Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > I > suppose for > > someone who might enjoy being upset, adding another pet peeve would > be useful. > > Kind of like how upset you are about my post? too bad you didn't use > your delete key, like you told me to. > > judith Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally motivated? I am not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you will find me telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 > Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally motivated? I am > not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you will find me > telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude. I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine, rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a relatively autonomic level. Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality, while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate. Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic, science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools. It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages posted to the list. I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me, and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express my anger. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Ben Bradley wrote: At 06:54 PM 1/9/01 -0800, s wrote: > How do we know if any individual has subscribed themselves to a particular list? While it is likely that most >people who send such "unsubsribe" messages to email list have managed to subscribe on their own, some >may have had others do this for them. No, not unless someone else has their Internet password, in which case they have bigger problems than being signed up to this list without their consent. I did not imply this was done without consent, merely that they had someone else do this for them. It would appear that some people, including yourself, are simply unwilling to except that some technically unsophisticated people might make an honest mistake and assume an "unsubscribe" message to list is the way end a subscription. By defining ANYONE who sends such a message as alternatively, rude, a blubbering idiot, or a troll, it becomes acceptable vent our spleens at them. If we accept the obvious fact that some people, even just a small percentage, may have made a simple mistake in sending an unsubscribe message to list, should we not hold off on the vitriolic replies? > Why do you extrapolate from a minor display of ignorance that the >offending posters "turn into blubbering idiots"? How much tolerance >is required to say, "Oh, another one" and hit the delete key? This is 12-step-free. Love and tolerance of others is not necessarily our code. That some here do not embrace tolerance is more than clear. BTW I made no mention of love. And who's code is "our code"? Is there an inner core of 12-step-free members who make up the list, while the rest of us are just interlopers? Off course tolerance need not be part of anyone's personal code of conduct, we all have to answer to our own standard of dignity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 .. Why do you extrapolate from a minor display of ignorance that the offending posters "turn into blubbering idiots"? Probably because I dont believe that most of these people DONT sub themselves, how could they not - they have to use their own passwords and all. I was just recently on a list where the same person - after being told politely how to unsub herself continued to send FIFTY replies to each and every post with the words simply UNSUBSCRIBE ME. She qwas told repeatedly how to do it herself yet still chose to ignore those instriuctions and she kept sending these annoying messages to the group asking someone to do it for her. I guess I do have alist of pet peeves, sorry if you are so much above all of us that you dont have any, but I am human and this happens to be one of mine. Why dont you take over as moderator so you ccn personally deal with all of these requests to unsub people yourself? Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Kind of like how upset you are about my post? Too bad you didn't use your delete key, like you told me to. Once again, well said, Judith ! Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Well, I'm plenty nice to people who aren't rude to me, thank you very much. If someone doesn't like the way this group is run on how we unsub people suggest that they take over the job of doing it for people. That oughta shut them up Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally > motivated? I am > > not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you > will find me > > telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude. > > I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine, > rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The > human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we > survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a > relatively autonomic level. > > Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality, > while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate. > Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic, > science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools. While you may experience motivation in this way, I do not. I find much of my behavior motivated by reason and logic. I have actually spent allot of time and energy moving away from primarily basing my decisions and actions on emotional reactions to the world around me. > It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known > people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after > they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset > about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages > posted to the list. Honestly, you have done nothing to me for which I would be angry. Sorry to disappoint you, but my objections to your post were of the reasoned verity. > I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me, > and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the > unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I > expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified > and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express > my anger. Is everyone who differs with you baiting you? I ask this because I do not believe I have done anything but politely disagree with you. I have not made any personal attacks or made any attempts to demean you. What have I done that you consider " baiting " ? BTW, if the " unsubscribe crew " is baiting the list why bite? Wouldn't it be better not to bite, thus defeating the anti 12 step free folks who are baiting the list? It just does not seem very plausible that anyone, much less a crew, would chose to harass this list or any other by posting unsubscribe messages. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > > > Why do you assume my criticism of your post is emotionally > motivated? I am > > not upset by your posts. If you reread my post I don't believe you > will find me > > telling you to do anything. That indeed would be rude. > > I assume because I have a human mind, a pattern-recognition machine, > rather than a silicon chip, a calculating machine, in my mind. The > human mind seeks patterns and makes generalizations. That is how we > survive in a complex world: most of our actions take place on a > relatively autonomic level. > > Your post sounded angry. You still sound angry. Logic and rationality, > while they may be valuable intellectual tools, do not really motivate. > Rather, it is the emotions inspired--for example, the love of logic, > science, etc.--that motivate people to utilize these tools. While you may experience motivation in this way, I do not. I find much of my behavior motivated by reason and logic. I have actually spent allot of time and energy moving away from primarily basing my decisions and actions on emotional reactions to the world around me. > It doesn't much matter to me if you say you're not angry. I've known > people to scream " I'm not angry " at the top of their lungs, after > they've stomped around and accused me of, oh, say, getting too upset > about something trivial like, oh, say, several unsubscribe messages > posted to the list. Honestly, you have done nothing to me for which I would be angry. Sorry to disappoint you, but my objections to your post were of the reasoned verity. > I am angry. Right now I'm angry because I believe you're baiting me, > and I'm expressing my anger. Earlier I was angry because I believe the > unsubscribe crew are baiting us, 12 step free, as a group, and I > expressed my anger then. Then, as now, I feel my anger is justified > and I am glad that I have the ability and the opportunity to express > my anger. Is everyone who differs with you baiting you? I ask this because I do not believe I have done anything but politely disagree with you. I have not made any personal attacks or made any attempts to demean you. What have I done that you consider " baiting " ? BTW, if the " unsubscribe crew " is baiting the list why bite? Wouldn't it be better not to bite, thus defeating the anti 12 step free folks who are baiting the list? It just does not seem very plausible that anyone, much less a crew, would chose to harass this list or any other by posting unsubscribe messages. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 : I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 : I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 : I snipped your message because at this point, I believe the most productive thing I can do is remind myself that I am not under obligation to debate the validity of my perceptions with you. judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 > What all these people have in common is that you never hear from >them until they post that they want to unsubscribe. I'm guessing >they know perfectly well how to do it but want to make some type of >statement. Yep Nate. Or they just cant be boethered to find out. I reckon its like a " fuck you " to the list, but not wanting to go that far, they passively aggressively get a buzz by getting some help response to get out. You sometimes see plain " unsubscribe me " messages for ppl who their thing is to make the listowner do the work. I had someone do that on one of my lists once, and I almost refused as it was her responsibility, but I reckoned it was simpler just to unsub her. We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe theyve all started becoming well-behaved. I cant help wondering if theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? I dont recall seeing many " Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it " which one often sees on other lists. Ken - egroups is no longer giving the membership size - know any reason why this should be? It affects all the egroups I am on, fom too. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 > What all these people have in common is that you never hear from >them until they post that they want to unsubscribe. I'm guessing >they know perfectly well how to do it but want to make some type of >statement. Yep Nate. Or they just cant be boethered to find out. I reckon its like a " fuck you " to the list, but not wanting to go that far, they passively aggressively get a buzz by getting some help response to get out. You sometimes see plain " unsubscribe me " messages for ppl who their thing is to make the listowner do the work. I had someone do that on one of my lists once, and I almost refused as it was her responsibility, but I reckoned it was simpler just to unsub her. We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe theyve all started becoming well-behaved. I cant help wondering if theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? I dont recall seeing many " Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it " which one often sees on other lists. Ken - egroups is no longer giving the membership size - know any reason why this should be? It affects all the egroups I am on, fom too. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 > What all these people have in common is that you never hear from >them until they post that they want to unsubscribe. I'm guessing >they know perfectly well how to do it but want to make some type of >statement. Yep Nate. Or they just cant be boethered to find out. I reckon its like a " fuck you " to the list, but not wanting to go that far, they passively aggressively get a buzz by getting some help response to get out. You sometimes see plain " unsubscribe me " messages for ppl who their thing is to make the listowner do the work. I had someone do that on one of my lists once, and I almost refused as it was her responsibility, but I reckoned it was simpler just to unsub her. We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe theyve all started becoming well-behaved. I cant help wondering if theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? I dont recall seeing many " Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it " which one often sees on other lists. Ken - egroups is no longer giving the membership size - know any reason why this should be? It affects all the egroups I am on, fom too. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 > Then one person posts and a whole rash of people take up the > " please unsubscribe me " thing. It's the kind of indirect, passive > aggressive behavior that drives me crazy because then the offender >can plead ignorance, innocence, and tell me how horrible I am for not > being nice. Well, I'm plenty nice to people who aren't rude to me, > thank you very much. I notice one woman said " unsubscribe doesnt work for me " or something similar. Thats an odd construction to use for someone who has tried it, who would normally say " the unsubscribe option doesnt work " since there is no reason to think they are being singled out by the listserv. I also note " That wouldnt work for me " is an unofficial AA putdown we have discussed here a few years ago, and I cant help wondering if that wasnt a kind of unconscious reference, the mentality around both being actually " I dont want to hear about that. " . P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 watts_pete@... wrote: > > Ken - egroups is no longer giving the membership size - know any > reason why this should be? It affects all the egroups I am on, fom > too. > > P. Pete, I can see the number of members on the Members page, up top. Is this where you mean? Ken P.S. 12-Step free is at 323 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 ? I dont recall seeing many "Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it" which one often sees on other lists. Even if someone has forgotten their password it is easy to get it emailed to you and even then all you have to do is visit the page of the group and it tells you that all you have to do is send a letter to groupname-unsubscribeegroups Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 ? I dont recall seeing many "Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it" which one often sees on other lists. Even if someone has forgotten their password it is easy to get it emailed to you and even then all you have to do is visit the page of the group and it tells you that all you have to do is send a letter to groupname-unsubscribeegroups Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 ? I dont recall seeing many "Listowner please get me off this list.... I dont seem able to do it" which one often sees on other lists. Even if someone has forgotten their password it is easy to get it emailed to you and even then all you have to do is visit the page of the group and it tells you that all you have to do is send a letter to groupname-unsubscribeegroups Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 At 07:38 PM 1/10/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote: >We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of >unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem >to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe >theyve all started becoming well-behaved. What I've seen, while not explicitly pro-AA, is not what I consider " well-behaved " behavior. >I cant help wondering if >theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that >the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the >hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? That may be giving them too much credit for thinking. We're just being trolled again, that's all. ;-( ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 At 07:38 PM 1/10/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote: >We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of >unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem >to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe >theyve all started becoming well-behaved. What I've seen, while not explicitly pro-AA, is not what I consider " well-behaved " behavior. >I cant help wondering if >theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that >the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the >hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? That may be giving them too much credit for thinking. We're just being trolled again, that's all. ;-( ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 At 07:38 PM 1/10/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote: >We seem to have had a lot of new faces recently and them a lot of >unsubscribe posts. Call me paranoid maybe, but I notice we dont seem >to get overt AA hostility/apologism anymore here. I cant believe >theyve all started becoming well-behaved. What I've seen, while not explicitly pro-AA, is not what I consider " well-behaved " behavior. >I cant help wondering if >theyve adopted a " please tell me how to unsubscribe " tactic so that >the instructions keep being posted on the list all the time in the >hope that stepper newbies here will decide not to stick around? That may be giving them too much credit for thinking. We're just being trolled again, that's all. ;-( ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 In a message dated 1/9/01 4:29:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, j_stillwater@... writes: << REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE LIST. IF YOU HAVE SENT THE APPROPRIATE UNSUBSCRIBE EMAIL MESSAGE AND STILL RECEIVE MESSAGES AFTER 12-24 HOURS, THEN YOU HAVE A REASONABLE EXCUSE FOR POSTING TO THE LIST. Any freakin questions????? judith >> LOL. Sorry to take up a whole post for this but I couldn't help myself? lololololol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 In a message dated 1/9/01 4:29:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, j_stillwater@... writes: << REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE LIST. IF YOU HAVE SENT THE APPROPRIATE UNSUBSCRIBE EMAIL MESSAGE AND STILL RECEIVE MESSAGES AFTER 12-24 HOURS, THEN YOU HAVE A REASONABLE EXCUSE FOR POSTING TO THE LIST. Any freakin questions????? judith >> LOL. Sorry to take up a whole post for this but I couldn't help myself? lololololol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 In a message dated 1/9/01 6:23:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, Stigmata@... writes: << Yes, I have a few questions (although I expect the above was a rhetorical question for Cordap). Why are you so angry? If this kind of post annoys you so much why not simply use your delete key to better advantage? Why do you find someone's lack of skills to be socially incorrect? Peace, >> , I agree with your tolerant approach here, although I too find this extremely annoying. It is only human to tear your hair at some point when you see repeated posts like this. Perhaps a better solution, for those not used to the innies and outies of lists, is to make it more explicit somehow or run a post every once in awhile on how to unsubscribe. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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