Re: REMOVE YOURSELF

January 9, 2001

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > I

> suppose for

> > someone who might enjoy being upset, adding another pet peeve would

> be useful.

>

> Kind of like how upset you are about my post? too bad you didn't use

> your delete key, like you told me to.

>

> judith

Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally motivated? I am

not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you will find me

telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude.

January 9, 2001

> Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally

motivated? I am

> not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you

will find me

> telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude.

I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine,

rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The

human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we

survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a

relatively autonomic level.

Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality,

while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate.

Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic,

science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools.

It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known

people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after

they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset

about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages

posted to the list.

I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me,

and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the

unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I

expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified

and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express

my anger.

judith

January 9, 2001

Ben Bradley wrote:

At 06:54 PM 1/9/01 -0800, s wrote:

> How do we know if any individual has subscribed

themselves to a particular list? While it is likely that most >people

who send such "unsubsribe" messages to email list have managed to subscribe

on their own, some >may have had others do this for them.

No, not unless someone else has their Internet password,

in which case

they have bigger problems than being signed up to this list without

their

consent.

I did not imply this was done without consent, merely

that they had someone else do this for them. It would appear

that some people, including yourself, are simply unwilling to except that

some technically unsophisticated people might make an honest mistake and

assume an "unsubscribe" message to list is the way end a subscription.

By defining ANYONE who sends such a message as alternatively, rude, a blubbering

idiot, or a troll, it becomes acceptable vent our spleens at them.

If we accept the obvious fact that some people, even just a small percentage,

may have made a simple mistake in sending an unsubscribe message to list,

should we not hold off on the vitriolic replies?

> Why do you extrapolate from a minor display

of ignorance that the

>offending posters "turn into blubbering idiots"? How much tolerance

>is required to say, "Oh, another one" and hit the delete key?

This is 12-step-free. Love and tolerance of others is not

necessarily

our code.

That some here do not embrace tolerance is more than

clear. BTW I made no mention of love. And who's code is "our

code"? Is there an inner core of 12-step-free members who make up

the list, while the rest of us are just interlopers?

Off course tolerance need not be part of anyone's

personal code of conduct, we all have to answer to our own standard of

dignity.

January 9, 2001

.. Why do you extrapolate from a minor display of ignorance that the offending posters "turn into blubbering idiots"?

Probably because I dont believe that most of these people DONT sub themselves, how could they not - they have to use their own passwords and all. I was just recently on a list where the same person - after being told politely how to unsub herself continued to send FIFTY replies to each and every post with the words simply UNSUBSCRIBE ME. She qwas told repeatedly how to do it herself yet still chose to ignore those instriuctions and she kept sending these annoying messages to the group asking someone to do it for her. I guess I do have alist of pet peeves, sorry if you are so much above all of us that you dont have any, but I am human and this happens to be one of mine. Why dont you take over as moderator so you ccn personally deal with all of these requests to unsub people yourself?

Sue A

January 9, 2001

Kind of like how upset you are about my post? Too bad you didn't use your delete key, like you told me to.

Once again, well said, Judith !

Sue A

January 9, 2001

Well, I'm plenty nice to people who aren't rude to me, thank you very much.

If someone doesn't like the way this group is run on how we unsub people suggest that they take over the job of doing it for people. That oughta shut them up

Sue A

January 10, 2001

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally

> motivated? I am

> > not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you

> will find me

> > telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude.

>

> I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine,

> rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The

> human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we

> survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a

> relatively autonomic level.

>

> Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality,

> while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate.

> Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic,

> science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools.

While you may experience motivation in this way, I do not. I find much of

my behavior motivated by reason and logic. I have actually spent allot of time

and energy moving away from primarily basing my decisions and actions on

emotional reactions to the world around me.

> It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known

> people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after

> they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset

> about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages

> posted to the list.

Honestly, you have done nothing to me for which I would be angry. Sorry to

disappoint you, but my objections to your post were of the reasoned verity.

> I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me,

> and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the

> unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I

> expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified

> and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express

> my anger.

Is everyone who differs with you baiting you? I ask this because I do not

believe I have done anything but politely disagree with you. I have not made

any personal attacks or made any attempts to demean you. What have I done that

you consider " baiting " ?

BTW, if the " unsubscribe crew " is baiting the list why bite? Wouldn't it be

better not to bite, thus defeating the anti 12 step free folks who are baiting

the list? It just does not seem very plausible that anyone, much less a crew,

would chose to harass this list or any other by posting unsubscribe messages.

.

January 10, 2001

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally

> motivated? I am

> > not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you

> will find me

> > telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude.

>

> I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine,

> rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The

> human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we

> survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a

> relatively autonomic level.

>

> Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality,

> while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate.

> Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic,

> science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools.

While you may experience motivation in this way, I do not. I find much of

my behavior motivated by reason and logic. I have actually spent allot of time

and energy moving away from primarily basing my decisions and actions on

emotional reactions to the world around me.

> It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known

> people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after

> they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset

> about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages

> posted to the list.

Honestly, you have done nothing to me for which I would be angry. Sorry to

disappoint you, but my objections to your post were of the reasoned verity.

> I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me,

> and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the

> unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I

> expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified

> and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express

> my anger.

Is everyone who differs with you baiting you? I ask this because I do not

believe I have done anything but politely disagree with you. I have not made

any personal attacks or made any attempts to demean you. What have I done that

you consider " baiting " ?

BTW, if the " unsubscribe crew " is baiting the list why bite? Wouldn't it be

better not to bite, thus defeating the anti 12 step free folks who are baiting

the list? It just does not seem very plausible that anyone, much less a crew,

would chose to harass this list or any other by posting unsubscribe messages.

.

January 10, 2001

: I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the

most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under

obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you.

judith

January 10, 2001

: I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the

most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under

obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you.

judith

January 10, 2001

: I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the

most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under

obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you.

judith

January 10, 2001

> What all these people have in common is that you never hear from

>them until they post that they want to unsubscribe. I'm guessing

>they know perfectly well how to do it but want to make some type of

>statement.

Yep Nate. Or they just cant be boethered to find out. I reckon its

like a " fuck you " to the list, but not wanting to go that far, they

passively aggressively get a buzz by getting some help response to get

out. You sometimes see plain " unsubscribe me " messages for ppl who

their thing is to make the listowner do the work. I had someone do

that on one of my lists once, and I almost refused as it was her

responsibility, but I reckoned it was simpler just to unsub her.

We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of

unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem

to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe

theyve all started becoming well-behaved. I cant help wondering if

theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that

the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the

hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? I

dont recall seeing many " Listowner please get me off this list.... I

dont seem able to do it " which one often sees on other lists.

Ken - egroups is no longer giving the membership size - know any

reason why this should be? It affects all the egroups I am on, fom

too.

P.

January 10, 2001