Re: (unknown)

December 17, 2000

,

What a cutie!

Wendi

http://www.lactivist.com

" When individuals have been born gently, welcomed kindly into the

community,

breastfed for many years, they do not become greedy people. They come

from a place of fullness and balance with all our relations. "

Jeannine Parvati Baker

(unknown)

Avery 4 months... 12/17/00

Give the Gift of Life Breastfeed!

http://www.lactivist.com

August 23, 2001

Hello ,

I apologise if my reply appeared a little short but I am at

present a bit sensitive due to some of the insults aimed at myself because

my understanding differs from the majority.

My aim was not to change the structure of AA, I believe that is impossible

for any one individual to achieve, but to raise questions in the individual

which allows them to see for themselves just how much manipulation and

exploitation themselves and others are subject too. In order to do this some

sort of dialogue must be in place. Over time, if enough individuals see

this, then AA would die an organic death as other understandings became more

plausable and successful as far as dealing with alcohol and other abuses go.

To just continue to trade insults achieves little and tends to consolidate

the charges made by the AA heirarchy against groups like this i.e. it is an

outpouring of hatred by those who are " not sober. " Although to the trained

eye this is only half the story, newcomers to recovery are easily swayed in

light of these arguments as they are lulled by waves and waves of rhetorical

emotional embraces.

I have got angry on many occasions over the years but this has led to a

deeper understanding of how futile it is to engage in trading insults and

has allowed me to develop other ways of dealing with the feelings such

ignorance ignites within me. I have nothing to fear from reasoned debate

because, if i am wrong, I will be the first to benefit from that insight if,

and only if, I approach such situations in good faith. I also understand

that others take a different route. Strong, direct and critical analysis of

12 step movements are also required in order to have such understandings

available to the individual once the seeds of doubt have been sown in their

minds. I applaud those who have written books and created websites where

such analysis is available. I appear to be much more of a problem to them

than they are to me and that makes me sad as we are all kicking in the same

direction. However there seems to be little I can do to bridge this gap,

other than to conceed to the loudest, which I have never done.

Someone recently said that reality stems from ideas and I most

wholeheartedly agree with that statement and the trick is, for myself, to

keep the minds of those in thrall to AA open to new ideas. A position of

aggression achieves the opposite in my experience.

SheilaP

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: (unknown)

>Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:26:24 -0000

>

>Hi Sheila,

>

>I was trying to be sarcastic, but never mind.

>

>I live in Ausrtalia where AA has not had quite the same impact as it

>has in the US, although it has done and continues to do a lot of harm.

>For the last 5 years I have tried to engage AA in some kind of

>meaningful dialouge. I have posted letters, email, and made phone

>calls to express my concerns. How does one go about reforming

>something that regards any criticism as a symptom of a disease?

>

>Reason has got me nowhere, and that leaves me angrier than ever.

>

>Cheers

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

August 23, 2001

:

I rather appreciated your sarcasm.

Jan

In a message dated 8/23/01 7:30:28 AM Central Daylight Time,

aptmusic_au@... writes:

<< Hi Sheila,

I was trying to be sarcastic, but never mind.

I live in Ausrtalia where AA has not had quite the same impact as it

has in the US, although it has done and continues to do a lot of harm.

For the last 5 years I have tried to engage AA in some kind of

meaningful dialouge. I have posted letters, email, and made phone

calls to express my concerns. How does one go about reforming

something that regards any criticism as a symptom of a disease?

Reason has got me nowhere, and that leaves me angrier than ever.

Cheers

>>

September 15, 2001

At 03:06 AM 9/16/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote:

>Hello list

>

>Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will have seen a

>member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

>that list. I posted the following there:

>

>One thing that I notice is rather odd perhaps is that there has been

>nothing said about the tragedies on the AA gso watch list ( " gso "

>here at Yahoo).

This is shocking, but not surprising. This is in line with the

Singleness of Purpose, and the deaths of many hundreds, perhaps several

thousand in a senseless terroristic event (and for that matter, some of

them were surely AA members, and chances are there was a regular AA

meeting in one or more of those buildings) is simply off topic for that

list.

On the other hand, the tragedy has been mentioned or discussed here,

the Bibliophile book list, rare-books, primenumbers ,

SPAM-L (here is an article written by a SPAM-L member who had solicited

input from others on the list for it, to meet a tight submission deadline:

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46775,00.html>), and on the

CR Society [Caloric Reduction/Optimal Nutrition] mailing list, the

newsgroups alt.music.4-track, and in probably 200 messages on

rec.audio.pro (not even counting the nore-nearly-on-topic messages about

the AES convention being postponed: http://www.aes.org>).

It also recieved much attention where one would expect it to be

discussed, on email discussion lists for two UU congregations, and

bibliomania, a politically-oriented book-related list. I don't think

I'm on an active cyber forum where it wasn't mentioned in some way, with

condolences to any who lost someone close to them.

But there's nothing like singleness of purpose when it comes to AA.

I caught up on some of the GSO list, and I noticed that since AA

World Services [, Inc] wrestled away their gso.org domain (when was that,

about a year ago?) that this group now has aagso.org up with their

previous content from gso.org.

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

September 16, 2001

Pete wrote, " Those also subscribed to 12-step coercion watch will have seen a

member complain that there was no mention of Tuesday's outrages on

that list.

By golly...I am on a list for people with Adult ADD, and there were some posts

about the

terrorist attack and people's responses to it. Would you believe the moderator

announced

that it was off-topic and that such posts should not be made on that list?

Yeah, I can understand that lots of off-topic posts can be a pain in the ass for

people

who have subbed to read information about a very specific topic - but this

incident is

just so very intense, so very important, having such great impact on so many

people, I'd

think an exception should have been made.

I'm glad people here have the space to talk about what happened.

Cheers,

nz

October 7, 2001

> The hardest part for me coming out of it all, is the belief that

if I don't

> go to AA I will drink and I will die. This is a really deep belief

I have

> and it has been playing games with my head. Actually though today

was the

> first time that I wasn't preoccupied with that thought, so there

is progress.

I think that (death from the bottle) is the ultimate use of fear

in AA, as the fear of burning in hell forever is the ultimate fear

of Christianity. Fear of alienation and estrangement/abandonment

are the other incredibly strong fears. This use of fear above all

else keeps the cults' victims ensnared.

To get over that fear, try thinking about absurd aspects of other

religions or cults... the things you've heard or read about other

people doing that make you make you laugh or make you think, " These

guys are nuts! "

In Christianity there is Hell - if that is a joke to you, if it

just seems totally absurd, just remember what a joke hell is (but

how seriously some people take it) and realize that death from the

bottle is an identical joke. Or the joke of the Islamic fundies,

that you get to heaven by destroying westerners and brutalizing

women... that is another absurdity... if you change the way you

focus on that fear and start seeing it for what it is (a cruel joke,

an absurd hoax) instead of something " lethal " you can overcome that

fear in no time. You basically convince yourself not to believe

something that absurd anymore. Its like not drinking... you choose

not to drink... you also choose not to be frightened by some lie

lots of people have told you.

October 7, 2001