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,

What a cutie! :)

Wendi

http://www.lactivist.com

" When individuals have been born gently, welcomed kindly into the

community,

breastfed for many years, they do not become greedy people. They come

from a place of fullness and balance with all our relations. "

Jeannine Parvati Baker

(unknown)

Avery 4 months... 12/17/00

Give the Gift of Life Breastfeed!

http://www.lactivist.com

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  • 8 months later...

Hello ,

I apologise if my reply appeared a little short but I am at

present a bit sensitive due to some of the insults aimed at myself because

my understanding differs from the majority.

My aim was not to change the structure of AA, I believe that is impossible

for any one individual to achieve, but to raise questions in the individual

which allows them to see for themselves just how much manipulation and

exploitation themselves and others are subject too. In order to do this some

sort of dialogue must be in place. Over time, if enough individuals see

this, then AA would die an organic death as other understandings became more

plausable and successful as far as dealing with alcohol and other abuses go.

To just continue to trade insults achieves little and tends to consolidate

the charges made by the AA heirarchy against groups like this i.e. it is an

outpouring of hatred by those who are " not sober. " Although to the trained

eye this is only half the story, newcomers to recovery are easily swayed in

light of these arguments as they are lulled by waves and waves of rhetorical

emotional embraces.

I have got angry on many occasions over the years but this has led to a

deeper understanding of how futile it is to engage in trading insults and

has allowed me to develop other ways of dealing with the feelings such

ignorance ignites within me. I have nothing to fear from reasoned debate

because, if i am wrong, I will be the first to benefit from that insight if,

and only if, I approach such situations in good faith. I also understand

that others take a different route. Strong, direct and critical analysis of

12 step movements are also required in order to have such understandings

available to the individual once the seeds of doubt have been sown in their

minds. I applaud those who have written books and created websites where

such analysis is available. I appear to be much more of a problem to them

than they are to me and that makes me sad as we are all kicking in the same

direction. However there seems to be little I can do to bridge this gap,

other than to conceed to the loudest, which I have never done.

Someone recently said that reality stems from ideas and I most

wholeheartedly agree with that statement and the trick is, for myself, to

keep the minds of those in thrall to AA open to new ideas. A position of

aggression achieves the opposite in my experience.

SheilaP

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: (unknown)

>Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:26:24 -0000

>

>Hi Sheila,

>

>I was trying to be sarcastic, but never mind.

>

>I live in Ausrtalia where AA has not had quite the same impact as it

>has in the US, although it has done and continues to do a lot of harm.

>For the last 5 years I have tried to engage AA in some kind of

>meaningful dialouge. I have posted letters, email, and made phone

>calls to express my concerns. How does one go about reforming

>something that regards any criticism as a symptom of a disease?

>

>Reason has got me nowhere, and that leaves me angrier than ever.

>

>Cheers

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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:

I rather appreciated your sarcasm.

Jan

In a message dated 8/23/01 7:30:28 AM Central Daylight Time,

aptmusic_au@... writes:

<< Hi Sheila,

I was trying to be sarcastic, but never mind.

I live in Ausrtalia where AA has not had quite the same impact as it

has in the US, although it has done and continues to do a lot of harm.

For the last 5 years I have tried to engage AA in some kind of

meaningful dialouge. I have posted letters, email, and made phone

calls to express my concerns. How does one go about reforming

something that regards any criticism as a symptom of a disease?

Reason has got me nowhere, and that leaves me angrier than ever.

Cheers

>>

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  • 4 weeks later...

At 03:06 AM 9/16/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote:

>Hello list

>

>Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will have seen a

>member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

>that list. I posted the following there:

>

>One thing that I notice is rather odd perhaps is that there has been

>nothing said about the tragedies on the AA gso watch list ( " gso "

>here at Yahoo).

This is shocking, but not surprising. This is in line with the

Singleness of Purpose, and the deaths of many hundreds, perhaps several

thousand in a senseless terroristic event (and for that matter, some of

them were surely AA members, and chances are there was a regular AA

meeting in one or more of those buildings) is simply off topic for that

list.

On the other hand, the tragedy has been mentioned or discussed here,

the Bibliophile book list, rare-books, primenumbers ,

SPAM-L (here is an article written by a SPAM-L member who had solicited

input from others on the list for it, to meet a tight submission deadline:

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46775,00.html>), and on the

CR Society [Caloric Reduction/Optimal Nutrition] mailing list, the

newsgroups alt.music.4-track, and in probably 200 messages on

rec.audio.pro (not even counting the nore-nearly-on-topic messages about

the AES convention being postponed: http://www.aes.org>).

It also recieved much attention where one would expect it to be

discussed, on email discussion lists for two UU congregations, and

bibliomania, a politically-oriented book-related list. I don't think

I'm on an active cyber forum where it wasn't mentioned in some way, with

condolences to any who lost someone close to them.

But there's nothing like singleness of purpose when it comes to AA.

I caught up on some of the GSO list, and I noticed that since AA

World Services [, Inc] wrestled away their gso.org domain (when was that,

about a year ago?) that this group now has aagso.org up with their

previous content from gso.org.

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

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Pete wrote, " Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will have seen a

member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

that list.

By golly...I am on a list for people with Adult ADD, and there were some posts

about the

terrorist attack and people's responses to it. Would you believe the moderator

announced

that it was off-topic and that such posts should not be made on that list?

Yeah, I can understand that lots of off-topic posts can be a pain in the ass for

people

who have subbed to read information about a very specific topic - but this

incident is

just so very intense, so very important, having such great impact on so many

people, I'd

think an exception should have been made.

I'm glad people here have the space to talk about what happened.

Cheers,

nz

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  • 3 weeks later...

> The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that

if I don't

> go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have

> and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the

> first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

I think that (death from the bottle) is the ultimate use of fear

in AA, as the fear of burning in hell forever is the ultimate fear

of Christianity. Fear of alienation and estrangement/abandonment

are the other incredibly strong fears. This use of fear above all

else keeps the cults' victims ensnared.

To get over that fear, try thinking about absurd aspects of other

religions or cults... the things you've heard or read about other

people doing that make you make you laugh or make you think, " These

guys are nuts! "

In Christianity there is Hell - if that is a joke to you, if it

just seems totally absurd, just remember what a joke hell is (but

how seriously some people take it) and realize that death from the

bottle is an identical joke. Or the joke of the Islamic fundies,

that you get to heaven by destroying westerners and brutalizing

women... that is another absurdity... if you change the way you

focus on that fear and start seeing it for what it is (a cruel joke,

an absurd hoax) instead of something " lethal " you can overcome that

fear in no time. You basically convince yourself not to believe

something that absurd anymore. Its like not drinking... you choose

not to drink... you also choose not to be frightened by some lie

lots of people have told you.

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> The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that

if I don't

> go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have

> and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the

> first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

I think that (death from the bottle) is the ultimate use of fear

in AA, as the fear of burning in hell forever is the ultimate fear

of Christianity. Fear of alienation and estrangement/abandonment

are the other incredibly strong fears. This use of fear above all

else keeps the cults' victims ensnared.

To get over that fear, try thinking about absurd aspects of other

religions or cults... the things you've heard or read about other

people doing that make you make you laugh or make you think, " These

guys are nuts! "

In Christianity there is Hell - if that is a joke to you, if it

just seems totally absurd, just remember what a joke hell is (but

how seriously some people take it) and realize that death from the

bottle is an identical joke. Or the joke of the Islamic fundies,

that you get to heaven by destroying westerners and brutalizing

women... that is another absurdity... if you change the way you

focus on that fear and start seeing it for what it is (a cruel joke,

an absurd hoax) instead of something " lethal " you can overcome that

fear in no time. You basically convince yourself not to believe

something that absurd anymore. Its like not drinking... you choose

not to drink... you also choose not to be frightened by some lie

lots of people have told you.

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> spirituality available everywhere. I would suggest that you don't

get

> involved in anything really seriously for a period of time until

you know

> that you are totally free. I have given myself 6 months before I

get

> involved in anything else. I am acutely aware that I have been

brainwashed

> and that I have been part of a cult and that it would be an error

to jump

> into anything else right away, I am too vulnerable and gullible

right now.

> So hang in there, sit back and relax and you will hear some great

stuff!

In AA they say " your best thinking got you here " (to AA).

They lied, it was your drugged, stupidest thinking, and very

likely the demands of a judge that got you there. In your case, how

could 13 years old be considered your best thinking?? Those guys

are really nuts and it really pisses me off that they prey on such

young people. Kinda like most Americans get angry seeing 12 year

olds in the middle east carrying around AK47s.

I am just guessing, and could be wrong, but it seems to me you

are a lot less vulnerable and gullible now than you have been your

whole life. Good luck.

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http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

The Real AA by Ken Ragge

This is a book that the author has generously made available on

line. The first few chapters can really help bring into focus all

of the deceptions, errors in judgement and other " defects " of AA.

Should help change your perspective substantially. Also a good

chapter for beginning " outgrowing " or " overcoming " the abuses

withstood in AA is included.

> > > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > > I

> > > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > > going

> > > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > > since

> > > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > > at a

> > > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > > been

> > > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > > wanted

> > > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > > to

> > > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > > steps

> > > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > > flexible

> > > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > > drinking.

> > > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > > my

> > > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > > I

> > > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > > isolating

> > > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > > spiritually.

> > > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > > down.

> > > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > > Cyndi

> > > >

> > > >__________________________________________________

> > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

The Real AA by Ken Ragge

This is a book that the author has generously made available on

line. The first few chapters can really help bring into focus all

of the deceptions, errors in judgement and other " defects " of AA.

Should help change your perspective substantially. Also a good

chapter for beginning " outgrowing " or " overcoming " the abuses

withstood in AA is included.

> > > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > > I

> > > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > > going

> > > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > > since

> > > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > > at a

> > > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > > been

> > > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > > wanted

> > > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > > to

> > > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > > steps

> > > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > > flexible

> > > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > > drinking.

> > > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > > my

> > > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > > I

> > > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > > isolating

> > > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > > spiritually.

> > > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > > down.

> > > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > > Cyndi

> > > >

> > > >__________________________________________________

> > > >

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Share on other sites

http://www.aakills.com/books/realaa/mr_index.htm

The Real AA by Ken Ragge

This is a book that the author has generously made available on

line. The first few chapters can really help bring into focus all

of the deceptions, errors in judgement and other " defects " of AA.

Should help change your perspective substantially. Also a good

chapter for beginning " outgrowing " or " overcoming " the abuses

withstood in AA is included.

> > > >Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> > > I

> > > >am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> > > >will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> > > going

> > > >to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > > >couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > > >difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > > >calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> > > since

> > > >I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> > > at a

> > > >meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> > > been

> > > >going and working the program. I do feel God

> > > wanted

> > > >me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> > > to

> > > >break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> > > >myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> > > steps

> > > >don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> > > >lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> > > flexible

> > > >and open to discussions about life, not just

> > > drinking.

> > > > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> > > my

> > > >defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> > > I

> > > >haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > > >guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > > >think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> > > isolating

> > > >myself and I don't want to stop growing

> > > spiritually.

> > > >I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> > > down.

> > > >Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > > >perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> > > Cyndi

> > > >

> > > >__________________________________________________

> > > >

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> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night. I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

> going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for me too in the sense that

that train of thought is what led to me eventually deciding not to be an AA/NA

member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue stepper and sponsored

people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff, I'd bveen through the steps

with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the principles involved being

honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing to crack and come apart-

eventually I realised that I didn't really believe in what I was supposed to

believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual stuff- at least I didn't

believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12 steps. I didn't believe

that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I didn't believe that attendance

at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an indication that the program

had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded " and " willing " got me too.

My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest itself, showed me that there

were other ways of getting/staying sober and it seemed that some of them might

work better. So the whole thing came apart in my hands. I'm now happy to have

been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten years. The one significant fact

that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot better as I progressively

removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially to feel guilty but I

realised that was just something you get from the step programs, so I dumped it.

Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and programming I'd got and I

rejected just about everything. All that is left is; yes, abstinence is probably

best for people with addictive behaviour once they've had serious problems with

it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's it! And even those don't

exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current form.

Joe B.

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> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night. I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

> going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for me too in the sense that

that train of thought is what led to me eventually deciding not to be an AA/NA

member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue stepper and sponsored

people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff, I'd bveen through the steps

with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the principles involved being

honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing to crack and come apart-

eventually I realised that I didn't really believe in what I was supposed to

believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual stuff- at least I didn't

believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12 steps. I didn't believe

that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I didn't believe that attendance

at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an indication that the program

had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded " and " willing " got me too.

My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest itself, showed me that there

were other ways of getting/staying sober and it seemed that some of them might

work better. So the whole thing came apart in my hands. I'm now happy to have

been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten years. The one significant fact

that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot better as I progressively

removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially to feel guilty but I

realised that was just something you get from the step programs, so I dumped it.

Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and programming I'd got and I

rejected just about everything. All that is left is; yes, abstinence is probably

best for people with addictive behaviour once they've had serious problems with

it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's it! And even those don't

exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current form.

Joe B.

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Share on other sites

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night. I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't been

> going and working the program. I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just drinking.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks, Cyndi

Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for me too in the sense that

that train of thought is what led to me eventually deciding not to be an AA/NA

member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue stepper and sponsored

people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff, I'd bveen through the steps

with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the principles involved being

honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing to crack and come apart-

eventually I realised that I didn't really believe in what I was supposed to

believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual stuff- at least I didn't

believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12 steps. I didn't believe

that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I didn't believe that attendance

at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an indication that the program

had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded " and " willing " got me too.

My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest itself, showed me that there

were other ways of getting/staying sober and it seemed that some of them might

work better. So the whole thing came apart in my hands. I'm now happy to have

been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten years. The one significant fact

that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot better as I progressively

removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially to feel guilty but I

realised that was just something you get from the step programs, so I dumped it.

Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and programming I'd got and I

rejected just about everything. All that is left is; yes, abstinence is probably

best for people with addictive behaviour once they've had serious problems with

it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's it! And even those don't

exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current form.

Joe B.

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" Hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your

hand? " I started to write this and that Jimi Hendrix

song jumped into my head. I wanted to say that I

liked how you used the " Honest, openminded, and

willing " to get you out. Because what those f***s

really mean is if you are HOW, then you will " come to

believe " the crap we're dishing out. I'll remember

your interpretation next time some rabid stepper

starts in on a sermen. Thanks!

J

> Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for

> me too in the sense that

> that train of thought is what led to me eventually

> deciding not to be an AA/NA

> member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue

> stepper and sponsored

> people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff,

> I'd bveen through the steps

> with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the

> principles involved being

> honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing

> to crack and come apart-

> eventually I realised that I didn't really believe

> in what I was supposed to

> believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual

> stuff- at least I didn't

> believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12

> steps. I didn't believe

> that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I

> didn't believe that attendance

> at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an

> indication that the program

> had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded "

> and " willing " got me too.

> My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest

> itself, showed me that there

> were other ways of getting/staying sober and it

> seemed that some of them might

> work better. So the whole thing came apart in my

> hands. I'm now happy to have

> been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten

> years. The one significant fact

> that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot

> better as I progressively

> removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially

> to feel guilty but I

> realised that was just something you get from the

> step programs, so I dumped it.

> Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and

> programming I'd got and I

> rejected just about everything. All that is left is;

> yes, abstinence is probably

> best for people with addictive behaviour once

> they've had serious problems with

> it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's

> it! And even those don't

> exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current

> form.

>

> Joe B.

>

__________________________________________________

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" Hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your

hand? " I started to write this and that Jimi Hendrix

song jumped into my head. I wanted to say that I

liked how you used the " Honest, openminded, and

willing " to get you out. Because what those f***s

really mean is if you are HOW, then you will " come to

believe " the crap we're dishing out. I'll remember

your interpretation next time some rabid stepper

starts in on a sermen. Thanks!

J

> Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for

> me too in the sense that

> that train of thought is what led to me eventually

> deciding not to be an AA/NA

> member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue

> stepper and sponsored

> people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff,

> I'd bveen through the steps

> with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the

> principles involved being

> honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing

> to crack and come apart-

> eventually I realised that I didn't really believe

> in what I was supposed to

> believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual

> stuff- at least I didn't

> believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12

> steps. I didn't believe

> that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I

> didn't believe that attendance

> at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an

> indication that the program

> had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded "

> and " willing " got me too.

> My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest

> itself, showed me that there

> were other ways of getting/staying sober and it

> seemed that some of them might

> work better. So the whole thing came apart in my

> hands. I'm now happy to have

> been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten

> years. The one significant fact

> that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot

> better as I progressively

> removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially

> to feel guilty but I

> realised that was just something you get from the

> step programs, so I dumped it.

> Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and

> programming I'd got and I

> rejected just about everything. All that is left is;

> yes, abstinence is probably

> best for people with addictive behaviour once

> they've had serious problems with

> it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's

> it! And even those don't

> exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current

> form.

>

> Joe B.

>

__________________________________________________

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" Hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your

hand? " I started to write this and that Jimi Hendrix

song jumped into my head. I wanted to say that I

liked how you used the " Honest, openminded, and

willing " to get you out. Because what those f***s

really mean is if you are HOW, then you will " come to

believe " the crap we're dishing out. I'll remember

your interpretation next time some rabid stepper

starts in on a sermen. Thanks!

J

> Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for

> me too in the sense that

> that train of thought is what led to me eventually

> deciding not to be an AA/NA

> member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue

> stepper and sponsored

> people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff,

> I'd bveen through the steps

> with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the

> principles involved being

> honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing

> to crack and come apart-

> eventually I realised that I didn't really believe

> in what I was supposed to

> believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual

> stuff- at least I didn't

> believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12

> steps. I didn't believe

> that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I

> didn't believe that attendance

> at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an

> indication that the program

> had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded "

> and " willing " got me too.

> My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest

> itself, showed me that there

> were other ways of getting/staying sober and it

> seemed that some of them might

> work better. So the whole thing came apart in my

> hands. I'm now happy to have

> been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten

> years. The one significant fact

> that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot

> better as I progressively

> removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially

> to feel guilty but I

> realised that was just something you get from the

> step programs, so I dumped it.

> Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and

> programming I'd got and I

> rejected just about everything. All that is left is;

> yes, abstinence is probably

> best for people with addictive behaviour once

> they've had serious problems with

> it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's

> it! And even those don't

> exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current

> form.

>

> Joe B.

>

__________________________________________________

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thanks joe.

--- " Joe B. " joe-b@...> wrote:

> On 05/10/2001 at 5:27 pm, cyndijk@... (cynthia

> kipp) wrote:

>

> > Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last

> night. I

> > am looking for a different point of view. Sunday

> I

> > will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been

> going

> > to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> > couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> > difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> > calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> > I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety

> at a

> > meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> > going and working the program. I do feel God

> wanted

> > me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I

> had to

> > break down some defenses in order to be honest

> with

> > myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> > don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have

> been

> > lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> > and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

> > But, I have always beat myself up and looking at

> my

> > defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that

> I

> > haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> > guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> > think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> > myself and I don't want to stop growing

> spiritually.

> > I am not a religious person so that narrows it

> down.

> > Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> > perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

> Hi Cyndi. It's funny but that's how it happened for

> me too in the sense that

> that train of thought is what led to me eventually

> deciding not to be an AA/NA

> member anymore. It went like this; I was a true blue

> stepper and sponsored

> people and ran a step meeting and all that stuff,

> I'd bveen through the steps

> with a Big Book sponsor. Part of my applying the

> principles involved being

> honest with myself. And that's what caused the thing

> to crack and come apart-

> eventually I realised that I didn't really believe

> in what I was supposed to

> believe any more. I didn't believe in the spiritual

> stuff- at least I didn't

> believe in it the way it supposedly worked in the 12

> steps. I didn't believe

> that addiction or alcoholism was a disease, and I

> didn't believe that attendance

> at meetings for life was needed, and in fact was an

> indication that the program

> had something wrong with it! And being " open-minded "

> and " willing " got me too.

> My open-mindedness, when it eventually did manifest

> itself, showed me that there

> were other ways of getting/staying sober and it

> seemed that some of them might

> work better. So the whole thing came apart in my

> hands. I'm now happy to have

> been abstinent from AA and NA meetings for ten

> years. The one significant fact

> that stands out from this is- I actually felt a lot

> better as I progressively

> removed the step lore from my mind. I used initially

> to feel guilty but I

> realised that was just something you get from the

> step programs, so I dumped it.

> Then I worked through all the residual beliefs and

> programming I'd got and I

> rejected just about everything. All that is left is;

> yes, abstinence is probably

> best for people with addictive behaviour once

> they've had serious problems with

> it, and peer support can be quite helpful. That's

> it! And even those don't

> exactly sound like 12 step doctrine in their current

> form.

>

> Joe B.

>

__________________________________________________

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Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even feel guilty just walking

down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what other people

who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

non-steppers.

I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

what others will think?

-----Original Message-----

From: Pape

I reget

using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

again (even though I have no future plans on doing so)

they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

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Share on other sites

Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even feel guilty just walking

down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what other people

who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

non-steppers.

I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

what others will think?

-----Original Message-----

From: Pape

I reget

using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

again (even though I have no future plans on doing so)

they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Mike,

--- Mike phxphun1@...> wrote:

> Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even

> feel guilty just walking

> down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried

> about what other people

> who know me will think - even those who drink

> themselves and are

> non-steppers.

I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

and O'douls because you know that little trace amount

of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

> I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally

> drink, how long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be

> able to enjoy a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special

> occasion - without worrying

> what others will think?

Once I get a couple down that red light to stop never

comes on and I usually wake up going " what happened? "

I have to take special measures to make sure I don't

tie one on. But still, I'd cheers them and offer to

buy them one!

J

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Pape

>

> I reget

> using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

> again (even though I have no future plans on doing

> so)

> they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

>

>

__________________________________________________

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Hey Mike,

--- Mike phxphun1@...> wrote:

> Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even

> feel guilty just walking

> down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried

> about what other people

> who know me will think - even those who drink

> themselves and are

> non-steppers.

I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

and O'douls because you know that little trace amount

of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

> I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally

> drink, how long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be

> able to enjoy a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special

> occasion - without worrying

> what others will think?

Once I get a couple down that red light to stop never

comes on and I usually wake up going " what happened? "

I have to take special measures to make sure I don't

tie one on. But still, I'd cheers them and offer to

buy them one!

J

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Pape

>

> I reget

> using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

> again (even though I have no future plans on doing

> so)

> they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

>

>

__________________________________________________

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Share on other sites

I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel

guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk

into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing

into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into

one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe

that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no

meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any

control over drinking.

Sigh....

Tom Boy

At 07:46 PM 07/10/01 -0700, Mike wrote:

Interesting thought. I feel that

way too. I even feel guilty just walking

down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what other

people

who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

non-steppers.

I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

what others will think?

-----Original Message-----

From: Pape

I reget

using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

again (even though I have no future plans on doing so)

they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel

guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk

into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing

into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into

one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe

that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no

meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any

control over drinking.

Sigh....

Tom Boy

At 07:46 PM 07/10/01 -0700, Mike wrote:

Interesting thought. I feel that

way too. I even feel guilty just walking

down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what other

people

who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

non-steppers.

I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

what others will think?

-----Original Message-----

From: Pape

I reget

using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

again (even though I have no future plans on doing so)

they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel

guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk

into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing

into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into

one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe

that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no

meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any

control over drinking.

Sigh....

Tom Boy

At 07:46 PM 07/10/01 -0700, Mike wrote:

Interesting thought. I feel that

way too. I even feel guilty just walking

down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what other

people

who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

non-steppers.

I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

what others will think?

-----Original Message-----

From: Pape

I reget

using it now since if they ever see me with a drink

again (even though I have no future plans on doing so)

they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, " since

Link to comment
Share on other sites

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