Re: the middle ground??

July 5, 1999

Hi Apple;

AA also forces codependent behavior on men if you look at The

Programmed Group as the dominator. I must subvert my will to

The Program's God, do as the program does for the benefit of, not

me, but rather the group, then I must help expand the group and

help it grow to subvert other folks for the benefit of the group. If

after doing these by rote from the book, things go wrong, I must

take the blame. However, if all goes well, credit goes to the

program.

The programmed Group is in a win/win situation, but I am in a no

win situation, I can never be right, only wrong.

I think that's almost codependency defined. I must always look out

for the group, our stories show, the group looks out for no one but

itself. I'm speaking of post 1967, prior to that there was help for

individuals in some groups as my own 1966 story shows.

Oh usually personality cults like Clancy's group has been

described die out after the personality dies, even his assistant

Guru's usually aren't as radical after he dies. The " Little People "

hang on mostly for a touch of the masters robe and when the

master dies, they are lost and wander away.

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July 5, 1999

Hi All;

Alas, I use windows 3.11, no real player written for my operating

system.

Sigh, I don't get to hear Clancy, that disturbs me. Of course,

there's a win95 computer 5 feet from me with Real Player, but I'd

have to learn to operate it. It's Rose's computer. I was hogging the

internet and so was Rose, so we got a new computer a while back.

You Girls always get the best stuff, sigh.

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July 5, 1999

I have heard about the Clancy nonsense. I though the only requirement was a

desire not to drink? Dresscodes? I know about gorup autonamy, but I thought

that running a cult within AA might affect the fellowship as a whole. I

guess not.

souns more like AMWAY to me more than anything thereputic. I wonder if

athesits or gays would be welcome to Clancy's moral army.

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July 5, 1999

Hey ;

Glad you posted. Gives me a chance to apologize to you

personally for " My old uncles saying " . It was thoughtless of me to

post it and no offense was meant. Sometimes the things I say in

jest can be offensive and I sort of try to edit myself, but this time I

screwed up.

As to gays or anyone different, I doubt they'd be welcome and

being gay is probably treated as sin. As someone(I think or

Apple said, Different=Bad, Conformity=Good. Now I'd be the last

to say that Conformity is always bad or that Different is always

good. There is in my reality a proportion to these things. As to

being a good citizen of my community I pretty much conform. I

conform to the law, I vote everytime I get the chance because not

voting I automatically become someone else's servant and give up

the right to bitch. I cannot imagine myself giving up the right to

GRIPE! I try to keep the house I live in looking decent on the

outside etc. I believe these conformities to be as much a part of

my recovery as my ability to think differently and run our business

differently.

Unlike Clancy, I believe " If it feels good, DO IT! " I think everybody

here knows that doesn't include illegal things or indulging in

substance abuse. Neither of those things has a lasting feel good.

But if I happen to be dressed " White Tie " and decide to fly kites

with some kids, well where's the harm?, except maybe a dry

cleaning bill and that don't hurt much. I feel not being afraid to look

silly, is part of having fun.

Reverend King said he dreamed of when his children would be

judged by the content of their character, rather than the color of

their skin. Clancy has the emphasis on skin color,ie outside

appearances. This is destructive to the spirit of a person. What if

after three or so years sober I cannot afford a good suit, perhaps

still paying off old bills and raising a family concurrently. That

would prohibit me from speaking and getting the kudo's the folks

with cash get. Doesn't sound good, doesn't even sound like old

time AA and I was there in the latter part of 59, what was

considered to be the " Good Old Days " Guys from The Then Clive

Prison Farm came in prison clothes sometimes, many became

regular members upon release. Old Time AA was not The Clancy

Model you folks have been talking about.

Sounds like he is The Reverend Moon, who happens to be in AA.

Or you could say " The Abusive Father of AA " IMO. I never put the

" H " in because I really don't want to be known as humble.

I have had really good folks humble me, just because they were so

good that I failed a comparison, however, humility is in the eye of

the beholder, sort of like beauty.

I would be loathe to say I am not humble, I'd just rather not have it

said about me because, to me it brings a false stereotyped image

to mind.

To me humility in a person simply means having a realistic

knowlege of my strength's, weaknesses and where I fit in the

scheme of things. If I said I was an average technician, it would be

as much a lie as if I said I was the best in the USA. I am an

excellent technician, but I've met a few that are my superior, also

many that are my inferior.

About my technical ability I can use empirical evidence. Many

things I can find no empirical evidence either way, so I trust my

own opinion, until some strong evidence forces me to change my

opinion. I believe this is called free thinking.

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July 5, 1999

Hey ;

Scary is RIGHT. My AA friend in Hawaii escaped California due to

the Purist AA Movement and he was a demanded speaker all over

the west coast. He says if he moves back to the mainland it won't

be California. He has more degrees that I've had affairs and he's a

Jew to boot. A VERY interesting man and I value his opinion on

most anything, though I may disagree with it. He calls himself an

AA apologist, because of what has happened to folks like me in

AA and he acknowleges that my problems were exacerbated by

AA without reservation. He also says though if he'd been my

sponsor he would have advised a shrink because he has similar

problems and saw a shrink. He and I are at odds on many things,

but allow each other the differences. For any AA's who happen to

be lurking and cannot understand that, it's called " Friendship and

intellectual integrity " Two concepts generally foriegn to AA.

, don't you think the lack of Clancy's annual blessing will put a

crimp in the desciples act, with no presence of an Authority

Figure? Or might they get even more zealous and further to the AA

right?

Might they splinter, without the combining force of Clancy's

personality? That would be my guess, every group leader

competing for the Master's throne and dividing the groups in the

fight. The democratic process does not work well in AA and I say

that from being a GSR and listening to the petty doctrinal divisive

bullshit. How much worse would it be in the Theocracy of a Clancy

type personality cult? I would think the sicker the group the worse

it would get. Everyone claiming to have the ear of God.

Take a look at the problems surrounding and as a result of the

death of a Pope, and there they have a ritual for succession firmly

in place. Does Clancy have one in place. I'd say no because he

deep down believes he's immortal. Most religous cult leaders have

that problem.

It's a pretty sure thing you'll see it, I may not.

I wrote a short humor piece about being arrested for AA crimes for

another list, it didn't go over well, at least not one soul commented.

The list was called Recovering Rationally, but either no one had a

sense of humor or I just flopped, don't know which. I've since

formatted this hard drive, but it's probably archived, I'll try to look it

up and test the waters here.

Rose liked it, but she's maybe biased.

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July 5, 1999

" It's sin and pennance when you

get down to the nitty gritty, ala St Augustine who ate his own feces

for punishment for addiction. And they made him a saint for doing

it.

What a crock of....... for St Augustine anyway.

"

LOL . I'll bet this is St Augustine of HIppo, who is the patron saint of

Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. Of course, they dont *call* him the patron

saint of course, but thats what he clearly is; their alternative name is the

Augustine Fellowship. Of course, they use the " outside matters " Tradition to

argue that it doesnt matter that this guy was a Saint, whereas in reality of

course, they ought to avoid adopting him for that reason.

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html

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July 5, 1999

Ben wrote:

'I have a couple of

second editions, which are no big deal, but are fun to haul out

(theoretically speaking, since I no longer go to meetings) when someone

starts to quote the 'acceptance' paragraph on page 449 of the Third Edition.'

I have a particular interest in this passage. could you explain what you

mean here? Are you referring to the fact that it wasnt in the original book,

and hence cant be considered main AA program?

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html

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July 5, 1999

Hi ;

I did a search at Egroups.com and came up with it. I posted this in

Nov. of 98. Hope you like it better than the RR Group did

Hi all; I guess

most of you know I had a heart operation a few years back. Well

my doctor he has some silly

notion that these 2 to 2and 1/2 packs a cigarettes I smoke

everyday are gonna' hurt me somehow. Truth

be told I've been kinda' wanting to quit anyway. When I had the

surgeon the chief of surgery said I

was the only guy he ever allowed to smoke on the cardiac ward in

recovery (I bitch A LOT, when

denied my nicotine.) Anyway he said I could have 4 cigarettes a

day. Well that ain't enough for

morning coffee, let a lone all day. So just to spite him I didn't

smoke any for the rest of the time I

was there(about 5 more days). Now one might ask why I didn't

just quit then. I have asked myself that

more than a few times. Anyway yesterday I joined Nicotines

Anonymous and got me a sponsor

today. Ya' see the idea is if I get the urge to smoke, I just call my

sponsor, he brings a jug of

whiskey and we get drunk until the urge to smoke passes. Rose

didn't take to the idea too well and

I don't have a bed in my shop so being a joiner I had to find

something to take the place of

NA. Well, I joined Alcoholic's Unanimous. They keep the club

door locked and to get in you have

to stand by the door and shout the club's initials " A U! " and

somebody lets you in. Well I got a sore

throat and thrown in jail, before I figured out I was the first one

there. Anyway I got to jail after

the obligatory caress with the batons and the booking clerk asked

my name and I told him. He

asked me how to spell it so I spelled it for him. He said I was

wrong. I asked, " do you belong

to AA? " He asked " How did you know? " I said " Lucky Guess. "

So he booked me for Dry drunkeness

and disorderly denial and I asked " how much is bail? " He said

" No bail, them's serious charges. " I asked,

" Could I call my wife? " " Man you want me to add catastrophic

codependency to these charges? " , he replied

" Let me do you a favor man, you gonna' be here anyway, so read

this tonight. " He handed me a

Big Book and I said " I think I'll wait for the movie " .

Error

(A) Abort ® Retry (F) Fail (I) Influence with hammer

If you've never used MS Dos exclusively for your operating sytem

you don't know how true the above line is.

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July 5, 1999

I did not take offense at what your " old uncle " said.... In fact, I don't

remember what he said! :.)

As for Clancy's group, I don't know...but I guess that they probably would

accept gays and atheists (or anyone else) who would play by their rules. In

one of my " home groups " , the rule was that one should never say that he or

she is gay and change their story if necessary to obey this rule. While I do

not have a completely p.c. sense of humor, and can take an occasional gay

joke, keeping my entire life a secret seemed to be contrary to AA philosophy.

In general, the gag rule also applied toward individuals, not just at the

group level. I guess that I never felt the " great relief " of sharing my

story honestly that many members claimed to feel. Now, I don't know how

important this kind of " sharing " is anyway. What do you think?

Thanks for being thoughtful, though, . I really enjoy your contributions

to this board.

-

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July 5, 1999

Hi ! I guess the little story explains why Trimpy shut down all the RR

groups. :.)

-

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July 5, 1999

, I only wish it were true that Clancy's legacy would die with him,

but I fear that it won't. Thousands have been indoctrinated in his

spirit crushing form of sponsorship, and will continue to be passed

along down the line as it was passed to me by my first sponsor. These

sponsors are glibly referred to as " Step Nazis " here in Southern

California which is clearly the spiritual center of Alcoholics Anonymous

at the present time. I live right in the middle of the hive, and Clancy

is the Queen Bee. There are speaker meetings(200+ people) all over the

area that are modeled after the Pacific Group and strictly tow the party line.

Clancy will usually come once a year to share his wisdom and give his

blessing, but his living presence is no more needed to perpetuate his

creed than the resurrection of Christ is to jump-start Christianity. His

mindset is so well ensconced in these satellite meetings which are

equipped with a contingent of ruling elders. If one dies out there are a

handful ready to take their place. AA is not showing any signs of

atrophy here in Southern California as compared with your area .

Let's face it, Jesus had only the 12 and Clancy's got hundreds wielding

his own purulent version of the 12 Steps.

Scary.

pachy2@... wrote:

>

> Hi Apple;

>

> AA also forces codependent behavior on men if you look at The

> Programmed Group as the dominator. I must subvert my will to

> The Program's God, do as the program does for the benefit of, not

> me, but rather the group, then I must help expand the group and

> help it grow to subvert other folks for the benefit of the group. If

> after doing these by rote from the book, things go wrong, I must

> take the blame. However, if all goes well, credit goes to the

> program.

>

> The programmed Group is in a win/win situation, but I am in a no

> win situation, I can never be right, only wrong.

>

> I think that's almost codependency defined. I must always look out

> for the group, our stories show, the group looks out for no one but

> itself. I'm speaking of post 1967, prior to that there was help for

> individuals in some groups as my own 1966 story shows.

>

> Oh usually personality cults like Clancy's group has been

> described die out after the personality dies, even his assistant

> Guru's usually aren't as radical after he dies. The " Little People "

> hang on mostly for a touch of the masters robe and when the

> master dies, they are lost and wander away.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and discover more ways to save!

> http://clickhere./click/381

>

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July 5, 1999

, I found AA Hawaiian style is very very much like So. Cal. Is your

friend on Oahu? Kathy

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July 5, 1999

Hi Kathy;

Yes I believe he is, though he spends most of his time on The Big

Island. Seems he lives in Honolulu. I believe that's on Oahu, but

have never been to California, except needles on the way home

from Laughlin, Nevada some years ago, let alone the islands. I've

been in both Canada and Mexico, but to neither coast of The USA.

Always thought I'd like to see Boston, but never managed it and

probably won't.

I've talked with several visitors from California at various Iowa and

Arizona, AA groups and none mentioned the conservatism of

California. Maybe they were just polite. I seldom saw suits in AA

except for business folks at a lunch or breakfast meeting and that

was because they didn't want to have to change clothes. However,

there was a big feud before my time between Clancy(Judge Ray

on) on one side and Shack , Don Nail and two

others that resulted in a split in AA in Des Moines. A cult like

private meeting called " The West Des Moines Group " was formed

by Clancy. It has a membership comittee and if you aren't

approved you don't get in. The way they manage this is by

changing the meeting place each week. You call them and if

you're not approved you get, " Im busy, call you back in a minute "

and you never learn the location of the meeting. Constant calling

just gets you hung up on. Maybe they make human sacrafices for

all I know, never been there. The other guys bought a big old

home, built a meeting room on it. The address is 1400 Penn

avenue, so they called it The White House. Far as I know, both

groups still exist. The West Des Moines meets in folks homes, so

probably is fairly small. The white house has around ten thousand

members I'd guess, in 18 or so groups. Most of my knowlege of

Des Moines is nearly 20 years old, except the other day I came by

a meetings list and there were only 20 or 21 groups left in Des

Moines, mostly at the White House. It was about 4 years old and

listed some groups I knew were defunct because the places no

longer exist. Most of the treatment centers are gone, one might be

left. Every hospital had one several years ago. 12step treatment

is no longer profitable in Iowa because of the policy change in the

insurance industry. You have to have good insurance to get in a

treatment facility unless court ordered, then The Court system

pays, but they just don't do it much due to the cost. You can get

the option of treatment only in most cases if your insurance will

pay for it. No insurance? Go to Jail, do not pass go, etc.

Someone without insurance probably also is without the money for

a lawyer who will challenge the system, besides which you've done

the time before you can get to court.

I've always liked the cartoon of a Lawyer and Client in a jail. The

Lawyer asks " How much Due Process can you pay for? " All of

which is far off the point.

I've known him for three years, but never met F2F. He does still go

to meetings now and then though and has never mentioned that the

ultra Conservatives were there also. Matter of fact he invited me

out there. Maybe he wants to convert me? 8-) Only kidding. I've

had my conversion, no more in this lifetime please.

He did tell me in California they even advertise " Pure Meeting " I

don't think Pure was the word, but a synonym, can't recall, but it

meant single addiction only. Guess they just make others

unwelcome.

Any group like that has a dangerous potential just like The Arayan

Nation, The Order et al, they're of a piece. They believe other

people are " Less Than " something and that by itself has the

potential for deciding the " Less Than's " don't have the right to exist.

Trust me, it's not a giant leap in thinking. I hope this Clancy is

quite old! The Duke's and Barry Goldwater's of the world, like

the Clancy's, scare the devil out of me.

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July 5, 1999

wrote:

> Hi Kathy,

>

> I didn't know Clancy had a daughter, but the big meeting is held in a

> huge Synagogue.

>

------------------------------------

It's really ironic that a huge 12-step meeting would be regularly

held in a synagogue, since 12-step philosophy is about as antithetical

to the philosophy and traditions of Judaism as you can get.

" Humility " , confession, and " getting saved " (having defects and

shortcomings removed) by a deity are not Jewish concepts. Neither is

the idea that individuality and " self-will " are the root of all evil,

or will lead people away from God and/or into " insanity " .

Scooping up dogshit to prove your " humility " gets you in

" conscious contact with God " ? Weird to the extreme. That people would

do such things on some AA guru's orders is frightening. Sounds like

this Clancy person might fit the profile of Narcissistic Personality

Disorder.

~Rita

> BALIHAI333@... wrote:

> >

> > Was Clancy the guy at University Synagogue in Brentwood??? (LA) I

met his

> > daughter, or supposed daughter, and she is writing a book that I'm

sure must

> > be related to her relationship with him. She went on and on when I

met her

> > but I was unsure how to react. She is here locally. How

interesting. Kathy

>

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July 5, 1999

Wot?

You werent allowed to say youre gay?

hows that for " absolute honesty " !

I remember its still in the the T & T abt how AA doesnt

exclude " queers and fallen women " . It's funny how in the

pasage of time the word queer has been reclaimed by gay ppl.

Pete

> I did not take offense at what your " old uncle " said.... In fact, I don't

> remember what he said! :.)

>

> As for Clancy's group, I don't know...but I guess that they probably would

> accept gays and atheists (or anyone else) who would play by their rules. In

> one of my " home groups " , the rule was that one should never say that he or

> she is gay and change their story if necessary to obey this rule. While I do

> not have a completely p.c. sense of humor, and can take an occasional gay

> joke, keeping my entire life a secret seemed to be contrary to AA philosophy.

> In general, the gag rule also applied toward individuals, not just at the

> group level. I guess that I never felt the " great relief " of sharing my

> story honestly that many members claimed to feel. Now, I don't know how

> important this kind of " sharing " is anyway. What do you think?

>

> Thanks for being thoughtful, though, . I really enjoy your contributions

> to this board.

>

> -

Pete Watts

Owner

PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

PD Personality Disorders Discussion

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July 6, 1999

What a bunch of junk they fed us! How could I learn how to live and be any

kind of a parent without DOING IT and making some mistakes like I did? Out

of the four children I have -only ONE has experienced a serious problem.

She was also sexually abused at an early age.

I am so sorry to hear that that opportunity was taken away from BOTH you and

your daughter. When I began questioning people in AA about THEIR parental

and childhood experiences, I realized none of them had had healthy

relationships-so how could they possibly tell me what to do?

AA does so much damage. I wish you well.