Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

January 21, 2008

Awwww....thanks for the compliment Chuck!

Oh, you want " scientific studies " , no doubt from allopathic journals? You

know perfectly well they don't exist, when they get patients with auto

immune thyroid disease in the allopathic world they usually just prescribe

(or force feed) RAI (for Grave's) or give a minimal dose of Levoxyl and

Prozac (for Hashi's patients), keeping them dazed, obese, and in a world of

hurt...and pronounce them cured! They are way too afraid of Osteoporosis

disease (still another bad side effect of synthetic T4) to dose enough to

suppress Hashi's antibodies. Armour does not have the history of causing

bone loss like synthetic T4 does. You need enough Armour to make the swollen

thyroid " go to sleep " , then the anti bodies lessen greatly.

I can offer this link...

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/

" HOW DO I TREAT IT? You treat Hashi's the same way you do just plan

hypothyroid-with thyroid medications. We have seen those on thyroxine

T4-only have some success in stopping the attack, but patients who switched

to Armour noticed even better results, especially if they dosed by symptoms

rather than labs. Some doctors have unwisely recommended non-treatment until

labwork " stabilizes " , but that could take months and years, and you continue

to suffer.

The attack can happen over a few weeks or extend into years. It has been

stated that antibodies can be present for years even after you counter the

attack with thyroid hormones like Armour. But patients on Armour have noted

that antibodies greatly fall if they dose high enough.

WHY DID MY HASHI'S GET WORSE ON ARMOUR (and even Synthroid and other T4

meds)? Easy answer: you have stayed on lower doses too long and you haven't

risen high enough. Lower doses of Armour and other thyroid meds, as well as

staying with each raise too long, will FEED the attack, not stop it. You

then have further swelling in your throat, or a " goiter " or a raise in your

antibodies.and heightened hypo symptoms. And doctors who aren't

knowledgeable about Armour might put you back on synthetics. The solution is

to RAISE THE ARMOUR according to the elimination of symptoms and NOT labs.

You will need at least 3-5 grains before you stop that attack. "

Neil

________________________________

From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ]

On Behalf Of Chuck B

Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:56 PM

hypothyroidism

Subject: Re: Low Iron and Hypothyroidism

Neil,

You wrote:

> ... Usually Hashi's patients require more to fully suppress their anti

bodies and feel

> well....

This is more complete nonsense. Please give us one bit of scientific or

documented evidence to support your claim that Armour suppresses

antibodies.

At least you seem to be consistent.

Chuck

January 21, 2008

Chuck-

I don't know if Neil meant armour specifically or that

by taking thyroid hormone replacement drugs in

general, if you take enough your thyroid can shut

down, the antibodies think that it's dead and stop

attacking as hard or at all. I remember us all

talking about it but that you said it in some sort of

different way?

Peace and coffee,

--- Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

> Neil,

>

> You wrote:

> > ... Usually Hashi's patients require more to fully

> suppress their anti bodies and feel

> > well....

>

> This is more complete nonsense. Please give us one

> bit of scientific or

> documented evidence to support your claim that

> Armour suppresses

> antibodies.

>

> At least you seem to be consistent.

>

> Chuck

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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January 21, 2008

Tina,

You wrote:

> ... My endo. has never given

> anyone Armour before, but she said " hey I'll try

> anything within reason to make you feel better! "

Make sure she understands that the TSH will tend to read low with

Armour, due to the spike in T3. The latest study showed problems when

TSH was held below 0.1 for extended periods using T4 only medication. It

is not clear whether that has implications for low TSH under Armour or

Cytomel.

Chuck

January 21, 2008

Neil-

Thank you very much for the kind words. It was really

funny when I was back in Michigan with my family in

terms of hypoT. Me, my Mom, and sister all planning

out the day for when we would stop eating, take our

armour etc. lol. It's interesting how things change

.... never thought we'd ever be doing something like

that ;-)

Peace,

--- Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

>

> high T3 can be found with adrenal probs--the

> hormone isn't utilized by cells.

> Gracia

>

> ,

>

> Interesting that her FT3 was so high on that dose,

> everyone is so very

> different....hope she continues to do better and

> better.

>

> Neil

>

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January 21, 2008

Oh, you want " scientific studies " , no doubt from allopathic journals?

You know perfectly well they don't exist, when they get patients with

auto immune thyroid disease in the allopathic world they usually just

prescribe (or force feed) RAI (for Grave's) or give a minimal dose of

Levoxyl and Prozac (for Hashi's patients), keeping them dazed, obese,

and in a world of hurt...and pronounce them cured! They are way too

afraid of Osteoporosis disease (still another bad side effect of

synthetic T4) to dose enough to suppress Hashi's antibodies. You need

enough Armour to make the swollen thyroid " go to sleep " , then the anti

bodies lessen greatly.

I can offer this link...

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/

" HOW DO I TREAT IT? You treat Hashi's the same way you do just plan

hypothyroid–with thyroid medications. We have seen those on thyroxine

T4-only have some success in stopping the attack, but patients who

switched to Armour noticed even better results, especially if they

dosed by symptoms rather than labs. Some doctors have unwisely

recommended non-treatment until labwork " stabilizes " , but that could

take months and years, and you continue to suffer.

The attack can happen over a few weeks or extend into years. It has

been stated that antibodies can be present for years even after you

counter the attack with thyroid hormones like Armour. But patients on

Armour have noted that antibodies greatly fall if they dose high enough.

WHY DID MY HASHI'S GET WORSE ON ARMOUR (and even Synthroid and other

T4 meds)? Easy answer: you have stayed on lower doses too long and you

haven't risen high enough. Lower doses of Armour and other thyroid

meds, as well as staying with each raise too long, will FEED the

attack, not stop it. You then have further swelling in your throat, or

a " goiter " or a raise in your antibodies…and heightened hypo symptoms.

And doctors who aren't knowledgeable about Armour might put you back

on synthetics. The solution is to RAISE THE ARMOUR according to the

elimination of symptoms and NOT labs. You will need at least 3-5

grains before you stop that attack. "

Neil

> >

> > Uh, Chuck? I've been told by Hashi's people doing this, that at their

> > individual full replacement doses of Armour, with taking adrenal

> > support (where necessary), and selenium (and magnesium where

> > necessary), that their antibodies are no longer measurable.

>

> People can say all sorts of things without there being the remotest

> connection to reality. Sometimes coincidences occur. That is why I

asked

> for scientific evidence that this claim is true. We have also heard

from

> people on this list who have had autoimmune storms recur even after

> being medicated for awhile.

>

> Antibodies are produced in response to a complex, poorly understood

> series of triggers. However, it seems much more likely that a lack of

> thyroxine is the result of antibodies not the cause. Otherwise, there

> would be no such thing as iodiopathic hypoT, in which the hormones

> disappear without any antibody activity.

>

> Both types of thyroid antibodies seem to subside when the gland stops

> functioning. Coincidentally, that is when most people start to need a

> full replacement dose. To the extent that meds hasten the end of the

> gland, they may contribute to eventual subsidence of the autoimmune

> attack, but I see no reason to expect a direct influence. In fact, the

> published studies we have listed at length before, suggest that all

> forms of iodine exacerbate the antibodies.

>

> Chuck

>

January 21, 2008

,

You wrote:

>

> I don't know if Neil meant armour specifically or that

> by taking thyroid hormone replacement drugs in

> general, if you take enough your thyroid can shut

> down, the antibodies think that it's dead and stop

> attacking as hard or at all....

That is the possible indirect influence I mentioned. However, that would

not be the equivalent of " suppressing " antibodies.

Chuck

January 21, 2008

Chuck-

Not the equivalent of suppressing antibodies? I mean,

how much closer can you get to that other than meds

that kill certain antibodies specifically, which

doesn't even exist.

Peace,

--- Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> You wrote:

> >

> > I don't know if Neil meant armour specifically or

> that

> > by taking thyroid hormone replacement drugs in

> > general, if you take enough your thyroid can shut

> > down, the antibodies think that it's dead and stop

> > attacking as hard or at all....

>

> That is the possible indirect influence I mentioned.

> However, that would

> not be the equivalent of " suppressing " antibodies.

>

> Chuck

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

January 21, 2008

Studies mean absolutely nothing in my book...just a source of

employment and grants for those doing the work and funded by the huge

drugs companies that reap the gains. Nice that the " study " that was

just released on those cholesterol drugs where it was shown that the

artery plaque was HIGHER...but the results were held for almost two

years because they went against the drug company.

You will see NO studies on Armour, as it is a very inexpensive drug,

not some blockbuster like Viagra, etc.

Neil

> >

> > Oh, you want " scientific studies " , no doubt from allopathic journals?

> > You know perfectly well they don't exist,...

>

> You are quite correct about my expectations. I would have been very

> surprised had you come up with any evidence resembling science.

>

> Chuck

>

January 21, 2008

,

You wrote:

>

> Not the equivalent of suppressing antibodies? I mean,

> how much closer can you get to that other than meds

> that kill certain antibodies specifically, which

> doesn't even exist.

Quieting is not the same thing as suppressing.

A chemical that directly reduces the activity of the immune system could

be said to be suppressing it. Corticosteroids are known to do that.

Anti-inflammatory medications, such as NSAIDS may also be said to

suppress. The known triggers of autoimmune attacks on the thyroid are

things that cause an " irritation " response. These include iodine,

injury, cigarette smoke, aspartame, and various steroids. If replacing

thyroxines could be shown to directly reduce such inflammation or to

interfere with the chemical messages, that might be called suppression.

However, these hormones don't do that.

Consequently, replacing missing hormones during or following destruction

of the thyroid seems like a coincidence with cessation of the attack

that destroys it. We also know that autoimmune attacks can end without

the proper replacement dose, which supports the assumption that full

dosage and antibodies disappearing are simply a coincidence.

Chuck

January 21, 2008

Chuch, dear, any type of " studies " of the sort you are wanting would

use synthetic thyroid drugs rather than desiccated thyroid and

therefore would not show any positive influence against antibodies.

With Hashi's, it seems, supressing the thyroid via desiccated thyroid

at an eventual full replacement dose does indeed cause antibodies to

stop attacking the thyroid.

If you don't know where TPO antibodies come from, here is little bit

of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid_peroxidase

" Thyroid peroxidase or Thyroperoxidase (TPO) is an enzyme mainly

expressed in the thyroid that liberates iodine for addition onto

tyrosine residues on thyroglobulin for the production of thyroxine

(T4) or triiodothyronine (T3) (thyroid hormones). "

" Inorganic iodine enters the body primarily as iodide, I-. After

entering the thyroid follicle (or thyroid follicular cell) via a

Na+/I- symporter (NIS) on the basolateral side, iodide is shuttled

across the apical membrane into the colloid via pendrin, after which

thyroid peroxidase oxidizes iodide to atomic iodine (I) or iodinium

(I+). The " organification of iodine, " the incorporation of iodine to

thyroglobulin for the production of thyroid hormone is inseparable

from oxidation and is catalyzed by TPO. The chemical reactions

catalyzed by thyroid peroxidase occur on the outer apical membrane

surface and are mediated by hydrogen peroxide. "

What happens in the presence of iodine deficiency and normal TPO?

Sam

> >

> > Uh, Chuck? I've been told by Hashi's people doing this, that at

their

> > individual full replacement doses of Armour, with taking adrenal

> > support (where necessary), and selenium (and magnesium where

> > necessary), that their antibodies are no longer measurable.

>

> People can say all sorts of things without there being the remotest

> connection to reality. Sometimes coincidences occur. That is why I

asked

> for scientific evidence that this claim is true. We have also heard

from

> people on this list who have had autoimmune storms recur even after

> being medicated for awhile.

>

> Antibodies are produced in response to a complex, poorly understood

> series of triggers. However, it seems much more likely that a lack

of

> thyroxine is the result of antibodies not the cause. Otherwise,

there

> would be no such thing as iodiopathic hypoT, in which the hormones

> disappear without any antibody activity.

>

> Both types of thyroid antibodies seem to subside when the gland

stops

> functioning. Coincidentally, that is when most people start to need

a

> full replacement dose. To the extent that meds hasten the end of

the

> gland, they may contribute to eventual subsidence of the autoimmune

> attack, but I see no reason to expect a direct influence. In fact,

the

> published studies we have listed at length before, suggest that all

> forms of iodine exacerbate the antibodies.

>

> Chuck

>

January 21, 2008

To veer off from this a bit, I was given corticosteroids many times for

bronchitis and asthma

attacks. On my own, I didn't like what they were doing to me, and stopped as

soon as I safely could. Is it possible that the long term effects from these

steroid medications (I still keep an

albuterol emergency inhaler handy, but only use it infrequently) have screwed

up my thyroid antibodies, and eventually caused the Afib to get really bad? I do

recall when I had it the first time, that it was about 20 years ago, and had

been given steroids for allergic bronchitis. Then when it had been all over, it

happened and had to be converted in the ER.

Roni

Chuck B <gumboyaya@...> wrote: