Antibiotics

February 24, 2002

I

>prefer saying this, because people who have had all required by law

>and plus vaccinations and who are healthy need to understand that we

>are talking of RISKS, and that they just have been lucky !

>

>=====

>

Cecile,

I don't know of any vaccinated child that has been 'lucky'. All the kids I know

that are vaccinated and over five yrs old have some form of 'learning

difficulty', ear infections, asthma, behavioural problems, diabetes, constant

ill-health and general malaise. These kids are just 'not right' and seem to be

constantly agitated or dull. Maybe its the food, maybe its TV, maybe its music,

maybe its a combination. But they all have one thing in common, vaccination.

When I was a kid, I'm 42 now, we just didn't get sick, nor did we misbehave, nor

did we have autism and ADD, nor were we vaccinated.

I think what people think of as healthy now, would not have been considered

healthy 40 years ago. Our standard and expectation of what is healthy has

dropped as our general health has declined.

Vaccination should not be a luck thing. Like gee, your kid didn't die or get

autism??? Lucky!!

I hope I'm not sounding harsh, but my son was one of the unlucky ones.

Joanna

---------------------------------

February 24, 2002

Sheri,

We were talking of " normal " sicknesses such as otitis ! andre did

not have a brain tumor, but a neuroblastoma (a CNS tumor, originating

on the adrenal gland); I cannot be sure it was caused by SV40 (but

the analysis will give me an answer, I hope). But I hope my daughters

will not have major health problems, although they were vaccinated :

my point was to stress out that, fortunately, not all vaccinated

children have major problems, but this does not mean their parents

did not take a huge risk !!!

I was willing to stress this because a " standard " answer when you

talk about vaccine dangers is " maybe, but my children are very

healthy, and vaccinated " , and you see that people believe that it's

just another new idea, that will pass. And they just forget

everything you have said the minute after !

=====

Cécile, wife to , mother of Nathalie(11.5), Sandrine(8.5), Karine(6) and

andre(forever 3.5) dx 02/00 NBIV N-MYC amplified. Left us on June 14th, 2001

andre sent us two new babies due next Spring .... e-mail :

cecilecogez@...

andre's story : http://www.caringbridge.com/page/alexandre

__________________________________________________

February 24, 2002

Dear Joanna,

I believe also that my andre was one of the unlucky, and the

reason why I am trying to talk about vaccines to as many people as

possible is that I have been with him during his 16 monthes of cancer

treatment, and I have had to hold his so cold body, forever cold, and

I would want to prevent other mothers to have to live through this

and survive their liitle children ! I am not saying to people that

they have to believe in their own luck ! I am just saying that having

no problem with one vaccinated child does not mean 1) there won't be

in the future and 2) that you have not just been very lucky and could

not be the next time ! My point was trying to be as matter of fact as

possible, because we need to be in control to be able to be

convincing. If you say every vaccinated child has problems, people

will not believe you ; all the children I know are vaccinated, and

they do not have major health problems or retardation. But some might

have, and the price is too high when there is nothing to expect in

terms of positive results from the vaccines !

Do you understand me ? I am sorry my words were so misunderstood ...

=====

Cécile, wife to , mother of Nathalie(11.5), Sandrine(8.5), Karine(6) and

andre(forever 3.5) dx 02/00 NBIV N-MYC amplified. Left us on June 14th, 2001

andre sent us two new babies due next Spring .... e-mail :

cecilecogez@...

andre's story : http://www.caringbridge.com/page/alexandre

__________________________________________________

November 23, 2002

Lots of discussion on this topic at the mycoplasma group here at

and also at:

http://forums.about.com/CFS_FM_Research/start

penny

> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but Garth Nicolson has a

whole

> bunch of papers available at his website, www.immed.org, on his

protocol for

> long-term antibiotics. Some people on this list have followed his

protocol,

> and some have followed a slightly different protocol by, I believe,

a Dr.

> Jadin. Over the years, there have been positive and negative

stories with

> long-term antibiotics on this list. You should be able to search

the

> archives and find quite a bit of information.

>

> Peggy

>

> *********************************

> web page: www.angelfire.com/ri/strickenbk

November 23, 2002

In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,

blue74730@... writes:

> addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins to take also. It is

> about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my doctor would go

> along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill Ciguatera toxins?

> Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe it kills Ciguatera

> toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does antiobiotics kill Ciguatera?

November 23, 2002

Peggy, I think part of what turns people off to long term antibiotics

is we have heard too many stories of folks being treated for lyme who

go long term to get rid of it and everything's great until they come

off and then boom the lyme comes right back in full furry. I am not

sure this happens with mycoplasma though. Does anyone here know if

this is as common with mycoplasma as it is with lyme--that is for it

to come right back after using antibiotics? I'd be interested to

know.

In @y..., Peggomatic@a... wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but Garth Nicolson has a

whole

> bunch of papers available at his website, www.immed.org, on his

protocol for

> long-term antibiotics. Some people on this list have followed his

protocol,

> and some have followed a slightly different protocol by, I believe,

a Dr.

> Jadin. Over the years, there have been positive and negative

stories with

> long-term antibiotics on this list. You should be able to search

the

> archives and find quite a bit of information.

>

> Peggy

>

> *********************************

> web page: www.angelfire.com/ri/strickenbk

November 23, 2002

,

I think that may vary for the subtype of mycoplasma that one has and the

length of time one has been ill. There are some on the mycoplasma list whose

symptoms return when they stop the abx, so they stay on them, there are some

who take a maintenance dose maybe a few days a week at a low dosage, and

there are a few who have gotten their lives back. I've not been on the list

long enough to know about returnees - kind of like this or any other list -

people get well and get on with their lives, and you don't hear how they are

doing. One couple who was on abx for I think 14 months were doing great, and

now are having symptoms again. They're going to be retested. I don't know

how long they were symptomless.

Donna in NC

Re: Antibiotics

> Peggy, I think part of what turns people off to long term antibiotics is

we have heard too many stories of folks being treated for lyme who go long

term to get rid of it and everything's great until they come off and then

boom the lyme comes right back in full furry. I am not sure this happens

with mycoplasma though. Does anyone here know if this is as common with

mycoplasma as it is with lyme--that is for it to come right back after

using antibiotics? I'd be interested to know.

>

November 24, 2002

Bob, and the group,

Concerning antibiotics and ciguatera, I'm still a little in the dark

about this. As I understand it from the reports published lately,

an experimenter in Hawaii has found elevated levels of ciguatera

toxin in PWCs from various parts of the U.S.

The question in my mind is " Is this toxin being generated

endogenously, i.e. in the bodies of these PWCs, by microorganisms in

their guts, for example, or did this toxin come from fish they have

eaten, and has it then built up because their detox systems are not

functioning properly, as for example because of glutathione

depletion? "

I don't know the answer to this yet. If it's the former, then

perhaps some type of antibiotic would work, because this toxin is

produced by a dinoflagellate, which is sort of like an amoeba that

has a couple of tails (flagella). This dinoflagellate normally

lives in seawater and is consumed by small fish, which are then

eaten by larger fish, etc., thus concentrating the toxin. Whether

this dinoflagellate could live in the human body, I don't know.

If it's the latter, then I don't think antibiotics would help,

because the only thing present would be the toxin, not something

with a living cell that could be slowed down or killed, which is

what antibiotics do. In this case, I think that some type of detox

measures would be more likely to work, such as cholestyramine or

activated charcoal, or something like that.

If there is somebody in this group who is on Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker's

list, I think this would be a good question to address to him. I'd

like to know what he says about it, since he has done a lot of work

on Pfiesteria, which is sort of related.

Rich

> In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> blue74730@y... writes:

>

> > addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins to take

also. It is

> > about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my doctor

would go

> > along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill

Ciguatera toxins?

> > Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe it kills

Ciguatera

> > toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

>

> Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does antiobiotics kill

Ciguatera?

>

November 24, 2002

Rich

There's been a fresh posting to follow up queries on this on CoCure.

" Those patients in the study were from different parts of the United

States.

Some were from the Incline Village Outbreak while others were in the

Lyndonville, NY outbreak. There were both acute onset and gradual

onset

patients tested, all ages, and of varying lengths of illness duration.

Every

sample sent for this study was found to be positive on a variety of

laboratory tests.

The poison is thought to be part of an ongoing disease process that is

being

manufactured in the body. Titers were found to be higher in patients

with

CFS than those with hepatitis. "

This has interesting connotations from the way I am looking at how my

CFS/ME is caused. As you remember, I have been looking at the role of

l-form cocci as the cause of my problems. These cocci give off various

levels of potent neurotoxins into our systems and cause all sort of

symptoms of which we can see that our illness can be in fact

nuerotoxin based in origin for a subset of total PWC's. If I knew

organic chemistry well enough I could try and see how close the

structres of the ciguatoxin and the various cocci toxins are. Maybe

other bacterial toxins are combining to produce ciguatoxin or

something that has ciguatoxin as a subset.

> > In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > blue74730@y... writes:

> >

> > > addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins to take

> also. It is

> > > about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my doctor

> would go

> > > along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill

> Ciguatera toxins?

> > > Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe it kills

> Ciguatera

> > > toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

> >

> > Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does antiobiotics kill

> Ciguatera?

> >

November 24, 2002

Dave,

Thanks for the message. I actually had read the Co-cure post that

you quoted, but I still don't know the answer to my question. If

they are basing their thought that there is an ongoing production of

ciguatoxin in the bodies of the PWCs on the observation that the

levels were higher in them than in the hepatitis patients, I'm not

sure that this is convincing. The PWCs may have less efficient

detox systems than the hepatitis patients, and this could acount for

the buildup of the toxin.

In the reading I have been able to do on ciguatera, there is no

mention of the dinoflagellates (which are the only microbes that

have been reported to produce ciguatoxins) living inside other

animals. They apparently have been found to live only in the

tropical seas on coral reefs.

Apparently ciguatoxins have been found in over 400 species of fish,

but principally in the larger predatory reef fish. Apparently the

toxins don't hurt the fish, but they do become more oxidized in the

bodies of the fish, which apparently makes them more toxic to humans.

I guess that unless I hear some evidence to the contrary, I'm

tending toward the view that the ciguatoxins got into the PWCs from

fish that they ate. Perhaps they built up because of inefficient

detox systems. I haven't been able to find out what the detox

mechanism is for ciguatoxins or in particular whether it involves

the phase 2 glutathione conjugation pathway, but if that turns out

to be the case, then I think all of this would tie together with the

glutathione depletion found in many PWCs, and which is known to

affect the detox of several other toxins, including the heavy

metals, many organic solvents, formaldehyde and the organophosphate

pesticides.

Rich

> > > In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > > blue74730@y... writes:

> > >

> > > > addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins to

take

> > also. It is

> > > > about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my

doctor

> > would go

> > > > along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill

> > Ciguatera toxins?

> > > > Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe it

kills

> > Ciguatera

> > > > toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

> > >

> > > Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does antiobiotics

kill

> > Ciguatera?

> > >

November 24, 2002

Rich

I also had thought about that we may be building up the toxin worse

that healthy people, due to detox problems.

Here's a poser..........since we are recommended to take fish oils,

are we getting ciguatoxin build up from the fish oil capsules? The

testing that is available is down to a certain level, below that level

it comes back negative. So with our invrease levels of fish oils, we

could be building up from them.

Still not convinced about bacterial l-forms and cocci? I have a couple

of contacts who have all but cured themselves with abx from pretty bad

levels of CFS + FM, and they rate themselves at 95%.

Dave

> > > > In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > > > blue74730@y... writes:

> > > >

> > > > > addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins to

> take

> > > also. It is

> > > > > about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my

> doctor

> > > would go

> > > > > along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill

> > > Ciguatera toxins?

> > > > > Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe it

> kills

> > > Ciguatera

> > > > > toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

> > > >

> > > > Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does antiobiotics

> kill

> > > Ciguatera?

> > > >

November 24, 2002

Dave,

Wow! I think that's a very perceptive thought! I hadn't thought of

that! It's true that ciguatoxins are fat soluble, so one should

expect that they could be found in fish oils! And a lot of PWCs do

take fish oils to get the omega-3 fatty acids. We've worried about

mercury in fish oils, but maybe ciguatoxins are another thing we

should be thinking about. And you're right, the ciguatoxins are

cumulative because they aren't detoxed very rapidly from the body,

so even very small levels in fish oils could be important.

Concerning l-forms and cocci, yes, I believe that they may well be

important in some PWCs. It's just that I have a one-track mind,

Dave, and right now I'm trying to understand what's going on with

the ciguatera! (LOL!) I guess I doubt whether there is a connection

between l-form cocci and ciguatera, because the ciguatoxins appear

to be very complex and specific toxins. As far as I know, the

dinoflagellates, which are protists (and thus eukaryotes) are not

closely related to the cocci, which are bacteria (and thus are

prokaryotes. This puts them pretty far apart on the taxonomy of

living creatures. It therefore doesn't seem likely to me that they

would be producing similar, very complex toxins. But then, I am not

a microbiologist, a toxicologist, or even an organic chemist, so I

could be wrong.

I do think you may be onto something with your suggestion about the

fish oils.

Rich

> > > > > In a message dated 11/23/02 8:28:16 PM Pacific Standard

Time,

> > > > > blue74730@y... writes:

> > > > >

> > > > > > addresses the effect on the gut flora and what vitamins

to

> > take

> > > > also. It is

> > > > > > about a 9-10 hour drive for me to Mexico as I doubt my

> > doctor

> > > > would go

> > > > > > along with this treatment. I wonder if Antibiotics kill

> > > > Ciguatera toxins?

> > > > > > Maybe that is also why Doxycycline is successful, maybe

it

> > kills

> > > > Ciguatera

> > > > > > toxins? Rich what do you think about that? Bob

> > > > >

> > > > > Bob, did you ever get an answer for this...does

antiobiotics

> > kill

> > > > Ciguatera?

> > > > >

November 24, 2002

According to Udo Erasmus High epa oil is capable of killing Staph. and even

malaria.

Regards

Dave x