Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 At 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Everyone:) > >I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. >Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > >I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I >also like some of what AA has taught me. > >So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step >free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find >beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > >A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My >boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > >He said: >>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is >>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, >>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, >>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic >>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and >>balances. > >Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we >can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, >so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It >reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the >two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. >No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either >side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were >so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No >one was looking in the middle. > >I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I >don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of >fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > >Thanks, > Well I can gie you my own perspective. I think that seeking the middle ground is a healthy impulse. And if you are seeking the middle ground between two apparently equally valid sets of ideas then it makes sense. For me, the AA position has no real validity. AA is based on a set of ideas that are not true; # Alcoholism is a disease (not true, science never validated that disease) # You can't stop drinking without God's help (not true, modern methods work) # AA is effective (not true, AA's own figures show it retains 5% over 1 year) # If you don't get God in your life you will continue to drink (not true, that is superstitious rubbish) # If you don't like the steps you are sick (not true, if you don't like the steps you are excercising critical thinking, a vital tool for independent healthy living) And so on. I could go on but there is no need. AA is based on many untruths and I do not need to be in a middle ground position regarding that- I have studied the program for many years and I am satisfied that it is a crock and I can safely regard it as such. Having some other accepting/enabling relationship to such a bundle of untruths would not be healthy for me. As for this group existing symbiotically with AA, not quite. There exists a movement to make modern and effective recovery methods available. That would continue if AA disappeared. There exists a movement to help people break free from the programming and harmful effects of mind control cults. That would continue if AA disappeared. There is more to this than just a reaction to AA- that is just the chief focus, and will probably remain so until the grave injustices and abuses perpetrated by the present situation are significantly changed for the better. AA is simply an overblown supertitious-religious organisation that has outgrown (massively) its real usefullness, which is very limited. It has become a cash cow for unscrupulous treatment providers, which is what is largely supporting its continued existence. Its tenets are not supported by science. No need to treat is as if it was some sacred cowm, or as if some of it must be true just because lots of people beleive it. Lots of people once believed the earth was flat, and we don't need to take any " middle ground " position with that- we know it just isn't true. The Church violently protected those beliefs but they were just not true. Progress takes place when outdated superstitous beliefs that work against humanity are confronted as such. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 , When I started going to AA in 1982-I needed help. By the time I was sober about a year, my stepdad was asking me when I was going to broaden my horizons. He was trying to encourage me to be a free thinker and not " hang with the pack " . This advice was coming from a man who was a college professor and I had a lot of respect for him. I still do. He just turned 85 and has had several strokes and is not the man he was. I miss the talks we used to have. He'd be really proud of me if he could comprehend how far I have come. He prefers Jerry Springer instead of philosophy these days. I do not, nor do a lot of people who have walked away, think AA is all hogwash. The main idea was recovery and that's great. The vehicle was " sprituality " -kind of a loosely based religion (God as you understand Him). Even in the Chapter to the Agnostics, there is no room for free thinking-it is an essay in what Dr. Bob and Bill W. believed and encouraged the reader to believe in God. I struggled with religion and God most of my life. It just never felt comfortable or secure. As a free thinker, I feel at peace with myself. In AA, I was guilt-ridden. How many times have you gone to a meeting and really wanted help and for people to listen to you, only to have them ask you what step you were working on? That is a guilt trip I don't need. I can feel guilty all on my own, thank you. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm the one one who got sober-God didn't do it. I make my own car payments, too. God doesn't do that, either. I do not agree that AA and step-free are symbiotic. They are choices. I believe the new trend is towards step-free groups. AA does not know how to address drug addicts, makes people feel guilty for using pain medication and is anti-women. Bill wrote the chapter to wives-not Lois. He didn't think she possessed enough intelligence. In fact, he was probably power-tripping about writing his book. So it tells women to kiss their alcoholic husband's butt; be understanding, forgive all the times he screwed around or didn't come home at all-it's YOUR fault, after all...you need to be more understanding. GARBAGE!!! Well, I tried being all that in my marriage and when he finally got straight-I got a good beating for my efforts. And he was stone cold sober at the time. Everyone I thought was my friend in AA thought I was drinking because I wouldn't go to meetings and because I actually accused my husband of beating me. They were telling me I should " work it out " with that asshole. Did you know Bill used to bring his female conquests home? Do as I say, not as I do... I think most of us in step free believe very strongly that it works very well for us and that it will be the best alternative to AA. AA is becoming archaic and heading towards obsolescence. Check it out. All over the WEB there are alternatives that deal more humanely with a recovering person than AA. Don't get me wrong; I have a daughter who clings to AA right now. That's fine for her and and I do not give out any opinions or arguments. She sees I don't drink and I'm much happier and at peace than I have ever been. She's been sober almost three years, but already she is asking me about step-free and interested in alternatives. , you're free to explore all areas. Broaden your horizons. There is so much out there. Love, wendy wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Joe-looks like we responded in kind to -well put! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5169 > At 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi Everyone:) > > > >I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > >Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > > >I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > >also like some of what AA has taught me. > > > >So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > >free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > >beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > > >A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > >boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > > > >He said: > >>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >>balances. > > > >Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > >can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > >so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > >reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > >two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > >No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > >side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > >so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > >one was looking in the middle. > > > >I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > >don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > >fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > > >Thanks, > > > > Well I can gie you my own perspective. I think that seeking the middle > ground is a healthy impulse. And if you are seeking the middle ground > between two apparently equally valid sets of ideas then it makes sense. For > me, the AA position has no real validity. AA is based on a set of ideas > that are not true; > > # Alcoholism is a disease (not true, science never validated that disease) > # You can't stop drinking without God's help (not true, modern methods work) > # AA is effective (not true, AA's own figures show it retains 5% over 1 year) > # If you don't get God in your life you will continue to drink (not true, > that is superstitious rubbish) > # If you don't like the steps you are sick (not true, if you don't like the > steps you are excercising critical thinking, a vital tool for independent > healthy living) > > And so on. I could go on but there is no need. AA is based on many untruths > and I do not need to be in a middle ground position regarding that- I have > studied the program for many years and I am satisfied that it is a crock > and I can safely regard it as such. Having some other accepting/enabling > relationship to such a bundle of untruths would not be healthy for me. > > As for this group existing symbiotically with AA, not quite. There exists a > movement to make modern and effective recovery methods available. That > would continue if AA disappeared. There exists a movement to help people > break free from the programming and harmful effects of mind control cults. > That would continue if AA disappeared. There is more to this than just a > reaction to AA- that is just the chief focus, and will probably remain so > until the grave injustices and abuses perpetrated by the present situation > are significantly changed for the better. > > AA is simply an overblown supertitious-religious organisation that has > outgrown (massively) its real usefullness, which is very limited. It has > become a cash cow for unscrupulous treatment providers, which is what is > largely supporting its continued existence. Its tenets are not supported by > science. No need to treat is as if it was some sacred cowm, or as if some > of it must be true just because lots of people beleive it. Lots of people > once believed the earth was flat, and we don't need to take any " middle > ground " position with that- we know it just isn't true. The Church > violently protected those beliefs but they were just not true. Progress > takes place when outdated superstitous beliefs that work against humanity > are confronted as such. > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Hi : I tend to agree with what wrote the most. There is something I learned in AA that I found valuable. The spiritual journey, which I interpret as " of or relating to the spirit " - nurturing how we feel on the inside versus how we look on the outside. But ultimately, I also learned that AA is extremely unspiritual. Touting the party line, and trying to define my life according to the narrow confines of the AA religion does not work. My problems were the usual disorders of a traditional female socialization. Caring for others even if they don't deserve it. Forgiving mistreatment. Avoiding anger. All these things are REINFORCED and AGGRAVATED by AA, and not cured by it. My life simply does not fit the AA model. AA's " after picture " is truly my " before picture " . As much as I would like the group support, I cannot live my life as a fraud, having suffered from the inability to tolerate bullshit most of my life. It's a terrible afliction. Keeps me out of working in corporations or other types of organizations where survival depends on the ability to manipulate the truth. In AA, I learned the value of introspection, but by AA's bad example I learned the value of exospection (that's a home-made word) namely, the importance of examining cultural and family influences to try to find the nature of my internal disturbance. Without exo-spection, I'd still be blaming myself for not being able to adjust to the demands of my family, and the demands of our crazy world! Apple original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Hi : I tend to agree with what wrote the most. There is something I learned in AA that I found valuable. The spiritual journey, which I interpret as " of or relating to the spirit " - nurturing how we feel on the inside versus how we look on the outside. But ultimately, I also learned that AA is extremely unspiritual. Touting the party line, and trying to define my life according to the narrow confines of the AA religion does not work. My problems were the usual disorders of a traditional female socialization. Caring for others even if they don't deserve it. Forgiving mistreatment. Avoiding anger. All these things are REINFORCED and AGGRAVATED by AA, and not cured by it. My life simply does not fit the AA model. AA's " after picture " is truly my " before picture " . As much as I would like the group support, I cannot live my life as a fraud, having suffered from the inability to tolerate bullshit most of my life. It's a terrible afliction. Keeps me out of working in corporations or other types of organizations where survival depends on the ability to manipulate the truth. In AA, I learned the value of introspection, but by AA's bad example I learned the value of exospection (that's a home-made word) namely, the importance of examining cultural and family influences to try to find the nature of my internal disturbance. Without exo-spection, I'd still be blaming myself for not being able to adjust to the demands of my family, and the demands of our crazy world! Apple original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 in aa you learn to feel ashamed, to rely on unqualified people to judge you and not yourself, to consider yourself characterlogically defective, that a " disease " prevents you from taking immediate personal responsibility for your actions, that you need to associate w others whose focus in life is either drinking or not drinking, that cross talk and critical thinking are to be by passed, that the Borg is more important than the rest of society, that going to meetings is more important than rebuilding the family, that leaving will doom you to drink, death, jail or eternal unhaapiness, that slogans work buy you don't, that recovery is a never ending, never graduating process, that you are a lable which defines you as aklways a loser and unpredictable, that you need to recruit others to a negative perception of themselves so that you stay sober, that you endorse the gov't paying for this quasi religious program without separation of chuch and state etc, etc, etc...,etc. visit http://www.bcrecovernet.or to see how dubed people have been. carol fAt 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Everyone:) > >I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. >Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > >I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I >also like some of what AA has taught me. > >So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step >free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find >beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > >A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My >boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > >He said: >>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is >>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, >>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, >>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic >>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and >>balances. > >Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we >can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, >so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It >reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the >two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. >No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either >side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were >so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No >one was looking in the middle. > >I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I >don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of >fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > >Thanks, > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 in aa you learn to feel ashamed, to rely on unqualified people to judge you and not yourself, to consider yourself characterlogically defective, that a " disease " prevents you from taking immediate personal responsibility for your actions, that you need to associate w others whose focus in life is either drinking or not drinking, that cross talk and critical thinking are to be by passed, that the Borg is more important than the rest of society, that going to meetings is more important than rebuilding the family, that leaving will doom you to drink, death, jail or eternal unhaapiness, that slogans work buy you don't, that recovery is a never ending, never graduating process, that you are a lable which defines you as aklways a loser and unpredictable, that you need to recruit others to a negative perception of themselves so that you stay sober, that you endorse the gov't paying for this quasi religious program without separation of chuch and state etc, etc, etc...,etc. visit http://www.bcrecovernet.or to see how dubed people have been. carol fAt 12:47 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Everyone:) > >I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. >Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > >I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I >also like some of what AA has taught me. > >So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step >free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find >beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > >A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My >boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > >He said: >>Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is >>create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, >>really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, >>12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic >>relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and >>balances. > >Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we >can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, >so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It >reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the >two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. >No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either >side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were >so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No >one was looking in the middle. > >I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I >don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of >fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > >Thanks, > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Apple WHAT YOU SAID!!!! That was so right there is no middle ground in this. As long as you have your mind half way in the AA trashcan, you are doomed. your boyfriend may only have your best intrest at heart but what he does not realize is that AA will not tolorate any outside views or opinions, this group on the other hand will and all is open for discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 please don't do this!! It's not about hate its about wanting people to see that The Program is detrimental to your mental health. There is nothing healthy about it. I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I really did not mean to hurt your feeling. But I do hate them for there promises for there mind games and there lies. I lost my father 2 months ago and lost my Grandfather today. My AA group would have said as long as I don't drink over it , it will be ok today. Bullshit!! I hurt like crazy and that is acceptable behavior. I need to feel this to be human!!! It's not all about the drink. Its being able to live like a person again, to have my own feelings and not have to apologize for them ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 , it is not a hate trip here. These kind and wise people have been where you are. Please don't throw in the towel. I don't usually speak up but want you to know there are those that really, really care. And respect your thoughts, opinions, lifestyle, WHATEVER, without judging. kathy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 It is true that 12-step-free would not exist if AA did not exist, but I don't think there is a " symbiotic " relationship, or that 12-step-free is a structure. For the most part we share our experiences about AA and about getting free of AA. I don't think there can be a middle ground as long as AA claims it's the " only way. " (People have told me that AA never claims this, but I have heard it often enough, even from people who have relapsed continually for a decade or more. They believe that they are doing something wrong, because AA can't be wrong.) I think that certain principles of AA are useful. You don't need to belong to AA to learn about them, use them, or believe them. " Live and let live " is a handy example. But I have met few AA members who really know how to do this. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 You've reminded me of an anecdote that's semi-amusing. When I attended AA, there was a guy that came to one group I went to who used to claim that he didn't do anything, that God did it all. He was the owner of a very successful business. Every time he said this (and it was every time he was there), I used to mutter to whoever was next to me at least one question along the lines of " Does God comb his hair? " " Does God plan his ad layouts? " " Does God buy his groceries? " " Does God put his pants on? " " Does God pick his inventory? " It became a challenge to become more and more creative with these questions. Nobody ever seemed to mind it, I think we all agreed this guy was over the top. <7lgdj7$pin-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5170 > , > > When I started going to AA in 1982-I needed help. By the time I was sober about a year, my stepdad was asking me when I was going to broaden my horizons. He was trying to encourage me to be a free thinker and not " hang with the pack " . This advice was coming from a man who was a college professor and I had a lot of respect for him. I still do. He just turned 85 and has had several strokes and is not the man he was. I miss the talks we used to have. He'd be really proud of me if he could comprehend how far I have come. He prefers Jerry Springer instead of philosophy these days. > > I do not, nor do a lot of people who have walked away, think AA is all hogwash. The main idea was recovery and that's great. The vehicle was " sprituality " -kind of a loosely based religion (God as you understand Him). Even in the Chapter to the Agnostics, there is no room for free thinking-it is an essay in what Dr. Bob and Bill W. believed and encouraged the reader to believe in God. I struggled with religion and God most of my life. It just never felt comfortable or secure. > > As a free thinker, I feel at peace with myself. In AA, I was guilt-ridden. How many times have you gone to a meeting and really wanted help and for people to listen to you, only to have them ask you what step you were working on? That is a guilt trip I don't need. I can feel guilty all on my own, thank you. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm the one one who got sober-God didn't do it. I make my own car payments, too. God doesn't do that, either. > > I do not agree that AA and step-free are symbiotic. They are choices. I believe the new trend is towards step-free groups. AA does not know how to address drug addicts, makes people feel guilty for using pain medication and is anti-women. Bill wrote the chapter to wives-not Lois. He didn't think she possessed enough intelligence. In fact, he was probably power-tripping about writing his book. So it tells women to kiss their alcoholic husband's butt; be understanding, forgive all the times he screwed around or didn't come home at all-it's YOUR fault, after all...you need to be more understanding. GARBAGE!!! > > Well, I tried being all that in my marriage and when he finally got straight-I got a good beating for my efforts. And he was stone cold sober at the time. Everyone I thought was my friend in AA thought I was drinking because I wouldn't go to meetings and because I actually accused my husband of beating me. They were telling me I should " work it out " with that asshole. > > Did you know Bill used to bring his female conquests home? Do as I say, not as I do... > > I think most of us in step free believe very strongly that it works very well for us and that it will be the best alternative to AA. AA is becoming archaic and heading towards obsolescence. Check it out. All over the WEB there are alternatives that deal more humanely with a recovering person than AA. Don't get me wrong; I have a daughter who clings to AA right now. That's fine for her and and I do not give out any opinions or arguments. She sees I don't drink and I'm much happier and at peace than I have ever been. She's been sober almost three years, but already she is asking me about step-free and interested in alternatives. > > , you're free to explore all areas. Broaden your horizons. There is so much out there. > > > Love, > wendy > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > > Hi Everyone:) > > > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > > > > He said: > > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > > >balances. > > > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > > one was looking in the middle. > > > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Thanks all for yourgood thoughts. I love words and they help the most. Espescially free thought and true kindness not slogans Thanks again ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 HI I think most of us would be very happy for AA to collapse and 12-step-free with it. I t would be very nice for this group to be unnecessary. I've been trying to synthesise XA and 12sf. I think it can be beneficial, findong ones own middle path between the two. I think the trouble is, that ppl in AA wont allow you to, in the sense hat you wont be alowed to talk it thru with them. They say meetings ruin your drinknig, well 12sf ruins your meetings. Ive found it harder and harder to go to an XA meeting, and when I got there harder and harder to accept what I hear. I'm fortunate in that my group is OA where its mainly more accepting women than wacko men, but if I spoeak out against steppism I will be excluded, especially as I am fat. anyway, if you try to make a compromise best of luck, tho as you yourself hacve posted, its pretty difficult to do with AAs. best, Pete On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:47:30 -0500 wrote: > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 HI I think most of us would be very happy for AA to collapse and 12-step-free with it. I t would be very nice for this group to be unnecessary. I've been trying to synthesise XA and 12sf. I think it can be beneficial, findong ones own middle path between the two. I think the trouble is, that ppl in AA wont allow you to, in the sense hat you wont be alowed to talk it thru with them. They say meetings ruin your drinknig, well 12sf ruins your meetings. Ive found it harder and harder to go to an XA meeting, and when I got there harder and harder to accept what I hear. I'm fortunate in that my group is OA where its mainly more accepting women than wacko men, but if I spoeak out against steppism I will be excluded, especially as I am fat. anyway, if you try to make a compromise best of luck, tho as you yourself hacve posted, its pretty difficult to do with AAs. best, Pete On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:47:30 -0500 wrote: > Hi Everyone:) > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > He said: > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > >balances. > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > one was looking in the middle. > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > Thanks, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 , I must have missed the part about having your mind half way in the trash can. But like I have said before, at this time in my life it is my " crutch " I have no family here, my boyfriend is 240 miles away. Single parent...blah blah blah....We all know that story... So for now, it seems I still need AA a small amount. Tried church again about 3 months ago, it lasted a whole three weeks....that is another long and sordid story where the minister didn't want me to use anti-depressents...Actually it was much more than that. I had met him during a real estate transaction (I am a real estate agent) and he more or less " screwed me over " royally...He, the minister said he would build a house (he is also a builder) for my clients. We went under contract, then he re-nigged and said he couldn't build it at the contract price. My people were more than upset to say the least. By the time it was over, my broker was in the middle of it, letting this " minister " have a piece of his mind. Why am I telling this story? sigh....AA, ministers, etc. Getting disillusioned I guess? Well I have a statement to say, and that is, even if all the people in AA lie to me, even if every minister on earth lies to me, I believe with everything in me that God is for me. And that is what I can hang onto. I guess I have never discussed with my boyfriend the inability for AA to tolerate outside opinions. Dang, I am getting depressed again...It is all just getting so negative. It is like a massive hate trip around here, and I don't care to do hate anymore.... >Apple WHAT YOU SAID!!!! >That was so right there is no middle ground in this. As long as you have your >mind half way in the AA trashcan, you are doomed. your boyfriend may >only have your best intrest at heart but what he does not realize is that AA >will not tolorate any outside views or opinions, this group on the other hand >will and all is open for discussion > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 At 08:39 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >I guess I have never discussed with my boyfriend the inability for AA to >tolerate outside opinions. > >Dang, I am getting depressed again...It is all just getting so negative. It >is like a massive hate trip around here, and I don't care to do hate >anymore.... > > I don't think it is necessarily hate- strong feelings can just be strong feelings. For myself, I am very aware that my best friends are all, bar two, still attending meetings! It isn't a problem, and they know what I think. They haven't explored the modern recovery options because they are too laid back now to bother!- and they aren't 12 step fundamentalists, so we can get along pretty well anyway. I certainly don't hate these people- they are my friends. But I do hate what the 12 steos did to me, and I hate the injustice in the present system whereby people are told that the 12 step way is all there is, or is state of the art- both statements being very untrue. There is a lot wrong with the present system and people are going to feel strongly about it. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 depressed by this group? don't be depressed by groups. no one needs aa or any group or academic perspective which directs them. family? i've been separated from family all my adult life but would respect myself less for being dependent on work colleagues or the herd of aa. Never mind all the trouble seekers of " the answer " get themselves into. The quiet life I quite enjoy. so enjoy yourself in aa if you like or wicca or church or scientology (they do narcanon). what anyone does is fine w me. if you don't want to be conflicted and are happy w your continued association with 12 stompers and value what they see in you as important to how you see yourself, cool. I just think no one can tell me how to live or how to evaluate life. God gave you free will. enjoy. Carol At 08:39 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >, > >I must have missed the part about having your mind half way in the trash >can. But like I have said before, at this time in my life it is my " crutch " >I have no family here, my boyfriend is 240 miles away. Single parent...blah >blah blah....We all know that story... > >So for now, it seems I still need AA a small amount. Tried church again >about 3 months ago, it lasted a whole three weeks....that is another long >and sordid story where the minister didn't want me to use >anti-depressents...Actually it was much more than that. I had met him during >a real estate transaction (I am a real estate agent) and he more or less > " screwed me over " royally...He, the minister said he would build a house (he >is also a builder) for my clients. We went under contract, then he re-nigged >and said he couldn't build it at the contract price. My people were more >than upset to say the least. By the time it was over, my broker was in the >middle of it, letting this " minister " have a piece of his mind. Why am I >telling this story? sigh....AA, ministers, etc. Getting disillusioned I >guess? Well I have a statement to say, and that is, even if all the people >in AA lie to me, even if every minister on earth lies to me, I believe with >everything in me that God is for me. And that is what I can hang onto. > >I guess I have never discussed with my boyfriend the inability for AA to >tolerate outside opinions. > >Dang, I am getting depressed again...It is all just getting so negative. It >is like a massive hate trip around here, and I don't care to do hate >anymore.... > > > > > >>Apple WHAT YOU SAID!!!! >>That was so right there is no middle ground in this. As long as you have your >>mind half way in the AA trashcan, you are doomed. your boyfriend may >>only have your best intrest at heart but what he does not realize is that AA >>will not tolorate any outside views or opinions, this group on the other hand >>will and all is open for discussion >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >>Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >>.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Just Tell Us What You Want... >Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! >http://clickhere./click/390 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 , I am so sorry about the deaths...I am so very sorry:( {{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}} It is ok to hurt honey...it is ok to hurt very badly at times....and you are right, the first thing that would have came out of an AA mouth is exactly what you said. My husband died on christmas day 1994, I had been sober for over 4 years...I held on as long as I could and relapsed 8 months later....and it wasn't the damn alcoholism that made me drink. It was being borderline and not knowing it and accepting it. I don't know if I could do any better today than I did then. All we can do is the best we can with what is in front of us, with what has been dealt to us. Life hurts. And the more we can accept that and not fight it.... , I am so sorry....so very sorry....dang I wish I could do more besides say I am sorry. Words are so useless at times it seems.... > please don't do this!! It's not about hate its about wanting people to >see that The Program is detrimental to your mental health. There is nothing >healthy about it. I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I really did not mean to >hurt your feeling. But I do hate them for there promises for there mind games >and there lies. I lost my father 2 months ago and lost my Grandfather today. >My AA group would have said as long as I don't drink over it , it will be ok >today. Bullshit!! I hurt like crazy and that is acceptable behavior. I need >to feel this to be human!!! It's not all about the drink. Its being able to >live like a person again, to have my own feelings and not have to apologize >for them > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. > http://clickhere./click/114 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:40:47 -0700 Hollister wrote: > Killer post ! > > When you said that Bill brought his conquests home, were you referring > to Bill . If so, was he sober when he did that. Well, I guess these days they would say he was dry drunk. I understand it was after he stopped drinking as well as before. certainly he maintained an affair with a fellow AA in the Service OFfice. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Joe, >They haven't explored the modern recovery options because they are >too laid back now to bother!- Joe, just what are these options? Are there some links? I tried one today that was suggested to me, but my server wouldn't pick it up... Thanks, At 08:39 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >I guess I have never discussed with my boyfriend the inability for AA to >tolerate outside opinions. > >Dang, I am getting depressed again...It is all just getting so negative. It >is like a massive hate trip around here, and I don't care to do hate >anymore.... > > I don't think it is necessarily hate- strong feelings can just be strong feelings. For myself, I am very aware that my best friends are all, bar two, still attending meetings! It isn't a problem, and they know what I think. They haven't explored the modern recovery options because they are too laid back now to bother!- and they aren't 12 step fundamentalists, so we can get along pretty well anyway. I certainly don't hate these people- they are my friends. But I do hate what the 12 steos did to me, and I hate the injustice in the present system whereby people are told that the 12 step way is all there is, or is state of the art- both statements being very untrue. There is a lot wrong with the present system and people are going to feel strongly about it. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 cathy501@... writes: > Dang, I am getting depressed again...It is all just getting so negative. It > is like a massive hate trip around here, and I don't care to do hate > anymore.... Let me get this straight: you ask us for our honest opinions on something and then turn around and accuse us of being on a " massive hate trip " when we tell you the truth as we see it? Most of the people on this list have good reason to dislike AA, whether for reasons of intelletual honesty, the way it is treated as the only alternative to drinking by the majority of so-called professionals, or personal experiences with people who supposedly follow AA's " way of life. " To me, this sounds as if you didn't really want honest opinions, but merely wanted to have people validate your own decisions. Quite frankly, they're your decisions. It doesn't matter a damn what anybody on this list says, myself included. Think for yourself. That you weren't even aware that alternatives to AA existed and had to ask here about them is indicative to me of something terribly, terribly wrong in the system. AA is almost never presented as " an " option, of even as " the best option " (even though the latter characterisation would be grossly misleading, in my opinion), it is presented as the ONLY option to the vast majority of people seeking treatment. People are given no credit for being able to discern for themselves what might work best for them, or for being able to make adult decisions. Instead, they are treated like children, told what to do, and then told to blame themselves if AA doesn't work for them. Yes, there's something very wrong here, and I don't happen to think it's with those of us who are speaking up in disagreement to this mindset. Most treatment centers I'm aware of don't allow their clients to read " outside " literature, e.g., anything which might promote critical thinking or any opinion other than that of AA. If the indoctrination is so fragile that it can't even stand up to the slightest critical examination, I would say that it's of very little use to begin with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 Hi ; I knew eventually I'd put my oar in the water. My bloody web box is screwed up at yahoo and it seems lots of others are having trouble too. But I couldn't resist 8-) I too, believe middle ground between AA and science hard to find. One crirical thinking question comes to mind, just an " I wonder " If 12 steps is really effective with addictions, why did its' author die from his addiction to tobacco? Why did he use LSD and still consider himself " Sober " , yet if others take prescribed psychotropic drugs its considered a slip? If it is a moral program why did cheat on his wife until his death with one continuous affair and some mini affairs in between? If it is an Honesty program, why did Bill write the chapter " To Wives " disguised as a woman? Is he a man I could respect? NO! I wouldn't want him in my house, and those are just facts of Bill W's life. Most were known and tolerated in AA. However, I only found out about the " To Wives " chapter recently. The other things I've known since around 1975. I learned them in bits and pieces from old timers who were in from the late 40's and early 50's. Still it might be possible for an immoral man to write valid rules of moral conduct without being able to live up to them. But why the double standard that when he broke sobriety with recreational drugs, it didn't count? The explanation I think is simple. He was a cult Guru and could do no wrong. He was above it all. Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert are other examples only they got caught by police. AA itself admits that 5% of alcoholics would stay sober with only a 20 minute lecture from their doctor, if caught early on. That from AA's membership report of 1996. I read some of it but couldn't see buying it for Thirty Bucks. In 1989 in treatment at Mercy Hospital in Des Moines, Iowa, a 12step treatment I was told that around 2% would make a year and only 1 in 4 of those would make 2 years. That comes down to one in 400 make two years. The reason? The other 399 don't work the program! Never there might be something basically wrong with the program that causes so many to fail. The reason AA fails in rural areas like where I live, is that we don't have the huge numbers of alcoholics it takes to get enough sober folks to replace the original core group. When they die or move away, the group dies from lack of new blood. The treatment center at Manning, Iowa has started several new groups. All died except the one at the treatment center itself which is mostly patients, with a couple of outside folks. Around here folks don't take it that seriously. They call it " Taking the cure " and then laugh because most return to drinking in a short time. Carroll, Iowa, 22 miles from here used to have seven active groups with two club houses. Now has one group that meets regularly in the Kiwanis Club. Out here AA is on the wane and kept alive by the two area treatment centers, one of which will be closing this year I saw in the paper. They are out of money The three groups I used to attend in Des Moines are all gone. Des Moines now has about 20 groups for 325 thousand people. Only one clubhouse that I'm aware of, there could be another though. AA has been a money machine and the insurance companies and the government were picking up the tab, but they are quitting. I called around about two months ago and found one meeting and two maybes within 35 miles. There is also the treatment center for other folks. The two Maybes were in Audubon and Guthrie Center. Both towns of between three and four thousand. Any movement or shift that starts here in the corn belt, usually reaches the cities a few years later. Des Moines has already been affected fairly heavily with the demise of the treatment centers. Mercy no longer has one, Lutheran Hosp doesn't, Des Moines General had The Harold Center and it's closed. I think III is still in operation, though The Polk County Detox at Broadlawns Hosp closed a couple or three years ago. Poor people detox in jail or pay a fine. Having AA slowly disappear out here has not done anything to me except make me feel that some folks will probably get well because of its' absence. By July 31 there will be almost no forced treatment because there will only be one 8 bed unit within 60 miles. The State units are all at least a hundred miles and barely known here. Problem is we no longer have a clinical psychologist since Dr Laing left. Pretty hard to get good folks to rural areas. We do have one woman who has a Masters in Counselling who is very good, but expensive. At 80 dollars an hour one must have a fair income to handle it. Fortunately our insurance covers it and Rose sees her now and then. put me through Imagery Hypnosis some years ago. I went under but nothing came back, but it was very relaxing. Strangest feeling when you are talking, but can't get out of the chair. I tried hard, but couldn't lift my arm, let alone my weight. The 12steps are beginning to die in the market place, rather like The Oxford Group before them. When the money goes as it has here, AA will have to live by " Attraction " and I don't believe in this day and age that it can. At least it will be a shadow of its former self. One day it will be considered a fad like the hula hoop only a longer lived one. The Big Book calls it " Moral Psychology " , but are the majority of the members moral? And where is the psychology? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 Thanks-just speaking what I felt. Writing is the best way I express myself. I was referring to Bill , yes. He certainly was sober when he did this under the " guise " of " helping people " . I have a friend who writes books about crimes and dirt on people. A few years ago, I protected what I knew from him. Now I'm kind of inclined to look him up and encourage him to write the book about Bill W. He only thought Bill had ONE mistress-HA! I'd like to help him with the research! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5176 > Killer post ! > > When you said that Bill brought his conquests home, were you referring > to Bill . If so, was he sober when he did that. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 LOL)))) I think it's funny that most people don't see the ridiculousness of his claims. Tolerance-there's another goodie they " practice " at the tables. Everybody just sits there and lets people rave and ramble. I remember years ago NOT sitting with a particular person at meetings because they spoke for no less than an hour during their " turn " . Nobody stopped him. Maybe it was because he was a postal worker....! <7lgse3$asu-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5189 > You've reminded me of an anecdote that's semi-amusing. When I attended AA, there was a guy that came to one group I went to who used to claim that he didn't do anything, that God did it all. He was the owner of a very successful business. Every time he said this (and it was every time he was there), I used to mutter to whoever was next to me at least one question along the lines of " Does God comb his hair? " " Does God plan his ad layouts? " " Does God buy his groceries? " " Does God put his pants on? " " Does God pick his inventory? " It became a challenge to become more and more creative with these questions. Nobody ever seemed to mind it, I think we all agreed this guy was over the top. > > <7lgdj7$pin-egroups> wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5170 > > , > > > > When I started going to AA in 1982-I needed help. By the time I was sober about a year, my stepdad was asking me when I was going to broaden my horizons. He was trying to encourage me to be a free thinker and not " hang with the pack " . This advice was coming from a man who was a college professor and I had a lot of respect for him. I still do. He just turned 85 and has had several strokes and is not the man he was. I miss the talks we used to have. He'd be really proud of me if he could comprehend how far I have come. He prefers Jerry Springer instead of philosophy these days. > > > > I do not, nor do a lot of people who have walked away, think AA is all hogwash. The main idea was recovery and that's great. The vehicle was " sprituality " -kind of a loosely based religion (God as you understand Him). Even in the Chapter to the Agnostics, there is no room for free thinking-it is an essay in what Dr. Bob and Bill W. believed and encouraged the reader to believe in God. I struggled with religion and God most of my life. It just never felt comfortable or secure. > > > > As a free thinker, I feel at peace with myself. In AA, I was guilt-ridden. How many times have you gone to a meeting and really wanted help and for people to listen to you, only to have them ask you what step you were working on? That is a guilt trip I don't need. I can feel guilty all on my own, thank you. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm the one one who got sober-God didn't do it. I make my own car payments, too. God doesn't do that, either. > > > > I do not agree that AA and step-free are symbiotic. They are choices. I believe the new trend is towards step-free groups. AA does not know how to address drug addicts, makes people feel guilty for using pain medication and is anti-women. Bill wrote the chapter to wives-not Lois. He didn't think she possessed enough intelligence. In fact, he was probably power-tripping about writing his book. So it tells women to kiss their alcoholic husband's butt; be understanding, forgive all the times he screwed around or didn't come home at all-it's YOUR fault, after all...you need to be more understanding. GARBAGE!!! > > > > Well, I tried being all that in my marriage and when he finally got straight-I got a good beating for my efforts. And he was stone cold sober at the time. Everyone I thought was my friend in AA thought I was drinking because I wouldn't go to meetings and because I actually accused my husband of beating me. They were telling me I should " work it out " with that asshole. > > > > Did you know Bill used to bring his female conquests home? Do as I say, not as I do... > > > > I think most of us in step free believe very strongly that it works very well for us and that it will be the best alternative to AA. AA is becoming archaic and heading towards obsolescence. Check it out. All over the WEB there are alternatives that deal more humanely with a recovering person than AA. Don't get me wrong; I have a daughter who clings to AA right now. That's fine for her and and I do not give out any opinions or arguments. She sees I don't drink and I'm much happier and at peace than I have ever been. She's been sober almost three years, but already she is asking me about step-free and interested in alternatives. > > > > , you're free to explore all areas. Broaden your horizons. There is so much out there. > > > > > > Love, > > wendy > > wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 > > > Hi Everyone:) > > > > > > I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. > > > Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. > > > > > > I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I > > > also like some of what AA has taught me. > > > > > > So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step > > > free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find > > > beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. > > > > > > A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My > > > boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. > > > > > > > > > He said: > > > >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > > > >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, > > > >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > > > >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic > > > >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and > > > >balances. > > > > > > Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we > > > can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, > > > so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It > > > reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the > > > two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. > > > No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either > > > side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were > > > so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No > > > one was looking in the middle. > > > > > > I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I > > > don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of > > > fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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