Re: the middle ground??

[Guest guest]

and :

The reason I am in this group is the result of my fiance's son being killed

three days before our wedding. That was April 11.

It IS okay to hurt, to be angry, to grieve, but like you, I feel so damned lost

and alone. I feel guilty partly because I loved that boy and treated him better

than any of my children. He drove an hour each way every Tuesday on his day off

to see us and bring our grandchild. His dad said we talked about things he

never discussed with him or his mother. I only knew him for three years, but I

have no regrets about things I didn't say or do. I always made sure to hug and

kiss him good-bye and send food with him and it felt right and good. I felt

like I was a good mother to him-something I lacked with my own children because

of my drinking and the amount of meetings I went to after I joined AA (So much

time wasted when I should have been raising my children).

I was a single mom, too-three children, going to college, going to meetings and

working. How I got a 3.57 GPA is beyond me-with all that going on. I was so

busy they grew up before I knew it. The youngest of the thress is almost 21

now. I've digressed, here. Sorry.

Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever stop hurting. I'm surprised I didn't drink, but

realized that drinking has never really been my problem. It is the way I think

and process my thoughts and emotions. I can be self-destuctive in so many other

ways.

I am so sorry about your losses. Very sorry. I hope you find peace in

yourselves.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5204

> ,

>

> I am so sorry about the deaths...I am so very sorry:(

>

> {{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}

>

> It is ok to hurt honey...it is ok to hurt very badly at times....and you are

> right, the first thing that would have came out of an AA mouth is exactly

> what you said. My husband died on christmas day 1994, I had been sober for

> over 4 years...I held on as long as I could and relapsed 8 months

> later....and it wasn't the damn alcoholism that made me drink. It was being

> borderline and not knowing it and accepting it. I don't know if I could do

> any better today than I did then. All we can do is the best we can with what

> is in front of us, with what has been dealt to us. Life hurts. And the more

> we can accept that and not fight it....

>

> , I am so sorry....so very sorry....dang I wish I could do more

> besides say I am sorry. Words are so useless at times it seems....

>

>

>

>

>

> > please don't do this!! It's not about hate its about wanting people to

> >see that The Program is detrimental to your mental health. There is nothing

> >healthy about it. I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I really did not mean to

> >hurt your feeling. But I do hate them for there promises for there mind games

> >and there lies. I lost my father 2 months ago and lost my Grandfather today.

> >My AA group would have said as long as I don't drink over it , it will be ok

> >today. Bullshit!! I hurt like crazy and that is acceptable behavior. I need

> >to feel this to be human!!! It's not all about the drink. Its being able to

> >live like a person again, to have my own feelings and not have to apologize

> >for them

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >eGroups Spotlight:

> > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> > http://clickhere./click/114

> >

> >

> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

---

Hi list,

There is another major reason why AA and 12-step-free cannot be considered

two sides of the same coin, and why the idea of a " middle ground " is ludicrous

-- all the alternative programs used by 12sf members (including no program at

all) are completely voluntary, and it would be safe to assume that those

utilizing such programs or philosophies are deriving benefit from them. OTOH,

it is well-documented that up to 50% of attendees at any given AA meeting are

there INvoluntarily -- by court or employer order, under threat of losing their

job, their children, their professional licenses, or their freedom from prison.

Some of these folks are required not just to attend, but to report to their

captors on their " progress " on working the steps, getting a sponsor, etc. A

great many coerced attendees aren't even alcoholic at all, but merely misused

alcohol on a single occasion. (My understanding is that 4 out of 5 people

arrested for a first DUI and forced to attend AA would never even come close to

meeting the DSM criteria for alcohol dependence.) What " beneficial " things are

such people supposed to learn in AA, where in the very first step, they're

required to claim that they're " powerless " over their drinking behavior, and

they're not even allowed to speak unless they call themselves " alcoholics " ?

A while back on the Usenet group ARAA, there was actually an argument over

whether people who are NOT alcoholics should be welcome in AA; there was a large

contingent that quoted the " 3rd Tradition " about " the only requirement for

membership is a desire to stop drinking " and used that to support the idea that

no one should attempt to cut down or stop drinking on their own, and that AA

should not be " snobbish " toward people who are clearly not alcoholic.

Underlying this, of course, is the religious belief that the 12 steps are a path

to " salvation " , and are beneficial for EVERYONE. Aren't there something like

250 12 step programs for various " spiritual diseases " (including one for people

who are " powerless over homosexual urges " !) all using the identical insipid

steps? And didn't the megalomaniac Bill write about the steps eventually

eliminating and preventing every imaginable type of " moral turpitude " ?

The combination of this kind of attitude, and the willingness to sign

attendance slips, is what makes AA culpable for the continuing practice of

coercion. The coercion itself is done by small-minded people with power who

incorrectly believe that (1) sobriety is impossible without belonging to a

" recovery group " and (2) that the " best " (or even the " only " ) recovery program

is AA.

, if you feel AA and the steps are meaningful to you or are

spiritually uplifting, then by all means continue to be involved with them. But

if you are freely able to make the choice of whether or not to go to " meetings " ,

you are luckier than many.

~Rita

--------------------------------------

>It is true that 12-step-free would not exist if AA did not exist, but I don't

think there is a " symbiotic " relationship, or that 12-step-free is a structure.

For the most part we share our experiences about AA and about getting free of

AA.

>

>I don't think there can be a middle ground as long as AA claims it's the " only

way. " (People have told me that AA never claims this, but I have heard it often

enough, even from people who have relapsed continually for a decade or more.

They believe that they are doing something wrong, because AA can't be wrong.)

>

>I think that certain principles of AA are useful. You don't need to belong to

AA to learn about them, use them, or believe them. " Live and let live " is a

handy example. But I have met few AA members who really know how to do this.

>

> wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165

>> Hi Everyone:)

>>

>> I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme.

>> Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me.

>>

>> I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I

>> also like some of what AA has taught me.

>>

>> So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step

>> free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find

>> beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA.

>>

>> A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My

>> boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night.

>>

>>

>> He said:

>> >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is

>> >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure,

>> >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA,

>> >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic

>> >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and

>> >balances.

>>

>> Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we

>> can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other,

>> so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It

>> reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the

>> two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle.

>> No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either

>> side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were

>> so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No

>> one was looking in the middle.

>>

>> I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I

>> don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of

>> fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hey ;

He sure did bring ladies home sober and he had a permanent one

stashed in the GSO also. That one he kept till he died.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

My first sponsor in AA told me that I had no business raising a child when I

could not even help myself, that she would have all the genetic tendencies

toward alcohol and drug abuse as me , and that this was a selfish program and

that I needed to put myself first. That was when I was 18. My Daughter has

been raised by my parents ever since, and I took the AA steps to virtual hell

and I am just getting back now. I am 31

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

johnhollister@... writes:

> I just reread 's letter. accused him of attacking her and

> ripping her to shreds in his letter. He attacks AA substantially, and

> defends the 12-step free group, but I don't see that he showed any

> malice to in any way. If anything his words were meant to

> enlighten and even carried a disclaimer that she was free to believe as

> she wished.

Other than a faulty third-person pronoun (I'm a " she, " but this is a fairly

common error and one I'm not the least surprised or offended by), I'd say

that this was correct in its essentials. When I wrote that: " this sounds as

if you didn't really want honest opinions, but merely wanted to have people

validate your own decisions " it seems I was more correct than I imagined.

Not only did I say she was free to believe or disbelieve anything she read

here - my own words included - I encouraged her to think for herself. But

apparently, this was too hateful and threatening a concept for her to grasp.

I find this rather sad.

Regards,

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi and All;

I think beyond our mutual dislike for AA we need share some other

things.

Freedom of speech and expression. Attack the idea, not the

person.

Being a PTSD person myself, I would have felt attacked by that

post . The difference is I would have came out kicking ass, where

she retreated. The difference is she is 18 months into getting

better and I'm several times that and have completed therapy.

A wise old Blacksmith from North Dakota once told me. " You can

attack a mans ideas, you can criticise his work, but never attack

his dignity or you'll make a lifelong enemy. "

The statement " Let me get this straight! " is the rhetoric of a

prosecutor on cross examination, trying to shake somebody a

little. Not only that, it was rhetorical and unnecessary, though good

to make a point.

I don't disagree with using it, but call a spade a spade, its an

aggressive phrase(Wish I had a spell checker) that's used that way

everyday.

She couldn't handle the heat so she got out of the kitchen. Isn't

that what we all did getting loose from AA?

I believe we should respect other sufferers choices, even when WE

think they are wrong.

How can we ask for that respect otherwise?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi and All;

I think beyond our mutual dislike for AA we need share some other

things.

Freedom of speech and expression. Attack the idea, not the

person.

Being a PTSD person myself, I would have felt attacked by that

post . The difference is I would have came out kicking ass, where

she retreated. The difference is she is 18 months into getting

better and I'm several times that and have completed therapy.

A wise old Blacksmith from North Dakota once told me. " You can

attack a mans ideas, you can criticise his work, but never attack

his dignity or you'll make a lifelong enemy. "

The statement " Let me get this straight! " is the rhetoric of a

prosecutor on cross examination, trying to shake somebody a

little. Not only that, it was rhetorical and unnecessary, though good

to make a point.

I don't disagree with using it, but call a spade a spade, its an

aggressive phrase(Wish I had a spell checker) that's used that way

everyday.

She couldn't handle the heat so she got out of the kitchen. Isn't

that what we all did getting loose from AA?

I believe we should respect other sufferers choices, even when WE

think they are wrong.

How can we ask for that respect otherwise?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol;

Even the government is wising up about 12step " Treatment " The

TX centers here in Iowa are closing because they are becoming

unprofitable.

Due to my disability I have Medecaid. They will now pay for

inpatient alcoholism treatment only after failure in an outpatient

program and a medecaid person gets two inpatient treatments in a

lifetime, that's it. We had treatment centers everywhere there was

a hospital ten years ago, many 40 bed units. Within a 50 mile

radius of where I live there is now 1 eight bed unit, that's it.

Medecaid got wise that the same two or three hundred people were

keeping these 40 and 50 bed units in business. They will however

pay for four day detox in a hospital if your doctor says it's

necessary. Longer of course at the doctors discretion. However,

the MD will only only do that for valid medical reasons.

If twelve steps worked so well, how come the same folks need 30

treatments. Most of those centers would recomend you come in

for treatment if you were a year sober and feared you'd relapse,

what a racket. Then they'd collect eight thousand to room and

board you for two weeks, maybe run you through a bunch of

medical tests to pad the bill. It was one hell of a cash cow for

hospitals while it lasted.

The most ridiculous part of treatment is that during treatment you

have to be hurt in order to feel better. Rather like doing surgery

without anasthesia because I'm a bad person. Out from under the

12 step spell it seems like the silliest most abusive thing I can

imagine.

If a doctor told me " You were stupid breaking that arm, so I'm going

to wait a couple of days to set it to teach you a lesson. " I'd sue the

SOB after I got another doc to set it. Yet I allowed TX to do

virtually the same thing.

If something is done to a convict and a court calls it cruel and

unusual punishment, why can the same thing be done in a hospital

and be called " Treatment " , I think the term is mistreatment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol;

Even the government is wising up about 12step " Treatment " The

TX centers here in Iowa are closing because they are becoming

unprofitable.

Due to my disability I have Medecaid. They will now pay for

inpatient alcoholism treatment only after failure in an outpatient

program and a medecaid person gets two inpatient treatments in a

lifetime, that's it. We had treatment centers everywhere there was

a hospital ten years ago, many 40 bed units. Within a 50 mile

radius of where I live there is now 1 eight bed unit, that's it.

Medecaid got wise that the same two or three hundred people were

keeping these 40 and 50 bed units in business. They will however

pay for four day detox in a hospital if your doctor says it's

necessary. Longer of course at the doctors discretion. However,

the MD will only only do that for valid medical reasons.

If twelve steps worked so well, how come the same folks need 30

treatments. Most of those centers would recomend you come in

for treatment if you were a year sober and feared you'd relapse,

what a racket. Then they'd collect eight thousand to room and

board you for two weeks, maybe run you through a bunch of

medical tests to pad the bill. It was one hell of a cash cow for

hospitals while it lasted.

The most ridiculous part of treatment is that during treatment you

have to be hurt in order to feel better. Rather like doing surgery

without anasthesia because I'm a bad person. Out from under the

12 step spell it seems like the silliest most abusive thing I can

imagine.

If a doctor told me " You were stupid breaking that arm, so I'm going

to wait a couple of days to set it to teach you a lesson. " I'd sue the

SOB after I got another doc to set it. Yet I allowed TX to do

virtually the same thing.

If something is done to a convict and a court calls it cruel and

unusual punishment, why can the same thing be done in a hospital

and be called " Treatment " , I think the term is mistreatment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Apple, and All;

It's possible that " Clancy " even stole his name from an early AA

member, now dead.

Municipal Court Judge Ray on, went by the name " Clancy "

and joined AA in the early 40's. Matter of fact he wrote a book

titled " Clancy Got Well " about his life and alcoholism. I don't know

if there are any copies around anymore. I read the book in the

early 60's and recognized who it was, because I knew The Judge. I

don't recall if he used his true name as author.

He was famous for his " Court Classes " for drunks and several

cities copied them. They weren't AA, just story and Q & A

sessions. He was the one who told me that if I'd stay sober 2

years they couldn't make whiskey good enough for me to drink.

He was right and he didn't qualify that with going to AA meetings,

just don't drink. My old sponsor(1st one) had Ray for a sponsor.

Before the advent of TX centers, he sentenced guys to 2 days in

jail, 10 dollar fine or 4 court classes, take your pick. for public

intox. Nobody had to go to jail unless they'd rather. Four hours of

his Court Classes always seemed better than the alternatives to

me. You didn't have to go to four consecutive CC's. If you missed

one just catch it later. However, best not get arrested again before

you completed or he'd get a tad irritated. You wouldn't like it if you

pissed him off cause 30 days was the max. For the two and three

time a week guys he handed out 30 days suspended a couple of

times then enforce all three on a third conviction for a total of 90

days in jail. The advent of the detox center decriminalized public

intox. However, that ended 3 years ago and Public Intox is again a

criminal offense. If they truly believe alcoholism is a disease, then

having public intox be a crime is like having " Being under the

influence of heart disease in a public place " , should also be a

crime. Makes sense to me anyway, fall down in the street with a

heart attack and they take you to jail. I would challenge it that

way, I think it's a potential winner or the demise of the disease

idea, and it really doesn't matter which. My primary care doctor

doesn't believe in the disease thing and believes I'm living proof. He

has no problem prescribing pain relievers for me. My previous

doctor was an internist with a long time AA father. He bought the

whole enchillada and would recomend against aspirin for an ex

drunk.

Why drunks are supposed to live with constant pain to get well has

always been a mystery to me. However, every treatment I've ever

been in has advocated just that. It's sin and pennance when you

get down to the nitty gritty, ala St Augustine who ate his own feces

for punishment for addiction. And they made him a saint for doing

it.

What a crock of....... for St Augustine anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

On another list a woman said that when she left Alanon she

discoverd that " Thorns have Roses " . I think I had heard it

somewhere before, but I still like it. It fits with 12step beliefs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita;

I was one of those folks Kayleigh mentioned who thought AA was

the only way, even though I kept relapsing for decades.

AA is rather like folks we've seen who promote the controversy and

then claim either to be injured by it or be no part of it at all and

wonder what the fuss is all about. AA allows no middle ground and

brooks no disagreement.

When I finally got proper therapy, I had more trouble dealing with

the abuse heaped on me in AA, than that from my childhood. In so

called treatment the ends justify the means. I've had therapist's in

12steps lie to me. When I discover it and call them on it, I get " So,

I lied, I couldn't get your cooperation otherwise "

I was so fed up that when the parole board told me I had to go to

treatment to get a parole I refused. I had a tad over three years in

on 25. However, I sued and got my parole a few months later. I

sued on the basis the board wasn't qualified to know if I needed

treatment or not. This was a minefield for the state if it went class,

they'd not be able to force anyone without hiring shrinks and

running an evaluation program. Mucho bucks involved. The State

responded with a consent decree and after the court signed on, I

was outta' there. I had asked for a parole since the board had said

they'd grant parole after treatment. The State Psychologist who

saw me for 30 minutes every six months had approved me for

parole at the 2 year mark. He couldn't very well reverse himself

and say that two months after an approved he changed his mind

and I needed further treatment. He had given me an approved not

just at 2 years, but at the next two reviews also.

The shame of it is nobody followed up and there were a couple or

three guys capable. Guys in the joint get so afraid they'll make a

wave, they'll sit in there instead of taking a risk.

My risk wasn't as big as it looked, but still large. A 25 in Iowa with

good and honor time off, discharges in 10 years and 4 months. I

got out May 4, 81, sentence expiration would have been Dec 29,

87. Rose and I were married a month and 4 days when that date

came.

I really had 6 and a half years left, not the 21 plus it looks like on

its' face. Still it was a fair sized risk.

Sick as it may sound. At the time I didn't really care. In prison I

was a success, I had failed at everything I tried in the free world

including staying sober. I was single with no family that wanted

me around and no idea where I'd go or what I would do. Why I

never got back into crime I don't know, but I didn't. I guess things

just happened too fast to think much about it. Things in the free

world run at Fast Forward, when compared to prison. I got out,

moved into a minister's house, got a disability check approved,

taught vacation bible school(Fun that), gave talks in churches

about the prision system and A Lawyer who knew me from a case

hired me to clerk for him, all in two months time.

Then I started going to AA, then started drinking again. It had been

over 4 years since I'd had a drink and I was on my butt in a hurry. I

still think that going back to AA was my downfall.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a

plaque off the wall.

The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to

change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone

had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No

one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group

of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around

that group and know what everyone would say, it was that

predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people

always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing.

After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it

was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving

sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway.

Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering

husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered

a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come

out besides anti women?

AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a

them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out,

all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that

way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Was Clancy the guy at University Synagogue in Brentwood??? (LA) I met his

daughter, or supposed daughter, and she is writing a book that I'm sure must

be related to her relationship with him. She went on and on when I met her

but I was unsure how to react. She is here locally. How interesting. Kathy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

A A A A GH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been going backward through today's

mail, and just read this..........UNIVERSITY SYNAGOGUE, Saltair and Sunset

Blvd. I spent my childhood at St. of Tour's on the other side of

Sunset. (sounds like a book title, and it was, oh was it ever, the other

side of Sunset!!!!!!!!!!!!) THAT IS HIS DAUGHTER LIVING HERE!!!!! Oh my

Gosh and I didn't believe her....... This is unbelievable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of the

sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my meeting

attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could

take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!!

Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to the

creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when

he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve

one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. I

often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to sustain

their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy

Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I

don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one of

the most radical and cult like groups in AA.

The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is

presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is

Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a

regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not allowed

to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are

required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that dating

outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular and

powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is

exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is

different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the

contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad

Conformity-Good.

It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst

thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now he

dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of others

as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego is

only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just

badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He

influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but

even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which

brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power trips.

He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are

treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember,

never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive

evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he

himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had

done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes

second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the balance.

Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his

minions.

AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I have

found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, and

that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of the

Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and

original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the collective.

Homey don't play that no more.

Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!!

D Hall wrote:

>

> Hi ;

>

> One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a

> plaque off the wall.

>

> The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to

> change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone

> had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No

> one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group

> of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around

> that group and know what everyone would say, it was that

> predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people

> always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing.

> After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it

> was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving

> sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway.

>

> Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering

> husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered

> a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come

> out besides anti women?

>

> AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a

> them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out,

> all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that

> way.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> http://clickhere./click/449

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of the

sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my meeting

attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could

take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!!

Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to the

creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when

he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve

one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. I

often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to sustain

their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy

Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I

don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one of

the most radical and cult like groups in AA.

The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is

presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is

Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a

regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not allowed

to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are

required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that dating

outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular and

powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is

exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is

different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the

contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad

Conformity-Good.

It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst

thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now he

dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of others

as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego is

only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just

badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He

influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but

even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which

brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power trips.

He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are

treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember,

never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive

evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he

himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had

done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes

second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the balance.

Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his

minions.

AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I have

found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, and

that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of the

Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and

original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the collective.

Homey don't play that no more.

Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!!

D Hall wrote:

>

> Hi ;

>

> One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a

> plaque off the wall.

>

> The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to

> change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone

> had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No

> one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group

> of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around

> that group and know what everyone would say, it was that

> predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people

> always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing.

> After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it

> was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving

> sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway.

>

> Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering

> husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered

> a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come

> out besides anti women?

>

> AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a

> them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out,

> all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that

> way.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> http://clickhere./click/449

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben;

My uncle used to say, " If you tipped the country on edge, all the

frruits and nuts would wind up in California. " I don't think he was

commenting on their agriculture. He lived in California most of his

adult life, said it was a great place for single people.

The California AA's I've met think alcoholics are way up on the

moral ladder compared to drug addicts. They don't like to hear that

Alcohol is in fact a drug.

At the same time they push the disease concept that says

basically alcohol and drug addiction are the same thing. Go figure.

I wonder why the contradictions and circular reasoning plus

codependent behavior expected from a good AA never seem to

bother them, even when pointed out and painfully obvious. To try

something again and again exactly the same way and expect

different results is part of codependent behavior, yet I did it for

many years repeatedly relapsing and know quite a few folks who

are still at it. Rather like beat the dead horse harder this time and

he'll come to life.

Maybe it's " Clancy I. Moon " , what?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

A few months ago, I got an e-mail from a guy who said that he was taken

to an AA old-timer's house and asked to scoop dog shit. I had not idea

it was the famed Clancy's dogs' shit. I see more in the conformity

versus individuality question. First of all, our culture is very big on

individualism. Compare the US to let's say Japan or China. I would

guess that the Clancy conformity trip is extra offensive to us

Americans. If Clancy was Japanese, would he turn his newcomers into

rugged individualists? I wonder... I would give my well thumbed copy

of the Big Book to be able to attend one of the Clancy meetings. Better

than a horror movie...

As far as creativity, artist and 12 step groups are concerned, were you

aware that there's a group called Artist Anonymous? Yes indeed. They

use the 12 step model to overcome artists block. Quite a scream since

the 12 step model is the antidote to any creativity as you have already

pointed out.

Apple

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5278

> So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of

the

> sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my

meeting

> attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could

> take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!!

>

> Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to

the

> creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when

> he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve

> one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me.

I

> often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to

sustain

> their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy

> Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I

> don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one

of

> the most radical and cult like groups in AA.

>

> The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is

> presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is

> Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a

> regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not

allowed

> to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are

> required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that

dating

> outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular

and

> powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is

> exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is

> different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the

> contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad

> Conformity-Good.

>

> It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst

> thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now

he

> dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of

others

> as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego

is

> only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just

> badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He

> influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but

> even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which

> brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power

trips.

> He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are

> treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember,

> never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive

> evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he

> himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had

> done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes

> second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the

balance.

> Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his

> minions.

>

> AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I

have

> found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition,

and

> that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of

the

> Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and

> original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the

collective.

> Homey don't play that no more.

>

> Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 09:00 PM 7/4/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Apple, and All;

>

>It's possible that " Clancy " even stole his name from an early AA

>member, now dead.

>

>Municipal Court Judge Ray on, went by the name " Clancy "

>and joined AA in the early 40's. Matter of fact he wrote a book

>titled " Clancy Got Well " about his life and alcoholism. I don't know

>if there are any copies around anymore. I read the book in the

>early 60's and recognized who it was, because I knew The Judge. I

>don't recall if he used his true name as author.

If a book was published, there are almost surely copies that exist,

and they usually end up in the hands of a bookseller who will charge

the going market rate for it. In recent years I've been fascinated with

books (well, obsessed - much more so than in previous years, and I've

always ben an avid reader). I have thousands of books (I'm pretty sure

it's still less than 10,000), am on two booksellers/collectors' mailing

lists, and have considered going into the used/out of print book business

myself.

Anyway, I found one copy on the metasearch engine bookfinder.com. It

shows up three times, all at the same price from the same seller, so it's

safe to assume it's the only copy in those databases. The $125 price is

what I would expect for something written by an early AA. The First Edition

Big Book, ANY printing, starts at $100 and goes WAY up from there (you don't

want to know) depending on condition, if it's got the original dust jacket,

how early the printing is, etc. And no, I don't have one. I have a couple of

second editions, which are no big deal, but are fun to haul out

(theoretically speaking, since I no longer go to meetings) when someone

starts to quote the 'acceptance' paragraph on page 449 of the Third Edition.

As for the modern Clancy, I assume this is the same legendary Clamcy I.

(an unusual last name that I forget) from Califormia who has spoken at

various AA conventions in Atlanta (and presumable everywhere else) over

the years. I missed hearing him one evening, bought a tape of his talk the

next day, then REALLY regretted not eing there so I could have walked out

after one of his more outrageous AA-fundamentalist type statements. I

forget exactly what the statement was, but it was very dismissive or someone

or some group...

Now I remember - it was about the 'watering down' of AA with the new-age,

Adult-Child-Of-Alcoholic, Bradshaw stuff, all the things that were

too 'liberal' for AA fundamentalists. I was into other 12-step groups such

as CoDA, and those groups unwittingly offered me a stepping stone out of the

fundamentalist AA that my sponsor was trying to spoon-feed me. What Clancy

said was, almost word-for-word, 'You can have your ACOA meetings and all,

that's just fine, as long as you leave that crap out of OUR AA meetings.

This got a big long round of cheers and applause, surely a standing

ovation.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

There is a website that has a couple of Clancy's leads on it. You play

it on RealPlayer. I can't remember any more how I found out about it,

or what it's called. I went there once, but wasn't interested in

listening to an hour or more of AA stuff.

Does anyone here know how to get there?

<7lp3lt$jnj-egroups> wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5279

> A few months ago, I got an e-mail from a guy who said that he was

taken

> to an AA old-timer's house and asked to scoop dog shit. I had not

idea

> it was the famed Clancy's dogs' shit. I see more in the conformity

> versus individuality question. First of all, our culture is very big

on

> individualism. Compare the US to let's say Japan or China. I would

> guess that the Clancy conformity trip is extra offensive to us

> Americans. If Clancy was Japanese, would he turn his newcomers into

> rugged individualists? I wonder... I would give my well thumbed copy

> of the Big Book to be able to attend one of the Clancy meetings.

Better

> than a horror movie...

> As far as creativity, artist and 12 step groups are concerned, were

you

> aware that there's a group called Artist Anonymous? Yes indeed. They

> use the 12 step model to overcome artists block. Quite a scream since

> the 12 step model is the antidote to any creativity as you have

already

> pointed out.

> Apple

>

>

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5278

> > So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of

> the

> > sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my

> meeting

> > attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could

> > take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!!

> >

> > Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to

> the

> > creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right

when

> > he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve

> > one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with

me.

> I

> > often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to

> sustain

> > their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy

> > Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I

> > don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one

> of

> > the most radical and cult like groups in AA.

> >

> > The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is

> > presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name

is

> > Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has

a

> > regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not

> allowed

> > to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are

> > required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that

> dating

> > outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular

> and

> > powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is

> > exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is

> > different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the

> > contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad

> > Conformity-Good.

> >

> > It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst

> > thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now

> he

> > dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of

> others

> > as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive

ego

> is

> > only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just

> > badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He

> > influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but

> > even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which

> > brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power

> trips.

> > He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are

> > treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement.

Remember,

> > never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive

> > evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he

> > himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had

> > done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes

> > second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the

> balance.

> > Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of

his

> > minions.

> >

> > AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I

> have

> > found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition,

> and

> > that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of

> the

> > Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and

> > original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the

> collective.

> > Homey don't play that no more.

> >

> > Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

I didn't know Clancy had a daughter, but the big meeting is held in a

huge Synagogue. He has become almost as legendary as the late Chuck

Chamberlain.

BALIHAI333@... wrote:

>

> Was Clancy the guy at University Synagogue in Brentwood??? (LA) I met his

> daughter, or supposed daughter, and she is writing a book that I'm sure must

> be related to her relationship with him. She went on and on when I met her

> but I was unsure how to react. She is here locally. How interesting. Kathy

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and discover more ways to save!

> http://clickhere./click/381

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 11:05 PM 7/4/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Kathy,

>

>I didn't know Clancy had a daughter, but the big meeting is held in a

>huge Synagogue. He has become almost as legendary as the late Chuck

>Chamberlain.

>

>

It amazes me to think about it now but I was a fundamentalist for a while,

and I still have the Clancy Imislund tapes, the Chuck C tapes (can't say I

thought toomuch of that guy even at the time and I never finished his book)

and the latter's book " A New Pair Of Glasses " (which really should have

been called " A new Pair Of Asses " . Considering my early leanings, my

recovery from recovery is going well, I think. If Chuck C is the same as

Chuck Chamberlain, which he probably is, I thought the guy was an idiot. He

used to say, with great passion " 'Self thinking' is INSANITY " . Little did

he knowm because he knew nothing of psychology, that anti-self thinking is

inasanity. He was a religious fool who thought he knew something.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

That's interesing , when you say that AA causes codependent

behavior. I tend to agree. It's a good antidote and balancing program

for the domineering individual, but if you start out as a codependent,

the results are disastrous. Starting from a point of codependency

myself, the most benefit I got from AA was when I did the opposite of

what it told me. Charlotte Kasl writes that codependency is the

traditional female socialization, and acting in this fashion will bring

praise & approval from the culture and family, because the codependent

is focusing on the other and not on the self which is great for the

culture & family, but not for the codependent. Indeed, all of my woman

relatives in the old country (Hungary) where I'm from were codependent.

I remember as a child thinking they were so darn " nice " because they

never thought of themselves first. Of course among my aunts & cousins

we found the " martyrs " who had abusive partners, but the women would

stay with them out of Duty. They'd deal with their feelings in church,

by praying to God. It was seen as the noble thing to do. Go to church

and pray on your knees, then go home to hear a drunken slob tell you

that your ass is getting too big.

Clancy sounds like a sick man. But hopefully, he's a sicko magnet, and

the other sickos will be drawn to him, (and away from me).

Now that I think about it, I always tended to pick sponsors who were

Clancy-like. I figured that when in AA - work AA like it says in the

book. I had one sponsor who kept telling me the following: Keep in mind

that I had 4 years sober...

If it feels right, it's wrong.

All you know how to do is drink.

Here I was, 30 years old, running my own graphics business, living in a

beautiful house, practicing good nutrition and exercising on a daily

basis, yet " all I know how to do is drink... "

There's only one appropriate response to that.

^click^

(phone hits the cradle)

> Hi Ben;

>

> My uncle used to say, " If you tipped the country on edge, all the

> frruits and nuts would wind up in California. " I don't think he was

> commenting on their agriculture. He lived in California most of his

> adult life, said it was a great place for single people.

>

> The California AA's I've met think alcoholics are way up on the

> moral ladder compared to drug addicts. They don't like to hear that

> Alcohol is in fact a drug.

>

> At the same time they push the disease concept that says

> basically alcohol and drug addiction are the same thing. Go figure.

>

> I wonder why the contradictions and circular reasoning plus

> codependent behavior expected from a good AA never seem to

> bother them, even when pointed out and painfully obvious. To try

> something again and again exactly the same way and expect

> different results is part of codependent behavior, yet I did it for

> many years repeatedly relapsing and know quite a few folks who

> are still at it. Rather like beat the dead horse harder this time

and

> he'll come to life.

>

> Maybe it's " Clancy I. Moon " , what?

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Oh, if anyone knows, please please please post it!

Apple

> There is a website that has a couple of Clancy's leads on it. You

play

> it on RealPlayer. I can't remember any more how I found out about it,

> or what it's called. I went there once, but wasn't interested in

> listening to an hour or more of AA stuff.

>

> Does anyone here know how to get there?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications