Re: (unknown)

[Guest guest]

LOL... ya... " Non-alcoholic beer is for non-alcoholics " . Better watch out

for that NyQuill too next time you get the flu.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jurasin

I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

and O'douls because you know that little trace amount

of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

[Guest guest]

I've gone to the drive-though liquor store (what a concept!) to buy cigarettes. That felt funny too.

-----Original Message-----From: Tomboy Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:25 PMTo: 12-step-free ; 12-step-free Subject: RE: (unknown)I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any control over drinking.Sigh....Tom Boy

[Guest guest]

I've gone to the drive-though liquor store (what a concept!) to buy cigarettes. That felt funny too.

-----Original Message-----From: Tomboy Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:25 PMTo: 12-step-free ; 12-step-free Subject: RE: (unknown)I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any control over drinking.Sigh....Tom Boy

[Guest guest]

I've gone to the drive-though liquor store (what a concept!) to buy cigarettes. That felt funny too.

-----Original Message-----From: Tomboy Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:25 PMTo: 12-step-free ; 12-step-free Subject: RE: (unknown)I am in Canada , so we don't have liquor isles in stores *but* I do feel guilty for even *looking* into a liquor store. I don't even have to walk into the store. I always worry that someone from AA will see me glancing into the store. I don't know if I could ever actually walk into one. Hmmm maybe I should do that, just walk into a liquor store and maybe that will get rid of some of the brainwashing and fear , ie no meetings=drink=die blah blah blah and also the idea that I don't have any control over drinking.Sigh....Tom Boy

[Guest guest]

But then I'm the kinda guy to answer the door butte

ass naked with a joint in my mouth when the Jahovah's

Witnesses come knockin'!!!

--- Jurasin schematic2001@...> wrote:

> I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

> have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

> and O'douls because you know that little trace

> amount

> of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

> that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

>

> > I'm curious... of those of you who now

> occasionally

> > drink, how long did it

> > take you to lose the self-consciousness and just

> be

> > able to enjoy a drink or

> > two - maybe even a few too many on a special

> > occasion - without worrying

> > what others will think?

>

> Once I get a couple down that red light to stop

> never

> comes on and I usually wake up going " what

> happened? "

> I have to take special measures to make sure I don't

> tie one on. But still, I'd cheers them and offer to

> buy them one!

>

> J

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Pape

> >

> > I reget

> > using it now since if they ever see me with a

> drink

> > again (even though I have no future plans on doing

> > so)

> > they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, "

> since

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

But then I'm the kinda guy to answer the door butte

ass naked with a joint in my mouth when the Jahovah's

Witnesses come knockin'!!!

--- Jurasin schematic2001@...> wrote:

> I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

> have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

> and O'douls because you know that little trace

> amount

> of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

> that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

>

> > I'm curious... of those of you who now

> occasionally

> > drink, how long did it

> > take you to lose the self-consciousness and just

> be

> > able to enjoy a drink or

> > two - maybe even a few too many on a special

> > occasion - without worrying

> > what others will think?

>

> Once I get a couple down that red light to stop

> never

> comes on and I usually wake up going " what

> happened? "

> I have to take special measures to make sure I don't

> tie one on. But still, I'd cheers them and offer to

> buy them one!

>

> J

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Pape

> >

> > I reget

> > using it now since if they ever see me with a

> drink

> > again (even though I have no future plans on doing

> > so)

> > they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, "

> since

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

But then I'm the kinda guy to answer the door butte

ass naked with a joint in my mouth when the Jahovah's

Witnesses come knockin'!!!

--- Jurasin schematic2001@...> wrote:

> I honestly could care less what they think, in fact

> have been tempted to go to a meeting and crack open

> and O'douls because you know that little trace

> amount

> of alcohol will set off a binge, right, just like OJ

> that has been in the fridge for 3 days. Fuck 'em!

>

> > I'm curious... of those of you who now

> occasionally

> > drink, how long did it

> > take you to lose the self-consciousness and just

> be

> > able to enjoy a drink or

> > two - maybe even a few too many on a special

> > occasion - without worrying

> > what others will think?

>

> Once I get a couple down that red light to stop

> never

> comes on and I usually wake up going " what

> happened? "

> I have to take special measures to make sure I don't

> tie one on. But still, I'd cheers them and offer to

> buy them one!

>

> J

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Pape

> >

> > I reget

> > using it now since if they ever see me with a

> drink

> > again (even though I have no future plans on doing

> > so)

> > they'll think " Oh God he's relapsed, boo hoo, "

> since

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even feel guilty just

walking

> down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what

other people

> who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

> non-steppers.

>

> I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how

long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy

a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

> what others will think?

Good question, IMO! I guess how long it takes to stop worrying

about what others will think has a lot to do with how self-conscious

you are. Also, your dependency on others will effect how much you

worry about what they think of you.

I used to be very self-conscious, and in fact used alcohol, like

I think many people do, to alleviate that worry of what others

thought. Then quit drinking (in AA) and became very self-conscious

again, because the " tool " that alleviated that was gone, and very

dependent on other people too, because I was taught to, as well as

becoming dependent on others for transportation and all kinds of

things. Being dependent on others required me to behave in a

fashion that caused other people to like me, to put up with me, and

to help me. Since others (especially in AA) are controlling, I had

to behave and say (and even think) as they wanted.

Becoming free from those controlling people and more trusting of

myself (my ability to do things that benefitted me, and my ability

to make good decisions for myself) helped me not to worry about

other people's opinions. About some things, I am still

not " allowed " to do certain things that I think would be good for me

(like driving to the store) and have to depend on others. I choose

to depend on people who do not force their beliefs and opinions on

me. Anyone else, I disregard.

I started drinking again 8 months after leaving AA, after

realizing that it would not kill me, and that I can control, that

anyone can control, drinking. That was an interesting time - with a

lot of guilt and self-doubt reemerging. I dealt with that stuff as

it came... and after a year or so, the guilt, doubt, self-

consciousness are gone. I don't remember how long that took... some

of those things went away quickly, others didn't until I faced

them. I think the self-consciousness was one of the first things I

was able to " get over " , because I became more and more confident in

myself as I proved to myself that XA and more importantly I had been

wrong (because I believed XA).

All the guilt went away, too, except in one instance that I can

think of - a person to whom I made stupid, ridiculous promises (that

I would never drink again, to my dearest friend)... I still have a

hard time getting past that... I would be past it now, if I would

just say, " look, I was brainwashed when I made that promise, and it

was a mistake for me to make that promise. I made a lot of mistakes

at that time and there were many errors in my thinking. " I know he

would fogive me, it is just a hard thing to do. He doesn't seem to

be an expert in addiction or anything, but he does seem to believe

that abstinence is the only solution. I am keeping this guilty

feeling for no reason other than fear (self-consciousness is also a

form of fear), and I need to do something about it, so thanks for

getting me thinking about it.

[Guest guest]

> Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even feel guilty just

walking

> down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what

other people

> who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

> non-steppers.

>

> I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how

long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy

a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

> what others will think?

Good question, IMO! I guess how long it takes to stop worrying

about what others will think has a lot to do with how self-conscious

you are. Also, your dependency on others will effect how much you

worry about what they think of you.

I used to be very self-conscious, and in fact used alcohol, like

I think many people do, to alleviate that worry of what others

thought. Then quit drinking (in AA) and became very self-conscious

again, because the " tool " that alleviated that was gone, and very

dependent on other people too, because I was taught to, as well as

becoming dependent on others for transportation and all kinds of

things. Being dependent on others required me to behave in a

fashion that caused other people to like me, to put up with me, and

to help me. Since others (especially in AA) are controlling, I had

to behave and say (and even think) as they wanted.

Becoming free from those controlling people and more trusting of

myself (my ability to do things that benefitted me, and my ability

to make good decisions for myself) helped me not to worry about

other people's opinions. About some things, I am still

not " allowed " to do certain things that I think would be good for me

(like driving to the store) and have to depend on others. I choose

to depend on people who do not force their beliefs and opinions on

me. Anyone else, I disregard.

I started drinking again 8 months after leaving AA, after

realizing that it would not kill me, and that I can control, that

anyone can control, drinking. That was an interesting time - with a

lot of guilt and self-doubt reemerging. I dealt with that stuff as

it came... and after a year or so, the guilt, doubt, self-

consciousness are gone. I don't remember how long that took... some

of those things went away quickly, others didn't until I faced

them. I think the self-consciousness was one of the first things I

was able to " get over " , because I became more and more confident in

myself as I proved to myself that XA and more importantly I had been

wrong (because I believed XA).

All the guilt went away, too, except in one instance that I can

think of - a person to whom I made stupid, ridiculous promises (that

I would never drink again, to my dearest friend)... I still have a

hard time getting past that... I would be past it now, if I would

just say, " look, I was brainwashed when I made that promise, and it

was a mistake for me to make that promise. I made a lot of mistakes

at that time and there were many errors in my thinking. " I know he

would fogive me, it is just a hard thing to do. He doesn't seem to

be an expert in addiction or anything, but he does seem to believe

that abstinence is the only solution. I am keeping this guilty

feeling for no reason other than fear (self-consciousness is also a

form of fear), and I need to do something about it, so thanks for

getting me thinking about it.

[Guest guest]

> Interesting thought. I feel that way too. I even feel guilty just

walking

> down the liquor aisle in the store. I'm more worried about what

other people

> who know me will think - even those who drink themselves and are

> non-steppers.

>

> I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how

long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy

a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

> what others will think?

Good question, IMO! I guess how long it takes to stop worrying

about what others will think has a lot to do with how self-conscious

you are. Also, your dependency on others will effect how much you

worry about what they think of you.

I used to be very self-conscious, and in fact used alcohol, like

I think many people do, to alleviate that worry of what others

thought. Then quit drinking (in AA) and became very self-conscious

again, because the " tool " that alleviated that was gone, and very

dependent on other people too, because I was taught to, as well as

becoming dependent on others for transportation and all kinds of

things. Being dependent on others required me to behave in a

fashion that caused other people to like me, to put up with me, and

to help me. Since others (especially in AA) are controlling, I had

to behave and say (and even think) as they wanted.

Becoming free from those controlling people and more trusting of

myself (my ability to do things that benefitted me, and my ability

to make good decisions for myself) helped me not to worry about

other people's opinions. About some things, I am still

not " allowed " to do certain things that I think would be good for me

(like driving to the store) and have to depend on others. I choose

to depend on people who do not force their beliefs and opinions on

me. Anyone else, I disregard.

I started drinking again 8 months after leaving AA, after

realizing that it would not kill me, and that I can control, that

anyone can control, drinking. That was an interesting time - with a

lot of guilt and self-doubt reemerging. I dealt with that stuff as

it came... and after a year or so, the guilt, doubt, self-

consciousness are gone. I don't remember how long that took... some

of those things went away quickly, others didn't until I faced

them. I think the self-consciousness was one of the first things I

was able to " get over " , because I became more and more confident in

myself as I proved to myself that XA and more importantly I had been

wrong (because I believed XA).

All the guilt went away, too, except in one instance that I can

think of - a person to whom I made stupid, ridiculous promises (that

I would never drink again, to my dearest friend)... I still have a

hard time getting past that... I would be past it now, if I would

just say, " look, I was brainwashed when I made that promise, and it

was a mistake for me to make that promise. I made a lot of mistakes

at that time and there were many errors in my thinking. " I know he

would fogive me, it is just a hard thing to do. He doesn't seem to

be an expert in addiction or anything, but he does seem to believe

that abstinence is the only solution. I am keeping this guilty

feeling for no reason other than fear (self-consciousness is also a

form of fear), and I need to do something about it, so thanks for

getting me thinking about it.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

phxphun1@... writes:

<< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

what others will think? >>

I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

this

year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

out.

Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that I

could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew if

I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

last

time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is some

reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc) I

just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I knew

I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

deliberately,

by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

" powerless " .

A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

who ingests alcohol does.

As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking around

them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

-Sambee

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

phxphun1@... writes:

<< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

what others will think? >>

I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

this

year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

out.

Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that I

could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew if

I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

last

time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is some

reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc) I

just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I knew

I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

deliberately,

by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

" powerless " .

A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

who ingests alcohol does.

As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking around

them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

-Sambee

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

phxphun1@... writes:

<< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did it

take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink or

two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

what others will think? >>

I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

this

year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

out.

Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that I

could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew if

I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

last

time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is some

reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc) I

just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I knew

I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

deliberately,

by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

" powerless " .

A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

who ingests alcohol does.

As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking around

them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

-Sambee

[Guest guest]

This is very simikar to the way I am trying to deal with my drinking.

Instead of thinking of myself as different, which is how I behaved before I

first quit, I think of myself as anybody else. I am someone, who has

responsabilities. Because of these responsibilities, I can not drink all

the time. On top of that, it does not make sense to get drunk everytime I

drink. This actually made getrting drunk boring for me. It was no longer a

special occasion, it was like ecvery other day. These are the thoughts that

steppers have historically feared. Since the beginning of the temperance

movement, they have disliked, even hated those who have decided to moderate

their usage, even go above and beyond the call, and then keeping it " under

control " . This destroys their entire basis for even existing.

>From: SamBeeJ@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: (unknown)

>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:19:44 EDT

>

>In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

>phxphun1@... writes:

>

><< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

>it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

>or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

> what others will think? >>

>

> I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

>this

>year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

>out.

>Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that

>I

>could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

>started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

>many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

>drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

>so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew

>if

>I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

>last

>time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is

>some

>reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc)

>I

>just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I

>knew

>I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

>deliberately,

>by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

> " powerless " .

> A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

>myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

>who ingests alcohol does.

> As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

>this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking

>around

>them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

>make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

> -Sambee

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

This is very simikar to the way I am trying to deal with my drinking.

Instead of thinking of myself as different, which is how I behaved before I

first quit, I think of myself as anybody else. I am someone, who has

responsabilities. Because of these responsibilities, I can not drink all

the time. On top of that, it does not make sense to get drunk everytime I

drink. This actually made getrting drunk boring for me. It was no longer a

special occasion, it was like ecvery other day. These are the thoughts that

steppers have historically feared. Since the beginning of the temperance

movement, they have disliked, even hated those who have decided to moderate

their usage, even go above and beyond the call, and then keeping it " under

control " . This destroys their entire basis for even existing.

>From: SamBeeJ@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: (unknown)

>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:19:44 EDT

>

>In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

>phxphun1@... writes:

>

><< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

>it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

>or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

> what others will think? >>

>

> I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

>this

>year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

>out.

>Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that

>I

>could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

>started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

>many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

>drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

>so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew

>if

>I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

>last

>time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is

>some

>reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc)

>I

>just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I

>knew

>I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

>deliberately,

>by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

> " powerless " .

> A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

>myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

>who ingests alcohol does.

> As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

>this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking

>around

>them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

>make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

> -Sambee

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

This is very simikar to the way I am trying to deal with my drinking.

Instead of thinking of myself as different, which is how I behaved before I

first quit, I think of myself as anybody else. I am someone, who has

responsabilities. Because of these responsibilities, I can not drink all

the time. On top of that, it does not make sense to get drunk everytime I

drink. This actually made getrting drunk boring for me. It was no longer a

special occasion, it was like ecvery other day. These are the thoughts that

steppers have historically feared. Since the beginning of the temperance

movement, they have disliked, even hated those who have decided to moderate

their usage, even go above and beyond the call, and then keeping it " under

control " . This destroys their entire basis for even existing.

>From: SamBeeJ@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: (unknown)

>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:19:44 EDT

>

>In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

>phxphun1@... writes:

>

><< I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how long did

>it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy a drink

>or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without worrying

> what others will think? >>

>

> I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early March of

>this

>year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually) I passed

>out.

>Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the belief that

>I

>could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-perpetuating... I

>started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is, so many,

>many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and kept on

>drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner instead... but I

>so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out. Also I knew

>if

>I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it was the

>last

>time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If there is

>some

>reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work day, etc)

>I

>just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly, and I

>knew

>I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I did it

>deliberately,

>by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control " or

> " powerless " .

> A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I remind

>myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any other person

>who ingests alcohol does.

> As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I mentioned

>this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable drinking

>around

>them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as they can

>make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a hangover!

> -Sambee

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

--- cynthia kipp cyndijk@...> wrote:

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at

> a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> going and working the program.

I am about to go get my first one-year coin and

keytags, and don't feel terribly guilty about not

having been to a meeting since my 6-month coin...

(Which means I need to quickly go pick up my

overdue 9 month coin, before my birthday...)

I figure what the heck, I'll accumulate a bit of

status for use in arguments...

But then, I never was very good at feeling guilty...

I guess my point is just that you don't have to

feel guilty about it, whichever thing you choose

to do. The truth is, nobody but you and a few

neurotic steppers even care if you are at the

meeting.

> I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

Sounds good to me.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

You don't have to stop growing. In fact, it sounds

like you are starting a new phase of some real growth.

Some of the greatest learning happens when you

outgrow stereotypes and canned images, and

are left saying, " Now I don't know who or what I

am... "

>

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

>

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

The SMART meetings also come to mind.

They are a fun bunch of people in this town.

--Or I should say, one out of three is especially

that way. Shop around. Groups seem to have

personalities as different as people.

Of the 3 SMART meetings I hit here, one is boring,

and one is neutral, and one is fun.

But anyway, I like SMART because you can really

tell the truth without someone having a heart attack

over you " confusing the newcomers... "

Or you not properly appreciating the genius of

Bill .

Have a good day.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- cynthia kipp cyndijk@...> wrote:

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at

> a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> going and working the program.

I am about to go get my first one-year coin and

keytags, and don't feel terribly guilty about not

having been to a meeting since my 6-month coin...

(Which means I need to quickly go pick up my

overdue 9 month coin, before my birthday...)

I figure what the heck, I'll accumulate a bit of

status for use in arguments...

But then, I never was very good at feeling guilty...

I guess my point is just that you don't have to

feel guilty about it, whichever thing you choose

to do. The truth is, nobody but you and a few

neurotic steppers even care if you are at the

meeting.

> I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

Sounds good to me.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

You don't have to stop growing. In fact, it sounds

like you are starting a new phase of some real growth.

Some of the greatest learning happens when you

outgrow stereotypes and canned images, and

are left saying, " Now I don't know who or what I

am... "

>

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

>

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

The SMART meetings also come to mind.

They are a fun bunch of people in this town.

--Or I should say, one out of three is especially

that way. Shop around. Groups seem to have

personalities as different as people.

Of the 3 SMART meetings I hit here, one is boring,

and one is neutral, and one is fun.

But anyway, I like SMART because you can really

tell the truth without someone having a heart attack

over you " confusing the newcomers... "

Or you not properly appreciating the genius of

Bill .

Have a good day.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- cynthia kipp cyndijk@...> wrote:

> Hi, I just found you guys after surfing last night.

> I

> am looking for a different point of view. Sunday I

> will have 10 years of sobriety and I have been going

> to meetings for most of those ten years. The last

> couple of years I've been finding it increasingly

> difficult to make myself go to meetings and I quit

> calling my sponsor too. Now for the first time

> since

> I've been sober, I will not celebrate my sobriety at

> a

> meeting. I don't feel it's right since I haven't

> been

> going and working the program.

I am about to go get my first one-year coin and

keytags, and don't feel terribly guilty about not

having been to a meeting since my 6-month coin...

(Which means I need to quickly go pick up my

overdue 9 month coin, before my birthday...)

I figure what the heck, I'll accumulate a bit of

status for use in arguments...

But then, I never was very good at feeling guilty...

I guess my point is just that you don't have to

feel guilty about it, whichever thing you choose

to do. The truth is, nobody but you and a few

neurotic steppers even care if you are at the

meeting.

> I do feel God wanted

> me to get sober and I do feel AA has helped. I had

> to

> break down some defenses in order to be honest with

> myself. But I've had problems with the way the

> steps

> don't deal with a woman's perspective. I have been

> lucky enough to find meetings that are pretty

> flexible

> and open to discussions about life, not just

> drinking.

Sounds good to me.

> But, I have always beat myself up and looking at my

> defects doesn't help my self esteem. And now that I

> haven't been going to meetings, I've been feeling

> guilty and wondering what's wrong with me. And I

> think the guilt is bullshit. I am afraid of

> isolating

> myself and I don't want to stop growing spiritually.

You don't have to stop growing. In fact, it sounds

like you are starting a new phase of some real growth.

Some of the greatest learning happens when you

outgrow stereotypes and canned images, and

are left saying, " Now I don't know who or what I

am... "

>

> I am not a religious person so that narrows it down.

>

> Don't do churches. But any suggestions and

> perspectives would be more than welcome. Thanks,

> Cyndi

>

The SMART meetings also come to mind.

They are a fun bunch of people in this town.

--Or I should say, one out of three is especially

that way. Shop around. Groups seem to have

personalities as different as people.

Of the 3 SMART meetings I hit here, one is boring,

and one is neutral, and one is fun.

But anyway, I like SMART because you can really

tell the truth without someone having a heart attack

over you " confusing the newcomers... "

Or you not properly appreciating the genius of

Bill .

Have a good day.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 10/7/01 9:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

> phxphun1@y... writes:

>

> << I'm curious... of those of you who now occasionally drink, how

long did it

> take you to lose the self-consciousness and just be able to enjoy

a drink or

> two - maybe even a few too many on a special occasion - without

worrying

> what others will think? >>

>

> I stopped the chronic (25+ years) " getting drunk " back in early

March of

> this

> year; prior to that I drank at least twice a week until (usually)

I passed

> out.

> Yuck. Then my thinking sort of shifted, and I realized that the

belief that I

> could not have a drink without " getting drunk " was self-

perpetuating... I

> started having 1-2 drinks and then stopping. The funny thing is,

so many,

> many times over the years, I only enjoyed that first 1 or 2, and

kept on

> drinking even when I was really hungry and wanted dinner

instead... but I

> so believed in the myths attached to it that I lived them out.

Also I knew if

> I " quit " it would have to be " forever " , so I always drank like it

was the

> last

> time I'd ever taste alcohol. Now, if I want one, I have one. If

there is some

> reason not to have another, (driving, too late at night on a work

day, etc) I

> just don't have it. About a month into this, my cat died suddenly,

and I knew

> I wanted to drink LOTS and I did. Didn't help, of course, but I

did it

> deliberately,

> by choice. A very different feeling than feeling " out of control "

or

> " powerless " .

> A few times I have had a small amount more than I intended, so I

remind

> myself that I have to be aware of what I drink, JUST LIKE any

other person

> who ingests alcohol does.

> As to " what others might think " , it took a few months before I

mentioned

> this to my family, and I still wouldn't feel too comfortable

drinking around

> them (too much history there); my friends are quite pleased, as

they can

> make plans with me now and know I won't cancel because of a

hangover!

> -Sambee

I am sorry about your cat. They are nice, and soft, and sorely

missed when they are gone. Nice that you learned to moderate. That

is something we should all be taught much earlier, but instead we

are taught that it is probable we can't control our drinking...

stupid bullshit.

[Guest guest]

--- Pape mpape_1@...> wrote:

> >> I'm a spiritual guy. I believe spirituality is

> >> always

> >> a good thing, and I firmly believe everyone needs

> >> God

> >> in their lives whether they're going through

> rough

> >> times, or having the best of times. The thing is

> >> though, all of us have spiritual power whether we

> >> realize it or not. God given stuff. We just need

> to

> >> learn how to use it.

Sorry Matt, it sounded to me as if you were making

factual statements, i.e. " everyone needs God " , " all

of us have spiritual power " , " God given stuff " , etc.

It sounded slightly dogmatic and proselytetic to me.

Actually, I was raised in a secular family and never

really understood how people can believe so firmly in

the unknown. The only place I had religion shoved

down my throat was at AA/NA, but wait, they aren't

religious! I'm sorry I was offensive.

J

> > Are you serious??? I do not believe in god,

> >have no spirituality, nor do I want any. And I'm

> >happy with that. I see this as being the same as

> AA

> >dogma. Excuse me while I barf!

> >

> > J

>

> No, i just said that for shits and giggles. Gee whiz

> paul if I mention video games are you going to turn

> your nose up to that too? I'm sorry for pushing my

> beliefs on you, wait a minute, I didn't. Nevermind.

> Unless a non-religious person is being cocky and

> thinking they're better than me because they don't

> follow the " establishment " I don't think less of

> them

> to try to " convert " them. I'm sure religion was

> shoved down your throat and pressed on you for a

> while, and all in all was a bad experience for you.

> I'm sorry if it was. If you're going to critisize my

> point of view, especially on a discussion list of

> all

> things, do it construtively or shut up.

>

> Matt

>

> =====

> I am the Game and I make the rules!

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Oops! That one was supposed to go just to Netty, but

my dumb ass just sent my personal shit to 400 people.

Good goin' .

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oops! That one was supposed to go just to Netty, but

my dumb ass just sent my personal shit to 400 people.

Good goin' .

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oops! That one was supposed to go just to Netty, but

my dumb ass just sent my personal shit to 400 people.

Good goin' .

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Oops! That one was supposed to go just to Netty, but

> my dumb ass just sent my personal shit to 400 people.

> Good goin' .

Dont worry Pal. Ive been doing it fr years unti. I realized all the

steppers reading it!

P.