No Subject

October 7, 1999

Think back to the day or moment before you walked into the first AA

meeting. There is not one bit of AAprogramming in your mind. You had

probably been acting like a drunk, and thinking like a drunk but you

weren't one till you walked in and said their " magic words " . That's

when you bacame one. What were you going there for? Were you saying to

yourself that you were never going to drink again ever! or were you

going to go there to learn to moderate. If it was moderation, I'm quite

surprised you didn't drink within the first week or month as soon as

you heard that " relapse is normal " . Most of the moderation drinkers

used the program for keeping out of trouble by only drinking once in a

while, or they figure out that they don't need to come back, they just

need to cut back on the drinking, and succeed well at it. This is

planned moderation and is quite possible with or without AA.

On the other hand, I'll bet your choice was " never to drink another

drop again as long as I live, and i'll do what ever it takes so tht i

don't continue ruining my life and my love and pocketbook and my

criminal record, and my credit and my reputation and ......

And so you fell into the " it's the only way to get get help " trap that

Ann Landers, or your mother or your ex or the teacher or ??? told you

about. So did we all. Some of us were lucky to get out alive. They fed

you a lot of crap, and never taught you the one thing you went there to

learn which was how to quit altogher and forever, and to not change

your mind. Instead you learned that you can never quit, that you were

diseased and were destined to prison insanity or death if you ever did

drink again and you learned it so well that you want to go have a

drink to congratulate your self for quitting AA. If you have'nt spent

time on WWW.rational.org/recovery web site I highly suggest it.

it is pure abstinance, and very heavy in anti-12 step rhetoric, and

right ly so.

A good dose of Jack T. might be good for you at this juncture. If you

can get ALL of the 12 step crap out of your head, and understand that

you drank only because it felt so good--damn the consequences. , but if

you aren't yet very! very! deprogrammed, I would think right now a

drink or ten would send you running back to AA, which would be the

worst thing you could do to yourself.

That AA programming is why you are confused. You leapt out of AA with

your brain and your guts and your humanity. But you have to unlearn the

deep programming. Fortunately, you can do it in just a few days or

weeks if you put your mind to it. 12sf and www.AAdeprogramming.com is a

great start, try www.rational.org/recovery Congratulations for finding

your way here.

And most important of all, GET ANGRY! GET DEPROGRAMMED! Then GET OUT

and go have a life.

>

> kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8490

> > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to

my

> > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

> of

> > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

> i'm

> > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

in

> > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

go

> > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

in

> > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> program

> > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

want

> > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> being

> > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> day.

> > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > drunk. thanks.

> >

>

October 8, 1999

Howdy.

Personally, I don't drink. The reason is that I'm afraid that if I did, I

might be overcome by an irresistable compulsion to read the Big Book, and

then one thing would lead to another, and then I might go to a meeting, and

soon I'd be right back where I started -- hopelessly lost in a Twisted Maze

of AA Madness.

Based on your own history, and all kinds of things that only you could

possibly judge, moderation might be a sensible option for you at some point

in time.

But waiting a while might be a smart thing to do. Taking a drink when you

have only recently emerged from 2.5 years of AA brainwashing, and still

angry about the whole thing, just seems risky to me. If you put it off for a

while, then at the very least you will have shown that you can abstain

without AA if you want to.

-- wally

No Subject

>help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

>AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

>ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

>death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

>enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

>still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

>my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

>into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

>and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

>moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

>sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the program

>but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

>adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

>and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

>argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

>to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation. being

>sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

>learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

>really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every day.

>i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

>drunk. thanks.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

>you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

>today. http://clickhere./click/938

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

October 8, 1999

i think wally offers some good advise

" wally t. " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8507

> Howdy.

>

> Personally, I don't drink. The reason is that I'm afraid that if I

did, I

> might be overcome by an irresistable compulsion to read the Big Book,

and

> then one thing would lead to another, and then I might go to a

meeting, and

> soon I'd be right back where I started -- hopelessly lost in a

Twisted Maze

> of AA Madness.

>

> Based on your own history, and all kinds of things that only you could

> possibly judge, moderation might be a sensible option for you at some

point

> in time.

>

> But waiting a while might be a smart thing to do. Taking a drink when

you

> have only recently emerged from 2.5 years of AA brainwashing, and

still

> angry about the whole thing, just seems risky to me. If you put it

off for a

> while, then at the very least you will have shown that you can abstain

> without AA if you want to.

>

> -- wally

>

> No Subject

>

> >help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to

my

> >AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> >ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

of

> >death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> >enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

i'm

> >still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

> >my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

> >into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

> >and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> >moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> >sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

program

> >but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> >adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> >and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> >argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

> >to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

being

> >sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> >learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> >really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

day.

> >i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> >drunk. thanks.

> >

October 8, 1999

Hello!

The BS floating will take a while to disappear. But it does. And the

feeling gets better & better. A whole lobe of my brain which was

devoted to self-doubt and self-criticism has been freed up to pursue

other activities. Nice.

I found that reading about cults was extremely helpful. Two books you

may want to check out:

Combatting Cult Mind Control by Hassan

and

Recovery from Cults, Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual

Abuse by Langone

The phases of " recovery " from recovery are amazingly well documented.

At first I thought " naaaahhh... " AA wasn't a cult, but you'd be amazed,

all of the " breaking away " symptoms are described so accurately.

Keep us posted.

Apple

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8501

> thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

> sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

> of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

> that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

> treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

> know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

> whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

> me. i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

> involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

> for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

> of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

> has some good aspects--the collectivity, etc. but i'm an atheist and i

> don't want their brand of morality shoved down my face. so, thanks for

> talking to me straight.

>

> dmarcoo-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8500

> > im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing

> to

> > do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

> > choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

> > yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no

difference,

> > the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you

feel

> > uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

> > seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

> > if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on

> thsi

> > lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

> >

> > i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21

years,

> > and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

> > imagine you arent the same person you were when you started

drinking.

> > one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

> > with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years

> emotionally.

> >

> > I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find

same

> > appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

> > today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations

> today.

> > i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain

and

> > consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been

there,

> > done that.

> >

> > my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what

is

> > best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

> > choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

> > choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside

> of

> > aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

> > A.A. branded slogan could offer.

> > Dave

> >

> > kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

490

> > > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going

to

> my

> > > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and

threats

> > of

> > > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2

years.

> > i'm

> > > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

> in

> > > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

> go

> > > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

> in

> > > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this

whole

> > > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> > program

> > > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they

are

> > > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with

problems

> > > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

> want

> > > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> > being

> > > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink.

i've

> > > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make

me

> > > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> > day.

> > > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > > drunk. thanks.

> > >

> >

>

October 8, 1999

This is great!! You've pinned down exactly the reason I don't drink either.

Its not because I've got some kind of hatred towards alcohol. Its because

I'm so scared it will lead be back to AA and then not having any say about

my life.

The few times I've gotten drunk in the last 4 years my biggest fear has been

not a hangover or that I'm hurting myself. Its that fear that they will

commit me to rehab, force me to do the 12 steps and than make me go back to

AA.

Hell, maybe the crap does work. Although not like the mental health

industry would like. Its almost in reverse. AA sucks so bad because the

idea of losing one's freedom to choose and make there own decisions is

terrifying.

One thing I've learned the hard way is that everyone who drinks takes a

risk. And that risk is that they may get arrested for public intoxication

or DUI. And then they will be forced to attend AA and do some kind of

rehabilitation. For me, its just not worth it.

And I don't think anyone whose been arrested or gotten in legal trouble

because of they're alcohol use has ever been told by the courts , " its ok.

You've learned your lesson. Maybe it was just an isolated incident. " No,

most alcohol users who screw up are told they are alcoholic and need to

never drink again and attend AA till the day they die.

YIKES!!! How awful. Anyway, that's why I think really hard before I drink

anything with alcohol. Its like, 'is it worth it.' I just don't think its

worth the hassle. Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: No Subject

>Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:14:54 -0400

>

>Howdy.

>

>Personally, I don't drink. The reason is that I'm afraid that if I did, I

>might be overcome by an irresistable compulsion to read the Big Book, and

>then one thing would lead to another, and then I might go to a meeting, and

>soon I'd be right back where I started -- hopelessly lost in a Twisted Maze

>of AA Madness.

>

>Based on your own history, and all kinds of things that only you could

>possibly judge, moderation might be a sensible option for you at some point

>in time.

>

>But waiting a while might be a smart thing to do. Taking a drink when you

>have only recently emerged from 2.5 years of AA brainwashing, and still

>angry about the whole thing, just seems risky to me. If you put it off for

>a

>while, then at the very least you will have shown that you can abstain

>without AA if you want to.

>

>-- wally

>

> No Subject

>

> >help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

> >AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> >ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

> >death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> >enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

> >still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

> >my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

> >into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

> >and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> >moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> >sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the program

> >but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> >adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> >and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> >argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

> >to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation. being

> >sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> >learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> >really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every day.

> >i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> >drunk. thanks.

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service. Protect your files before

> >you lose them. Easy, Reliable, Secure online backups. INSTALL

> >today. http://clickhere./click/938

> >

> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

______________________________________________________

October 8, 1999

i just wanted to say that i found all of this cause i started looking

for info on cults on the internet. i found this book on est at a used

book store. i remembered vaguely that it had been popular back in the

70s. i liked the book. especially this part that said, " you are not

your problems. " I thought this sounds cool but kind of cultish. so, i

looked it up and it turned out to totally be a cult with spin offs and

stuff. anyways, i got into studying these anti cult websites. i felt

that aa definitely had alot of cult aspects to it. i thought i'd maybe

find something about aa on these sites but i didn't. and then one day i

just typed in " is alcoholics anonymous a cult? " on www.askjeeves.com

and all this interesting stuff popped up. i knew i shouldn't look at

that stuff cause i knew the information might throw me right out of the

rooms and it did. knowledge is a powerful thing and aa is the opposite

of that. i can't take believing for the sake of believing anymore. i'm

a materialist. not in the madonna sense but in the material world

sense. you guys are great!!!

ben bradley wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8504

> At 05:11 PM 10/7/99 -0700, dmarcoot@... wrote:

> >belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i

left

> >aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

> >knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

> >interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months

after

> >i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left

and

> >failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

> >found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a

distortion,

> >if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

> >similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety.

thank

> >goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

> >contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru

exactly

> >same experinces.

>

> That's a great paragraph - if you and Apple are agreeable to it, I

> think it would go well on the aadeprogramming site.

>

> >ironicall i started looking for info on cults,

>

> I did too, and found it very helpful.

>

> > because

> >i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

> >cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

> >widely accepted cults in methodology)

> >

> >it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and

to

> >fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

> >btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see

from

> >aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and

control

> >people.

>

> I similarly went in as an atheist, not really knowing why I didn't

> believe, just that I didn't, then got converted to the belief in 'god

as I

> understood him' along with quitting drinking. After a couple of years

> of doing as I was told I started to wake up, question why I believed,

> and look for some solid reasons to believe. Not only did I not find

any

> such reasons, I found some pretty good reasons not to believe in a

god.

> After my long journey through belief systems, I decided that God, like

> parapsychology, exists ONLY in the minds of people who believe in it.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

November 7, 1999

,

You need to go to:

http://www.eGroups.com/group/12-step-free/info.html

and modify your subscription to unsubscribe. Sorry you somehow got on

this list.

Kate

" brenda canfield " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9183

> I would appreciate t if you would pease take me off your e-mail ..I

don't

> know how or why I was added to this but never requested it... thank

you

>

November 19, 1999

lets see, im 3.5 years sober, 2.5 years free of 12-stepping nuerosis

bullshit, fully recovered from my alcholism. perpetual " recovering " is

self defeating nonsense. how do i not pick up? i believe in my own

ability to take care of myself, and i do whats in my best interest for

my health and well being as a practice of self respect. i find it work

much better than hoping groups, sponsors, shrinks or mythical beings

will do it for me or decide what my will should be. its a matter of

personal responsibility. and besides i dont want to pick up. here are

2 good links for you. good luck and enjoy.

http://www.unhooked.com/

http://www.peele.net/

dave

" ann pointon " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9536

> Im interrested to know if anyone has stopped drinking on this site

> and found a better way to get sobriety.

> Is anyone in rocovery and what and how do they stop from pickin up

> again

>

November 19, 1999