RE: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

[Guest guest]

And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal care " you

tout.

This is what you would get.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:04 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

(old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs how to get well.

Gracia

Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting stage. Dr Thierry

Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

HYPERLINK

" http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyr

oiduk & tid=3879 " http://forums.-about.com/-n/pfx/forum.-aspx?tsn=-41 & nav=messa

ges & -webtag=ab--thyroiduk & -tid=3879

Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and Professor Weetman (

for the British Thyroid Assoc).

WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise blood TSH level "

(This is the consensus view of the BTA).

THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve symptoms " (Consensus

view of the United States Society of Endocrinologists)-.

and this

>WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not necessary "

>THIERRY: This is just NOT true

.............-.........-.........-.........-.........-.........-.........-.

The link

HYPERLINK

" http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyr

oiduk & tid=3879 " http://forums.-about.com/-n/pfx/forum.-aspx?tsn=-41 & nav=messa

ges & -webtag=ab--thyroiduk & -tid=3879

is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the Trial....lets see what

tomorrow brings ....

Jane

[Guest guest]

this is what we have now LOL.

why does national health care=poor health care? b/c we are all idiots? we

have to demand quality health care so that we can afford it. Do a search for

Prof Weetman at http://www.thyroid.about.com

Shocking.

Gracia

And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal care " you

tout.

This is what you would get.

Neil

_____

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[Guest guest]

You mean US Endocrinologists want to pay attention to

symptoms? Since when?

Roni

--- Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

>

> (old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs

> how to get well.

> Gracia

>

> Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting

> stage. Dr Thierry

> Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

>

>

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroiduk\

& tid=3879

>

> Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and

> Professor Weetman (

> for the British Thyroid Assoc).

>

> WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise

> blood TSH level "

> (This is the consensus view of the BTA).

>

> THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve

> symptoms " (Consensus

> view of the United States Society of

> Endocrinologists).

>

> and this

>

> >WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not

> necessary "

>

> >THIERRY: This is just NOT true

>

>

....................................................................

> The link

>

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroiduk\

& tid=3879

>

> is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the

> Trial....lets see what

> tomorrow brings ....

>

> Jane

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No kidding...my endo was a jerk. Fired her.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Roni Molin

Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:35 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

You mean US Endocrinologists want to pay attention to

symptoms? Since when?

Roni

--- Gracia <HYPERLINK " mailto:circe%40gwi.net " circe@...> wrote:

>

> (old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs

> how to get well.

> Gracia

>

> Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting

> stage. Dr Thierry

> Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

>

>

HYPERLINK

" http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyr

oiduk & tid=3879 " http://forums.-about.com/-n/pfx/forum.-aspx?tsn=-41 & nav=messa

ges & -webtag=ab--thyroiduk & -tid=3879

>

> Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and

> Professor Weetman (

> for the British Thyroid Assoc).

>

> WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise

> blood TSH level "

> (This is the consensus view of the BTA).

>

> THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve

> symptoms " (Consensus

> view of the United States Society of

> Endocrinologists)-.

>

> and this

>

> >WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not

> necessary "

>

> >THIERRY: This is just NOT true

>

>

.............-.........-.........-.........-.........-.........-.........-.

> The link

>

HYPERLINK

" http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyr

oiduk & tid=3879 " http://forums.-about.com/-n/pfx/forum.-aspx?tsn=-41 & nav=messa

ges & -webtag=ab--thyroiduk & -tid=3879

>

> is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the

> Trial....lets see what

> tomorrow brings ....

>

> Jane

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So why aren't the British and Canadian citizens doing anything about their

mediocre health care systems?

That TSH worshiper resents the British Thyroid Assoc!!!

Why do many of them come to the states for better doctors?

Are they idiots??? Don't they demand " quality health care " ???

Neil

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:31 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

this is what we have now LOL.

why does national health care=poor health care? b/c we are all idiots? we

have to demand quality health care so that we can afford it. Do a search for

Prof Weetman at http://www.thyroid.about.com <http://www.thyroid.about.com>

Shocking.

Gracia

And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal care " you

tout.

This is what you would get.

Neil

_____

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[Guest guest]

Wow...imagine that.

---------------------------

Figures show more patients waiting for operations

Press Association

Friday June 3, 2005

SocietyGuardian.co.uk

The number of patients waiting for an NHS operation in England has increased

by nearly 6,000, the government admitted today.

A total of 827,300 patients were on the waiting list at the end of April -

up by 5,700 since the end of March.

-----------------------------------

And our future?....

Why baby boomers should be terrified of Democrats

Posted: July 11, 2007

1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Turtel

lin Bremmer stared at the death lists and saw his mother's name. His

face turned white. He moaned, " Oh, God, mother! Oh, No. Oh, God, no! " He had

just visited his mother last night. He remembered her sweet voice, the soft,

white cheek he had kissed, the look of worry on her face when she had said

he looked tired, his favorite foods she had made for him, waiting on the

kitchen table. He adored his mother. He had been taking care of her for five

years, and her heart was bad, very bad. She needed a bypass operation

quickly, or she would die. A week ago was her 75th birthday.

In this year 2020, lin Bremmer worked as an " analyst " for the

Philadelphia Division of the Federal Rationed-Care Board. He looked down at

the monthly list of elderly patients who would be denied life-saving heart

operations because they were too old, because they had passed the cutoff age

of 75 years. He looked at this monthly death list, the part of his job that

twisted his stomach every first of the month, and he saw his mother's name,

Bremmer.

Part of lin Bremmer's job was to determine who would live and who would

die. He had to make a " cost-benefit " analysis for each human being on the

list. He had to judge if giving that person the operation he or she

desperately needed was " medically inappropriate " based on the cost.

The Washington Medical Board bosses were desperate to cut costs. Taxes on

young working couples were skyrocketing to pay for the exploding medical

care of 270 million Americans, including 40 million baby boomers. There had

been tax riots. Congress was putting enormous pressure on regional

Rationed-Care Board bosses to cut costs so they could stop the relentless

rise in taxes.

There could be only one end result – rationing. The elderly baby boomers

were first to go under the ax. The bureaucrats' rationale was that saving

the lives of seniors over 75 was not a " benefit " that was worth the medical

costs to " society. "

The bureaucrats chose 75 years old as the arbitrary cut-off age for any

expensive operation. Bremmer's mother could enjoy another 15 years of

healthy life, another 15 years of walking in the sunshine with him, of

making his favorite foods, of working in her flower garden. But she was now

condemned to death by number crunchers who did cost-benefit analysis with

people's lives.

He never thought his mother would fall under the ax. He always put this

possibility out of his mind. But a repressed part of him knew this day would

come. For 12 years now, the system had been moving toward collapse. The

problem had been building since 2008, when Hillary Clinton was elected

president. She promptly enacted the socialized-medicine program with the

help of a Democratic Congress.

The problem accelerated when the baby boomers started to retire by the tens

of millions around the same time. The system was now collapsing from the

weight of 275 million Americans on universal health care, collapsing from

the economic weight of a program costing $3 trillion dollars a year, and

rising.

Everyone now demands the best medical care using the latest technology. This

was the mythology liberals had brainwashed everyone with for the last 50

years. Everyone had the " right " to the best medical care, regardless of

cost, and that health care should be " free, " paid by the government

(taxpayers). It was a prescription for disaster.

Since government paid for everyone's health care, since patients paid only

small deductibles, naturally they kept demanding more medical services, free

prescription drugs and free hospital care, in a never-ending cycle. There is

no limit to the medical care that 275 million Americans now demand.

Unlimited demand exploded health care costs.

Then, on the supply side, government strangles doctors, hospitals, drug and

health insurance companies with thousands of regulations, crippling the

free-market competition in health care that would have lowered costs. These

regulations sharply reduced the number of practicing doctors, and

skyrocketed the cost of drugs and hospital stays. Health care costs

ballooned year after year, all caused by government's ever-tightening noose

around the health care industry's neck.

Unlimited demand and strangled supply. lin Bremmer was now facing the

disastrous consequences of a once vibrant free-market health care system

destroyed by socialized medicine. He was facing the inevitable result –

rationing. Not enough money left to support the system. Impossible to raise

taxes any more without civil revolt. Rationing had finally come full-blown

to America, like the plague, like it had in England and Canada by the 1990s.

And the dreadful results were the same as they were, and still are, in

England and Canada – the death lists. People waiting for years to get heart

operations, cancer treatment, hip replacements. People by the thousands

dying on the lists while they waited.

Then, even the lists didn't work. Finally, the lists were eliminated and the

rationing departments took over. Bureaucrats were hired, bureaucrats who

would ration care, decide who would get the operation they needed and who

wouldn't, who would live or die.

So lin Bremmer, Rationed-Care Board senior bureaucrat, working for the

system for over 20 years, now looked down at the piece of paper he was

destined to see. He saw the death list with his mother's name on top.

Bremmer thought of his mother's sweet, loving face. He thought of his duty

as chief of the Rationed-Care Board. He felt a heavy surge of guilt for

having been part of a system that had come to this, that now forced him to

kill his own mother and thousands of other mothers on the monthly death

lists.

Something then snapped in Bremmer's mind, something gave a wrenching

twist. He sat in front of his computer for a long time. Then, as in slow

motion, he turned on the computer. He punched in his password. He brought up

the lists of all elderly patients in Philadelphia waiting for a heart

operation. He saw his mother's name. He changed her birth date entry.

Bremmer was not born in 1945 any longer. She was born in 1965. Bremmer

was now 55 years old. He hit the save button. His mother would now get her

heart operation.

lin Bremmer, an honorable man, then went to his supervisor and resigned

his job, the job he had worked at for 20 years, giving no reason for his

resignation. He just walked out of the building on a bright spring day, and

went to visit his mother.

Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

this is what we have now LOL.

why does national health care=poor health care? b/c we are all idiots? we

have to demand quality health care so that we can afford it. Do a search for

Prof Weetman at http://www.thyroid.about.com <http://www.thyroid.about.com>

Shocking.

Gracia

And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal care " you

tout.

This is what you would get.

Neil

_____

Recent Activity

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[Guest guest]

Is there a site to go chat with people who do believe in socialized

healthcare?

My 24 year old daughter was doubled over in pain today, she doesn't

have health insurance, so it didn't occur to her to go to the Dr.

sad, really sad in the wealthiest country.

Jackie

On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:23 PM, neil wrote:

> And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal

> care " you

> tout.

>

> This is what you would get.

>

> Neil

>

[Guest guest]

I have " good " Kaiser healthcare and the date for my ultrasound for my

thyroid glad, that appears large at the naked eye level is late

September! Thank God I have " good " healthcare, huh?

Jackie

On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:57 PM, neil wrote:

> Wow...imagine that.

>

> ---------------------------

>

> Figures show more patients waiting for operations

>

>

> Press Association

> Friday June 3, 2005

> SocietyGuardian.co.uk

>

> The number of patients waiting for an NHS operation in England has

> increased

> by nearly 6,000, the government admitted today.

>

> A total of 827,300 patients were on the waiting list at the end of

> April -

> up by 5,700 since the end of March.

> -----------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Jane-

Who is this Dr. Thierry Hertoghe person? I'm impressed!

In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:17:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, circe@...

writes:

(old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs how to get well.

Gracia

Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting stage. Dr Thierry

Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

_http://forums.http://forhttp://forumhttp://foht & nav=messages & <WBR>webta<WBR>w

ebt & <WBR>tid_

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroidu\

k & tid=3879)

Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and Professor Weetman (

for the British Thyroid Assoc).

WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise blood TSH level "

(This is the consensus view of the BTA).

THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve symptoms " (Consensus

view of the United States Society of Endocrinologists)v

and this

>WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not necessary "

>THIERRY: This is just NOT true

....................................................................

The link

_http://forums.http://forhttp://forumhttp://foht & nav=messages & <WBR>webta<WBR>w

ebt & <WBR>tid_

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroidu\

k & tid=3879)

is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the Trial....lets see what

tomorrow brings ....

Jane

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

Neil-

I am interested/curious about what you have to say so I have a question for

you: Do you believe that ideally there ever could be a socialist healthcare

system in the U.S. that could be excellent? Just wondering as I'm trying to

figure out how I feel about possible healthcare solutions, and therefore who to

vote for, etc. :-)

In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:36:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

neilneil@... writes:

So why aren't the British and Canadian citizens doing anything about their

mediocre health care systems?

That TSH worshiper resents the British Thyroid Assoc!!!

Why do many of them come to the states for better doctors?

Are they idiots??? Don't they demand " quality health care " ???

Neil

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt agency. The bleeding heart

crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can make it work " , " we have

to demand quality care " , " we can change it and make it better as we go

along " , etc.

But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the DMV, etc. All these govt

agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot fix. Once you create the

beast there is no going back. I am sure it really sucks to be on that list

waiting for a heart bypass operation in England....only 800,000 patients

until I get my turn! How would you feel if your loved one died while on that

list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the DMV in Los Angeles that

was that long come to think of it.....

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of bear339@...

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 7:55 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

Neil-

I am interested/curious about what you have to say so I have a question for

you: Do you believe that ideally there ever could be a socialist healthcare

system in the U.S. that could be excellent? Just wondering as I'm trying to

figure out how I feel about possible healthcare solutions, and therefore who

to

vote for, etc. :-)

In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:36:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

HYPERLINK " mailto:neilneil%40roadrunner.com " neilneilroadrunner- writes:

So why aren't the British and Canadian citizens doing anything about their

mediocre health care systems?

That TSH worshiper resents the British Thyroid Assoc!!!

Why do many of them come to the states for better doctors?

Are they idiots??? Don't they demand " quality health care " ???

Neil

************-*********-*********-******** Get a sneak peak of the all-new

AOL at

HYPERLINK

" http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour " http://discover.-aol.com/memed/-

aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

I don't think socialized health care is the right word, unless

medicare/medicaid is socialized medicine.

I have a wonderful doc now but I still try to solve my health probs myself.

Gracia

Is there a site to go chat with people who do believe in socialized

healthcare?

My 24 year old daughter was doubled over in pain today, she doesn't

have health insurance, so it didn't occur to her to go to the Dr.

sad, really sad in the wealthiest country.

Jackie

On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:23 PM, neil wrote:

> And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal

> care " you

> tout.

>

> This is what you would get.

>

> Neil

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Hertoghe is third or fourth generation endocrinologist from Belgium. My

friend in Paris sees him and he saved her life. He wrote Hormone Solutions.

Gracia

Jane-

Who is this Dr. Thierry Hertoghe person? I'm impressed!

In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:17:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, circe@...

writes:

(old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs how to get well.

Gracia

Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting stage. Dr Thierry

Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

_http://forums.http://forhttp://forumhttp://foht & nav=messages & <WBR>webta<WBR>w

ebt & <WBR>tid_

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroidu\

k & tid=3879)

Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and Professor Weetman (

for the British Thyroid Assoc).

WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise blood TSH level "

(This is the consensus view of the BTA).

THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve symptoms " (Consensus

view of the United States Society of Endocrinologists)v

and this

>WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not necessary "

>THIERRY: This is just NOT true

...................................................................

The link

_http://forums.http://forhttp://forumhttp://foht & nav=messages & <WBR>webta<WBR>w

ebt & <WBR>tid_

(http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroidu\

k & tid=3879)

is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the Trial....lets see what

tomorrow brings ....

Jane

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

Neil

you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think health care for all has to be

so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great state of Maine the state

guvmint is insuring children and the poor and doing a pretty good job.

my son had a heart valve replacement operation in Germany, I think it was

totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for recuperation. He is US citizen

working in Germany.

Gracia

Hi ,

The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt agency. The bleeding heart

crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can make it work " , " we have

to demand quality care " , " we can change it and make it better as we go

along " , etc.

But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the DMV, etc. All these govt

agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot fix. Once you create the

beast there is no going back. I am sure it really sucks to be on that list

waiting for a heart bypass operation in England....only 800,000 patients

until I get my turn! How would you feel if your loved one died while on that

list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the DMV in Los Angeles that

was that long come to think of it.....

Neil

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[Guest guest]

I could say you sound like a " cradle to grave " liberal or a bleeding heart

idealist.

Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

Neil

you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think health care for all has to be

so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great state of Maine the state

guvmint is insuring children and the poor and doing a pretty good job.

my son had a heart valve replacement operation in Germany, I think it was

totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for recuperation. He is US

citizen working in Germany.

Gracia

Hi ,

The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt agency. The bleeding heart

crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can make it work " , " we have

to demand quality care " , " we can change it and make it better as we go

along " , etc.

But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the DMV, etc. All these govt

agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot fix. Once you create the

beast there is no going back. I am sure it really sucks to be on that list

waiting for a heart bypass operation in England....only 800,000 patients

until I get my turn! How would you feel if your loved one died while on that

list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the DMV in Los Angeles that

was that long come to think of it.....

Neil

_____

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[Guest guest]

Gracia writes " I work in a group home for mentally retarded adults, most

nonverbal, some in

wheel chairs, one blind guy who LOVES game shows, many in diapers. Their

medical care is horrific IMO. Two of them have never been treated for

congenital hypothyroidism. Bad medical care is very expensive.

Gracia

and here Gracia writes....

" In my great state of Maine the state guvmint is insuring children and the

poor and doing a pretty good job. "

So which is it Gracia? You seem to change your stories daily, especially to

suit an argument for cradle to grave universal care.

Neil

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Gracia

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

Neil

you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think health care for all has to be

so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great state of Maine the state

guvmint is insuring children and the poor and doing a pretty good job.

my son had a heart valve replacement operation in Germany, I think it was

totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for recuperation. He is US

citizen working in Germany.

Gracia

Hi ,

The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt agency. The bleeding heart

crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can make it work " , " we have

to demand quality care " , " we can change it and make it better as we go

along " , etc.

But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the DMV, etc. All these govt

agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot fix. Once you create the

beast there is no going back. I am sure it really sucks to be on that list

waiting for a heart bypass operation in England....only 800,000 patients

until I get my turn! How would you feel if your loved one died while on that

list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the DMV in Los Angeles that

was that long come to think of it.....

Neil

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[Guest guest]

state of Maine is doing a good job of insuring children and the poor.

medicare/medicaid and I don't know what else completely pays for group home

health care.

my prob is with poor quality care that almost everyone is getting. my prob

is with allopathic standard of care. We cannot afford the present model

dictated by big pharma. This is why US spends so much on helath care and

gets very little for it.

these ae not mutually exclusive ideas.

sure I am a liberal and sure I don't have a prob with cradle to grave

medical care (which part of the population would you exclude?) I actually

like every Dem running for President LOL.

I JUST WANT QUALITY HEALTHCARE. Evidence based medicine

Gracia

> Gracia writes " I work in a group home for mentally retarded adults, most

> nonverbal, some in

> wheel chairs, one blind guy who LOVES game shows, many in diapers. Their

> medical care is horrific IMO. Two of them have never been treated for

> congenital hypothyroidism. Bad medical care is very expensive.

> Gracia

>

> and here Gracia writes....

>

> " In my great state of Maine the state guvmint is insuring children and the

> poor and doing a pretty good job. "

>

>

>

> So which is it Gracia? You seem to change your stories daily, especially

> to

> suit an argument for cradle to grave universal care.

>

> Neil

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: hypothyroidism

> [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

> On Behalf Of Gracia

> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

> hypothyroidism

> Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

>

>

>

>

> Neil

> you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think health care for all has to be

> so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great state of Maine the state

> guvmint is insuring children and the poor and doing a pretty good job.

> my son had a heart valve replacement operation in Germany, I think it was

> totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for recuperation. He is US

> citizen working in Germany.

> Gracia

>

> Hi ,

>

> The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt agency. The bleeding

> heart

> crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can make it work " , " we have

> to demand quality care " , " we can change it and make it better as we go

> along " , etc.

>

> But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the DMV, etc. All these govt

> agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot fix. Once you create

> the

> beast there is no going back. I am sure it really sucks to be on that list

> waiting for a heart bypass operation in England....only 800,000 patients

> until I get my turn! How would you feel if your loved one died while on

> that

> list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the DMV in Los Angeles that

> was that long come to think of it.....

>

> Neil

>

> _____

>

> Recent Activity

> a.. 6New Members

> Visit Your Group

>

[Guest guest]

The only problem I see with government run health care

is the part about government running it. The

government habitually spends way more money than

necessary for EVERYTHING, including toilet seats.

Years ago my ex worked in an engineering company that

was working on the LEM. (lunar module for space - I

can't recall the exact name, maybe one of you

gentlemen would recall) Anyway, it was considered

another " Government Job " , and so extra hours were

given to the people working on it, extra equipment,

extra everything, just because it was a government

job. In fact the name was so graphic, it came to mean

any job that was using too much money for nothing.

Roni

--- Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

>

> state of Maine is doing a good job of insuring

> children and the poor.

> medicare/medicaid and I don't know what else

> completely pays for group home

> health care.

> my prob is with poor quality care that almost

> everyone is getting. my prob

> is with allopathic standard of care. We cannot

> afford the present model

> dictated by big pharma. This is why US spends so

> much on helath care and

> gets very little for it.

> these ae not mutually exclusive ideas.

> sure I am a liberal and sure I don't have a prob

> with cradle to grave

> medical care (which part of the population would you

> exclude?) I actually

> like every Dem running for President LOL.

> I JUST WANT QUALITY HEALTHCARE. Evidence based

> medicine

> Gracia

>

> > Gracia writes " I work in a group home for

> mentally retarded adults, most

> > nonverbal, some in

> > wheel chairs, one blind guy who LOVES game shows,

> many in diapers. Their

> > medical care is horrific IMO. Two of them have

> never been treated for

> > congenital hypothyroidism. Bad medical care is

> very expensive.

> > Gracia

> >

> > and here Gracia writes....

> >

> > " In my great state of Maine the state guvmint is

> insuring children and the

> > poor and doing a pretty good job. "

> >

> >

> >

> > So which is it Gracia? You seem to change your

> stories daily, especially

> > to

> > suit an argument for cradle to grave universal

> care.

> >

> > Neil

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> > From: hypothyroidism

> > [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

> > On Behalf Of Gracia

> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

> > hypothyroidism

> > Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr

> Skinners Trial - UK

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Neil

> > you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think

> health care for all has to be

> > so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great

> state of Maine the state

> > guvmint is insuring children and the poor and

> doing a pretty good job.

> > my son had a heart valve replacement operation in

> Germany, I think it was

> > totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for

> recuperation. He is US

> > citizen working in Germany.

> > Gracia

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt

> agency. The bleeding

> > heart

> > crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can

> make it work " , " we have

> > to demand quality care " , " we can change it and

> make it better as we go

> > along " , etc.

> >

> > But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the

> DMV, etc. All these govt

> > agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot

> fix. Once you create

> > the

> > beast there is no going back. I am sure it really

> sucks to be on that list

> > waiting for a heart bypass operation in

> England....only 800,000 patients

> > until I get my turn! How would you feel if your

> loved one died while on

> > that

> > list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the

> DMV in Los Angeles that

> > was that long come to think of it.....

> >

> > Neil

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Recent Activity

> > a.. 6New Members

> > Visit Your Group

> >

[Guest guest]

My sister-in-law died HERE in America at 45 not 75....waiting for or even

qualifying for a new heart. My husband died after heart surgery...not so

perfect in the States either.

-- Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

Neil-

I am interested/curious about what you have to say so I have a question for

you: Do you believe that ideally there ever could be a socialist healthcare

system in the U.S. that could be excellent? Just wondering as I'm trying to

figure out how I feel about possible healthcare solutions, and therefore who

to

vote for, etc. :-)

In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:36:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

HYPERLINK " mailto:neilneil%40roadrunner.com " neilneilroadrunner- writes:

So why aren't the British and Canadian citizens doing anything about their

mediocre health care systems?

That TSH worshiper resents the British Thyroid Assoc!!!

Why do many of them come to the states for better doctors?

Are they idiots??? Don't they demand " quality health care " ???

Neil

************-*********-*********-******** Get a sneak peak of the all-new

AOL at

HYPERLINK

" http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour " http://discover.-aol.com/memed/-

aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

I love that first sentence! Neil

_____

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Roni Molin

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 10:12 AM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

The only problem I see with government run health care

is the part about government running it. The

government habitually spends way more money than

necessary for EVERYTHING, including toilet seats.

Years ago my ex worked in an engineering company that

was working on the LEM. (lunar module for space - I

can't recall the exact name, maybe one of you

gentlemen would recall) Anyway, it was considered

another " Government Job " , and so extra hours were

given to the people working on it, extra equipment,

extra everything, just because it was a government

job. In fact the name was so graphic, it came to mean

any job that was using too much money for nothing.

Roni

--- Gracia <HYPERLINK " mailto:circe%40gwi.net " circe@...> wrote:

>

> state of Maine is doing a good job of insuring

> children and the poor.

> medicare/medicaid and I don't know what else

> completely pays for group home

> health care.

> my prob is with poor quality care that almost

> everyone is getting. my prob

> is with allopathic standard of care. We cannot

> afford the present model

> dictated by big pharma. This is why US spends so

> much on helath care and

> gets very little for it.

> these ae not mutually exclusive ideas.

> sure I am a liberal and sure I don't have a prob

> with cradle to grave

> medical care (which part of the population would you

> exclude?) I actually

> like every Dem running for President LOL.

> I JUST WANT QUALITY HEALTHCARE. Evidence based

> medicine

> Gracia

>

> > Gracia writes " I work in a group home for

> mentally retarded adults, most

> > nonverbal, some in

> > wheel chairs, one blind guy who LOVES game shows,

> many in diapers. Their

> > medical care is horrific IMO. Two of them have

> never been treated for

> > congenital hypothyroidism. Bad medical care is

> very expensive.

> > Gracia

> >

> > and here Gracia writes....

> >

> > " In my great state of Maine the state guvmint is

> insuring children and the

> > poor and doing a pretty good job. "

> >

> >

> >

> > So which is it Gracia? You seem to change your

> stories daily, especially

> > to

> > suit an argument for cradle to grave universal

> care.

> >

> > Neil

> >

> > ____________-_________-_________-__

> >

> > From: HYPERLINK

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com

> > [mailto:HYPERLINK

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com]

> > On Behalf Of Gracia

> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

> > HYPERLINK

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com

> > Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr

> Skinners Trial - UK

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Neil

> > you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think

> health care for all has to be

> > so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great

> state of Maine the state

> > guvmint is insuring children and the poor and

> doing a pretty good job.

> > my son had a heart valve replacement operation in

> Germany, I think it was

> > totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for

> recuperation. He is US

> > citizen working in Germany.

> > Gracia

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE govt

> agency. The bleeding

> > heart

> > crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we can

> make it work " , " we have

> > to demand quality care " , " we can change it and

> make it better as we go

> > along " , etc.

> >

> > But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the

> DMV, etc. All these govt

> > agencies that all the kicking and screaming cannot

> fix. Once you create

> > the

> > beast there is no going back. I am sure it really

> sucks to be on that list

> > waiting for a heart bypass operation in

> England....only 800,000 patients

> > until I get my turn! How would you feel if your

> loved one died while on

> > that

> > list waiting? I think I have been in a line at the

> DMV in Los Angeles that

> > was that long come to think of it.....

> >

> > Neil

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Recent Activity

> > a.. 6New Members

> > Visit Your Group

> >

[Guest guest]

Ditto ,

My aunt died as a result of a heart surgery done even

though she had begun menstruating a few days before.

The doctor refused to postpone it because of his

schedule. My uncle is currently waiting for a life

saving heart operation, and is on a list. They may

call him or they may not. It is actually a lottery

they told his wife. Meanwhile his life is just ebbing

away.

Roni

--- <ronicamelian@...> wrote:

> My sister-in-law died HERE in America at 45 not

> 75....waiting for or even

> qualifying for a new heart. My husband died after

> heart surgery...not so

> perfect in the States either.

>

>

>

> -- Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr

> Skinners Trial - UK

>

> Neil-

>

> I am interested/curious about what you have to say

> so I have a question for

> you: Do you believe that ideally there ever could be

> a socialist healthcare

> system in the U.S. that could be excellent? Just

> wondering as I'm trying to

> figure out how I feel about possible healthcare

> solutions, and therefore who

> to

> vote for, etc. :-)

>

>

>

> In a message dated 7/13/2007 11:36:05 PM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> HYPERLINK

>

" mailto:neilneil%40roadrunner.com " neilneilroadrunner-

> writes:

>

> So why aren't the British and Canadian citizens

> doing anything about their

> mediocre health care systems?

>

> That TSH worshiper resents the British Thyroid

> Assoc!!!

>

> Why do many of them come to the states for better

> doctors?

>

> Are they idiots??? Don't they demand " quality health

> care " ???

>

> Neil

>

> ************-*********-*********-******** Get a

> sneak peak of the all-new

> AOL at

> HYPERLINK

>

" http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour " http://discover.-aol.com/memed/-

> aolcom30tour

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/893 -

> Release Date: 7/9/2007

> 5:22 PM

>

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/893 -

> Release Date: 7/9/2007

> 5:22 PM

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you. (grin)

Roni

--- neil <neilneil@...> wrote:

> I love that first sentence! Neil

>

> _____

>

> From: hypothyroidism

> [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

> On Behalf Of Roni Molin

> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 10:12 AM

> hypothyroidism

> Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr

> Skinners Trial - UK

>

>

>

> The only problem I see with government run health

> care

> is the part about government running it. The

> government habitually spends way more money than

> necessary for EVERYTHING, including toilet seats.

>

> Years ago my ex worked in an engineering company

> that

> was working on the LEM. (lunar module for space - I

> can't recall the exact name, maybe one of you

> gentlemen would recall) Anyway, it was considered

> another " Government Job " , and so extra hours were

> given to the people working on it, extra equipment,

> extra everything, just because it was a government

> job. In fact the name was so graphic, it came to

> mean

> any job that was using too much money for nothing.

>

> Roni

> --- Gracia <HYPERLINK

> " mailto:circe%40gwi.net " circe@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > state of Maine is doing a good job of insuring

> > children and the poor.

> > medicare/medicaid and I don't know what else

> > completely pays for group home

> > health care.

> > my prob is with poor quality care that almost

> > everyone is getting. my prob

> > is with allopathic standard of care. We cannot

> > afford the present model

> > dictated by big pharma. This is why US spends so

> > much on helath care and

> > gets very little for it.

> > these ae not mutually exclusive ideas.

> > sure I am a liberal and sure I don't have a prob

> > with cradle to grave

> > medical care (which part of the population would

> you

> > exclude?) I actually

> > like every Dem running for President LOL.

> > I JUST WANT QUALITY HEALTHCARE. Evidence based

> > medicine

> > Gracia

> >

> > > Gracia writes " I work in a group home for

> > mentally retarded adults, most

> > > nonverbal, some in

> > > wheel chairs, one blind guy who LOVES game

> shows,

> > many in diapers. Their

> > > medical care is horrific IMO. Two of them have

> > never been treated for

> > > congenital hypothyroidism. Bad medical care is

> > very expensive.

> > > Gracia

> > >

> > > and here Gracia writes....

> > >

> > > " In my great state of Maine the state guvmint is

> > insuring children and the

> > > poor and doing a pretty good job. "

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > So which is it Gracia? You seem to change your

> > stories daily, especially

> > > to

> > > suit an argument for cradle to grave universal

> > care.

> > >

> > > Neil

> > >

> > > ____________-_________-_________-__

> > >

> > > From: HYPERLINK

>

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com

>

> > > [mailto:HYPERLINK

>

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com]

> > > On Behalf Of Gracia

> > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:01 AM

> > > HYPERLINK

>

" mailto:hypothyroidism%40 " hypothyroidism@-groups.-com

> > > Subject: Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr

> > Skinners Trial - UK

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Neil

> > > you sound like Chicken Little. I don't think

> > health care for all has to be

> > > so complicated and user unfriendly. In my great

> > state of Maine the state

> > > guvmint is insuring children and the poor and

> > doing a pretty good job.

> > > my son had a heart valve replacement operation

> in

> > Germany, I think it was

> > > totally free including 6 weeks at a resort for

> > recuperation. He is US

> > > citizen working in Germany.

> > > Gracia

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > The problem I see is in creating such a HUGE

> govt

> > agency. The bleeding

> > > heart

> > > crowd will tell you " we just have to try " , " we

> can

> > make it work " , " we have

> > > to demand quality care " , " we can change it and

> > make it better as we go

> > > along " , etc.

> > >

> > > But look at the realities. We have the IRS, the

> > DMV, etc. All these govt

> > > agencies that all the kicking and screaming

> cannot

> > fix. Once you create

> > > the

> > > beast there is no going back. I am sure it

> really

> > sucks to be on that list

> > > waiting for a heart bypass operation in

> > England....only 800,000 patients

> > > until I get my turn! How would you feel if your

> > loved one died while on

> > > that

> > > list waiting? I think I have been in a line at

> the

> > DMV in Los Angeles that

> > > was that long come to think of it.....

> > >

> > > Neil

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > Recent Activity

> > > a.. 6New Members

> > > Visit Your Group

> > >

[Guest guest]

Plus, I think he's very likely the BEST in the world. Seriously. All

doctors should follow in his footsteps...

Sam :-D

>

>

> Dr. Hertoghe is third or fourth generation endocrinologist from

Belgium. My friend in Paris sees him and he saved her life. He wrote

Hormone Solutions.

> Gracia

>

>

> Jane-

>

> Who is this Dr. Thierry Hertoghe person? I'm impressed!

>

>

[Guest guest]

O LORDY BE!!! GO THIERRY GO!!!!!

Bev

>

>

> (old vs new medical paradigms) how to stay sick vs how to get

well.

> Gracia

>

> Dr Skinners UK Trial is reaching an interesting stage. Dr Thierry

> Hertoghe was called to the Stand as expert Witness.

>

> http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?

tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroiduk & tid=3879

>

> Love this heated exchange between Dr Hertoghe and Professor

Weetman (

> for the British Thyroid Assoc).

>

> WEETMAN: " The goal of treatment is to normalise blood TSH level "

> (This is the consensus view of the BTA).

>

> THIERRY: " The goal of treatment is to relieve symptoms " (Consensus

> view of the United States Society of Endocrinologists).

>

> and this

>

> >WEETMAN: " The study of signs and symptoms is not necessary "

>

> >THIERRY: This is just NOT true

>

> ...................................................................

> The link

> http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?

tsn=41 & nav=messages & webtag=ab-thyroiduk & tid=3879

>

> is updated each day. This is the 9th day of the Trial....lets see

what

> tomorrow brings ....

>

> Jane

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For your information Neil,

British thyroid sufferers are NOT idiots, and yes we demand, and when we

don't get, we help ourselves. I resent very strongly your throwaway comment

asking if British (and Canadians who you also trashed), are idiots who sit

back and are passive recipients of poor health care. Be careful with your

insults, as you do not know WHO and how many U.K. subscribers post to this

board as well. Nor do you have any appreciation of what many of us have

tried to do in our own small way to help ourselves and tell others how to

avoid the same pitfalls, due to our national health service. I think you

should apologise. You are not freely conducting a bigoted unedited comment

one might make behind closed doors, as if speaking to a hallowed circle of

like minded friends, you are online, and read by many, you would do well to

remember that. Be a man, and apologise.

Val (U.K. Thyroid sufferer.)

Re: Fw: [thyroid] Dr Skinners Trial - UK

>

>

>

>

> this is what we have now LOL.

> why does national health care=poor health care? b/c we are all idiots? we

> have to demand quality health care so that we can afford it. Do a search

for

> Prof Weetman at http://www.thyroid.about.com

<http://www.thyroid.about.com>

>

> Shocking.

> Gracia

>

> And note that the " BTA " you cite below is this govt. " universal care " you

> tout.

>

> This is what you would get.

>

> Neil

>

> _____

>

> Recent Activity

> a.. 6New Members

> Visit Your Group

>