say T also opposes P, which might be another avenue (using some

testosterone) to get it mobilized and out. Also.. took milk thistle

daily, just in case it would help my liver get it out

[Guest guest]

Val...I am wondering how much is the Prometrium dose,

and...why for 12 days.....??

I am wondering because,in comparison to the tested

studies done on before the release of the Crinone

product, and what it advises for its protocol, which

is that it produces desired results at a dose of only

45mg taken only for 10 days.....???

I am wondering if 1)taking LESS dose and 2) taking for

only 10 days...will minimize the side effects you are

experiencing. After all, since the hormone is going

right to the target tissue, less amount is needed, if

I am understanding the paragigm correctly,as it is not

being metabolized through anything else.

Remembering the adage " Take the lowest amount for the

shortest amount of time that will produce the best

positive effect " ...would still seem to make sense??

Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> I'm on Day 10 of vaginal Prometrium. I'm starting

> to have P symptoms -

> bloating, sore and dry eyes, a little depression,

> sore joints. It is not as

> bad as taking it orally, however. I'm going to go

> 12 days.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

>

>

> I'm still having trouble using P. I

> can't take it. In cream OR olive oil. I may have

> to go the vaginal

> route now.

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Well that's an idea...wonder if there's a chance it would be a uterineprotectant. You're just briming with smartness!!!L> I should paint it with Iodine too, LOLLOLLOL... ) my hubby isnever bored, > that's forsure,

>>>>>>>>>>LOLLOL........hey, maybe if you douched with it, LOLLOL...) L

[Guest guest]

I agree, Val. IF you are beginning to get symptoms at day 10, maybe

stop the P at that point and see what happens?? When I first began

to cycle my P and use E all month (in order to get periods again

after 2 years without them)..I began on calendar day 1 of the month.

The first two months, I didn't get a period. On the third month, I

began getting my period on day 12 of the P, so I would stop it.

After that, I found myself getting the period on day 10.....so I

began using the P only for 10 days per month and the period always

came. maybe 10 days is enough for you??

>

> > I'm on Day 10 of vaginal Prometrium. I'm starting

> > to have P symptoms -

> > bloating, sore and dry eyes, a little depression,

> > sore joints. It is not as

> > bad as taking it orally, however. I'm going to go

> > 12 days.

> >

> > Val

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: rhythmicliving

> > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> >

> >

> > I'm still having trouble using P. I

> > can't take it. In cream OR olive oil. I may have

> > to go the vaginal

> > route now.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>LOLLOL........hey, maybe if you douched with it, LOLLOL...) L

I shouldn't have said that, someone may try it.....painting is good, L

[Guest guest]

...I think I would like to try that; and I also

remember reading somewhere that stepping up the

cardiovascular and weight training might help speed up

the metabolic processes as well! Think I will try and

turn myself into a bull for a while!! :)Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

>

> > I wish there was more literature on how to get the

> P

> > out of the fat stores....the only answer I keep

> > getting is " time " . Sigh. Carolyn

> >

>

> For me, I thought not using P for 3 months, the 4

> grains Armour I am on

> helping metabolize it outta me more quickly than

> others it seemed, and

> they say T also opposes P, which might be another

> avenue (using some

> testosterone) to get it mobilized and out. Also..

> took milk thistle

> daily, just in case it would help my liver get it

> out

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

builds up in the fat and sits there meaning NOT doing its job? WEll

it's doing SOMEthing -- it's causing me pain and dry eyes!

> From what I'm seeing, here and in the literature, the P cream

builds up in

> the fat and sits there. There is inadequate research for using P

cream to

> protect the endometrium, though if it causes a shed, then maybe it

does.

> There just has not been enough research on it.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> I was the crazy one who switched to the P cream and that is when

all my

> trouble started.

[Guest guest]

In all of us...on toxic overload big time....more

stored in fat than the body can handle...slowly

leaking out is still causing systemic side effects!!

I am STILL considering rolling, like a barrel, down

our flight of stairs to try and extract the P a little

faster!! :)Carolyn

--- wrote:

> builds up in the fat and sits there meaning NOT

> doing its job? WEll

> it's doing SOMEthing -- it's causing me pain and dry

> eyes!

>

>

>

>

>

> > From what I'm seeing, here and in the literature,

> the P cream

> builds up in

> > the fat and sits there. There is inadequate

> research for using P

> cream to

> > protect the endometrium, though if it causes a

> shed, then maybe it

> does.

> > There just has not been enough research on it.

> >

> > Val

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: rhythmicliving

> > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf

> Of

> > I was the crazy one who switched to the P cream

> and that is when

> all my

> > trouble started.

>

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

I remember when I had a HUGE bottle of Betadine to clean my dog's surgical scars and I had a lot left...I put about 2 cups in the water...now, rust colored water...and bathed in there. I felt unbeliavbly exhilarated after the bath..it was wonderful. I do like iodine, the smell, everything.>

>>>>>>>>> I was in a store that has a pharmacy in it today, asked the pharmacist if they sold lugol's still, he laughed. He said we sold that for everything under the SUN, but now,LOLLOL.............you guessed it, they've made a drug with an RX for it.

I was amazed he admitted that to me, we both had a good laugh, but then we said how said it really was.

[Guest guest]

> ...I think I would like to try that; and I also

> remember reading somewhere that stepping up the

> cardiovascular and weight training might help speed up

> the metabolic processes as well! Think I will try and

> turn myself into a bull for a while!! :)Carolyn

>

SINCE I am a Taurus..it wasn't too far of a stretch...but remember poor

Nuimom, who had P rearing it's head every time she got physical...so

there has to be a certain passage of time after the P overload before

you start working out

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > From what I'm seeing, here and in the literature,

> > the P cream

> > builds up in

> > > the fat and sits there. There is inadequate

> > research for using P

> > cream to

> > > protect the endometrium, though if it causes a

> > shed, then maybe it

> > does.

> > > There just has not been enough research on it.

> > >

Actually, I do not think that just because you have a shed

automatically means the endometrium is being protected. the more E I

used, building an ever thicker lining, the longer and heavier and

clottier my periods became. MAYBE - if the E dose is a sane one (to

me, that menas never more than 1.5 mg BID of E2), the shed will also

stay 5 days and a " classic " period, without cramps, clots,

hemmhoraging.

diana

[Guest guest]

Oh, yeah....I forgot!! The " surge syndrome " . Oh,geez.

Thanks for the FYI!! Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > ...I think I would like to try that; and I

> also

> > remember reading somewhere that stepping up the

> > cardiovascular and weight training might help

> speed up

> > the metabolic processes as well! Think I will try

> and

> > turn myself into a bull for a while!! :)Carolyn

> >

>

> SINCE I am a Taurus..it wasn't too far of a

> stretch...but remember poor

> Nuimom, who had P rearing it's head every time she

> got physical...so

> there has to be a certain passage of time after the

> P overload before

> you start working out

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oh, wow again, ! Your observation that " just

because you have a shed, does NOT mean, necessarily,

that the endometrium is being protected " .

Yikes! That's just gotta be true. To confirm what you

are saying with my own experinece, fter getting my

pelvic ultrasound and thence the uterine biopsy, I was

revealed to have much hyperplasia, which the ob/gyn is

now trying to get cleaned up. Yet, all the while, I

was getting a period, albeit they were getting lighter

and shorter as the months went by.

In the process of getting cleaned up, the bleeding has

been almost non-stop, and yes, heavy and clotty!

So that confirms to me the veracity of the study I

just posted to the group yesterday, which was

published in the journal of The North American

Menopause Society, to quote, in part:

" ...Thus, the effects of topical (or any)

progesterone(creams) on the endometrium should NOT be

based on serum (or saliva) progesterone levels, but ON

HISTOLOGICAL EXAMINATION OF THE ENDOMETRIUM.... "

(pelvic ultrasounds and, especially, uterine biopsies

- which, not coincidentally, are required by the FDA

for any clinical studies being done that are

conducting research on progesterone being used for

HRT; refer KEEPS Study and Texas Study)

Thanks, . Your post made all this a bit more

clearer as we go along this path! Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > >

> > > > From what I'm seeing, here and in the

> literature,

> > > the P cream

> > > builds up in

> > > > the fat and sits there. There is inadequate

> > > research for using P

> > > cream to

> > > > protect the endometrium, though if it causes a

> > > shed, then maybe it

> > > does.

> > > > There just has not been enough research on it.

> > > >

>

> Actually, I do not think that just because you have

> a shed

> automatically means the endometrium is being

> protected. the more E I

> used, building an ever thicker lining, the longer

> and heavier and

> clottier my periods became. MAYBE - if the E dose

> is a sane one (to

> me, that menas never more than 1.5 mg BID of E2),

> the shed will also

> stay 5 days and a " classic " period, without cramps,

> clots,

> hemmhoraging.

> diana

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Carolyn, as of last December, I had endometrial hyperplasia (stripe = 13). I'm a bit gun shy right now. I had been using 1.5 mg Estrogel/day plus 50 mg progesterone suppository for 5 days every thee months. I had a bit of spotting but not much else. I thought I'd hit the P jackpot. Little did I know that my lining was growing, growing. I have read research that supports that regimen. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me nor for Sammie, also on this list. We both got hyperplasia.

Prometrium is recommended for 10 - 12 days/month at 200 mg. I just thought I'd be safe and use 12 days. I'm using 100 mg because that is the smallest dose available. I think half that would work (Crinone?). I think my hyperplasia problem was a result of not enough days rather than not enough dose. This is an experiment.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of carolyn eganVal...I am wondering how much is the Prometrium dose,and...why for 12 days.....?? I am wondering because,in comparison to the testedstudies done on before the release of the Crinoneproduct, and what it advises for its protocol, whichis that it produces desired results at a dose of only45mg taken only for 10 days.....???I am wondering if 1)taking LESS dose and 2) taking foronly 10 days...will minimize the side effects you areexperiencing. After all, since the hormone is goingright to the target tissue, less amount is needed, ifI am understanding the paragigm correctly,as it is notbeing metabolized through anything else. Remembering the adage "Take the lowest amount for theshortest amount of time that will produce the bestpositive effect"...would still seem to make sense??Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Maybe. See my post to Carolyn about hyperplasia. With oral Prometrium, I have started spotting day 8 or 9. This last month, I stayed with the Prometrium through Day 10. Then, had no period other than that bit of spotting on Day 8. Still experimenting.

Oh, add another symptom of this P cycle - sore breasts starting last night.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodianaI agree, Val. IF you are beginning to get symptoms at day 10, maybe stop the P at that point and see what happens?? When I first began to cycle my P and use E all month (in order to get periods again after 2 years without them)..I began on calendar day 1 of the month. The first two months, I didn't get a period. On the third month, I began getting my period on day 12 of the P, so I would stop it. After that, I found myself getting the period on day 10.....so I began using the P only for 10 days per month and the period always came. maybe 10 days is enough for you??

[Guest guest]

I sure hear you, Val! It surely underscores two

things 1)serum levels alone are not enough to keep

watch over hyperplasia 2) 5 days only every three

months sure as hell is not enough cycling with P to

offset the buildup of E, even tho I too had read of

that regimen, as that is NOT what our body did during

our reproductive years anyway - it gave us a dose of P

EVERY MONTH to offset the E, not every 3 months, for

petey sake!! 3)if Crinone has been pretested,

manufactured, and time tested at 45mg for 10 days,

that should be worth consideration. (They also produce

it in a 8% 90mg form, which is usually used for

maintaining a pregnancy - it was designed and

manufactured for that purpose. I understand that one

can also use the 8% for HRT...but it is the 4% that

was studied in tests as being adequate for HRT...

AS LONG AS WE ARE NOT TAKING MEGA DOSES OF E!!!!

Therein lies the key of balancing E with P so as not

to produce hyperplasia in the first place! It would

seem to me that on WP we were all taking too much E,

as well! No WONDER we " striped up " our endometriums!

xoxoxoCarolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> Carolyn, as of last December, I had endometrial

> hyperplasia (stripe = 13).

> I'm a bit gun shy right now. I had been using 1.5

> mg Estrogel/day plus 50

> mg progesterone suppository for 5 days every thee

> months. I had a bit of

> spotting but not much else. I thought I'd hit the P

> jackpot. Little did I

> know that my lining was growing, growing. I have

> read research that

> supports that regimen. Unfortunately, it didn't

> work for me nor for Sammie,

> also on this list. We both got hyperplasia.

>

> Prometrium is recommended for 10 - 12 days/month at

> 200 mg. I just thought

> I'd be safe and use 12 days. I'm using 100 mg

> because that is the smallest

> dose available. I think half that would work

> (Crinone?). I think my

> hyperplasia problem was a result of not enough days

> rather than not enough

> dose. This is an experiment.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> carolyn egan

>

>

> Val...I am wondering how much is the Prometrium

> dose,

> and...why for 12 days.....??

>

> I am wondering because,in comparison to the tested

> studies done on before the release of the Crinone

> product, and what it advises for its protocol,

> which

> is that it produces desired results at a dose of

> only

> 45mg taken only for 10 days.....???

>

> I am wondering if 1)taking LESS dose and 2) taking

> for

> only 10 days...will minimize the side effects you

> are

> experiencing. After all, since the hormone is

> going

> right to the target tissue, less amount is needed,

> if

> I am understanding the paragigm correctly,as it is

> not

> being metabolized through anything else.

>

> Remembering the adage " Take the lowest amount for

> the

> shortest amount of time that will produce the best

> positive effect " ...would still seem to make

> sense??

> Carolyn

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Val...sore breasts???? Are you taking Prometrium

orally or vaginally??? And, this month, on what

dosage?? Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> Maybe. See my post to Carolyn about hyperplasia.

> With oral Prometrium, I

> have started spotting day 8 or 9. This last month,

> I stayed with the

> Prometrium through Day 10. Then, had no period

> other than that bit of

> spotting on Day 8. Still experimenting.

>

> Oh, add another symptom of this P cycle - sore

> breasts starting last night.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> astrodiana

>

>

> I agree, Val. IF you are beginning to get

> symptoms at day 10, maybe

> stop the P at that point and see what happens??

> When I first began

> to cycle my P and use E all month (in order to get

> periods again

> after 2 years without them)..I began on calendar

> day 1 of the month.

> The first two months, I didn't get a period. On

> the third month, I

> began getting my period on day 12 of the P, so I

> would stop it.

> After that, I found myself getting the period on

> day 10.....so I

> began using the P only for 10 days per month and

> the period always

> came. maybe 10 days is enough for you??

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Yup, sore breasts. I imagine its the P "subduing" the E. That's a typical PMS symptom. In my daughters, sore breasts happen during the lateal phase, just before a period. Prometrium vaginally, 100 mg.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of carolyn eganVal...sore breasts???? Are you taking Prometriumorally or vaginally??? And, this month, on whatdosage?? Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Yah, sure is, Val! I would always get very sore and

swollen breasts around the peak of P on WP. I am

hoping side effect is resultant of higher P in the

Prometrium.

If I get that side effect going from a WP 400mg of

percutaneous P for 14 days down to a mere Crinone 45mg

of vaginal P for 10 days...I will be really pissed!!

;0

Of course, what I am NOT factoring in here is any

residue that we recovering WPers may have left still

in our systems from the fat-stored P. So, maybe that

is a contributing factor adding to the P effect???

Once that P of the WP is finally gone, then maybe we

can be giving the vag-P a more accurate testing!!

Love, Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> Yup, sore breasts. I imagine its the P " subduing "

> the E. That's a typical

> PMS symptom. In my daughters, sore breasts happen

> during the lateal phase,

> just before a period. Prometrium vaginally, 100 mg.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> carolyn egan

>

>

> Val...sore breasts???? Are you taking Prometrium

> orally or vaginally??? And, this month, on what

> dosage?? Carolyn

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>>>>>YES, bout time, the WP P IS a BIG factor........P is still

breaking

> out of many of us, and may for years. That is why some of us are

still using more E, and painting our breasts with iodine, yes

iodine.......sounds wild but does help:)))

YES - you absolutely need to use plenty of E to help rid yourself of

the P - which is why I did that for 3 months (3mg BID) without using

P....only THEN did I go to the low E

[Guest guest]

I had to douche with betadine before my hyst. Not sure what the reason was as they took it out!!!! It wasn't going to get infected.

>>>>>>>>> I escaped that with mine, poor your ( L

[Guest guest]

> Maybe. See my post to Carolyn about hyperplasia. With oral

Prometrium, I

> have started spotting day 8 or 9. This last month, I stayed with the

> Prometrium through Day 10. Then, had no period other than that bit of

> spotting on Day 8. Still experimenting.

>

> Oh, add another symptom of this P cycle - sore breasts starting last

night.

>

> Val

>

See, that's another symptom of high E for me, rather than P...I have

never had sore full breasts except during the very highest E days on

the WP