Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

January 15, 2005

Our society has made the blanket determination that persons under eighteen

are not allowed to consent with those over eighteen (in general). What I

find interesting is that if this girl were three years older, she would be

written off as a woman of ill-repute if anything had been made of the

incident to begin with. What would we be saying about her then? Even

though the law does not take into account an individual's psychosocial

development, the opinion that I am hearing is that the girl's actions are

somehow beyond question from a moral perspective because of the legal

implications. I don't think that anyone is trying to suggest that somehow

these men are less than guilty of their crime because of anything this girl

did, or that she caused this, but I am reluctant to automatically think of

her as a helpless victim of vicious predators simply because of the

convenient scheme the state currently has in place to determine competence

for consent. She may very well have been manipulated by people she looked

up to, but then again she might have been more mature than many persons of

legal age. We simply do not know, so it is best not to make any statements

one way or the other. It's really not relevant.

What is relevant is this: the whole ordeal is sad for our vocation because

it reinforces the stereotype that we are just a bunch of uncivilized bubbas.

But perhaps the most devastating aspect of this is that it undermines the

credibility of us all at a time when our vocation is struggling for

credibility in various ways. We are afforded the benefit of the doubt by the

public. They assume that we are playing on the good side of the game. Yet

when the public's confidence is betrayed, we all suffer, and the trust is

not easy to rebuild.

- Lancaster

Re: Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

haha, i don't use capital letters unless i am handwriting something or

writing to someone important. now to the debate,

the forest fire comment is in reference to the level of debates that began

with the initial email.

i admit that i wrongfully put blame on the girl, yes there were more factors

involved that indirectly puts her in the middle of the conversation. i still

want to know why a 15 y/o was allowed to ride along anyway, no matter day or

night. 17 y/o student on career day i could understand.

as far as the girl wearing spandex, if she wants to wear spandex all day

long, i don't have a problem with it, but the minute that signs start

popping up that she is attracting too much attention is when she should put

on more clothes. stalking doesn't count, that is a totally different story.

and yes you are correct that the female anatomy is not in question here,

however if the department knew that there was more tendencies for that crew

more that others(you can't tell me that people don't know) then she

shouldn't have been paired with those two to begin with(even though she

shouldn't have been there anyway).

as a matter of fact the person i was speaking of lost his patch as soon as

he was convicted, but pedophiles should not be allowed to have an occupation

that will put them in contact with children. and just another two cents,

pedophilia is another " name " created like alcoholism and ADHD, it's just a

name. it's as hilarious as the theory that gays and lesbians are homosexuals

by birth.

i apologize if anything offends anyone. its just that this topic is about

another adult that screwed up, and somehow this 15 y/o girl was put in that

situation for whatever reason.

January 16, 2005

" but I am reluctant to automatically think of

her as a helpless victim of vicious predators simply because of the

convenient scheme the state currently has in place to determine competence

for consent. "

Why on earth not? 15 years old is not competent....for much of anything. You

are not mature enough emotionally at 15 to adequately judge your actions.

This is exactly why we have ages of consent for things. You cannot judge the

validity of a contract until you are 18, you cannot drink until you are 21,

you cannot be president until you are 35. Society makes laws as to what

level of maturity you have to reach to do certain things. You have the body

and urges of a woman at 15, but not the level of judgement that you need,

period. It is perfectly valid to make statements as to her

maturity....because she is 15 years old, and therefore not mature. The

reason its not illegal for two 15 year-olds to have sex is because neither

of them know any better. She might have gotten in the rig and stripped naked

and said " let's go boys " but she does not have the maturity to understand

her actions. a 29 year-old does, and it was incumbent on him NOT to engage

in sexual acts with her, regardless of whether or not she consented to the

acts, or even initiated them. It doesn't matter. It is illegal to have sex

with a minor....always....every single time.

I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this and what it does to our

profession, but the cops, firefighters and doctors feel the same way when

one of theirs screws up.

magnetass sends

Re: Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

>

> haha, i don't use capital letters unless i am handwriting something or

> writing to someone important. now to the debate,

>

> the forest fire comment is in reference to the level of debates that began

> with the initial email.

>

> i admit that i wrongfully put blame on the girl, yes there were more

> factors

> involved that indirectly puts her in the middle of the conversation. i

> still

> want to know why a 15 y/o was allowed to ride along anyway, no matter day

> or

> night. 17 y/o student on career day i could understand.

>

> as far as the girl wearing spandex, if she wants to wear spandex all day

> long, i don't have a problem with it, but the minute that signs start

> popping up that she is attracting too much attention is when she should

> put

> on more clothes. stalking doesn't count, that is a totally different

> story.

>

> and yes you are correct that the female anatomy is not in question here,

> however if the department knew that there was more tendencies for that

> crew

> more that others(you can't tell me that people don't know) then she

> shouldn't have been paired with those two to begin with(even though she

> shouldn't have been there anyway).

>

> as a matter of fact the person i was speaking of lost his patch as soon as

> he was convicted, but pedophiles should not be allowed to have an

> occupation

> that will put them in contact with children. and just another two cents,

> pedophilia is another " name " created like alcoholism and ADHD, it's just a

> name. it's as hilarious as the theory that gays and lesbians are

> homosexuals

> by birth.

>

> i apologize if anything offends anyone. its just that this topic is about

> another adult that screwed up, and somehow this 15 y/o girl was put in

> that

> situation for whatever reason.

>

January 16, 2005

" but I am reluctant to automatically think of

her as a helpless victim of vicious predators simply because of the

convenient scheme the state currently has in place to determine competence

for consent. "

Why on earth not? 15 years old is not competent....for much of anything. You

are not mature enough emotionally at 15 to adequately judge your actions.

This is exactly why we have ages of consent for things. You cannot judge the

validity of a contract until you are 18, you cannot drink until you are 21,

you cannot be president until you are 35. Society makes laws as to what

level of maturity you have to reach to do certain things. You have the body

and urges of a woman at 15, but not the level of judgement that you need,

period. It is perfectly valid to make statements as to her

maturity....because she is 15 years old, and therefore not mature. The

reason its not illegal for two 15 year-olds to have sex is because neither

of them know any better. She might have gotten in the rig and stripped naked

and said " let's go boys " but she does not have the maturity to understand

her actions. a 29 year-old does, and it was incumbent on him NOT to engage

in sexual acts with her, regardless of whether or not she consented to the

acts, or even initiated them. It doesn't matter. It is illegal to have sex

with a minor....always....every single time.

I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this and what it does to our

profession, but the cops, firefighters and doctors feel the same way when

one of theirs screws up.

magnetass sends

Re: Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

>

> haha, i don't use capital letters unless i am handwriting something or

> writing to someone important. now to the debate,

>

> the forest fire comment is in reference to the level of debates that began

> with the initial email.

>

> i admit that i wrongfully put blame on the girl, yes there were more

> factors

> involved that indirectly puts her in the middle of the conversation. i

> still

> want to know why a 15 y/o was allowed to ride along anyway, no matter day

> or

> night. 17 y/o student on career day i could understand.

>

> as far as the girl wearing spandex, if she wants to wear spandex all day

> long, i don't have a problem with it, but the minute that signs start

> popping up that she is attracting too much attention is when she should

> put

> on more clothes. stalking doesn't count, that is a totally different

> story.

>

> and yes you are correct that the female anatomy is not in question here,

> however if the department knew that there was more tendencies for that

> crew

> more that others(you can't tell me that people don't know) then she

> shouldn't have been paired with those two to begin with(even though she

> shouldn't have been there anyway).

>

> as a matter of fact the person i was speaking of lost his patch as soon as

> he was convicted, but pedophiles should not be allowed to have an

> occupation

> that will put them in contact with children. and just another two cents,

> pedophilia is another " name " created like alcoholism and ADHD, it's just a

> name. it's as hilarious as the theory that gays and lesbians are

> homosexuals

> by birth.

>

> i apologize if anything offends anyone. its just that this topic is about

> another adult that screwed up, and somehow this 15 y/o girl was put in

> that

> situation for whatever reason.

>

January 16, 2005

" but I am reluctant to automatically think of

her as a helpless victim of vicious predators simply because of the

convenient scheme the state currently has in place to determine competence

for consent. "

Why on earth not? 15 years old is not competent....for much of anything. You

are not mature enough emotionally at 15 to adequately judge your actions.

This is exactly why we have ages of consent for things. You cannot judge the

validity of a contract until you are 18, you cannot drink until you are 21,

you cannot be president until you are 35. Society makes laws as to what

level of maturity you have to reach to do certain things. You have the body

and urges of a woman at 15, but not the level of judgement that you need,

period. It is perfectly valid to make statements as to her

maturity....because she is 15 years old, and therefore not mature. The

reason its not illegal for two 15 year-olds to have sex is because neither

of them know any better. She might have gotten in the rig and stripped naked

and said " let's go boys " but she does not have the maturity to understand

her actions. a 29 year-old does, and it was incumbent on him NOT to engage

in sexual acts with her, regardless of whether or not she consented to the

acts, or even initiated them. It doesn't matter. It is illegal to have sex

with a minor....always....every single time.

I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this and what it does to our

profession, but the cops, firefighters and doctors feel the same way when

one of theirs screws up.

magnetass sends

Re: Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

>

> haha, i don't use capital letters unless i am handwriting something or

> writing to someone important. now to the debate,

>

> the forest fire comment is in reference to the level of debates that began

> with the initial email.

>

> i admit that i wrongfully put blame on the girl, yes there were more

> factors

> involved that indirectly puts her in the middle of the conversation. i

> still

> want to know why a 15 y/o was allowed to ride along anyway, no matter day

> or

> night. 17 y/o student on career day i could understand.

>

> as far as the girl wearing spandex, if she wants to wear spandex all day

> long, i don't have a problem with it, but the minute that signs start

> popping up that she is attracting too much attention is when she should

> put

> on more clothes. stalking doesn't count, that is a totally different

> story.

>

> and yes you are correct that the female anatomy is not in question here,

> however if the department knew that there was more tendencies for that

> crew

> more that others(you can't tell me that people don't know) then she

> shouldn't have been paired with those two to begin with(even though she

> shouldn't have been there anyway).

>

> as a matter of fact the person i was speaking of lost his patch as soon as

> he was convicted, but pedophiles should not be allowed to have an

> occupation

> that will put them in contact with children. and just another two cents,

> pedophilia is another " name " created like alcoholism and ADHD, it's just a

> name. it's as hilarious as the theory that gays and lesbians are

> homosexuals

> by birth.

>

> i apologize if anything offends anyone. its just that this topic is about

> another adult that screwed up, and somehow this 15 y/o girl was put in

> that

> situation for whatever reason.

>

January 16, 2005

> Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

>

> I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

believe the latter.

Ken

----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

January 16, 2005

> Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

>

> I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

believe the latter.

Ken

----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

January 16, 2005

> Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

>

> I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

believe the latter.

Ken

----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

January 16, 2005

It is called the Cycle of Abuse. You might try google for more

information, or just call your local Child Protective Services and ask

them about it.

Carol

>

> > Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

> >

> > I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

> your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

> you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

> believe the latter.

> Ken

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------

> >

>

January 16, 2005

It is called the Cycle of Abuse. You might try google for more

information, or just call your local Child Protective Services and ask

them about it.

Carol

>

> > Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

> >

> > I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

> your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

> you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

> believe the latter.

> Ken

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------

> >

>

January 16, 2005

It is called the Cycle of Abuse. You might try google for more

information, or just call your local Child Protective Services and ask

them about it.

Carol

>

> > Sad thing is most sexual predator victims become predators.

> >

> > I'm still waiting for the facts and statistics that would back up

> your statement, or an admission that you don't know what the hell

> you're talking about. Your silence on this matter leads one to

> believe the latter.

> Ken

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----------

> >

>

January 16, 2005

Amen

LP

-- RE: Sad Day for EMS and a 16-year old

Wow...what a lot of conversation overnight. I too am disgusted with this

and truly feel for this girl and her family as well as the family of this

EMT. There are victims all around in this episode...

BUT, although I agree that better hiring processes will help prevent this..

it will not be truly addressed until ALL EMS agencies start paying attention

to the culture and behavior of their crews while on duty. Why is there this

constant pre-occupation with sex and sexual talk in the workplace? I

suppose it is culturally driven from everything around us in society...but

if we allow this type of behavior and culture to predominate in our agencies

we are all asking for similar episodes in our systems.

Legislative and legal authorities have worked hard to place penalties on

work places and people who insist on conducting themselves inappropriately

in the workplace...yet many EMS agencies (many workplaces in general) turn a

blind eye to laws regarding hostile work places and harrassment with the

excuse that " its just friendly banter " or " its just station talk " . Well, in

this instance it started out as " friendly banter " and because the girl was

too young and inexperienced, it was not stopped.

For all EMS managers and supervisors pay attention: This is exactly how it

occurs all the time in workplace law issues. Friendly chit-chat (probably

inappropriate legally) begins by one or both sides and continues until

something stops it. This something is usually a realization by one or both

that it has gone to far (and either it is a mutual stoppage or someone gets

hurt feelidngs and gets upset (at the least) or files a complaint (at the

most))...but rarely is it stopped by supervision and management...rarely is

it prevented and rarely do we discuss these issues with out employees ahead

of time to try and prevent such things from occurring.

I know it is a deep dark secret what goes on in the station or ambulance..

but when did it become appropriate to discuss sexual

relationships/behavior/or choice with our co-workers??? It didn't just

happen overnight...nor was there a day when it probably didn't happen...but

we must work to prevent it and to make sure that everyone connected to our

profession knows it is inappropriate, wrong, and how to deal with it when it

starts...NOT when it has gone to far.

Whew...I feel better now. Thanks.

Dudley

January 16, 2005