Re: the middle ground??

July 1, 1999

At 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi Everyone:)

>

>I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme.

>Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me.

>

>I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I

>also like some of what AA has taught me.

>

>So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step

>free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find

>beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA.

>

>A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My

>boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night.

>

>He said:

>>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is

>>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure,

>>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA,

>>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic

>>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and

>>balances.

>

>Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we

>can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other,

>so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It

>reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the

>two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle.

>No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either

>side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were

>so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No

>one was looking in the middle.

>

>I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I

>don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of

>fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list.

>

>Thanks,

>

Well I can gie you my own perspective. I think that seeking the middle

ground is a healthy impulse. And if you are seeking the middle ground

between two apparently equally valid sets of ideas then it makes sense. For

me, the AA position has no real validity. AA is based on a set of ideas

that are not true;

# Alcoholism is a disease (not true, science never validated that disease)

# You can't stop drinking without God's help (not true, modern methods work)

# AA is effective (not true, AA's own figures show it retains 5% over 1 year)

# If you don't get God in your life you will continue to drink (not true,

that is superstitious rubbish)

# If you don't like the steps you are sick (not true, if you don't like the

steps you are excercising critical thinking, a vital tool for independent

healthy living)

And so on. I could go on but there is no need. AA is based on many untruths

and I do not need to be in a middle ground position regarding that- I have

studied the program for many years and I am satisfied that it is a crock

and I can safely regard it as such. Having some other accepting/enabling

relationship to such a bundle of untruths would not be healthy for me.

As for this group existing symbiotically with AA, not quite. There exists a

movement to make modern and effective recovery methods available. That

would continue if AA disappeared. There exists a movement to help people

break free from the programming and harmful effects of mind control cults.

That would continue if AA disappeared. There is more to this than just a

reaction to AA- that is just the chief focus, and will probably remain so

until the grave injustices and abuses perpetrated by the present situation

are significantly changed for the better.

AA is simply an overblown supertitious-religious organisation that has

outgrown (massively) its real usefullness, which is very limited. It has

become a cash cow for unscrupulous treatment providers, which is what is

largely supporting its continued existence. Its tenets are not supported by

science. No need to treat is as if it was some sacred cowm, or as if some

of it must be true just because lots of people beleive it. Lots of people

once believed the earth was flat, and we don't need to take any " middle

ground " position with that- we know it just isn't true. The Church

violently protected those beliefs but they were just not true. Progress

takes place when outdated superstitous beliefs that work against humanity

are confronted as such.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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July 1, 1999

,

When I started going to AA in 1982-I needed help. By the time I was sober

about a year, my stepdad was asking me when I was going to broaden my horizons.

He was trying to encourage me to be a free thinker and not " hang with the pack " .

This advice was coming from a man who was a college professor and I had a lot of

respect for him. I still do. He just turned 85 and has had several strokes and

is not the man he was. I miss the talks we used to have. He'd be really proud

of me if he could comprehend how far I have come. He prefers Jerry Springer

instead of philosophy these days.

I do not, nor do a lot of people who have walked away, think AA is all hogwash.

The main idea was recovery and that's great. The vehicle was " sprituality " -kind

of a loosely based religion (God as you understand Him). Even in the Chapter to

the Agnostics, there is no room for free thinking-it is an essay in what Dr. Bob

and Bill W. believed and encouraged the reader to believe in God. I struggled

with religion and God most of my life. It just never felt comfortable or

secure.

As a free thinker, I feel at peace with myself. In AA, I was guilt-ridden. How

many times have you gone to a meeting and really wanted help and for people to

listen to you, only to have them ask you what step you were working on? That is

a guilt trip I don't need. I can feel guilty all on my own, thank you. And as

far as I'm concerned, I'm the one one who got sober-God didn't do it. I make my

own car payments, too. God doesn't do that, either.

I do not agree that AA and step-free are symbiotic. They are choices. I

believe the new trend is towards step-free groups. AA does not know how to

address drug addicts, makes people feel guilty for using pain medication and is

anti-women. Bill wrote the chapter to wives-not Lois. He didn't think she

possessed enough intelligence. In fact, he was probably power-tripping about

writing his book. So it tells women to kiss their alcoholic husband's butt; be

understanding, forgive all the times he screwed around or didn't come home at

all-it's YOUR fault, after all...you need to be more understanding. GARBAGE!!!

Well, I tried being all that in my marriage and when he finally got straight-I

got a good beating for my efforts. And he was stone cold sober at the time.

Everyone I thought was my friend in AA thought I was drinking because I wouldn't

go to meetings and because I actually accused my husband of beating me. They

were telling me I should " work it out " with that asshole.

Did you know Bill used to bring his female conquests home? Do as I say, not as

I do...

I think most of us in step free believe very strongly that it works very well

for us and that it will be the best alternative to AA. AA is becoming archaic

and heading towards obsolescence. Check it out. All over the WEB there are

alternatives that deal more humanely with a recovering person than AA. Don't

get me wrong; I have a daughter who clings to AA right now. That's fine for her

and and I do not give out any opinions or arguments. She sees I don't drink and

I'm much happier and at peace than I have ever been. She's been sober almost

three years, but already she is asking me about step-free and interested in

alternatives.

, you're free to explore all areas. Broaden your horizons. There is so

much out there.

Love,

wendy

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165

> Hi Everyone:)

>

> I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme.

> Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me.

>

> I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I

> also like some of what AA has taught me.

>

> So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step

> free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find

> beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA.

>

> A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My

> boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night.

>

> He said:

> >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is

> >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure,

> >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA,

> >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic

> >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and

> >balances.

>

> Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we

> can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other,

> so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It

> reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the

> two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle.

> No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either

> side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were

> so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No

> one was looking in the middle.

>

> I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I

> don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of

> fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list.

>

> Thanks,

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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- Simplifying group communications

July 1, 1999

Joe-looks like we responded in kind to -well put!

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5169

> At 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote:

> >Hi Everyone:)

> >

> >I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme.

> >Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me.

> >

> >I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I

> >also like some of what AA has taught me.

> >

> >So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step

> >free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find

> >beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA.

> >

> >A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My

> >boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night.

> >

> >He said:

> >>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is

> >>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure,

> >>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA,

> >>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic

> >>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and

> >>balances.

> >

> >Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we

> >can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other,

> >so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It

> >reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the

> >two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle.

> >No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either

> >side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were

> >so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No

> >one was looking in the middle.

> >

> >I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I

> >don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of

> >fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list.

> >

> >Thanks,

> >

>

> Well I can gie you my own perspective. I think that seeking the middle

> ground is a healthy impulse. And if you are seeking the middle ground

> between two apparently equally valid sets of ideas then it makes sense. For

> me, the AA position has no real validity. AA is based on a set of ideas

> that are not true;

>

> # Alcoholism is a disease (not true, science never validated that disease)

> # You can't stop drinking without God's help (not true, modern methods work)

> # AA is effective (not true, AA's own figures show it retains 5% over 1 year)

> # If you don't get God in your life you will continue to drink (not true,

> that is superstitious rubbish)

> # If you don't like the steps you are sick (not true, if you don't like the

> steps you are excercising critical thinking, a vital tool for independent

> healthy living)

>

> And so on. I could go on but there is no need. AA is based on many untruths

> and I do not need to be in a middle ground position regarding that- I have

> studied the program for many years and I am satisfied that it is a crock

> and I can safely regard it as such. Having some other accepting/enabling

> relationship to such a bundle of untruths would not be healthy for me.

>

> As for this group existing symbiotically with AA, not quite. There exists a

> movement to make modern and effective recovery methods available. That

> would continue if AA disappeared. There exists a movement to help people

> break free from the programming and harmful effects of mind control cults.

> That would continue if AA disappeared. There is more to this than just a

> reaction to AA- that is just the chief focus, and will probably remain so

> until the grave injustices and abuses perpetrated by the present situation

> are significantly changed for the better.

>

> AA is simply an overblown supertitious-religious organisation that has

> outgrown (massively) its real usefullness, which is very limited. It has

> become a cash cow for unscrupulous treatment providers, which is what is

> largely supporting its continued existence. Its tenets are not supported by

> science. No need to treat is as if it was some sacred cowm, or as if some

> of it must be true just because lots of people beleive it. Lots of people

> once believed the earth was flat, and we don't need to take any " middle

> ground " position with that- we know it just isn't true. The Church

> violently protected those beliefs but they were just not true. Progress

> takes place when outdated superstitous beliefs that work against humanity

> are confronted as such.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

> mailto:joe-b@...

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 1, 1999

Hi :

I tend to agree with what wrote the most. There is something I learned in

AA that I found valuable. The spiritual journey, which I interpret as " of or

relating to the spirit " - nurturing how we feel on the inside versus how we look

on the outside. But ultimately, I also learned that AA is extremely unspiritual.

Touting the party line, and trying to define my life according to the narrow

confines of the AA religion does not work. My problems were the usual disorders

of a traditional female socialization. Caring for others even if they don't

deserve it. Forgiving mistreatment. Avoiding anger. All these things are

REINFORCED and AGGRAVATED by AA, and not cured by it. My life simply does not

fit the AA model. AA's " after picture " is truly my " before picture " .

As much as I would like the group support, I cannot live my life as a fraud,

having suffered from the inability to tolerate bullshit most of my life. It's a

terrible afliction. Keeps me out of working in corporations or other types of

organizations where survival depends on the ability to manipulate the truth.

In AA, I learned the value of introspection, but by AA's bad example I learned

the value of exospection (that's a home-made word) namely, the importance of

examining cultural and family influences to try to find the nature of my

internal disturbance. Without exo-spection, I'd still be blaming myself for not

being able to adjust to the demands of my family, and the demands of our crazy

world!

Apple