Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2009 Thank you Kathy ! That is exactly what I asked ! We think alike ---- KathyR wrote: > it could also be a sensory thing..when Danny was a toddler, he rarely kept > his shoes on (he still prefers to not wear shoes in the house, but then, so > do I;-) > I would put his shoes on him when we went somewhere, and by the time I got > him in his car seat and got in the van myself, he would have his shoes and > socks off..he also wouldnt leave a hat on. I don't remember how old he was > when he started leaving his shoes on, but I know he was older than 3. > He wasn't taking his shoes off to misbehave, he just truly couldn't tolerate > having them on for very long then. > and I would be very upset if the people at the school made him walk into > school barefoot..sounds like they are punishing your daughter for something > she really has no control over..seems to me it would be a lot better to work > on getting her to wear her shoes and reward her when she is able to keep > them on rather than punish her when she doesn't. > How did they know she wouldnt step on something and hurt her feet when she > was walking in barefoot? How can they justify letting a child be barefoot in > 15 degree weather? what always bugs me about situations like this is that if > YOU had sent her to school with no shoes, or if you made her walk outside in > the cold without shoes in cold weather (or even on school grounds) they > would have sicced Child Protective Services on you..but somehow, when > 'the school' does stuff like that, it is considered reasonable behavior. > why couldn't they just take a couple of minutes to put her shoes back on her > before she got off the bus? what is so hard about that? > KathyR > > > > > > > > > Yes. she's barefooted 99% of the time as we don't not allow shoes in the > > house. we when go out she usually takes them off in the car too and we have > > been working with her to keep them on. If we distract her she will keep them > > on and if not we talk to her about it and then put them on her. I send her > > to school with velcro shoes as it's easier to put them on than tied shoes. > > > > ---- Dinkins-Borkowski <julie@...<julie%40borkowskifamily.com>> > > wrote: > > > Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > > > > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > > > > > > > > > If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it simply > > > means the river bends. - Enoch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange <DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yahoogroups.\ com> > > > [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange <DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yaho\ ogroups.com>] > > On Behalf Of > > > jhunter5431@... <jhunter5431%40charter.net> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM > > > To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange <DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yahoogroups.\ com> > > > Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > > > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found > > > out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor > > will > > > put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor > > said > > > when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her > > walk > > > into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and > > was > > > told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > > > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the > > school > > > called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked > > to > > > the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and > > > that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked > > her > > > to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the > > Christmas > > > party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an > > > afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being > > > rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the > > > meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and > > said > > > that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to > > > record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then > > found > > > out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold > > > weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought > > in > > > with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the > > > meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized > > and > > > said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > > > > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this > > > meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that > > > time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline > > the > > > teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We > > > feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > > > > > What would you do if this was your child? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2009 We were told that the teacher was trying to teach her a lesson. That if she doesn't have them on, she will go barefooted. ---- Ruby Bowdoin wrote: > You guys all have very good points and I, too, would probably be upset > if this were my child. But, I have to say my first thought when I > read this was that it sounded like what I would do and actually do > with my kids. Not trying to punish them but.... Honestly, in my mind > I'm just thinking shortest distance between two points. I know, most > parents first thought is cold feet. But for myself, I would just get > out of my van and quickly walk to the house rather than taking the > time to put on my shoes. Maybe the teacher really wasn't trying to > punish maybe it was just " hey, lets get inside and then worry about > getting into your shoes " . > Ruby > > > > > it could also be a sensory thing..when Danny was a toddler, he > > rarely kept his shoes on (he still prefers to not wear shoes in the > > house, but then, so do I;-) > > I would put his shoes on him when we went somewhere, and by the > > time I got him in his car seat and got in the van myself, he would > > have his shoes and socks off..he also wouldnt leave a hat on. I > > don't remember how old he was when he started leaving his shoes on, > > but I know he was older than 3. > > He wasn't taking his shoes off to misbehave, he just truly couldn't > > tolerate having them on for very long then. > > and I would be very upset if the people at the school made him walk > > into school barefoot..sounds like they are punishing your daughter > > for something she really has no control over..seems to me it would > > be a lot better to work on getting her to wear her shoes and reward > > her when she is able to keep them on rather than punish her when she > > doesn't. > > How did they know she wouldnt step on something and hurt her feet > > when she was walking in barefoot? How can they justify letting a > > child be barefoot in 15 degree weather? what always bugs me about > > situations like this is that if YOU had sent her to school with no > > shoes, or if you made her walk outside in the cold without shoes in > > cold weather (or even on school grounds) they would have sicced > > Child Protective Services on you..but somehow, when > > 'the school' does stuff like that, it is considered reasonable > > behavior. > > why couldn't they just take a couple of minutes to put her shoes > > back on her before she got off the bus? what is so hard about that? > > KathyR > > > > > > > > > > Yes. she's barefooted 99% of the time as we don't not allow shoes in > > the house. we when go out she usually takes them off in the car too > > and we have been working with her to keep them on. If we distract > > her she will keep them on and if not we talk to her about it and > > then put them on her. I send her to school with velcro shoes as it's > > easier to put them on than tied shoes. > > > > > > ---- Dinkins-Borkowski wrote: > > > Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > > > > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > > > > > > > > > If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it > > simply > > > means the river bends. - Enoch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > > > [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of > > > jhunter5431@... > > > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM > > > To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > > > Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > > > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, > > I found > > > out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The > > monitor will > > > put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the > > monitor said > > > when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has > > her walk > > > into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus > > transportation and was > > > told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > > > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, > > the school > > > called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I > > talked to > > > the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had > > happened and > > > that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I > > asked her > > > to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the > > Christmas > > > party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she > > had an > > > afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my > > husband being > > > rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went > > to the > > > meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she > > apologized and said > > > that this never should have happened. We told her that we were > > going to > > > record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We > > then found > > > out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme > > cold > > > weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then > > brought in > > > with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to > > record the > > > meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher > > apologized and > > > said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > > > > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of > > this > > > meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at > > that > > > time, and we were told that it is not our business how they > > discipline the > > > teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child > > endangerment? We > > > feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > > > > > What would you do if this was your child? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2009 Personally, after what I've been through with schools and my son, I would seriously consider calling the police. A substitute bus driver slammed Tristan into the window and yelled in his face three years ago. Tristan came home crying and had a big red mark on his shoulder. I let the school handle it instead of calling the police and regretted it. They " investigated " and told me, " The bus driver denied it, so it's Tristan's word against his. " I told them it most certainly was NOT Tristan's word against his - lots of kids on the bus had witnessed it, and I wanted something done. They then questioned all the kids and called me back - said he'd apologized and promised me it wouldn't happen again. They wouldn't tell me anything more. I don't know why I didn't call the police - I think it had been several weeks by then and I thought it was too late. I regret that now. But, the bus drivers and supervisors are all very nice to me and watch out for Tristan now. I can't believe they refused to let you record the meeting! We've recorded many. They didn't like it at all, and we were considered " problem parents, " but too bad. Not that it made a big difference, but they certainly didn't like us recording them. All they ever did to us was delay the meeting and get their own recorder and tape it also. I also cannot believe they made your daughter walk barefoot in such cold weather! Even if it weren't cold, she could stub her toe or step on something that would hurt her. That is just not safe at all! If they didn't have time to put her shoes and socks on her for some reason (don't know what that could be), then they should have quickly carried her inside. Just heard this afternoon of a man who stepped on a piece of glass while walking barefoot through security in an airport - he's suing for $500,000! Now that is ridiculous, but he'll probably get it with the way our system works much of the time. I might just mention that to the school. I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. What would you do if this was your child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2009 When my other daughter went there and couldn't walk, she had to ride in a wagon so that the teaches and aides had their hands free to help other children. ---- Dinkins-Borkowski wrote: > Do you think maybe they carry her instead of making her walk? Just a > thought. > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it simply > means the river bends. - Enoch > > > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > _____ > > From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of > jhunter5431@... > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:06 PM > To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > Cc: Dinkins-Borkowski > Subject: RE: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > Yes. she's barefooted 99% of the time as we don't not allow shoes in the > house. we when go out she usually takes them off in the car too and we have > been working with her to keep them on. If we distract her she will keep them > on and if not we talk to her about it and then put them on her. I send her > to school with velcro shoes as it's easier to put them on than tied shoes. > > ---- Dinkins-Borkowski <julie@borkowskifami > <mailto:julie%40borkowskifamily.com> ly.com> wrote: > > Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > > > > > If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it simply > > means the river bends. - Enoch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: DownSyndromeInfoExc > <mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yahoogroups.com> hange > > [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExc > <mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yahoogroups.com> hange ] > On Behalf Of > > jhunter5431@ <mailto:jhunter5431%40charter.net> charter.net > > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM > > To: DownSyndromeInfoExc > <mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange%40yahoogroups.com> hange > > Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found > > out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor > will > > put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said > > when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her > walk > > into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and > was > > told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the > school > > called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to > > the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and > > that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked > her > > to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas > > party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an > > afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being > > rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the > > meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and > said > > that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to > > record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found > > out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold > > weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in > > with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the > > meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized > and > > said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this > > meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that > > time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the > > teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We > > feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > > > What would you do if this was your child? > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 18, 2009 I would definitely switch to tied shoes. If she is taking them off all the time at home she is probably doing the same at school. I would want the teachers to be focusing on academics at school, not putting shoes on all day long. My two year old does the same thing and it stopped when we put her in tied shoes, double knotted. Blessings, Kris > Yes. she's barefooted 99% of the time as we don't not allow shoes in the > house. we when go out she usually takes them off in the car too and we > have been working with her to keep them on. If we distract her she will > keep them on and if not we talk to her about it and then put them on her. > I send her to school with velcro shoes as it's easier to put them on than > tied shoes. > > ---- Dinkins-Borkowski wrote: >> Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? >> >> >> >> >> >> Nolan-6 >> >> Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 >> >> >> >> If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it simply >> means the river bends. - Enoch >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lipstick >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange >> [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of >> jhunter5431@... >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange >> Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] >> >> >> >> >> >> I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: >> This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found >> out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor >> will >> put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor >> said >> when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her >> walk >> into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and >> was >> told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. >> I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the >> school >> called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked >> to >> the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and >> that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked >> her >> to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the >> Christmas >> party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an >> afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being >> rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the >> meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and >> said >> that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to >> record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then >> found >> out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold >> weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought >> in >> with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the >> meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized >> and >> said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. >> >> My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this >> meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that >> time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline >> the >> teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We >> feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. >> >> What would you do if this was your child? >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > 1. Anything suggested on this site or opinions offered are not intended to > be medical or pharmaceutical advice or otherwise take the place of your > physicians orders, nor to diagnose or treat your specific health problems. > Please discuss all methods of treatment with your practitioner. > > 2 *****WARNING: Flames and inappropriate treatment of other members on > this list will NOT be tolerated. > > 3. Our HOME page is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DownSyndromeInfoExchange > where all archived posts as well as photos,links, files, articles etc. are > found. You " MUST " have a Yahoo ID and pass word to enter it. > > > To contact Kathy, owner & moderator > kathy_r@... > > To contact , owner & moderator > noliptoday@... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 18, 2009 She will take off her tied shoes as well. IN school she doesn't take them off. She only takes them off during the ride to and from school. Coming home (different driver and monitor) they have no problem with her taking them off. Once at the driving way, monitor puts them back on! ---- Kris Delaney wrote: > I would definitely switch to tied shoes. If she is taking them off all the > time at home she is probably doing the same at school. I would want the > teachers to be focusing on academics at school, not putting shoes on all day > long. My two year old does the same thing and it stopped when we put her in > tied shoes, double knotted. Blessings, Kris > > > > Yes. she's barefooted 99% of the time as we don't not allow shoes in the > > house. we when go out she usually takes them off in the car too and we > > have been working with her to keep them on. If we distract her she will > > keep them on and if not we talk to her about it and then put them on her. > > I send her to school with velcro shoes as it's easier to put them on than > > tied shoes. > > > > ---- Dinkins-Borkowski wrote: > >> Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Nolan-6 > >> > >> Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > >> > >> > >> > >> If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it simply > >> means the river bends. - Enoch > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Lipstick > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > >> [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of > >> jhunter5431@... > >> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM > >> To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > >> Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > >> This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found > >> out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor > >> will > >> put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor > >> said > >> when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her > >> walk > >> into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and > >> was > >> told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > >> I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the > >> school > >> called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked > >> to > >> the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and > >> that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked > >> her > >> to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the > >> Christmas > >> party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an > >> afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being > >> rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the > >> meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and > >> said > >> that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to > >> record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then > >> found > >> out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold > >> weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought > >> in > >> with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the > >> meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized > >> and > >> said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > >> > >> My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this > >> meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that > >> time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline > >> the > >> teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We > >> feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > >> > >> What would you do if this was your child? > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > 1. Anything suggested on this site or opinions offered are not intended to > > be medical or pharmaceutical advice or otherwise take the place of your > > physicians orders, nor to diagnose or treat your specific health problems. > > Please discuss all methods of treatment with your practitioner. > > > > 2 *****WARNING: Flames and inappropriate treatment of other members on > > this list will NOT be tolerated. > > > > 3. Our HOME page is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DownSyndromeInfoExchange > > where all archived posts as well as photos,links, files, articles etc. are > > found. You " MUST " have a Yahoo ID and pass word to enter it. > > > > > > To contact Kathy, owner & moderator > > kathy_r@... > > > > To contact , owner & moderator > > noliptoday@... > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 18, 2009 This also happened with my son. The teacher was trying to use natural consequences to teach your daughter a lesson. Same principle as making a child walk to school if he/she misses the bus. It's called " tough love " . had to get off the bus with bare feet in snow because he didn't keep his shoes on. I don't think my behavorial therapist would think that this would be a wrong practice. The point is: you are the parent and have to be in agreement with it. The error that I see here is that the teacher took it upon herself to initiate this w/o consulting you first. By the way, making my son walk in the snow with bare feet didn't really seem to stop the problem. It's a little interesting, thinking about the recent norepinephrine study where the DS mice with NE deficiencies didn't respond well to fear conditioning. I think you can apply the same lack of reasoning to our kids. They have major problems with contextual learning. Marsha > > > > Does your daughter take her shoes off at home? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nolan-6 > > > > > > > > Phoebe Ds & Cf-4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends, it > > > simply > > > > means the river bends. - Enoch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lipstick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > > > > [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of > > > > jhunter5431@... > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 PM > > > > To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > > > > Subject: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > > > > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, > > > I found > > > > out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The > > > monitor will > > > > put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the > > > monitor said > > > > when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has > > > her walk > > > > into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus > > > transportation and was > > > > told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > > > > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, > > > the school > > > > called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I > > > talked to > > > > the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had > > > happened and > > > > that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I > > > asked her > > > > to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the > > > Christmas > > > > party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she > > > had an > > > > afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my > > > husband being > > > > rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went > > > to the > > > > meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she > > > apologized and said > > > > that this never should have happened. We told her that we were > > > going to > > > > record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We > > > then found > > > > out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme > > > cold > > > > weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then > > > brought in > > > > with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to > > > record the > > > > meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher > > > apologized and > > > > said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > > > > > > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of > > > this > > > > meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at > > > that > > > > time, and we were told that it is not our business how they > > > discipline the > > > > teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child > > > endangerment? We > > > > feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > > > > > > > What would you do if this was your child? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 20, 2009  I only had to do this ONE Time and my son stopped taking his shoes off...I took clear 3 inch wide packing tape, put him in blue jeans, and started wrapping the tape around teh shoe, then up the leg (not too tight) around the botton of the pants about 1/4 of the way up the calf area....I told him the next day that I would not tape his shoes on as long as he didn't take them off,...but if he took them off again, he would get the tape again. Problem solved. , Mom to 16, DS, Southern California"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it!"-------Chas Diagnosis Down Syndrome: A Site of Hope for New Parents or Parents with a Prenatal Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/What to Say to Parents of a Child with a Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/speech.html [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue:This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher "rattled" since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. What would you do if this was your child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 20, 2009 how old was he?   I only had to do this ONE Time and my son stopped taking his shoes off...I took clear 3 inch wide packing tape, put him in blue jeans, and started wrapping the tape around teh shoe, then up the leg (not too tight) around the botton of the pants about 1/4 of the way up the calf area....I told him the next day that I would not tape his shoes on as long as he didn't take them off,...but if he took them off again, he would get the tape again. Problem solved.  , Mom to 16, DS, Southern California " People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it! " -------Chas  Diagnosis Down Syndrome: A Site of Hope for New Parents or Parents with a Prenatal Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/What to Say to Parents of a Child with a Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/speech.html [DownSyndromeInfoExchange]  I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue:This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. What would you do if this was your child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 20, 2009  4 years old. I also sent the tape to school and gave the teacher written permission to put it on if he took his shoes off in class...she just kept the roll on her desk and that was enough of a deterrant...he hated having that tape on all day--loud when he walked, and pretty uncomfortable I am sure! , Mom to 16, DS, Southern California"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it!"-------Chas Diagnosis Down Syndrome: A Site of Hope for New Parents or Parents with a Prenatal Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/What to Say to Parents of a Child with a Diagnosishttp://www.leeworks.net/DDS/speech.html [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue:This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher "rattled" since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. What would you do if this was your child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 21, 2009 Hi, I am new to this Group and coming in to this message after many replies. I had this issue when my 11 year old son was younger. We solved it by having him wear Converse High Top Shoes. They give him great ankle support, the laces are too involved for him to bother and the other kids think they look very hip. Hope this helps. Teri Voorhes Mom of two great kids (11)DS and Max (9)Asperger's Pacifica, CA > > >  > > I only had to do this ONE Time and my son stopped taking his shoes off...I took clear 3 inch wide packing tape, put him in blue jeans, and started wrapping the tape around teh shoe, then up the leg (not too tight) around the botton of the pants about 1/4 of the way up the calf area....I told him the next day that I would not tape his shoes on as long as he didn't take them off,...but if he took them off again, he would get the tape again. > Problem solved. > > , Mom to 16, DS, Southern California > " People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it! " > -------Chas > > > Diagnosis Down Syndrome: A Site of Hope for New Parents or Parents with a Prenatal Diagnosis > http://www.leeworks.net/DDS/ > What to Say to Parents of a Child with a Diagnosis > http://www.leeworks.net/DDS/speech.html > [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > What would you do if this was your child? > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 21, 2009 I went out and bought her a pair of them yesterday. No issues with the shoes today!! To bad the teacher didn't think of this before she punished my daughter and made her walk at least 35 feet from bus to door and then all the way to her classroom ! It was not safe for her to be barefooted outside or even inside and the floors are always dirty from peoples shoes. ---- teriryan13 wrote: > Hi, > I am new to this Group and coming in to this message after many replies. I had this issue when my 11 year old son was younger. We solved it by having him wear Converse High Top Shoes. They give him great ankle support, the laces are too involved for him to bother and the other kids think they look very hip. Hope this helps. > > Teri Voorhes > Mom of two great kids (11)DS and Max (9)Asperger's > Pacifica, CA > > > > > > > >  > > > > I only had to do this ONE Time and my son stopped taking his shoes off...I took clear 3 inch wide packing tape, put him in blue jeans, and started wrapping the tape around teh shoe, then up the leg (not too tight) around the botton of the pants about 1/4 of the way up the calf area....I told him the next day that I would not tape his shoes on as long as he didn't take them off,...but if he took them off again, he would get the tape again. > > Problem solved. > > > > , Mom to 16, DS, Southern California > > " People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it! " > > -------Chas > > > > > > Diagnosis Down Syndrome: A Site of Hope for New Parents or Parents with a Prenatal Diagnosis > > http://www.leeworks.net/DDS/ > > What to Say to Parents of a Child with a Diagnosis > > http://www.leeworks.net/DDS/speech.html > > [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] > > > > > > > > I would like everyone's opinions on this following issue: > > This morning while I put my 3 yr. old daughter on the school bus, I found out that she is once again taking off her shoes and socks. The monitor will put them on her but she continues to take them off. Today the monitor said when they get to school, the teachers aide gets her of bus and has her walk into school without shoes and socks on. I called bus transportation and was told that once the bus is at school the teachers are in charge. > > I contacted her dad and discussed it with him. Right after that, the school called me as bus transportation contacted them regarding this. I talked to the Special Ed. Coordinator and she was sorry that this had happened and that she questioned the teacher and it had happened only 1 time. I asked her to arrange a meeting and she said it could take place before the Christmas party or after but she didn't want the teacher " rattled " since she had an afternoon class to teach. They had no issues with me and my husband being rattled. My husband parked his semi in a parking lot and we went to the meeting. We met first with the Sp Ed Coordinator and she apologized and said that this never should have happened. We told her that we were going to record the meeting and all that was said would be on record. We then found out that this occured not once, not twice, but 3 times in extreme cold weather (one morning it was 15 degrees).!! The teacher was then brought in with another employee and we were told we were not allowed to record the meeting that we had to go to CEO for permission. The teacher apologized and said it would not happen again. This is all that was said. > > > > My question to you all, we are not satisified with the outcome of this meeting, no disciplinary action was taken against this teacher, at that time, and we were told that it is not our business how they discipline the teachers. Should we go the police or attorney for child endangerment? We feel that the school is just cover it up and put it under the rug. > > > > What would you do if this was your child? > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 22, 2009 I have dealt with this issue by buying slip on boots. I would continue to discourage her from taking her shoes off on the bus but also have a pair of cheap light weight slip on’s for the teacher to quickly put on her and get her into the building. Our kids would always take their shoes off when we would go shopping. I have one that is still at THAT age. I have a pair of slip ons I can quickly put on him. It is no fun standing out in the rain or cold trying to get SMO’s and high top shoes back on a kid. Lee Ann Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 22, 2009 that is a clever idea! I have dealt with this issue by buying slip on boots. I would continue to discourage her from taking her shoes off on the bus but also have a pair of cheap light weight slip on’s for the teacher to quickly put on her and get her into the building. Our kids would always take their shoes off when we would go shopping. I have one that is still at THAT age. I have a pair of slip ons I can quickly put on him. It is no fun standing out in the rain or cold trying to get SMO’s and high top shoes back on a kid. Lee Ann Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 22, 2009 She had easy shoes to get back on (that was the reason I sent easy shoes to put on her) but the teacher refused to put them on her. Now she can deal with high tops if my daughter takes them off. ---- KathyR wrote: > that is a clever idea! > > > > > > > > > *I have dealt with this issue by buying slip on boots. I would continue > > to discourage her from taking her shoes off on the bus but also have a pair > > of cheap light weight slip on’s for the teacher to quickly put on her and > > get her into the building. * > > > > *Our kids would always take their shoes off when we would go shopping. I > > have one that is still at THAT age. I have a pair of slip ons I can quickly > > put on him. It is no fun standing out in the rain or cold trying to get > > SMO’s and high top shoes back on a kid. * > > > > *Lee** Ann** * > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 23, 2009 this is really intriguing, Sue...ok to pass it on to some other listservs?kathyR Tuesday, December 22, 2009 Step 1 " The Dream " Step 1 in the Path Process is " The Dream " . Dreaming for most of us is easy...we just do it. But the process of dreaming for Sam had me feeling a little uneasy. It's as if I was daring to dream. Dreams of friendships, employment, independence, happiness, college have all spun around in my mind many times but they never quite gained a solid footing. I couldn't quite wrap my mind around these dreams. And yet, when I sat with my family, friends and supporters of Sam we hit on all these areas and more. As the " Mom " and Path facilitator I often had to take a step back, let go of my fears and truly dare to dream. I like the Path process because it leaves you with a visual image of the dream which is what Sam is holding. I look at this page of the process often to encourage me and keep me focused. We dreamed about Sam living independently. Wow, that alone is a big step for me. We discussed the possibility of Sam living with another person with a physical disability but not a cognitive one and that they could help each other out therefore not feeling like a burden to anyone. We discussed Sam living with a friend in a duplex with a support person or family living next to them for a reduced rent. It was really amazing to brain storm about all the possible situations and how we could help others while at the same time helping Sam. During this process we also talked about Sam's gifts. What does Sam bring to the picture?? I'm sure most of the people present could attest to the fact that knowing Sam has changed their life in some way. His smile, his laughter, in a very simple sense...his presence has touched so many people. No one will forget Sam singing " Jesus Loves Me " or the amazing smile he had on his face as he sang " Happy Birthday " . As I looked around the room, his smile and excitement was just contagious...everyone was smiling, everyone was taking a picture of that moment, a moment of sheer joy that will be with them forever. This little boy who has overcome so much, who on a daily basis has more hurdles than you or I could imagine just emits pure joy. We dreamed about Sam learning to care and cook for himself, driving his own jet ski, even.....(big breath here) driving his own vehicle and if not driving then arranging his own transportation. We dreamed about his involvement with his church, Special Olympics, team sports and a music group. We dreamed of his friendships, a girlfriend (yes, that was another deep breath) and his love of travelling. We dreamed about college and what that might look like. Yes, I said the word " college " . We dreamed about possible employment options for Sam. My brother and I both gave examples of when we have seen Sam show pride in his accomplishments. My example was something that happened recently at the shop. My husband has his own heating and air conditioning company and Sam lives to go to work there. But I asked, what would a job look like for Sam. One weekend, a month or so ago, I stopped at the shop to check up on my boys, all 3 of them were there. Ben was working on his recyclables and Jeff and Sam were washing vehicles. Sam wanted to wash my car. While I sat in my car, Sam worked with his Dad, soaping his brush in the water pail and then lifting it to the side of my car and scrubbing. To most people that would not have been a big event, but for me...watching Sam lift this heavy brush to scrub knowing what I do about his muscle tone, his right side weakness and his sensory issues I could only smile. To watch him use his right hand to control the pressure washer as he pressed with his left hand simply amazed me, I couldn't have come up with a better PT or OT exercise if I tried. But what really grabbed my heart was the look of accomplishment on his face, the pride he took in knowing he was helping his Dad out with something that had to be done. My brother gave the example of him picking up Sam from the shop and unloading branches from his truck. Dave also saw that look of pride as he was doing something that mattered and really that is what we hope to arrange for Sam. A job where he can feel and sense his accomplishment. My brother in law always dreamed of Sam being a caretaker for an apartment building that he and my husband would build and own. We talked about what that would all entail and the skill sets Sam would have to have. We talked about Sam possibly taking over Ben's recycling job and what skills he would have to have to do it. I think the neatest thing for me as a parent was to just talk openly and honestly and to dream again. It was exciting, it was scary, it was challenging. But one thought, one idea that just kept coming through is that we need to take baby steps, small steps forward and the next part of the process was developing some of those steps. This dream is our dream for Sam, it is not solid or finite, it will change and it will weave around what Sam's dreams are. As he matures and has more of a say in things, this Path will become his Path, what he wants, what he is interested in and what he wants to do. Sue Mayer Mom to Sam (9) with Down syndrome, Brain Injury, Apraxia, Dysphagia, Respiratory/Immune Issues and Bi-Lateral Conductive Hearing Loss or as I like to say “Yada, Yada,Yada” www.suemayer-specialneedsmom.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 24, 2009 Yes, that would be fine. Sue Mayer Mom to Sam (9) with Down syndrome, Brain Injury, Apraxia, Dysphagia, Respiratory/Immune Issues and Bi-Lateral Conductive Hearing Loss or as I like to say “Yada, Yada,Yada” www.suemayer-specialneedsmom.blogspot.com From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of KathyR Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:49 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] this is really intriguing, Sue...ok to pass it on to some other listservs? kathyR Tuesday, December 22, 2009 Step 1 " The Dream " Step 1 in the Path Process is " The Dream " . Dreaming for most of us is easy...we just do it. But the process of dreaming for Sam had me feeling a little uneasy. It's as if I was daring to dream. Dreams of friendships, employment, independence, happiness, college have all spun around in my mind many times but they never quite gained a solid footing. I couldn't quite wrap my mind around these dreams. And yet, when I sat with my family, friends and supporters of Sam we hit on all these areas and more. As the " Mom " and Path facilitator I often had to take a step back, let go of my fears and truly dare to dream. I like the Path process because it leaves you with a visual image of the dream which is what Sam is holding. I look at this page of the process often to encourage me and keep me focused. We dreamed about Sam living independently. Wow, that alone is a big step for me. We discussed the possibility of Sam living with another person with a physical disability but not a cognitive one and that they could help each other out therefore not feeling like a burden to anyone. We discussed Sam living with a friend in a duplex with a support person or family living next to them for a reduced rent. It was really amazing to brain storm about all the possible situations and how we could help others while at the same time helping Sam. During this process we also talked about Sam's gifts. What does Sam bring to the picture?? I'm sure most of the people present could attest to the fact that knowing Sam has changed their life in some way. His smile, his laughter, in a very simple sense...his presence has touched so many people. No one will forget Sam singing " Jesus Loves Me " or the amazing smile he had on his face as he sang " Happy Birthday " . As I looked around the room, his smile and excitement was just contagious...everyone was smiling, everyone was taking a picture of that moment, a moment of sheer joy that will be with them forever. This little boy who has overcome so much, who on a daily basis has more hurdles than you or I could imagine just emits pure joy. We dreamed about Sam learning to care and cook for himself, driving his own jet ski, even.....(big breath here) driving his own vehicle and if not driving then arranging his own transportation. We dreamed about his involvement with his church, Special Olympics, team sports and a music group. We dreamed of his friendships, a girlfriend (yes, that was another deep breath) and his love of travelling. We dreamed about college and what that might look like. Yes, I said the word " college " . We dreamed about possible employment options for Sam. My brother and I both gave examples of when we have seen Sam show pride in his accomplishments. My example was something that happened recently at the shop. My husband has his own heating and air conditioning company and Sam lives to go to work there. But I asked, what would a job look like for Sam. One weekend, a month or so ago, I stopped at the shop to check up on my boys, all 3 of them were there. Ben was working on his recyclables and Jeff and Sam were washing vehicles. Sam wanted to wash my car. While I sat in my car, Sam worked with his Dad, soaping his brush in the water pail and then lifting it to the side of my car and scrubbing. To most people that would not have been a big event, but for me...watching Sam lift this heavy brush to scrub knowing what I do about his muscle tone, his right side weakness and his sensory issues I could only smile. To watch him use his right hand to control the pressure washer as he pressed with his left hand simply amazed me, I couldn't have come up with a better PT or OT exercise if I tried. But what really grabbed my heart was the look of accomplishment on his face, the pride he took in knowing he was helping his Dad out with something that had to be done. My brother gave the example of him picking up Sam from the shop and unloading branches from his truck. Dave also saw that look of pride as he was doing something that mattered and really that is what we hope to arrange for Sam. A job where he can feel and sense his accomplishment. My brother in law always dreamed of Sam being a caretaker for an apartment building that he and my husband would build and own. We talked about what that would all entail and the skill sets Sam would have to have. We talked about Sam possibly taking over Ben's recycling job and what skills he would have to have to do it. I think the neatest thing for me as a parent was to just talk openly and honestly and to dream again. It was exciting, it was scary, it was challenging. But one thought, one idea that just kept coming through is that we need to take baby steps, small steps forward and the next part of the process was developing some of those steps. This dream is our dream for Sam, it is not solid or finite, it will change and it will weave around what Sam's dreams are. As he matures and has more of a say in things, this Path will become his Path, what he wants, what he is interested in and what he wants to do. Sue Mayer Mom to Sam (9) with Down syndrome, Brain Injury, Apraxia, Dysphagia, Respiratory/Immune Issues and Bi-Lateral Conductive Hearing Loss or as I like to say “Yada, Yada,Yada” www.suemayer-specialneedsmom.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Hi I would tend to lean toward the shoulder as the culprit with this dog. I have had some with a similar history, and the fact that there is a 15 degree discrepancy in abduction from side to side and the decreased caudal glide all fit the picture. The abduction wouldn’t have to be painful, if it were chronic already, and I have found that some dogs seem to slightly sublux their humeral heads – sometimes cranially or laterally... which can resolve with either a caudal glide of the humeral head with the shoulder in extension or with testing of abduction (again with the shoulder in extension). My own dogs have some instabilities and will occasionally limp when transitioning down from a trot to a walk, I mob/manip their shoulders and it normalizes. Your long term plan of action, if you think this is the case, is to work on stabilization exercises – working balance/coordination (3-leg stands with perturbations, diagonal leg stands – progressing to uneven surfaces, etc...) In some instances I show owners some simple mobs (maybe traction) for the shoulder joint and or doing ROM (extension) which can sometimes get an auto-manip from the joint. Beyond that, if the problem is bad enough and impacting function and life, there is always surgery. J My thoughts anyways. Cheers, Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt (Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT The Canine Fitness Centre Ltd, Calgary, AB, CANADA From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Jeannie Pavlakos Sent: May-05-10 11:29 AM To: VetRehab Subject: Hi all, I have a case I would love any input on: 7 y.o. Collie Hx: Intermittant RFL lameness after rough play with other dogs and occasionally after rest Participates in herding without lameness Exam: Cervical spine: slight tightness ® C7 and intermittant, (L) OA tightness- resolves with mobs Scap: slightly decreased caudal glide with some muscular crepitus at the cranial scap border- resolves with massage and stretching Shoulder: ® abduction angle approx 45 deg (L=30), but no pain or spasm on testing, ROM WNL except intermittant slightly reduced extension, resolves with stretching Elbow ROM NL and painfee Capus ROM NL and painfee with elbow extended but carpal flexion painful if entire limb flexed - Mobilization of each carpal and MTC bones painfee, toes same Thoracic spine NL Intermittant S-I tightness ® > (L), resolves with mobs and stretching Primary finding/ pain reproduction: Accessory carpal bone tight with medial glide compared to left and painful to palpation and mobs and pain with carpal flexion if limb in full flex Neuro NL Rads of Cerv spine NL, No limb rads taken I am lasering the carpus and accessory carpal bone and mob/stretch the tight areas (spine/pelvis/limb) as they crop up but we do not seem to be getting to the root of the problem. Any thoughts would be appreciated Jean Pavlakos, PT, CCRP __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5089 (20100505) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5089 (20100505) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 I am amazed and envious of the manual skills PTs possess and have to plead my ignorance on interpreting many of the comments you and Laurie have made! However, I do agree with Laurie about the significance of abduction measurements that could indicate some degree of medial shoulder instability (MSI). Sherman Canapp presented on this subject at the last rehab symposium and I often reference the proceedings concerning this subject. In addition to previous comments I will often localize pain response in MSI patient is the muscles that attempt to stabilize the dysfunctional shoulder joint, especially the m. subscapularis, m. infraspinatus, m. deltoids and m. triceps(long head) and to less degree m. supraspinatus. Pain can often be appreciated on deep palpation in the area of the medial glenohumeral ligament as well. In milder case hobbles combined w/ appropriate rehabilitation may resolve the issue however surgery may eventually be required. A confirmed diagnosis is alway helpful but unfortunately MRI is probably of little benefit in the chronic patient leaving arthroscopic exploration the preferred diagnostic tool. Rick Wall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Laurie and Rick, Thanks for the replys. I have been suspect of that shoulder from the beginning but Stryker was evaluated by a well respected Ortho Specialist in the area and he felt since there was no pain or spasm the asymmetry was not an issue. The owner has reported she felt a "clunk" in the shoulder a couple times stretching him into extension at home, though I have not been able to reproduce it. This would coincide with what you said Laurie. I will check the area muscles again for trigger points. Also when I take just the shoulder into full flexion there is no reaction, only if I add elbow and carpal flexion so the carpal accessory pain and tightness got me on a different track:( The dog has also in the past been an agility dog but not for over a year. Thanks again Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Rick Wall, DVMSent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 12:21 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: I am amazed and envious of the manual skills PTs possess and have to plead my ignorance on interpreting many of the comments you and Laurie have made! However, I do agree with Laurie about the significance of abduction measurements that could indicate some degree of medial shoulder instability (MSI). Sherman Canapp presented on this subject at the last rehab symposium and I often reference the proceedings concerning this subject. In addition to previous comments I will often localize pain response in MSI patient is the muscles that attempt to stabilize the dysfunctional shoulder joint, especially the m. subscapularis, m. infraspinatus, m. deltoids and m. triceps(long head) and to less degree m. supraspinatus. Pain can often be appreciated on deep palpation in the area of the medial glenohumeral ligament as well. In milder case hobbles combined w/ appropriate rehabilitation may resolve the issue however surgery may eventually be required. A confirmed diagnosis is alway helpful but unfortunately MRI is probably of little benefit in the chronic patient leaving arthroscopic exploration the preferred diagnostic tool.Rick Wall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 I would say that when they become chronic or in cases where you suspect a 3rd degree tear, there can be minimal pain on testing or palpation. I had one that was capable of 90 degrees abduction (no kidding!), who was not painful with any test or on palpation at the 1 month post injury phase. She is now fully rehabbed – a 10 yo standard poodle, and for her degree of activity – (running in park), she has no issues. The more you see the more surprises you encounter! This one had me flabbergast! Laurie From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Jeannie Pavlakos Sent: May-06-10 11:31 AM To: VetRehab Subject: RE: Laurie and Rick, Thanks for the replys. I have been suspect of that shoulder from the beginning but Stryker was evaluated by a well respected Ortho Specialist in the area and he felt since there was no pain or spasm the asymmetry was not an issue. The owner has reported she felt a " clunk " in the shoulder a couple times stretching him into extension at home, though I have not been able to reproduce it. This would coincide with what you said Laurie. I will check the area muscles again for trigger points. Also when I take just the shoulder into full flexion there is no reaction, only if I add elbow and carpal flexion so the carpal accessory pain and tightness got me on a different track:( The dog has also in the past been an agility dog but not for over a year. Thanks again Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Rick Wall, DVM Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 12:21 PM To: VetRehab Subject: Re: I am amazed and envious of the manual skills PTs possess and have to plead my ignorance on interpreting many of the comments you and Laurie have made! However, I do agree with Laurie about the significance of abduction measurements that could indicate some degree of medial shoulder instability (MSI). Sherman Canapp presented on this subject at the last rehab symposium and I often reference the proceedings concerning this subject. In addition to previous comments I will often localize pain response in MSI patient is the muscles that attempt to stabilize the dysfunctional shoulder joint, especially the m. subscapularis, m. infraspinatus, m. deltoids and m. triceps(long head) and to less degree m. supraspinatus. Pain can often be appreciated on deep palpation in the area of the medial glenohumeral ligament as well. In milder case hobbles combined w/ appropriate rehabilitation may resolve the issue however surgery may eventually be required. A confirmed diagnosis is alway helpful but unfortunately MRI is probably of little benefit in the chronic patient leaving arthroscopic exploration the preferred diagnostic tool. Rick Wall __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5092 (20100506) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 Laurie, WOW...Did the poodle have surgery or did you treat her conservatively? Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Laurie Edge-Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:53 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: I would say that when they become chronic or in cases where you suspect a 3rd degree tear, there can be minimal pain on testing or palpation. I had one that was capable of 90 degrees abduction (no kidding!), who was not painful with any test or on palpation at the 1 month post injury phase. She is now fully rehabbed – a 10 yo standard poodle, and for her degree of activity – (running in park), she has no issues. The more you see the more surprises you encounter! This one had me flabbergast! Laurie From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Jeannie PavlakosSent: May-06-10 11:31 AMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: Laurie and Rick, Thanks for the replys. I have been suspect of that shoulder from the beginning but Stryker was evaluated by a well respected Ortho Specialist in the area and he felt since there was no pain or spasm the asymmetry was not an issue. The owner has reported she felt a "clunk" in the shoulder a couple times stretching him into extension at home, though I have not been able to reproduce it. This would coincide with what you said Laurie. I will check the area muscles again for trigger points. Also when I take just the shoulder into full flexion there is no reaction, only if I add elbow and carpal flexion so the carpal accessory pain and tightness got me on a different track:( The dog has also in the past been an agility dog but not for over a year. Thanks again Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Rick Wall, DVMSent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 12:21 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: I am amazed and envious of the manual skills PTs possess and have to plead my ignorance on interpreting many of the comments you and Laurie have made! However, I do agree with Laurie about the significance of abduction measurements that could indicate some degree of medial shoulder instability (MSI). Sherman Canapp presented on this subject at the last rehab symposium and I often reference the proceedings concerning this subject. In addition to previous comments I will often localize pain response in MSI patient is the muscles that attempt to stabilize the dysfunctional shoulder joint, especially the m. subscapularis, m. infraspinatus, m. deltoids and m. triceps(long head) and to less degree m. supraspinatus. Pain can often be appreciated on deep palpation in the area of the medial glenohumeral ligament as well. In milder case hobbles combined w/ appropriate rehabilitation may resolve the issue however surgery may eventually be required. A confirmed diagnosis is alway helpful but unfortunately MRI is probably of little benefit in the chronic patient leaving arthroscopic exploration the preferred diagnostic tool.Rick Wall __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5092 (20100506) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2010 It blew me away! I had coached the owner that surgery was likely going to be necessary...but the dog proved me wrong. No surgery and I can still abduct her front leg to a point of queasiness in my stomach – but no lameness, no problems! Laurie From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Jeannie Pavlakos Sent: May-06-10 1:01 PM To: VetRehab Subject: RE: Laurie, WOW...Did the poodle have surgery or did you treat her conservatively? Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Laurie Edge- Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:53 PM To: VetRehab Subject: RE: I would say that when they become chronic or in cases where you suspect a 3rd degree tear, there can be minimal pain on testing or palpation. I had one that was capable of 90 degrees abduction (no kidding!), who was not painful with any test or on palpation at the 1 month post injury phase. She is now fully rehabbed – a 10 yo standard poodle, and for her degree of activity – (running in park), she has no issues. The more you see the more surprises you encounter! This one had me flabbergast! Laurie From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Jeannie Pavlakos Sent: May-06-10 11:31 AM To: VetRehab Subject: RE: Laurie and Rick, Thanks for the replys. I have been suspect of that shoulder from the beginning but Stryker was evaluated by a well respected Ortho Specialist in the area and he felt since there was no pain or spasm the asymmetry was not an issue. The owner has reported she felt a " clunk " in the shoulder a couple times stretching him into extension at home, though I have not been able to reproduce it. This would coincide with what you said Laurie. I will check the area muscles again for trigger points. Also when I take just the shoulder into full flexion there is no reaction, only if I add elbow and carpal flexion so the carpal accessory pain and tightness got me on a different track:( The dog has also in the past been an agility dog but not for over a year. Thanks again Jean From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of Rick Wall, DVM Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 12:21 PM To: VetRehab Subject: Re: I am amazed and envious of the manual skills PTs possess and have to plead my ignorance on interpreting many of the comments you and Laurie have made! However, I do agree with Laurie about the significance of abduction measurements that could indicate some degree of medial shoulder instability (MSI). Sherman Canapp presented on this subject at the last rehab symposium and I often reference the proceedings concerning this subject. In addition to previous comments I will often localize pain response in MSI patient is the muscles that attempt to stabilize the dysfunctional shoulder joint, especially the m. subscapularis, m. infraspinatus, m. deltoids and m. triceps(long head) and to less degree m. supraspinatus. Pain can often be appreciated on deep palpation in the area of the medial glenohumeral ligament as well. In milder case hobbles combined w/ appropriate rehabilitation may resolve the issue however surgery may eventually be required. A confirmed diagnosis is alway helpful but unfortunately MRI is probably of little benefit in the chronic patient leaving arthroscopic exploration the preferred diagnostic tool. Rick Wall __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5092 (20100506) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5092 (20100506) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5092 (20100506) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2010 I have been very interested in all of the talk about athletic conditioning. I have been doing rehab. now for a couple of years, but primarily on post surgical cases, arthritis, and weight loss. I am trying to open things up a bit and gain knowledge on all of our athletes. I have recently joined a local flyball team with my two cattle dogs, and I am in the beginning stages of training. I decided the best way for me to learn more, and get my name out there was to get involved. My boss is actually helping to pay for the initial training sessions because he too agrees. I had a Bull mastiff breeder contact me just last week to assist in conditioning of her dogs, and to be honest I am a bit nervous getting started. Any additional advice to get this part of my program going is appreciated. I know I can handle the situation, but also know these are high dollar dogs with intelligent owners, and I just want to give them the best that I can. Thanks! Amy Waggoner R.V.T. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2010 first question is what are you conditioning for and second are there specific deficits that the client is concerned with? Our clinic treats performance dogs from different areas, some just want general help with conditioning and injury prevention while others have specific concerns about performance or conformation. Once you have isolated the reasons you have been contacted, I have found that it is much easier to address the case individually based on distinct goals which is far less stressful for me. Not much in the way of actual help but hope it at least narrows your concerns to a more manageable level. rhea I have been very interested in all of the talk about athletic conditioning. I have been doing rehab. now for a couple of years, but primarily on post surgical cases, arthritis, and weight loss. I am trying to open things up a bit and gain knowledge on all of our athletes. I have recently joined a local flyball team with my two cattle dogs, and I am in the beginning stages of training. I decided the best way for me to learn more, and get my name out there was to get involved. My boss is actually helping to pay for the initial training sessions because he too agrees. I had a Bull mastiff breeder contact me just last week to assist in conditioning of her dogs, and to be honest I am a bit nervous getting started. Any additional advice to get this part of my program going is appreciated. I know I can handle the situation, but also know these are high dollar dogs with intelligent owners, and I just want to give them the best that I can. Thanks! Amy Waggoner R.V.T. -- Rhea McHughCanine Rehabilitation and Performance Enhancement TechnicianHillside Veterinary Hospital 1700 Kings Road BC V8R 2P1www.hillsidevethospital.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
