Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 Dear StarDantzer: I used to take 1 cc injec. of mag. sulfate perscribed by Dr. Cheney and 500 mg. Magnesium Glycinate daily. Now I just take the oral mag. glycinate and also some potassium. I also have heart palpitations and mitral valve prolapse (caused by CFS) and was tested with low level of magnesium. The magnesium glycinate is supposed to be the best form of magnesium to take orally according to Dr. Cheney. Good Luck. Steve Bullock Magnesium > Does anyone have any info on magnesium, potassium supplementation? I > have been searching Cheney and other sites but come up empty > handed. Specifically, how much to take and what kind. I have bad > heart palpitations and have been through test after test. All tests > on my heart come back perfectly normal. I was recently hospitalized > because of an arrythmia that caused me to black-out. Cardiologist > found nothing wrong except low potassium and magnesium. I explained > that I do take supplements of both and don't think I should be > depleted. They said not to worry it couldn't cause any problems > anyway. But, I disagree. Any ideas? I do take 2 cc. Mag. Sulfate > injection each week and an oral mag. vitamin. a > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 a, Yes I initially took 1 cc daily of mag. sulfate but now get by OK with just oral mag. glycinate or mag. glycinate forte (a mix of mag. glycinate, taurine, L-carnitine, and CoQ10). Steve Bullock Re: Magnesium > Steve, > Do I understand correctly that you took 1cc. inj. daily? > a > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 I don't know a. I just know Dr. Cheney prescribed 1 cc (1 mg.) daily for me. Why not just try high doses of oral mag. glycinate? Steve Bullock Re: Magnesium > Where can I find this info to show my doc? He is afraid to give me 2 cc. a > week.... a > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 PS: Maybe you should try to find a more accomodating Dr.? Re: Magnesium > Where can I find this info to show my doc? He is afraid to give me 2 cc. a > week.... a > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 a, I have heard several PWCs testify that magnesium glycinate is the best form of magnesium to take orally, unless you want to increase your malate inventory also, in which case magnesium malate might be a better choice. You can take magnesium up to bowel tolerance, so long as you don't have kidney disease. The stools become soft as you exceed bowel tolerance, as with milk of magnesia. For potassium, potassium chloride should be fine. It can be obtained as a salt substitute (such as " NoSalt " ). The only safety issue with potassium is that people with kidney disease can develop potassium toxicity. If your kidneys are normal, they will take care of any potassium excess. My safety-related comments are based on Dr. Murray's book, " Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements. " Rich > Does anyone have any info on magnesium, potassium supplementation? I > have been searching Cheney and other sites but come up empty > handed. Specifically, how much to take and what kind. I have bad > heart palpitations and have been through test after test. All tests > on my heart come back perfectly normal. I was recently hospitalized > because of an arrythmia that caused me to black-out. Cardiologist > found nothing wrong except low potassium and magnesium. I explained > that I do take supplements of both and don't think I should be > depleted. They said not to worry it couldn't cause any problems > anyway. But, I disagree. Any ideas? I do take 2 cc. Mag. Sulfate > injection each week and an oral mag. vitamin. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 I found malic acid/magnesium malate to help enormously for pain, dry eyes, and heart problems. Saw nothing for the first month; then from months 2 through 8 there was steady improvements. Still when I was tested my magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none helped accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago at the suggestion of my holistic doc and its helping all my symptoms. The first time I took it last week i remember a boost in energy as if it was something my body really needed. - BTW for anyone who remembers my post last month the red spots I had was finally diagnosed as a harmless virus called molluscum contagiosum; they look like herpes but go away after 3-5 months and its gone forever. my dosage: Malic acid/magnesium malate: 400mg/75mg 3 times/day magnesium oxide: 250mg; 2 pills twice per day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 I also have very low magnesium levels. Dr. Leo Galland says that low C02 levels and/or incorrect acid/alkaline balance causes depletion of magnesium and other minerals. Vee Re: Magnesium > > > > Steve, > > Do I understand correctly that you took 1cc. inj. daily? > > a > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2000 Report Share Posted August 15, 2000 I think malic acid/magnesiium/cakcium is something that really helps with cramps, headaches (migraines) and jumpy legs. I just mail ordered a powder form that you mix with water so it's totally absorbed and quickly. THey have a 100% money back offer so I'm trying it. I'll post the address (It's expensive, I bought several months worth on my credit card) with the understanding that I don't sell it or anything. Part of what got me was the explanation that a lot of the tablets we takes aren't really absorbed, or mostly pass through. SInce it's supposed to help with relaxing muscles and all, I thought drinking the immediately usable form before bed would be good. I have serious migraines, too. It's called " calmax' and made by a company called Media Power. The owner/researcher is a doctor and they make two other products which I didn't buy- a multi formula and a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2000 Report Share Posted August 15, 2000 In a message dated 8/14/2000 4:35:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, vankonynenburg1@... writes: << I have heard several PWCs testify that magnesium glycinate is the best form of magnesium to take orally, unless you want to increase your malate inventory also, in which case magnesium malate might be a better choice. You can take magnesium up to bowel tolerance >> Magnesium glycinate, unlike any other kind of magnesium of which I am aware, should not cause any g.i. distress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 That's interesting, because Cheney recommends magnesium glycinate stating it's more easily absorbed. Was this one of the kinds you tried? 2276@... 08/14/00 11:23 PM Please respond to egroups cc: Subject: Re: magnesium I found malic acid/magnesium malate to help enormously for pain, dry eyes, and heart problems. Saw nothing for the first month; then from months 2 through 8 there was steady improvements. Still when I was tested my magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none helped accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago at the suggestion of my holistic doc and its helping all my symptoms. The first time I took it last week i remember a boost in energy as if it was something my body really needed. - BTW for anyone who remembers my post last month the red spots I had was finally diagnosed as a harmless virus called molluscum contagiosum; they look like herpes but go away after 3-5 months and its gone forever. my dosage: Malic acid/magnesium malate: 400mg/75mg 3 times/day magnesium oxide: 250mg; 2 pills twice per day This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 I thought magnesium oxide was the least absorbable form of magnesium of all. Could it be that something else you were taking kicked in? Vee > 2276@... > 08/14/00 11:23 PM > Please respond to > > magnesium levels were low. I tried all other types of magnesium; none > helped accept magnesium oxide. I just started that a week ago.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2000 Report Share Posted October 17, 2000 > Concentrace knocks my barfmeter off the scale! ;-) > > jim barfometer is the correct word and sounds funnier too. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2000 Report Share Posted October 17, 2000 Dear Jim, Absolutely. Magnesium is indicated for both PMS and for morning sickness. My wife has had few problems with either since she started taking Concentrace liquid colloidal trace minerals, which is loaded with magnesium. When she forgets, and gets a 'mood attack', she just puts a few drops in a glass of water and in five minutes is back to normal. Best of Health! Dr. Saul Pressman, DCh URL: http://www.plasmafire.com email: saul@... " The problems of today cannot be solved using the same thinking that created them " . - Einstein Re: Homozon > > In Mexico women get a chunk of pure magnesium & suck on it when they > experience morning sickness. It works like a charm. About equivalent to > rinsing your mouth out with milk of magnesia. I wonder now if > magnesium deficiency plays a role. > > jim > Marino wrote: > > > > Interesting theory Jim, here's another angle; > > > > The Price Moms Pay for Healthy Babies > > ITHACA, NEW YORK- > > > > Since the 1970s, there have been theories that morning sickness is a > > protective mechanism that keeps women from ingesting foods that can cause > > fetal injury or abortion. A closer look at the data now supports these > > theories. > > > OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and other alternative self-help subjects. > > THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE! > > This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here are for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to take responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found here without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher or health care provider. > > You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! - > DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of the message! : > > oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups > > oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2000 Report Share Posted October 17, 2000 Saul, I have had Concentrace minerals for 2 years but I have yet to find a way to take very much of it. Have you found anything that helps cover that AWFUL taste? Those who have read my posts for a coupla years know I am no wimp when it comes to good things that are unpleasant. But, Concentrace knocks my barfmeter off the scale! ;-) jim Saul Pressman wrote: > > Dear Jim, > > Absolutely. Magnesium is indicated for both PMS and for morning sickness. > My wife has had few problems with either since she started taking > Concentrace > liquid colloidal trace minerals, which is loaded with magnesium. > > When she forgets, and gets a 'mood attack', she just puts a few drops in a > glass of water > and in five minutes is back to normal. > > Best of Health! > Dr. Saul Pressman, DCh > > URL: http://www.plasmafire.com > email: saul@... > > " The problems of today cannot be solved using the same thinking that created > them " . - Einstein > > Re: Homozon > > > > > In Mexico women get a chunk of pure magnesium & suck on it when they > > experience morning sickness. It works like a charm. About equivalent to > > rinsing your mouth out with milk of magnesia. I wonder now if > > magnesium deficiency plays a role. > > > > jim > > Marino wrote: > > > > > > Interesting theory Jim, here's another angle; > > > > > > The Price Moms Pay for Healthy Babies > > > ITHACA, NEW YORK- > > > > > > Since the 1970s, there have been theories that morning sickness is a > > > protective mechanism that keeps women from ingesting foods that can > cause > > > fetal injury or abortion. A closer look at the data now supports these > > > theories. > > > > > > OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and > other alternative self-help subjects. > > > > THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE! > > > > This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here > are for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing > information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your > own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to > take responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to > hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found > here without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher > or health care provider. > > > > You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following > address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! - > > DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of > the message! : > > > > oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups > > > > oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode. > > > > > OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and other alternative self-help subjects. > > THERE IS NO MEDICAL ADVICE HERE! > > This list is the 1st Amendment in action. The things you will find here are for information and research purposes only. We are people sharing information we believe in. If you act on ideas found here, you do so at your own risk. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to take responsibility for your own actions. By joining the list you agree to hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself. Do not use any ideas found here without consulting a medical professional, unless you are a researcher or health care provider. > > You can unsubscribe via e-mail by sending A NEW e-mail to the following address - NOT TO THE OXYPLUS LIST! - > DO NOT USE REPLY BUTTON & DO NOT PUT THIS IN THE SUBJECT LINE or BODY of the message! : > > oxyplus-unsubscribeegroups > > oxyplus-normalonelist - switch your subscription to normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2001 Report Share Posted April 24, 2001 http://www.vrp.com/Library/magtuml.htm A great article about magnesium by South (two parts). Interesting that acetaldehyde from candida causes urinary magnesium loss. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 , Trace Minerals by Klaire Lab is on sale at Needs this months? What do you think about that one? Thanks. Nil Magnesium | I guess I am only one to report on this but I have been taking the Liqu Mins | Concentrace Trace Mineral Drops which are ionic and made by Trace Minerals | Research. I tried them b/c NEEDS had them on sale and it was very cheap and | seemingly cost effective way of getting some natural souce of minerals being | that they come from Utah's Great Salt Lake. I take a serving morning and | night and each serving has 250 mg magnesium. Just for curiosity sake I got | blood tested and my magnesium was w/i the reference zone, and that is w/o any | other supplementation so it is doing its job and at a cheap price. | | This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2003 Report Share Posted February 17, 2003 I have taken the Liquid Mins. from Trace Mineral Research for years. I have found them to have a very low allergenic potential, as they are only salt. I have to be careful though, as taking the recommended dose causes gastrointestinal upsets for me. But then again, so would Epson Salts. Many have reported that magnesium is alkaline, and thus might worsen gut dysbiosis. My testing with ph paper on the Liquid Mins. (which are mostly magnesium chloride) is that they are only slightly alkaline in low doses. I do not think they would be the cause of a problem in this respect. JME, Zippy =============================================================== > I guess I am only one to report on this but I have been taking the Liqu Mins > Concentrace Trace Mineral Drops which are ionic and made by Trace Minerals > Research. I tried them b/c NEEDS had them on sale and it was very cheap and > seemingly cost effective way of getting some natural souce of minerals being > that they come from Utah's Great Salt Lake. I take a serving morning and > night and each serving has 250 mg magnesium. Just for curiosity sake I got > blood tested and my magnesium was w/i the reference zone, and that is w/o any > other supplementation so it is doing its job and at a cheap price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Rich, Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story. As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80 mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea. BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing. I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption. Now Jim posted this. " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html (the following is from example3b) The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium. Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium. Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane. It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates this condition... The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention, 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for details) " This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to do it. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> SNIP Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal, healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption. Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition, some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat absorption. I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Rob, > As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80 > mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea. I am glad you wrote this because I am one of the people who cannot take magnesium supplements (any kind) without getting diarrhoea, even what is considered a very small amount. When you say your need for supplemental mag is about 80 mg per day, do you mean elemental magnesium? Also, I suppose you don't always eat the same food items every day, so wouldn't your needs for supplemental magnesium change from day to day? I drink mineral water every day, (not always the same brand) and one of the brand I drink is fairly high in magnesium, so I guess that would also change my daily requirements. But this is definitely something I am glad someone wants to discuss because I keep reading about how we ALL need to take massive amounts of magnesium or suffer major catastrophes, and, like you, I suspect that it is not that simple as, like you, I have noticed that taking supplements definitely gives me diarrhoea after a few days on just one tablet per day (Solgar's mag glycinate chelate 400mg =???? mg of elemental magnesium, but the rec adult dose is 4 tablets per day!!). > I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I > need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain > serum levels that are uncomfortably high. What happens if you don't take supplemental magnesium? How can you tell you are getting " enough in your cells " ? And what do you mean by " serum levels that are uncomfortably high " ? What do you feel? Thanks Nelly Re: Magnesium > Rich, > > Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story. > > As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80 > mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea. > > BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount > to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that > my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing. > I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I > need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain > serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is > unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking > supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as > blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption. > > Now Jim posted this. > > " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in > http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html > > (the following is from example3b) > The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic > cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is > very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the > intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does > not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is > occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane. > > It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of > the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as > inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates > this condition... > > The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention, > 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for > details) " > > This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that > phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher > magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the > brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much > appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to > do it. > > Rob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> > > SNIP > Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good > reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at > least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal, > healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as > an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems > in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to > decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or > absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with > magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption. > Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione > depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile > salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good > reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition, > some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat > absorption. > > I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption > by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta > Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral > magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg > magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with > unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS > criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an > I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people > were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they > did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test. > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 " Poor fat digestion " That is reasonable.Thanks. " Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. " Would magnesium taurate serve the purpose of supplying taurine? Thanks Rich. Nil Magnesium | Jim, Mike, Rob and the group, | | I'm hesitant to get into this magnesium discussion, because I don't | think I have a very complete grasp of it yet, but maybe I can shed | some light on some of the issues that have been raised. | | First, I think it's clear that many PWCs and PWFs are low in | intracellular tissue magnesium. I think the best direct evidence | for this in PWCs is a set of measurements made by x-ray fluorescence | analysis of sublingual cells on a scanning electron microscope, | reported verbally by C.N. Shealy to Mildred Seelig and published by | her in an article in the Journal of CFS in 1998. He found that of | 25 consecutive CFS patients, 72% had low tissue magnesium by this | test. Personally, I think this is the only valid test for tissue | magnesium levels in PWCs. Serum, red blood cell, lymphocyte, whole | blood and retention or loading tests have either been shown not to | correlate well with skeletal muscle tissue magnesium, or there are | good reasons to suspect that they would not in CFS. This test is | offered commercially by Intracellular Diagnostics in City, | CA. I would like to see a good controlled trial of this test run on | PWCs, combined with oral supplementation, injections, and placebo, | and correlated with symptom evaluations, and have so stated in the | book chapter I have written, which hopefully will be published | soon. (I have no financial interest in this company.) | | The other good piece of evidence of tissue magnesium insufficiency | is that many PWCs and PWFs find that they benefit from oral and | injected magnesium. | | So the question is why is there insufficient magnesium inside the | cells of PWCs? I think that the first places to look are at | absorption by the gut and elimination by the kidneys. | | Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good | reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at | least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal, | healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as | an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems | in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to | decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or | absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with | magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption. | Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione | depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile | salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good | reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition, | some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat | absorption. | | I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption | by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta | Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral | magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg | magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with | unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS | criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an | I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people | were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they | did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test. | | Please note that I don't believe that the magnesium retention test | is accurate in CFS in terms of reflecting tissue magnesium levels, | for reasons described below involving improper handling of magnesium | by the kidneys, but nevertheless, this test did show that the gut | absorption of magnesium was poor in some of the patients. By the | way, I had the privilege of meeting Greta at the AACFS meeting in | January, and I told her my views on magnesium testing and the | reasons for them. | | It's also found by many PWCs that just taking magnesium orally does | not help as much as if they get intramuscular magnesium sulfate | injections. Some also find that getting intravenous magnesium in a | Myers cocktail helps much more than oral magnesium. I think all of | this is evidence for poor gut absorption of magnesium in many PWCs. | | Moving on to the elimination of magnesium by the kidneys, I also | think there are good reasons to suspect that this may be elevated in | PWCs. First is the elevated citric acid. It's true that PWCs dump | more citric acid in their urine than normals do. The only place | this can be coming from (in the absence of consumption in the diet) | is the citric acid or Krebs cycles in the mitochondria of cells, | because that's the only place it is produced in the body. Since | alpha ketoglutararic (2-oxo-glutaric) acid tends to be low when | citric acid is high, I think there is good evidence for a partial | blockade in the Krebs cycle between the two of them, and I have | argued for the effect of depleted glutathione in causing this | blockade via elevated peroxynitrite. As it passes from the cells to | the kidneys, it moves through the blood stream. It's true that | citrate is an effective chelator for magnesium, and I would expect | that it would carry some magnesium out with it into the urine. The | Australian Newcastle group has reported higher positively charged | ions in the urine when citrate is high. | | Another thing that will come out in my book chapter is that there is | evidence from animal experiments that the condition of diabetes | insipidus causes increased magnesium wasting in the urine, because | arginine vasopressin normally stimulates reabsorption of magnesium | by the kidneys, and it is often found to be low in PWCs. This is | what also produces the excessive urine production, and the | consequent constant thirst and excessive drinking of fluids, which | constitute diabetes insipidus (Note that I am not referring to the | more common diabetes mellitus, which involves glucose). | | So there are at least two reasons why the kidneys may be dumping | more magnesium into the urine in PWCs than in normals. | | I have made the case that the absorption of magnesium by the gut is | poor in many PWCs, and I have also made the case for excessive | dumping of magnesium into the urine. Whether there are additional | problems involving the transport of magnesium into or out of the | cells, I don't know. I would think that the problems I have already | discussed would be sufficient to explain the observations, but maybe | I am missing something. As I say, I don't feel that I have a | complete grasp of the magnesium behaviour in CFS and FM yet. | | Rich | | | | | | This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Nelly, I'm glad my post struck a chord. As I've said many times, advice to take heroic doses of various supplements has more to do with a particular mindset of looking for the big technical fix than anything else. Many people simply can't take them and don't need them. Yes, I meant elemental magnesium. Regarding your other questions, perhaps I could ask you to refer to my paper Fibromyalgia and Guaifenesin and the Robnapier Treatment Plan in the files of this group. I have also answered the overdose question very recently (17 March; Magnesium & straw man) and I'd rather not keep repeating material that some might find tedious, if that's OK. Rob Re: Magnesium > Rich, > > Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story. > > As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80 > mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea. > > BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount > to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that > my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing. > I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I > need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain > serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is > unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking > supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as > blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption. > > Now Jim posted this. > > " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in > http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.html > > (the following is from example3b) > The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic > cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is > very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the > intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does > not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is > occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane. > > It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of > the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as > inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates > this condition... > > The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention, > 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for > details) " > > This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that > phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher > magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the > brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much > appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to > do it. > > Rob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...> > > SNIP > Considering absorption by the gut first, I think there are good > reasons to believe that this could be inadequate in many PWCs, at > least. First, magnesium is not well absorbed even in a normal, > healthy person, which is why milk of magnesia has long been used as > an effective laxative. Second, PWCs tend to have a lot of problems > in their gastrointestinal systems. One problem that is known to > decrease magnesium absorption by the gut is poor fat digestion or > absorption. The residual fat remaining in the gut can react with > magnesium to form a soap, and this prevents magnesium absorption. > Since many PWCs are low in taurine (coupled to glutathione > depletion), and taurine is necessary for forming the conjugated bile > salts used in the emulsification of fats in the gut, there is good > reason to suspect problems with fat digestion in CFS. In addition, > some PWCs have steatorrhea (fat in the stools), suggesting poor fat > absorption. > > I think that a good piece of evidence for poor magnesium absorption > by the gut in many people with chronic fatigue is the work of Greta > Moorkens et al. (1997) and (2000). They found that even after oral > magnesium supplementation for three months at a level of 10 mg > magnesium per kg of body weight, nearly half the patients with > unexplained chronic fatigue (about half of whom satisfied the CFS > criteria) still showed greater than 20% magnesium retention on an > I.V. magnesium retention test. I think this says that these people > were not absorbing magnesium well by oral supplementation, but they > did retain magnesium that was administered intravenously in the test. > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Rob, I find all of this very tantalizing, and I do hope to be able to study it further. Unfortunately I am a bit overwhelmed with commitments, and finding time to do the kind of studying and thinking necessary right now is a challenge. Rich > Rich, > > Without disagreeing with what you say, I think there's more to the story. > > As I said the other day, my need for supplementary magnesium is about 80 > mg daily. If I am replete, even an additional 50 mg will cause diarrhoea. > > BUT how about this? If I suspend for a week, I can take the whole amount > to catch up in one day without GI upset. What is clearly happening is that > my body is closely regulating serum levels, as it is supposed to be doing. > I have so much difficulty in tolerating the amount of magnesium that I > need to stay mobile because to get enough in the cells, I need to maintain > serum levels that are uncomfortably high. Although my sensitivity is > unusually high, many others show the same pattern. When they start taking > supplements, they often experience GI upset only after a few days, as > blood levels rise. Their problem is not absorption. > > Now Jim posted this. > > " (the following snippets are taken from the pages linked to in > http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Soapbox/Articles/bioterrain.htm l > > (the following is from example3b) > The excess protons (H+) produced as a result of increased anaerobic > cellular metabolism will evict intracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium transport from the extracellular fluid into the cell is > very poor even when Calcium is artificially removed from the > intracellular fluid and Magnesium transport across the membrane does > not respond to marked increase in extracellular Magnesium. > > Magnesium binding to high energy (phosphate-bond) substances is > occurring on the outer surface of the cell membrane. > > It seems that the high-energy binding of Magnesium on the outside of > the cell is interfering with Calcium ion channels as well as > inhibiting Magnesium uptake. Using suplemental Magnesium aggravates > this condition... > > The result of this test was that there was no Magnesium retention, > 100% of an 8mmol load was excreted.(see webpage for example3b for > details) " > > This seems to fit the facts as I know them, including my experience that > phosphates do not help but calcium does, if only because it permits higher > magnesium doses without hypocalcaemia. As I say, if you can find the > brainspace to get to grips with it, it would be time well spent and much > appreciated by us. Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry background to > do it. > > Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Kim, It depends what you really want. If you only want Mg, the the olgo is great If you want to hold Mg in the cell, want some action on the CVS (taurine), CNS (oxyproline) or the IS (glutathione, , then magnelevures is by far a better choice. Virtually all of our patients have absorption problems - magnelevures will help overcome this better than just giving the oligo. Cell salts should be used whenever you need to aid the absorption of minerals. By itself, it will not supply much Mg to the cell. Dick Thom Beaverton, OR AI, cancer, endocrine, neurological Hi group- I am wondering what experience people have had using magneleveurs versus magnesium cell salts versus magnesium gammadyns. According to Dr. Greaves, the oligo form is ionized and at the correct concentration to be immediately transported and utilized. I would think then, that this would be the best form to use, but I haven't heard much talk about it. Any thoughts? Hindman Tigard, OR cancer, chronic disease, dying, anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 I have not tried the others, but the magneleveurs is my most popular supplement and people continue on them who haven't seen me in quite sometime. I think it is very well absorbed - better than anything else my patients have been on. Judy Fulop, ND >From: Hindman <kjhindman@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Magnesium >Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:57:02 -0800 > >Hi group- >I am wondering what experience people have had using magneleveurs >versus magnesium cell salts versus magnesium gammadyns. According to >Dr. Greaves, the oligo form is ionized and at the correct >concentration to be immediately transported and utilized. I would >think then, that this would be the best form to use, but I haven't >heard much talk about it. Any thoughts? > > Hindman >Tigard, OR > cancer, chronic disease, dying, anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 http://www.geocities.com/GuaiWhey/Mg1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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