Re: Re: No Time to Relax

[Guest guest]

Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

and I will take Ellen's part on this.

At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

only white men had the ability to have a voice .

I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.For

all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Ron. Not everyone has that inkling of what is best for

themselves and that a vote would help them. In our case, I would not feel

comfortable making a decision that is solely my opinion for my sons. We

can coach but the individual should have the option of deciding if they

want to go forward with it, that freedom of choice we are advocating in

living and other situations. Yes change may not happen but at the end

of the day, you've got to feel you've done your best and what is

appropriate in your situation.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:48:54 -0500 " Cindi Swanson " <cbswanson@...>

writes:

Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

and I will take Ellen's part on this.

At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some

thoughth

only white men had the ability to have a voice .

I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would

probably

prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with

disabilities.For

all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine

thinking ,

pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc.

Why

would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political

values

and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end

when

she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who

cares

about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

____________________________________________________________

Digital Photography - Click Now.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmTBJX9YNuO4LpHfM6TYh3EiqDpQ\

FRchqbfM6vHflp1AcADl616/

[Guest guest]

I agree with Ron. Not everyone has that inkling of what is best for

themselves and that a vote would help them. In our case, I would not feel

comfortable making a decision that is solely my opinion for my sons. We

can coach but the individual should have the option of deciding if they

want to go forward with it, that freedom of choice we are advocating in

living and other situations. Yes change may not happen but at the end

of the day, you've got to feel you've done your best and what is

appropriate in your situation.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:48:54 -0500 " Cindi Swanson " <cbswanson@...>

writes:

Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

and I will take Ellen's part on this.

At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some

thoughth

only white men had the ability to have a voice .

I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would

probably

prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with

disabilities.For

all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine

thinking ,

pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc.

Why

would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political

values

and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end

when

she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who

cares

about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

____________________________________________________________

Digital Photography - Click Now.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmTBJX9YNuO4LpHfM6TYh3EiqDpQ\

FRchqbfM6vHflp1AcADl616/

[Guest guest]

I wonder how far apart many of us who are involved with individuals with

developmental disabilities are in philosophical perspective and whether this is

part of the problem in finding common ground and becoming a unified voice?

Are there more things we all have in common or more things that divide us? Not

up to elaborating this evening...just thinking out loud...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: Re: No Time to Relax

I agree with Ron. Not everyone has that inkling of what is best for

themselves and that a vote would help them. In our case, I would not feel

comfortable making a decision that is solely my opinion for my sons. We

can coach but the individual should have the option of deciding if they

want to go forward with it, that freedom of choice we are advocating in

living and other situations. Yes change may not happen but at the end

of the day, you've got to feel you've done your best and what is

appropriate in your situation.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:48:54 -0500 " Cindi Swanson " <cbswanson@...>

writes:

Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

and I will take Ellen's part on this.

At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some

thoughth

only white men had the ability to have a voice .

I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would

probably

prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with

disabilities.For

all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine

thinking ,

pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc.

Why

would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political

values

and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end

when

she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who

cares

about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

__________________________________________________________

Digital Photography - Click Now.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmTBJX9YNuO4LpHfM6TYh3EiqDpQ\

FRchqbfM6vHflp1AcADl616/

[Guest guest]

I wonder how far apart many of us who are involved with individuals with

developmental disabilities are in philosophical perspective and whether this is

part of the problem in finding common ground and becoming a unified voice?

Are there more things we all have in common or more things that divide us? Not

up to elaborating this evening...just thinking out loud...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: Re: No Time to Relax

I agree with Ron. Not everyone has that inkling of what is best for

themselves and that a vote would help them. In our case, I would not feel

comfortable making a decision that is solely my opinion for my sons. We

can coach but the individual should have the option of deciding if they

want to go forward with it, that freedom of choice we are advocating in

living and other situations. Yes change may not happen but at the end

of the day, you've got to feel you've done your best and what is

appropriate in your situation.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:48:54 -0500 " Cindi Swanson " <cbswanson@...>

writes:

Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

and I will take Ellen's part on this.

At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some

thoughth

only white men had the ability to have a voice .

I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would

probably

prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with

disabilities.For

all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine

thinking ,

pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc.

Why

would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political

values

and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end

when

she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who

cares

about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

__________________________________________________________

Digital Photography - Click Now.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmTBJX9YNuO4LpHfM6TYh3EiqDpQ\

FRchqbfM6vHflp1AcADl616/

[Guest guest]

I understand about individual differences, Ron...and I certainly understand the

comparison between those with other cognitive impairments...brain injury,

alzheimers, etc...I would support those folks voting...they are conscious and

may be able to express themselves in various ways...

Someone in a coma is entirely different...

Still...I would rather take a chance in making a guess about who someone with a

more cognitively limiting developmental disability might vote for versus letting

others who are cognitively unimpaired but who don't care about social services,

make decisions that will affect him/her...

I do get the flip side and I am very uncomfortable with cheating and lying...

I am sitting here, reading and rereading all of this and I am not coming to any

compromising conclusions...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to

yes/no questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a

lovable and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent.

Yes, I know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but

those bans were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm

speaking about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys

know damed well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could

some here, not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe

forms of DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a

person who has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who

the person next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a

limit on who can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a

GROUP of people be banned!!! Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL

DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I understand about individual differences, Ron...and I certainly understand the

comparison between those with other cognitive impairments...brain injury,

alzheimers, etc...I would support those folks voting...they are conscious and

may be able to express themselves in various ways...

Someone in a coma is entirely different...

Still...I would rather take a chance in making a guess about who someone with a

more cognitively limiting developmental disability might vote for versus letting

others who are cognitively unimpaired but who don't care about social services,

make decisions that will affect him/her...

I do get the flip side and I am very uncomfortable with cheating and lying...

I am sitting here, reading and rereading all of this and I am not coming to any

compromising conclusions...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to

yes/no questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a

lovable and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent.

Yes, I know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but

those bans were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm

speaking about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys

know damed well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could

some here, not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe

forms of DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a

person who has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who

the person next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a

limit on who can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a

GROUP of people be banned!!! Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL

DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

Yep! cheap shot, Ron...

And, if you notice, I almost never refer to GROUPS of people with

disabilities...I typically say, individuals with developmental disabilities...I

don't usually think in terms of groups...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

Just one additional comment: When you start to think in terms of INDIVIDUALS

rather than GROUPS, you'll hopefully come to the position that as people change,

so do their opportunities and responsibilities. As an example here: When/if Luke

becomes more skilled at reliably communicating, I'd have ZERO problem in having

him vote. I'd rush to have him registered. Treating individuals as groups is

simply wrong in my value system.

Hmmm, are you on the other side of this debate working to allow released

convicted felons to vote? Ooops ... cheap shot on my part.

Ron

> >

> > Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

> > and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> > At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

> > can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> > only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> > I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> > chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> > blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

> > even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> > love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

> > candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

> > guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> > prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.For

> > all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking

,

> > pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> > cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> > do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

> > hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> > would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> > and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> > and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

> > I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> > movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> > parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> > starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> > voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> > responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> > the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> > she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> > about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> > bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> > and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> > seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

> > doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> > honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yep! cheap shot, Ron...

And, if you notice, I almost never refer to GROUPS of people with

disabilities...I typically say, individuals with developmental disabilities...I

don't usually think in terms of groups...

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

Just one additional comment: When you start to think in terms of INDIVIDUALS

rather than GROUPS, you'll hopefully come to the position that as people change,

so do their opportunities and responsibilities. As an example here: When/if Luke

becomes more skilled at reliably communicating, I'd have ZERO problem in having

him vote. I'd rush to have him registered. Treating individuals as groups is

simply wrong in my value system.

Hmmm, are you on the other side of this debate working to allow released

convicted felons to vote? Ooops ... cheap shot on my part.

Ron

> >

> > Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while

back

> > and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> > At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided

who

> > can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> > only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> > I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> > chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> > blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So

now

> > even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> > love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants

the

> > candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take

a

> > guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> > prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.For

> > all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking

,

> > pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> > cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> > do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of

life,

> > hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> > would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> > and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> > and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I

feel

> > I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> > movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> > parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> > starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> > voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> > responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> > the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> > she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> > about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> > bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> > and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> > seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else

is

> > doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> > honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have to wonder if we take our kids to the temple, have we made a moral

decision for them they would not have made

or a Catholic church, Evangelical chapel... those are all moral decison we

make on behalf of our children. And just because they are non verbal , do

we really know the true intelligence, the complexity of what is going on,

just because they cannot tell us. I am going to roll the dice and

assume/hope my son would choose a candidate or a platform that speaks for

people with dd. I honor all the good parents who weigh in on IPADD. We all

do what we feel is right.

I jsut cannot assume my son is not in his brain coming to terms with some

of these issues. When we talk about rights, I guess I dont have a right

to prohibit him from taking a position. And I really doubt he would vote

for a candidate or a platform that would end him up in a state op.

[Guest guest]

I have to wonder if we take our kids to the temple, have we made a moral

decision for them they would not have made

or a Catholic church, Evangelical chapel... those are all moral decison we

make on behalf of our children. And just because they are non verbal , do

we really know the true intelligence, the complexity of what is going on,

just because they cannot tell us. I am going to roll the dice and

assume/hope my son would choose a candidate or a platform that speaks for

people with dd. I honor all the good parents who weigh in on IPADD. We all

do what we feel is right.

I jsut cannot assume my son is not in his brain coming to terms with some

of these issues. When we talk about rights, I guess I dont have a right

to prohibit him from taking a position. And I really doubt he would vote

for a candidate or a platform that would end him up in a state op.

[Guest guest]

I'm with Ron here.  I do not believe Angel is capable of voting in an election. 

She is capable of picking a favorite restaurant, but as far as picking a

candidate, well, it boils down to getting two votes instead of one.

From: ron_n_luke <roncress@...>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

 

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with Ron here.  I do not believe Angel is capable of voting in an election. 

She is capable of picking a favorite restaurant, but as far as picking a

candidate, well, it boils down to getting two votes instead of one.

From: ron_n_luke <roncress@...>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

 

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I guess I would rather see you, , get two votes that might help our

children and which might offset the vote of someone who doesn't care about

individuals with disabilities...It would level the playing field a little...

Again, just my opinion. Frustrating though this is, I enjoy the dialogue,

because I like being able to see things from all sides. Maybe someone can

convince me that I am wrong...I am open to that. Sad to say, I have been wrong

MANY times!

And of course, this isn't about being right or wrong. It is about choice and

perspective.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to

yes/no questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a

lovable and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent.

Yes, I know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but

those bans were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm

speaking about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys

know damed well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could

some here, not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe

forms of DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a

person who has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who

the person next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a

limit on who can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a

GROUP of people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I guess I would rather see you, , get two votes that might help our

children and which might offset the vote of someone who doesn't care about

individuals with disabilities...It would level the playing field a little...

Again, just my opinion. Frustrating though this is, I enjoy the dialogue,

because I like being able to see things from all sides. Maybe someone can

convince me that I am wrong...I am open to that. Sad to say, I have been wrong

MANY times!

And of course, this isn't about being right or wrong. It is about choice and

perspective.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to

yes/no questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a

lovable and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent.

Yes, I know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but

those bans were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm

speaking about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys

know damed well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could

some here, not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe

forms of DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a

person who has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who

the person next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a

limit on who can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a

GROUP of people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I don't see why our dd kids can't vote.  Most typically developed kids at 18

don't care about any issues or who they are voting for.  They know they are

suppose to vote so they go in a vote for whoever the family or friends talked

about.  When you vote for the Judges have  you had time to research each ones

point of view.  I don't.   I think people with special needs want and need as

much help as the government can give them.  Maybe with so many dd people not

having a voice is why IL is in such bad shape.

Maureen

From: ron_n_luke <roncressearthlink (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I don't see why our dd kids can't vote.  Most typically developed kids at 18

don't care about any issues or who they are voting for.  They know they are

suppose to vote so they go in a vote for whoever the family or friends talked

about.  When you vote for the Judges have  you had time to research each ones

point of view.  I don't.   I think people with special needs want and need as

much help as the government can give them.  Maybe with so many dd people not

having a voice is why IL is in such bad shape.

Maureen

From: ron_n_luke <roncressearthlink (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

Ellen, you hit in on the nail with this comment:

And of course, this isn't about being right or wrong. It is about choice and

perspective.

Each one of our children has their own strengths and weaknesses and it's up to

use to help guide them along.  Though I feel having Angel vote 'my choices' is

fundamentally wrong, I am tempted to do it if it means getting moronic

legislators out of office.

From: ron_n_luke <roncressearthlink (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

Ellen, you hit in on the nail with this comment:

And of course, this isn't about being right or wrong. It is about choice and

perspective.

Each one of our children has their own strengths and weaknesses and it's up to

use to help guide them along.  Though I feel having Angel vote 'my choices' is

fundamentally wrong, I am tempted to do it if it means getting moronic

legislators out of office.

From: ron_n_luke <roncressearthlink (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

IMO, it's based on the individual child.  I know many of the members here

personally, so I know their children and each child is on a different level.

From: ron_n_luke <roncress@earthlink . net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

IMO, it's based on the individual child.  I know many of the members here

personally, so I know their children and each child is on a different level.

From: ron_n_luke <roncress@earthlink . net>

Subject: Re: No Time to Relax

IPADDUnite@gro ups.com

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:58 PM

& Ellen and Others

And how do you propose that you get someone who can't respond reliably to yes/no

questions vote responsibly? I truly respect Luke's abilities and he's a lovable

and loving guy, but his communication skills are nearly non-existent. Yes, I

know that we've banned MANY MANY people from voting in the past, but those bans

were based on GROUP characteristics; e.g., sex, race, etc.. What I'm speaking

about here is an INDIVIDUAL person. There IS a difference. You guys know damed

well that I would never say all people with DD should not vote. Could some here,

not understand the issues faced by some INDIVIDUAL people with severe forms of

DD? Hmmm, would you let someone in a coma for 20 years vote? Should a person who

has severe alzheimers and who does not know what day it is, or who the person

next to them is, or .... be permitted to vote? Do you EVER draw a limit on who

can vote? Just asking. Again, I'm certainly NOT suggesting that a GROUP of

people be banned!!!

Let's recognize that there ARE INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES among people with DD!!

Also, when Luke turned 18, they wanted him to register for the selective

service. Should I have permitted that?

Ron (who has become a groucy old man it seems)

>

> Here is the angle from no angel....we had this spirited debate a while back

> and I will take Ellen's part on this.

> At any point in our civilization there have been people who have decided who

> can and cant have a voice in their destiny. So very recently some thoughth

> only white men had the ability to have a voice .

> I can remember in my life time witnessing blind people on the streets of

> chicago selling pencils, money into a tin cup...because someone thought

> blind people had nothing toffer but a bit more than a street beggar. So now

> even blind people can get master's degrees. Now we, the very people who

> love these folks are saying my child is uncapable of telling me he wants the

> candidate who will care about people with disabilities. We can maybe take a

> guess...an educated guess that my son who has Down Syndrome would probably

> prefer the candidate that would look kindly on folks with disabilities.. . For

> all the corruption we see in this state/country, I cannot imagine thinking ,

> pondering the morals of a person with a DD casting a vote for someone who

> cares about people with disabilities. We have taught our children how to

> do a great deal of things. We have imposed our morals in evry facet of life,

> hands to ourselves, dont touch yourself, , zip your pants, smile..etc. Why

> would we ever think it would be immoral to teach them our political values

> and coach them on voting. I have two other children without disabilities,

> and believe me, we have coached them as well..they are both liberals..I feel

> I have done that job well. For the people who want to vote against the

> movement, certainly they will do all they can to stop us. IPADD is for

> parents of adults, but I am hoping parents with younger children are

> starting to get the idea that self advocacy should /must be taken to the

> voting booth. Ron, it is your sons right to cast a ballot, and your

> responcibility to teach him as you have every thing else, who cares about

> the disabled. My mother voted in every election she could. In the end when

> she could n o longer read , bad eyesight, she would just ask me, who cares

> about the poor people. I would tell her, and that is how she voted. The

> bottom line is if we dont do it/ or if our kids dont do it wiht our helpp

> and support..who is going to do it. Since I have been in this advocacy

> seriously..we have gone from 47 to 51. We have to do it Ron, no one else is

> doing it for us. As far as leaving Illinois, the job is here and very

> honestly the investment for my sons social lifestyle is here.

>

[Guest guest]

I think tha tif we have to bottom line it that way...then have Angel and

(luke) the rest vote. However, I still beleive folks like Angel would say

please voe for the guys who care about me. Again, if we, our kids dont

speak out at the voting booth, who is. HMM, looks like no one will based on

our current status in Il. I look forward to seein gAngel at the polls,

getting rid of the moronic leaders.

[Guest guest]

I think tha tif we have to bottom line it that way...then have Angel and

(luke) the rest vote. However, I still beleive folks like Angel would say

please voe for the guys who care about me. Again, if we, our kids dont

speak out at the voting booth, who is. HMM, looks like no one will based on

our current status in Il. I look forward to seein gAngel at the polls,

getting rid of the moronic leaders.

[Guest guest]

Hard to know for sure if every person with a developmental disability voted, if

it would make a difference, but it might.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: Re: No Time to Relax

I think tha tif we have to bottom line it that way...then have Angel and

(luke) the rest vote. However, I still beleive folks like Angel would say

please voe for the guys who care about me. Again, if we, our kids dont

speak out at the voting booth, who is. HMM, looks like no one will based on

our current status in Il. I look forward to seein gAngel at the polls,

getting rid of the moronic leaders.

[Guest guest]

Hard to know for sure if every person with a developmental disability voted, if

it would make a difference, but it might.

Ellen

Ellen Garber Bronfeld

egskb@...

Re: Re: No Time to Relax

I think tha tif we have to bottom line it that way...then have Angel and

(luke) the rest vote. However, I still beleive folks like Angel would say

please voe for the guys who care about me. Again, if we, our kids dont

speak out at the voting booth, who is. HMM, looks like no one will based on

our current status in Il. I look forward to seein gAngel at the polls,

getting rid of the moronic leaders.