Magnesium

[Guest guest]

Dear StarDantzer:

I used to take 1 cc injec. of mag. sulfate perscribed by Dr. Cheney and 500

mg. Magnesium Glycinate daily. Now I just take the oral mag. glycinate and

also some potassium. I also have heart palpitations and mitral valve

prolapse (caused by CFS) and was tested with low level of magnesium. The

magnesium glycinate is supposed to be the best form of magnesium to take

orally according to Dr. Cheney. Good Luck. Steve Bullock

Magnesium

> Does anyone have any info on magnesium, potassium supplementation? I

> have been searching Cheney and other sites but come up empty

> handed. Specifically, how much to take and what kind. I have bad

> heart palpitations and have been through test after test. All tests

> on my heart come back perfectly normal. I was recently hospitalized

> because of an arrythmia that caused me to black-out. Cardiologist

> found nothing wrong except low potassium and magnesium. I explained

> that I do take supplements of both and don't think I should be

> depleted. They said not to worry it couldn't cause any problems

> anyway. But, I disagree. Any ideas? I do take 2 cc. Mag. Sulfate

> injection each week and an oral mag. vitamin. a

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

a,

Yes I initially took 1 cc daily of mag. sulfate but now get by OK with just

oral mag. glycinate or mag. glycinate forte (a mix of mag. glycinate,

taurine, L-carnitine, and CoQ10). Steve Bullock

Re: Magnesium

> Steve,

> Do I understand correctly that you took 1cc. inj. daily?

> a

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know a. I just know Dr. Cheney prescribed 1 cc (1 mg.) daily

for me. Why not just try high doses of oral mag. glycinate? Steve Bullock

Re: Magnesium

> Where can I find this info to show my doc? He is afraid to give me 2 cc. a

> week.... a

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

PS: Maybe you should try to find a more accomodating Dr.?

Re: Magnesium

> Where can I find this info to show my doc? He is afraid to give me 2 cc. a

> week.... a

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

a,

I have heard several PWCs testify that magnesium glycinate is the

best form of magnesium to take orally, unless you want to increase

your malate inventory also, in which case magnesium malate might be

a better choice.

You can take magnesium up to bowel tolerance, so long as you don't

have kidney disease. The stools become soft as you exceed bowel

tolerance, as with milk of magnesia.

For potassium, potassium chloride should be fine. It can be obtained

as a salt substitute (such as " NoSalt " ). The only safety issue with

potassium is that people with kidney disease can develop potassium

toxicity. If your kidneys are normal, they will take care of any

potassium excess.

My safety-related comments are based on Dr. Murray's book,

" Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements. "

Rich

> Does anyone have any info on magnesium, potassium supplementation?

I

> have been searching Cheney and other sites but come up empty

> handed. Specifically, how much to take and what kind. I have bad

> heart palpitations and have been through test after test. All tests

> on my heart come back perfectly normal. I was recently hospitalized

> because of an arrythmia that caused me to black-out. Cardiologist

> found nothing wrong except low potassium and magnesium. I explained

> that I do take supplements of both and don't think I should be

> depleted. They said not to worry it couldn't cause any problems

> anyway. But, I disagree. Any ideas? I do take 2 cc. Mag. Sulfate

> injection each week and an oral mag. vitamin. a

[Guest guest]

I found malic acid/magnesium malate to help enormously for pain, dry eyes,

and heart problems. Saw nothing for the first month; then from months 2

through 8 there was steady improvements. Still when I was tested my

magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none helped

accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago at the suggestion of

my holistic doc and its helping all my symptoms. The first time I took it

last week i remember a boost in energy as if it was something my body really

needed. -

BTW for anyone who remembers my post last month the red spots I had was

finally diagnosed as a harmless virus called molluscum contagiosum; they look

like herpes but go away after 3-5 months and its gone forever.

my dosage:

Malic acid/magnesium malate: 400mg/75mg 3 times/day

magnesium oxide: 250mg; 2 pills twice per day

[Guest guest]

I also have very low magnesium levels. Dr. Leo Galland says that low C02

levels and/or incorrect acid/alkaline balance causes depletion of magnesium

and other minerals.

Vee

Re: Magnesium

>

>

> > Steve,

> > Do I understand correctly that you took 1cc. inj. daily?

> > a

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think malic acid/magnesiium/cakcium is something that really helps with

cramps, headaches (migraines) and jumpy legs. I just mail ordered a powder

form that you mix with water so it's totally absorbed and quickly. THey

have a 100% money back offer so I'm trying it.

I'll post the address (It's expensive, I bought several months worth on my

credit card) with the understanding that I don't sell it or anything. Part

of what got me was the explanation that a lot of the tablets we takes

aren't really absorbed, or mostly pass through. SInce it's supposed to

help with relaxing muscles and all, I thought drinking the immediately

usable form before bed would be good. I have serious migraines, too.

It's called " calmax' and made by a company called Media Power. The

owner/researcher is a doctor and they make two other products which I

didn't buy- a multi formula and a

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/14/2000 4:35:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

vankonynenburg1@... writes:

<<

I have heard several PWCs testify that magnesium glycinate is the

best form of magnesium to take orally, unless you want to increase

your malate inventory also, in which case magnesium malate might be

a better choice.

You can take magnesium up to bowel tolerance >>

Magnesium glycinate, unlike any other kind of magnesium of which I am

aware, should not cause any g.i. distress.

[Guest guest]

That's interesting, because Cheney recommends magnesium glycinate stating

it's more easily absorbed. Was this one of the kinds you tried?

2276@...

08/14/00 11:23 PM

Please respond to

egroups

cc:

Subject: Re: magnesium

I found malic acid/magnesium malate to help enormously for pain, dry eyes,

and heart problems. Saw nothing for the first month; then from months 2

through 8 there was steady improvements. Still when I was tested my

magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none

helped

accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago at the suggestion

of

my holistic doc and its helping all my symptoms. The first time I took it

last week i remember a boost in energy as if it was something my body

really

needed. -

BTW for anyone who remembers my post last month the red spots I had was

finally diagnosed as a harmless virus called molluscum contagiosum; they

look

like herpes but go away after 3-5 months and its gone forever.

my dosage:

Malic acid/magnesium malate: 400mg/75mg 3 times/day

magnesium oxide: 250mg; 2 pills twice per day

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

I thought magnesium oxide was the least absorbable form of magnesium of all.

Could it be that something else you were taking kicked in?

Vee

> 2276@...

> 08/14/00 11:23 PM

> Please respond to

>

> magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none

> helped accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago....

[Guest guest]

> Concentrace knocks my barfmeter off the scale! ;-)

>

> jim

barfometer is the correct word and sounds funnier too.

)

[Guest guest]

Dear Jim,

Absolutely. Magnesium is indicated for both PMS and for morning sickness.

My wife has had few problems with either since she started taking

Concentrace

liquid colloidal trace minerals, which is loaded with magnesium.

When she forgets, and gets a 'mood attack', she just puts a few drops in a

glass of water

and in five minutes is back to normal.

Best of Health!

Dr. Saul Pressman, DCh

URL: http://www.plasmafire.com

email: saul@...

" The problems of today cannot be solved using the same thinking that created

them " . - Einstein

Re: Homozon

>

> In Mexico women get a chunk of pure magnesium & suck on it when they

> experience morning sickness. It works like a charm. About equivalent to

> rinsing your mouth out with milk of magnesia. I wonder now if

> magnesium deficiency plays a role.

>

> jim

> Marino wrote:

> >

> > Interesting theory Jim, here's another angle;

> >

> > The Price Moms Pay for Healthy Babies

> > ITHACA, NEW YORK-

> >

> > Since the 1970s, there have been theories that morning sickness is a

> > protective mechanism that keeps women from ingesting foods that can

cause

> > fetal injury or abortion. A closer look at the data now supports these

> > theories.

>

>

> OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and

other alternative self-help subjects.

>

> THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE!

>

> This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here

are for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing

information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your

own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to

take responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to

hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found

here without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher

or health care provider.

>

> You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following

address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! -

> DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of

the message! :

>

> oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups

>

> oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode.

>

[Guest guest]

Saul,

I have had Concentrace minerals for 2 years but I have yet to find a way

to take very much of it. Have you found anything that helps cover that

AWFUL taste? Those who have read my posts for a coupla years know I am

no wimp when it comes to good things that are unpleasant. But,

Concentrace knocks my barfmeter off the scale! ;-)

jim

Saul Pressman wrote:

>

> Dear Jim,

>

> Absolutely. Magnesium is indicated for both PMS and for morning sickness.

> My wife has had few problems with either since she started taking

> Concentrace

> liquid colloidal trace minerals, which is loaded with magnesium.

>

> When she forgets, and gets a 'mood attack', she just puts a few drops in a

> glass of water

> and in five minutes is back to normal.

>

> Best of Health!

> Dr. Saul Pressman, DCh

>

> URL: http://www.plasmafire.com

> email: saul@...

>

> " The problems of today cannot be solved using the same thinking that created

> them " . - Einstein

>

> Re: Homozon

>

> >

> > In Mexico women get a chunk of pure magnesium & suck on it when they

> > experience morning sickness. It works like a charm. About equivalent to

> > rinsing your mouth out with milk of magnesia. I wonder now if

> > magnesium deficiency plays a role.

> >

> > jim

> > Marino wrote:

> > >

> > > Interesting theory Jim, here's another angle;

> > >

> > > The Price Moms Pay for Healthy Babies

> > > ITHACA, NEW YORK-

> > >

> > > Since the 1970s, there have been theories that morning sickness is a

> > > protective mechanism that keeps women from ingesting foods that can

> cause

> > > fetal injury or abortion. A closer look at the data now supports these

> > > theories.

> >

> >

> > OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and

> other alternative self-help subjects.

> >

> > THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE!

> >

> > This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here

> are for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing

> information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your

> own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to

> take responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to

> hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found

> here without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher

> or health care provider.

> >

> > You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following

> address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! -

> > DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of

> the message! :

> >

> > oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups

> >

> > oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode.

> >

>

>

> OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and other

alternative self-help subjects.

>

> THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE!

>

> This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here are

for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing information

we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your own risk.

Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to take

responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to hold

yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found here

without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher or health

care provider.

>

> You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following

address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! -

> DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of the

message! :

>

> oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups

>

> oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode.

[Guest guest]

http://www.vrp.com/Library/magtuml.htm

A great article about magnesium by South (two parts). Interesting

that

acetaldehyde from candida causes urinary magnesium loss. J.

[Guest guest]

,

Trace Minerals by Klaire Lab is on sale at Needs this months? What do you

think about that one?

Thanks.

Nil

Magnesium

| I guess I am only one to report on this but I have been taking the Liqu

Mins

| Concentrace Trace Mineral Drops which are ionic and made by Trace Minerals

| Research. I tried them b/c NEEDS had them on sale and it was very cheap

and

| seemingly cost effective way of getting some natural souce of minerals

being

| that they come from Utah's Great Salt Lake. I take a serving morning and

| night and each serving has 250 mg magnesium. Just for curiosity sake I

got

| blood tested and my magnesium was w/i the reference zone, and that is w/o

any

| other supplementation so it is doing its job and at a cheap price.

|

| This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

|

|

[Guest guest]

I have taken the Liquid Mins. from Trace Mineral Research for years.

I have found them to have a very low allergenic potential, as they

are only salt.

I have to be careful though, as taking the recommended dose causes

gastrointestinal upsets for me. But then again, so would Epson Salts.

Many have reported that magnesium is alkaline, and thus might worsen

gut dysbiosis. My testing with ph paper on the Liquid Mins. (which

are mostly magnesium chloride) is that they are only slightly

alkaline in low doses. I do not think they would be the cause of a

problem in this respect.

JME,

Zippy

===============================================================

> I guess I am only one to report on this but I have been taking the

Liqu Mins

> Concentrace Trace Mineral Drops which are ionic and made by Trace

Minerals

> Research. I tried them b/c NEEDS had them on sale and it was very

cheap and

> seemingly cost effective way of getting some natural souce of

minerals being

> that they come from Utah's Great Salt Lake. I take a serving

morning and

> night and each serving has 250 mg magnesium. Just for curiosity

sake I got

> blood tested and my magnesium was w/i the reference zone, and that

is w/o any

> other supplementation so it is doing its job and at a cheap price.

[Guest guest]

Rich,

Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story.

As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80

mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea.

BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount

to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that

my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing.

I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I

need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain

serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is

unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking

supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as

blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption.

Now Jim posted this.

" (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in

http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html

(the following is from example3b)

The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic

cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium.

Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is

very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the

intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does

not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium.

Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is

occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane.

It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of

the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as

inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates

this condition...

The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention,

100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for

details) "

This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that

phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher

magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the

brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much

appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to

do it.

Rob

----- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

SNIP

Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good

reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at

least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal,

healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as

an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems

in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to

decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or

absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with

magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption.

Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione

depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile

salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good

reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition,

some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat

absorption.

I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption

by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta

Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral

magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg

magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with

unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS

criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an

I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people

were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they

did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test.

[Guest guest]

Rob,

> As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80

> mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea.

I am glad you wrote this because I am one of the people who cannot take

magnesium supplements (any kind) without getting diarrhoea, even what is

considered a very small amount.

When you say your need for supplemental mag is about 80 mg per day, do you

mean elemental magnesium?

Also, I suppose you don't always eat the same food items every day, so

wouldn't your needs for supplemental magnesium change from day to day?

I drink mineral water every day, (not always the same brand) and one of the

brand I drink is fairly high in magnesium, so I guess that would also change

my daily requirements.

But this is definitely something I am glad someone wants to discuss because

I keep reading about how we ALL need to take massive amounts of magnesium or

suffer major catastrophes, and, like you, I suspect that it is not that

simple as, like you, I have noticed that taking supplements definitely gives

me diarrhoea after a few days on just one tablet per day (Solgar's mag

glycinate chelate 400mg =???? mg of elemental magnesium, but the rec adult

dose is 4 tablets per day!!).

> I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I

> need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain

> serum levels that are uncomfortably high.

What happens if you don't take supplemental magnesium? How can you tell you

are getting " enough in your cells " ? And what do you mean by " serum levels

that are uncomfortably high " ? What do you feel?

Thanks

Nelly

Re: Magnesium

> Rich,

>

> Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story.

>

> As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80

> mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea.

>

> BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount

> to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that

> my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing.

> I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I

> need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain

> serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is

> unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking

> supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as

> blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption.

>

> Now Jim posted this.

>

> " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in

> http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html

>

> (the following is from example3b)

> The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic

> cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is

> very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the

> intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does

> not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is

> occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane.

>

> It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of

> the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as

> inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates

> this condition...

>

> The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention,

> 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for

> details) "

>

> This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that

> phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher

> magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the

> brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much

> appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to

> do it.

>

> Rob

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

>

> SNIP

> Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good

> reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at

> least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal,

> healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as

> an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems

> in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to

> decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or

> absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with

> magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption.

> Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione

> depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile

> salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good

> reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition,

> some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat

> absorption.

>

> I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption

> by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta

> Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral

> magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg

> magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with

> unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS

> criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an

> I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people

> were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they

> did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test.

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Poor fat digestion " That is reasonable.Thanks.

" Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione

depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile

salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good

reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. "

Would magnesium taurate serve the purpose of supplying taurine?

Thanks Rich.

Nil

Magnesium

| Jim, Mike, Rob and the group,

|

| I'm hesitant to get into this magnesium discussion, because I don't

| think I have a very complete grasp of it yet, but maybe I can shed

| some light on some of the issues that have been raised.

|

| First, I think it's clear that many PWCs and PWFs are low in

| intracellular tissue magnesium. I think the best direct evidence

| for this in PWCs is a set of measurements made by x-ray fluorescence

| analysis of sublingual cells on a scanning electron microscope,

| reported verbally by C.N. Shealy to Mildred Seelig and published by

| her in an article in the Journal of CFS in 1998. He found that of

| 25 consecutive CFS patients, 72% had low tissue magnesium by this

| test. Personally, I think this is the only valid test for tissue

| magnesium levels in PWCs. Serum, red blood cell, lymphocyte, whole

| blood and retention or loading tests have either been shown not to

| correlate well with skeletal muscle tissue magnesium, or there are

| good reasons to suspect that they would not in CFS. This test is

| offered commercially by Intracellular Diagnostics in City,

| CA. I would like to see a good controlled trial of this test run on

| PWCs, combined with oral supplementation, injections, and placebo,

| and correlated with symptom evaluations, and have so stated in the

| book chapter I have written, which hopefully will be published

| soon. (I have no financial interest in this company.)

|

| The other good piece of evidence of tissue magnesium insufficiency

| is that many PWCs and PWFs find that they benefit from oral and

| injected magnesium.

|

| So the question is why is there insufficient magnesium inside the

| cells of PWCs? I think that the first places to look are at

| absorption by the gut and elimination by the kidneys.

|

| Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good

| reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at

| least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal,

| healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as

| an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems

| in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to

| decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or

| absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with

| magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption.

| Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione

| depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile

| salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good

| reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition,

| some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat

| absorption.

|

| I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption

| by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta

| Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral

| magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg

| magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with

| unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS

| criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an

| I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people

| were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they

| did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test.

|

| Please note that I don't believe that the magnesium retention test

| is accurate in CFS in terms of reflecting tissue magnesium levels,

| for reasons described below involving improper handling of magnesium

| by the kidneys, but nevertheless, this test did show that the gut

| absorption of magnesium was poor in some of the patients. By the

| way, I had the privilege of meeting Greta at the AACFS meeting in

| January, and I told her my views on magnesium testing and the

| reasons for them.

|

| It's also found by many PWCs that just taking magnesium orally does

| not help as much as if they get intramuscular magnesium sulfate

| injections. Some also find that getting intravenous magnesium in a

| Myers cocktail helps much more than oral magnesium. I think all of

| this is evidence for poor gut absorption of magnesium in many PWCs.

|

| Moving on to the elimination of magnesium by the kidneys, I also

| think there are good reasons to suspect that this may be elevated in

| PWCs. First is the elevated citric acid. It's true that PWCs dump

| more citric acid in their urine than normals do. The only place

| this can be coming from (in the absence of consumption in the diet)

| is the citric acid or Krebs cycles in the mitochondria of cells,

| because that's the only place it is produced in the body. Since

| alpha ketoglutararic (2-oxo-glutaric) acid tends to be low when

| citric acid is high, I think there is good evidence for a partial

| blockade in the Krebs cycle between the two of them, and I have

| argued for the effect of depleted glutathione in causing this

| blockade via elevated peroxynitrite. As it passes from the cells to

| the kidneys, it moves through the blood stream. It's true that

| citrate is an effective chelator for magnesium, and I would expect

| that it would carry some magnesium out with it into the urine. The

| Australian Newcastle group has reported higher positively charged

| ions in the urine when citrate is high.

|

| Another thing that will come out in my book chapter is that there is

| evidence from animal experiments that the condition of diabetes

| insipidus causes increased magnesium wasting in the urine, because

| arginine vasopressin normally stimulates reabsorption of magnesium

| by the kidneys, and it is often found to be low in PWCs. This is

| what also produces the excessive urine production, and the

| consequent constant thirst and excessive drinking of fluids, which

| constitute diabetes insipidus (Note that I am not referring to the

| more common diabetes mellitus, which involves glucose).

|

| So there are at least two reasons why the kidneys may be dumping

| more magnesium into the urine in PWCs than in normals.

|

| I have made the case that the absorption of magnesium by the gut is

| poor in many PWCs, and I have also made the case for excessive

| dumping of magnesium into the urine. Whether there are additional

| problems involving the transport of magnesium into or out of the

| cells, I don't know. I would think that the problems I have already

| discussed would be sufficient to explain the observations, but maybe

| I am missing something. As I say, I don't feel that I have a

| complete grasp of the magnesium behaviour in CFS and FM yet.

|

| Rich

|

|

|

|

|

| This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

|

|

[Guest guest]

Nelly,

I'm glad my post struck a chord. As I've said many times, advice to take

heroic doses of various supplements has more to do with a particular

mindset of looking for the big technical fix than anything else. Many

people simply can't take them and don't need them.

Yes, I meant elemental magnesium.

Regarding your other questions, perhaps I could ask you to refer to my

paper Fibromyalgia and Guaifenesin and the Robnapier Treatment Plan in the

files of this group. I have also answered the overdose question very

recently (17 March; Magnesium & straw man) and I'd rather not keep

repeating material that some might find tedious, if that's OK.

Rob

Re: Magnesium

> Rich,

>

> Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the

story.

>

> As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80

> mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause

diarrhoea.

>

> BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount

> to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is

that

> my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be

doing.

> I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I

> need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to

maintain

> serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is

> unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start

taking

> supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as

> blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption.

>

> Now Jim posted this.

>

> " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in

> http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html

>

> (the following is from example3b)

> The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic

> cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is

> very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the

> intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does

> not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is

> occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane.

>

> It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of

> the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as

> inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates

> this condition...

>

> The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention,

> 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for

> details) "

>

> This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that

> phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits

higher

> magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the

> brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much

> appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background

to

> do it.

>

> Rob

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

>

> SNIP

> Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good

> reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at

> least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal,

> healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as

> an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems

> in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to

> decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or

> absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with

> magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption.

> Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione

> depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile

> salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good

> reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition,

> some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat

> absorption.

>

> I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption

> by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta

> Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral

> magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg

> magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with

> unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS

> criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an

> I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people

> were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they

> did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test.

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rob,

I find all of this very tantalizing, and I do hope to be able to

study it further. Unfortunately I am a bit overwhelmed with

commitments, and finding time to do the kind of studying and

thinking necessary right now is a challenge.

Rich

> Rich,

>

> Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the

story.

>

> As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is

about 80

> mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause

diarrhoea.

>

> BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole

amount

> to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening

is that

> my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to

be doing.

> I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium

that I

> need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to

maintain

> serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity

is

> unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start

taking

> supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days,

as

> blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption.

>

> Now Jim posted this.

>

> " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in

>

http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.htm

l

>

> (the following is from example3b)

> The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic

> cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is

> very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the

> intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane

does

> not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium.

>

> Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is

> occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane.

>

> It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside

of

> the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as

> inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates

> this condition...

>

> The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention,

> 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for

> details) "

>

> This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my

experience that

> phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it

permits higher

> magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find

the

> brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent

and much

> appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry

background to

> do it.

>

> Rob

[Guest guest]

Kim,

It depends what you really want.

If you only want Mg, the the olgo is great

If you want to hold Mg in the cell, want some action on the CVS (taurine), CNS (oxyproline) or the IS (glutathione, , then magnelevures is by far a better choice.

Virtually all of our patients have absorption problems - magnelevures will help overcome this better than just giving the oligo.

Cell salts should be used whenever you need to aid the absorption of minerals. By itself, it will not supply much Mg to the cell.

Dick Thom

Beaverton, OR

AI, cancer, endocrine, neurological

Hi group-

I am wondering what experience people have had using magneleveurs

versus magnesium cell salts versus magnesium gammadyns. According to

Dr. Greaves, the oligo form is ionized and at the correct

concentration to be immediately transported and utilized.  I would

think then, that this would be the best form to use, but I haven't

heard much talk about it.  Any thoughts?

Hindman

Tigard, OR

cancer, chronic disease, dying, anyone

[Guest guest]

I have not tried the others, but the magneleveurs is my most popular

supplement and people continue on them who haven't seen me in quite

sometime. I think it is very well absorbed - better than anything else my

patients have been on. Judy Fulop, ND

>From: Hindman <kjhindman@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Magnesium

>Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:57:02 -0800

>

>Hi group-

>I am wondering what experience people have had using magneleveurs

>versus magnesium cell salts versus magnesium gammadyns. According to

>Dr. Greaves, the oligo form is ionized and at the correct

>concentration to be immediately transported and utilized. I would

>think then, that this would be the best form to use, but I haven't

>heard much talk about it. Any thoughts?

>

> Hindman

>Tigard, OR

> cancer, chronic disease, dying, anyone

[Guest guest]

http://www.geocities.com/GuaiWhey/Mg1.htm