Zinc

June 24, 2004

i don't need arrogance, if you think you have it so right then tell

someone else

> > > > > >Well this should be interesting. We just received the

> >Brainchild

> > > >liquizinc

> > > > > >by UPS today. They did an excellent job of shipping it out

> >fast,

> > > >and the

> > > > > >flagyl is presenting a problem in getting prescription

> >correct. So

> > > >I think

> > > > > >I'll trial the zinc first. I'll give first dose tomorrow

> >morning.

> > > >My child

> > > > > >is VERY sensitive to certain things, and zinc is one of

them.

> >Say

> > > >some

> > > > > >prayers for us.

> > > > > > Re: Re: Zinc

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:47:23 AM Eastern Standard

> >Time,

> > > > > > > melmeighen@y... writes:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well, he basically went psycho.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > n reacted to Brainchild the same way, even when I

> >started

> > > >with a

> > > > > > > miniscule dose.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nell

> > > > > > >

June 24, 2004

>>despite 8 years of taking tons of

> zinc and no copper, he still shows high in copper and kind of low in

> zinc. So tell me, how would I determine whether this kid or any

other kid

> with autism needs copper supplementation?

You can do what I do, and give a little copper for a week or so, see

if you notice any difference.

Someone I know, once posted on abmd that her son was similar to yours.

Despite a long time of zinc supplementation, he was still high in

copper. So her doctor recommended trying a copper supplementation,

and strangely enough it did work to reduce the copper and raise the

zinc levels. I know this person personally, so I can pass along her

info, if you want it.

Good luck.

Dana

June 24, 2004

I don't think he is saying kids need copper for coppers' sake, I think he

saying it works better, " synergistically " if you combine the two. I also

agree it's a good idea to keep these things separate. I've done a great deal

of reading, so much it makes my head swim, and there is no one size fits all

1 to 2 or 1 to 3 ratio that'll work for all kids. ph's labs show neither

elevated nor low levels of copper or zinc, perfect ratio according to the

labs, but like anything, just because it's in his body doesn't mean he is

utilizing it correctly. Like the food I use to put in him, prior to enzymes

it'd just come back out without ever actually nourishing him. So here's the

thing, maybe, just maybe, he is able to utilize zinc and copper from his

environment/food, without supplementation, and by adding it in, I'm throwing

him out of whack. That's the crazy part. I know I need zinc, I do better

with it, period. However, ph shows no " sign " of needing it, and the only

reason I'm trying so hard, is because of all the things zinc helps the body

to do. He didn't eat much for breakfast, so I'll wait till lunch and then

give it to him.

Re: Re: Zinc

> > > >

> > > > > In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:47:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > > > melmeighen@y... writes:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Well, he basically went psycho.

> > > > >

> > > > > n reacted to Brainchild the same way, even when I started

> >with a

> > > > > miniscule dose.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nell

> > > > >

June 24, 2004

Thanks, Dana, for your thoughts.

Terri

At 01:33 PM 6/24/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >>despite 8 years of taking tons of

> > zinc and no copper, he still shows high in copper and kind of low in

> > zinc. So tell me, how would I determine whether this kid or any

>other kid

> > with autism needs copper supplementation?

>

>You can do what I do, and give a little copper for a week or so, see

>if you notice any difference.

>

>Someone I know, once posted on abmd that her son was similar to yours.

> Despite a long time of zinc supplementation, he was still high in

>copper. So her doctor recommended trying a copper supplementation,

>and strangely enough it did work to reduce the copper and raise the

>zinc levels. I know this person personally, so I can pass along her

>info, if you want it.

>

>Good luck.

>

>Dana

>

June 24, 2004

Ok, wait. If we've already determined that adding zinc doesn't balance out

copper issues, haven't we answered this debate with something pretty

substantial? Think about this for sec. how many parents out there can

testify to zinc not balancing out copper? So the question goes from, was it

lack of zinc being absorbed in the diet that allowed this imbalance, to the

question of , what is causing the imbalance? We've been coming at this from

an equation type mentality, at least I did in the beginning, and the reality

is no matter how hard I tried to walk that tight rope with my son, it

doesn't work. It's like the GFCF diet, yeah, worked for awhile, those darn

pesky gluten and casein monsters, and yet, we found more and more foods he

was intolerant of. We add and subtract to no avail. So the key is to find

the " system " that is out of whack. And then how do we go about re-wiring,

re-stimulating, or supporting that system so it can regain its' proper

function? Zinc is good, but everything I've read says it works better with

some copper. Sort of like calcium and Vit. D or DHA being combined with EPA.

But again, with copper there isn't a magic bullet ratio that would work for

every kid.

Re: Re: Zinc

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:47:23 AM Eastern Standard

> > >Time,

> > > > > > > > melmeighen@y... writes:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well, he basically went psycho.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > n reacted to Brainchild the same way, even when I

> > >started

> > > > >with a

> > > > > > > > miniscule dose.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Nell

> > > > > > > >

June 24, 2004

Thanks for this, . I hadn't thought much about copper beyond " nope,

not for this kid " due to the high readings. I appreciate your

reasoning. This helps my thinking along. Precisely, let's look under the

dysfundtion to the systemic reasons. I wonder why Dr. Walsh didn't include

any copper in his MT Primer, if zinc works best with a little copper to

help it. I will definitely add copper to my list of things to read more

about, after this.

Terri

At 12:15 PM 6/24/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>Ok, wait. If we've already determined that adding zinc doesn't balance out

>copper issues, haven't we answered this debate with something pretty

>substantial? Think about this for sec. how many parents out there can

>testify to zinc not balancing out copper? So the question goes from, was it

>lack of zinc being absorbed in the diet that allowed this imbalance, to the

>question of , what is causing the imbalance? We've been coming at this from

>an equation type mentality, at least I did in the beginning, and the reality

>is no matter how hard I tried to walk that tight rope with my son, it

>doesn't work. It's like the GFCF diet, yeah, worked for awhile, those darn

>pesky gluten and casein monsters, and yet, we found more and more foods he

>was intolerant of. We add and subtract to no avail. So the key is to find

>the " system " that is out of whack. And then how do we go about re-wiring,

>re-stimulating, or supporting that system so it can regain its' proper

>function? Zinc is good, but everything I've read says it works better with

>some copper. Sort of like calcium and Vit. D or DHA being combined with EPA.

>But again, with copper there isn't a magic bullet ratio that would work for

>every kid.

> Re: Re: Zinc

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:47:23 AM Eastern Standard

> > > >Time,

> > > > > > > > > melmeighen@y... writes:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Well, he basically went psycho.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > n reacted to Brainchild the same way, even when I

> > > >started

> > > > > >with a

> > > > > > > > > miniscule dose.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Nell

> > > > > > > > >

June 24, 2004

And when we say high readings, what are we looking at-- on a hair

sample or a blood sample? I always thought that high hair levels

could mean either a toxicity issue stemming from high exposures of

copper somewhere, or that the person has normal exposure to copper

but the copper is being excreted in huge amounts which means it is

not being utilized well BY the body at all. So example, my son's

magnesium levels were very high on his hair test, so I take that to

mean that he needs more magnesium. Maybe I'm interpreting the hair

test wrong.

W

> Thanks for this, . I hadn't thought much about copper

beyond " nope,

> not for this kid " due to the high readings. I appreciate your

> reasoning. This helps my thinking along. Precisely, let's look

under the

> dysfundtion to the systemic reasons. I wonder why Dr. Walsh didn't

include

> any copper in his MT Primer, if zinc works best with a little

copper to

> help it. I will definitely add copper to my list of things to read

more

> about, after this.

>

> Terri

>

June 24, 2004

At the time of the hair test we hadn't been supplementing, but yes,

that's what I mean-- the high level means they are wasting it. So if

copper was high on a hair test, and you knew your child hadn't been

overly exposed to copper in some way, then it would mean they are

wasting it and thus need it, right?

W

> > And when we say high readings, what are we looking

> > at-- on a hair

> > sample or a blood sample? I always thought that

> > high hair levels

> > could mean either a toxicity issue stemming from

> > high exposures of

> > copper somewhere, or that the person has normal

> > exposure to copper

> > but the copper is being excreted in huge amounts

> > which means it is

> > not being utilized well BY the body at all.

June 24, 2004

Terri, awhile back on abmd there was a discussion about zinc and

copper I think you might be very interested in. I raised this topic

a day or two ago and andrew reminded us it was from Germany who

was writing the posts. I keep meaning to do some heavy lifting

around those posts but haven't gotten to them yet. In short, I think

what she was saying that what may look like *high* copper may instead

be *low* copper. It caused me to stop in my tracks because

everything I'm doing through Pfeiffer is responding to 's

supposedly *high* copper. For now he is doing fabulously with

LiquiZinc and no copper, but it's always there on the " to research "

list...

> Thanks for this, . I hadn't thought much about copper

beyond " nope,

> not for this kid " due to the high readings.

June 24, 2004

Hi ,

I know the conversation you're referring to. called me before she

posted, actually. I asked about 's theory (as I recall it she

said could high body copper be indicating that copper is actually low in

the brain?). He just didn't think that held any water. I haven't done a

lot of reading about copper though, and I'm certainly open to someone

coming up with more 'meaty' material to think about.

Terri

At 02:36 AM 6/25/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>Terri, awhile back on abmd there was a discussion about zinc and

>copper I think you might be very interested in. I raised this topic

>a day or two ago and andrew reminded us it was from Germany who

>was writing the posts. I keep meaning to do some heavy lifting

>around those posts but haven't gotten to them yet. In short, I think

>what she was saying that what may look like *high* copper may instead

>be *low* copper. It caused me to stop in my tracks because

>everything I'm doing through Pfeiffer is responding to 's

>supposedly *high* copper. For now he is doing fabulously with

>LiquiZinc and no copper, but it's always there on the " to research "

>list...

>

> > Thanks for this, . I hadn't thought much about copper

>beyond " nope,

> > not for this kid " due to the high readings.

>

June 25, 2004

its not that copper is low in the brain

its that all the bodies enzymes that incorporate copper are unable to

be completely constructed or constructed to adequate levels

this includes important brain and adrenaline pathway enzymes and

copper is the toxic pincer used by some anti viral enzymes to kill

viruses.

so there is copper in high copper kids but the bodies transport

mechanisms cannot access it

so you are actually thrust back into the question of a broad based

supplementation as well as some specific zinc and molybdenum

supplementation which of course requires detail work and complexity

and that is apprently where no body wants to be how ever open they

may claim to be

my situation was because of the effective supplement program the

transport mechanisms were in place but i was low copper so all i had

to do was add copper to get the magic result

but with high copper kids the supplement program has to be rebuilt as

well.................a bioavaliable copper like copper sebecate may

be needed to be part of that rebuilding..............

all this chelation and over focus on single supplements like zinc is

just doomed without attention to copper

you will vever get the viral problems licked without adequate copper

transport and associated enzyme building

it requires an overall supplement approach

so what i say can and is avoided but its like pilgrims progress

theres only one road and the king did not admit the man who came by

the short cut but had an angel bind him up and cast him into hell.

i really would suggest you encourage micheal to put in an appearance

at this board.

> > > Thanks for this, . I hadn't thought much about copper

> >beyond " nope,

> > > not for this kid " due to the high readings.

> >

June 25, 2004

Thanks Terri.

> Hi ,

>

> I know the conversation you're referring to. called me

before she

> posted, actually. I asked about 's theory (as I

recall it she

> said could high body copper be indicating that copper is actually

low in

> the brain?). He just didn't think that held any water. I haven't

done a

> lot of reading about copper though, and I'm certainly open to

someone

> coming up with more 'meaty' material to think about.

>

> Terri

June 26, 2004

, when we began the zinc, we only used it in the morning in

case it caused sleeplessness. When zinc mobilizes copper, it can

cause hyperactivity. Otherwise, it's supposed to be calming.

I now give my son two doses, one in the morning and one in the

evening. We worked our way up slowly to the full dose.

Good luck.

> Thought I'd give heads up on our liquizinc trial.

June 26, 2004

How much is in each dose you give your son? I'm trying to change a type of zinc

to see if it will help my daughter's desire to chew. Hair test showed she seems

to be excreting what we are giving her, optizinc. We're trying a chelated

zinc which is 15 mg per pill, she is 8 and weighs 60 lbs. I'd like to step her

up to try 2 pills a day to see but am wondering how much others are giving.

Thanks,

Kari

Re: Zinc

, when we began the zinc, we only used it in the morning in

case it caused sleeplessness. When zinc mobilizes copper, it can

cause hyperactivity. Otherwise, it's supposed to be calming.

I now give my son two doses, one in the morning and one in the

evening. We worked our way up slowly to the full dose.

Good luck.

June 26, 2004

wasn't your daughters hair test HIGH zinc?

> How much is in each dose you give your son? I'm trying to change a

type of zinc to see if it will help my daughter's desire to chew.

Hair test showed she seems to be excreting what we are giving her,

optizinc. We're trying a chelated zinc which is 15 mg per pill,

she is 8 and weighs 60 lbs. I'd like to step her up to try 2 pills a

day to see but am wondering how much others are giving.

> Thanks,

> Kari

> Re: Zinc

>

> , when we began the zinc, we only used it in the morning in

> case it caused sleeplessness. When zinc mobilizes copper, it can

> cause hyperactivity. Otherwise, it's supposed to be calming.

>

> I now give my son two doses, one in the morning and one in the

> evening. We worked our way up slowly to the full dose.

>

> Good luck.

>

June 26, 2004

Yes you are correct it was really high. It therefore was suggested by someone

else we are seeing that what we are giving her is not being absorbed and just

being excreted threw her hair. And we should consider switching to a chelated

form. Same issue with the magnesium being it is the other item we were

supplementing and she was very high, however I don't care what is going on there

really because it is the one thing that keeps her from constipation. What I

don't get though is when you see a high on something you are supplementing with,

how do you know if it's a high because you are taking/getting too much or it's

high because it's not being absorbed? Another theory along those lines is that

with a leaky gut until that is healed supplementing is kind of worthless because

nothing can be properly digested/processed.

(And I did have my amalgams removed

Thanks,

Kari

Re: Zinc

wasn't your daughters hair test HIGH zinc?

June 26, 2004

zinc methionine is a chelated form. she is zinc poisoned and you will

need copper at least as per my web page.

from that result and knowing that you were using zinc methionine i

would say that is confirmation of it being extremely well absorbed.

a chelated zinc would have a broader spectrum of amino chelates so

may have its uses but high zinc and low copper will cause viral and

energy issues.

basically if its high in hair its high in the blood and vice versa.

very low mercury may mean the suplphur metabolism is so impaired that

the mercury is compeletly bound to tissue and not mobile in the blood

at all.

don't forget the bismuth and antimony

you may be susceptiable to being overinfluenced by epople, i have

that problem which is why i find message boards with their personal

distancing so useful. whoever gave you that advice on more zinc is

dangerously incompedent.

> Yes you are correct it was really high. It therefore was suggested

by someone else we are seeing that what we are giving her is not

being absorbed and just being excreted threw her hair. And we should

consider switching to a chelated form. Same issue with the magnesium

being it is the other item we were supplementing and she was very

high, however I don't care what is going on there really because it

is the one thing that keeps her from constipation. What I don't get

though is when you see a high on something you are supplementing

with, how do you know if it's a high because you are taking/getting

too much or it's high because it's not being absorbed? Another

theory along those lines is that with a leaky gut until that is

healed supplementing is kind of worthless because nothing can be

properly digested/processed.

> (And I did have my amalgams removed

> Thanks,

> Kari

> Re: Zinc

>

> wasn't your daughters hair test HIGH zinc?

>

June 26, 2004

I heard Dr Walsh from Pfeiffer twice and he said something both times

that I distinctly remember because he made a point of it both times.

This was when they were working on the MT Promoter and 'zinc loading'

protocol they have (for the person asking before about natural

chelation, the Pfeiffer protocol is another one to consider). What

Walsh said was that initially they had the zinc loading too high.

When their staff tested it (non-ASD), they became cranky, irritable,

restless, sleep disturbed, etc. They felt this indicated that the

zinc loading had to be done much more gradually because it

was 'displacing' excess copper and starting the natural chelator

metallothionein in the body too fast. Thus, the person was detoxing

too fast.

So the treatment was modified toward a more low-n-slow strategy of

slowly increasing the zinc and this worked out much much better.

It is very possible that although the pre-natal vitamin had some

zinc, the Kirkman zinc alone was more effective in providing more

zinc to the system. The pre-natal vitamins are good at the providing

the minimum but they are compounded with lots of other stuff and no

telling how much zinc really gets into your system.

continuing...Brainchilds supplements are famous for being highly

absorbable and much better than most other brands, so it is very

likely that taking the Brainchilds was giving an extra boost of zinc.

The 'problems' might be similar to what Walsh described above. Going

lower-n-slower with the Brainchilds might work out in the same way.

Please post how it goes as you continue and thanks for the update.

.

June 27, 2004

Re: Zinc

zinc methionine is a chelated form. she is zinc poisoned and you will

need copper at least as per my web page. BUT HAVE TO WONDER IF SHE IS ZINC

POISONED BECAUSE I'VE LOADED HER UP WITH SUPPLEMENTS THAT WEREN'T NEEDED?

from that result and knowing that you were using zinc methionine i

would say that is confirmation of it being extremely well absorbed.

a chelated zinc would have a broader spectrum of amino chelates so

may have its uses but high zinc and low copper will cause viral and

energy issues.

HER CONTINUAL LACK OF ENERGY ISSUES IS A MAJOR FACTOR THAT KIND OF DOESN'T

MAKE SENSE IN ALL OF THIS AS HER YEAST IS GETTING BETTER. (RULED OUT THYROID

PROBLEMS). AGAIN, HAVE TO WONDER IF TOO MUCH ZINC IS THE ISSUE. ONLY STARTED

IT AS A MEANS TO HELP WITH HER DESIRE TO CHEW, BUT OTHERS HAVE NOTED THIS IS

LINKED TO YEAST ISSUES WHICH SHE MOST DEFINITELY HAS.

basically if its high in hair its high in the blood and vice versa.

very low mercury may mean the suplphur metabolism is so impaired that

the mercury is completely bound to tissue and not mobile in the blood

at all.

don't forget the bismuth and antimony

YES SHE WAS HIGH HERE TOO, IS THERE A LINK TO ZINC AND THESE PARTICULARLY?

CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR NOTE TO MENTION THESE HIGHS?

you may be susceptible to being overinfluenced by epople, i have

that problem which is why i find message boards with their personal

distancing so useful. whoever gave you that advice on more zinc is

dangerously incompetent.

MAY BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO BEING OVERINFLUENCED BY PEOPLE IN GENERAL (INCLUDING

EPEOPLE) HERE BECAUSE IT IS VERY NEW TO ME, HOWEVER I TYPICALLY DO MY BEST TO

CROSS CHECK INFORMATION FOR VALIDATION. CHALLENGE IS EVEN WHEN LOOKING AT TWO

SIDES OF THINGS CAN OFTEN NOT HELP AT ALL IF THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO SIDES OF

THE STORY. THIS COMMENT FROM THIS INDIVIDUAL MAY IN FACT BE REALLY OFF TARGET

HERE, HOWEVER HER ON TARGET INFORMATION PROVIDED HAS BEEN REALLY RIGHT ON IN A

LOT OF INSTANCES.

THANKS FOR OFFERING YOUR IDEAS.

KARI