No Subject

[Guest guest]

> THE ANDROID WROTE...

>

> You people should think more about reprograming yourselves and stop

> worrying about the AA fellowship. Its wacko sites like this that

> could turn an alcoholic who desperately needs help, away from the only

> place that has truely helped the alcoholics in need! If you nut

> cases were right in your feminist/lesbian views, and had an answer for

> the suffering alcoholic,get it public! A web site loaded with

> propaganda, straight from the devil himself, will never give you any

> credibility. Why dont you start a site and terrorize the animal rights

> wackos. You seem to be mentally on about the same level!

> Sincerly,

> Bryce C.

> P.S.

> If you feel the need to respond, heres my e-mail.

> xbeerman@...

>

> I RESPONDED:

> > You have a problem with people pointing out the flaws in AA, the

> cracks

> > in the system??? Especially when people are getting hurt?

> > Any ninny could go to AA and see that either what weve written rings

> > true, or what we've written rings false!! If it rings true, they're

> > probably at a toxic meeting and their leaving is a good thing, if

> false,

> > they see me as a wacko and stay with healthy people,

> > so it's a win/win situation. AA had better get more " attractive " if

> > they want to keep their newcomers. You can't stop the world from

> > speaking out.

> > Apple

>

> THE ANDROID WROTE BACK:

>

> That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give you

this little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking) " If

you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem " .>

I still don't see the thinking behind the Deprogramming website as faulty.

Clearly the subject matter of the website is threatening to you, so that you

write about your reactions in a highly emotional way. But the strength of

your emotion is not evidence of the truth of what you believe.

Some people once believed strongly enough in slavery (among other issues) to

engage in Civil War in the US. Did the strength of their convictions make

them right? No.

Some people once believed strongly that women should not vote. Did the

strength of their convictions make them right? No.

> Until you have a way to help the millions of drunks out here, who have no

hope, you should stop trying to drive people away from a program that has

worked for countless numbers of people! >

We know of people who have been hurt by AA. Until AA acknowledges that

people do get hurt by the program, and addresses that reality in a direct

and honest fashion, there is a need for the information presented at the

Deprogramming website.

> Yes, some AAs have been abused or have self asteem issues,and I think

thats sad. This is not the case with most of us.>

Do you speak for the organization? If so, where do your statistics come

from? Can you cite the research that proves that most AAs have not been

abused, and do not have self esteem issues? Can I review the research

methods? Are the findings supported by more than one study?

> You feminists spend all your time looking for anything or anyone who has

caused an injustice to your cause.Try looking at your motives or your own

heart and you will be better able to make a difference! I feel sorry for

you! Try turning back to God! That could be most of your problem! >

That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give you this

little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking) Live and let

live. Is there room on this planet for even one person who questions the

perfection of the 12 steps as a spiritual program? Or must we all agree with

you 100%? Are there any topics upon which we are allowed to disagree?

One final question: You say that " we " feminists spend all our time looking

for anything or anyone who has caused an injustice to our cause. What led

you to the Deprogramming website? Were you perhaps looking for someone who

was doing an injustice to YOUR cause? Your character flaws are showing. A

4th step might help you with this big chip on your shoulder.

Judith

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Apple,

I think this guy better stick with God. He is clearly beyond human help.

I see no point in responding to the rationally illiterate. It's like

trying to speak French to turnips. It's a waste of energy and merely

dignifies their stupidity with a response. AADeprogramming is an oasis

on the net for those of us who can no longer sell out to bad science and

fairy tales.

Feminism is a peripheral issue that this moron chooses to denigrate your

site only to show his typically AA misogynist leanings. It is also clear

that his whole identity is wrapped up in not drinking as evidenced by

his handle, xbeerman. This is the sort of blinkered, philistine, pig

ignorance I have come to expect from his sort of non creative, BB

thumping garbage. Typical. Yawwwwnnnnnnnnnn.........

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> THE ANDROID WROTE...

>

> You people should think more about reprograming yourselves and stop

> worrying about the AA fellowship. Its wacko sites like this that

> could turn an alcoholic who desperately needs help, away from the only

> place that has truely helped the alcoholics in need! If you nut

> cases were right in your feminist/lesbian views, and had an answer for

> the suffering alcoholic,get it public! A web site loaded with

> propaganda, straight from the devil himself, will never give you any

> credibility. Why dont you start a site and terrorize the animal rights

> wackos. You seem to be mentally on about the same level!

> Sincerly,

> Bryce C.

> P.S.

> If you feel the need to respond, heres my e-mail.

> xbeerman@...

>

> I RESPONDED:

> > You have a problem with people pointing out the flaws in AA, the

> cracks

> > in the system??? Especially when people are getting hurt?

> > Any ninny could go to AA and see that either what weve written rings

> > true, or what we've written rings false!! If it rings true, they're

> > probably at a toxic meeting and their leaving is a good thing, if

> false,

> > they see me as a wacko and stay with healthy people,

> > so it's a win/win situation. AA had better get more " attractive " if

> > they want to keep their newcomers. You can't stop the world from

> > speaking out.

> > Apple

>

> THE ANDROID WROTE BACK:

>

> That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give you

> this little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking) " If

> you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem " .

> Until you have a way to help the millions of drunks out here, who have

> no hope, you should stop trying to drive people away from a program

> that has worked for countless numbers of people! Yes, some AAs have

> been abused or have self asteem issues,and I think thats sad. This is

> not the case with most of us. You feminists spend all your time looking

> for anything or anyone who has caused an injustice to your cause.Try

> looking at your motives or your own heart and you will be better able

> to make a difference! I feel sorry for you! Try turning back to God!

> That could be most of your problem!

> Sincerly, Bryce C.

>

> ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A CRACK?? I've run out of juice... yaaawwwnnn

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,

> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

> http://clickhere./click/606

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 08:42 PM 8/13/1999 -0700, AppleDTP@... wrote:

>THE ANDROID WROTE...

>

>You people should think more about reprograming yourselves and stop

>worrying about the AA fellowship. Its wacko sites like this that

>could turn an alcoholic who desperately needs help, away from the only

>place that has truely helped the alcoholics in need!

Do you hear that, Apple? You are killing people with your web site!

Why doesn't he just call the police, or call your ISP and have your site

shut down? You might suggest to him that if he really believes his own

words, that he should do these things. Your webhosting ISP will get a

good laugh, and the police will learn that they have a kook they might

want to keep an eye on.

>If you nut

>cases were right in your feminist/lesbian views,

>and had an answer for

>the suffering alcoholic,get it public!

He missed the " Fresh Air " links...

>A web site loaded with

>propaganda, straight from the devil himself,

Apple, you're getting info from the Devil!?! You didn't tell us! ;-)

>will never give you any

>credibility. Why dont you start a site and terrorize the animal rights

>wackos.

The animal rights wackos never did any of the things that AA did to us.

>You seem to be mentally on about the same level!

> Sincerly,

>Bryce C.

>P.S.

> If you feel the need to respond, heres my e-mail.

> xbeerman@...

>

>I RESPONDED:

>> You have a problem with people pointing out the flaws in AA, the

>cracks

>> in the system??? Especially when people are getting hurt?

>> Any ninny could go to AA and see that either what weve written rings

>> true, or what we've written rings false!! If it rings true, they're

>> probably at a toxic meeting and their leaving is a good thing, if

>false,

>> they see me as a wacko and stay with healthy people,

>> so it's a win/win situation. AA had better get more " attractive " if

>> they want to keep their newcomers. You can't stop the world from

>> speaking out.

>> Apple

>

>THE ANDROID WROTE BACK:

>

>That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give you

>this little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking) " If

>you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem " .

Just more black-and-white thinking.

>Until you have a way to help the millions of drunks out here, who have

He again must have missed your " Fresh Air " links page that goes to Women

For Sobriety, RR, SMART, SOS,...

>no hope, you should stop trying to drive people away from a program

>that has worked for countless numbers of people! Yes, some AAs have

>been abused or have self asteem issues,and I think thats sad. This is

>not the case with most of us. You feminists spend all your time looking

>for anything or anyone who has caused an injustice to your cause.Try

>looking at your motives or your own heart and you will be better able

>to make a difference!

But Apple, he should realize that if you do as he asks, look at your

motives, you will be more determined than ever to expand your site!

>I feel sorry for you!

Should we thank him for this?

>Try turning back to God!

An interesting comment from someone speaking of a non-religious

fellowship.

I'd go back to God, but He never did anything to stop my AA sponsors

from treating me like shit. But I was assured they were helping me -

as Bill W. wrote, " pain is the touchstone of spiritual progress. "

>That could be most of your problem!

>Sincerly, Bryce C.

>

>

>ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A CRACK?? I've run out of juice... yaaawwwnnn

Once again, I think there's value in the statement at the bottom

of <http://www.orbs.org/>.

-----

<http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved!

[Guest guest]

Oh , don't be such a spoil sport. Taking em apart is a good example

for others to see even if it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

rashle-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7423

> Hi Apple,

> I think this guy better stick with God. He is clearly beyond human

help.

> I see no point in responding to the rationally illiterate. It's like

> trying to speak French to turnips. It's a waste of energy and merely

> dignifies their stupidity with a response.

[Guest guest]

Oh , don't be such a spoil sport. Taking em apart is a good example

for others to see even if it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

rashle-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7423

> Hi Apple,

> I think this guy better stick with God. He is clearly beyond human

help.

> I see no point in responding to the rationally illiterate. It's like

> trying to speak French to turnips. It's a waste of energy and merely

> dignifies their stupidity with a response.

[Guest guest]

Maybe I'll pray for him instead... yeah, that's the ticket.

> Hi Apple,

> I think this guy better stick with God. He is clearly beyond human

help.

> I see no point in responding to the rationally illiterate. It's like

> trying to speak French to turnips. It's a waste of energy and merely

> dignifies their stupidity with a response. AADeprogramming is an oasis

> on the net for those of us who can no longer sell out to bad science

and

> fairy tales.

> Feminism is a peripheral issue that this moron chooses to denigrate

your

> site only to show his typically AA misogynist leanings. It is also

clear

> that his whole identity is wrapped up in not drinking as evidenced by

> his handle, xbeerman. This is the sort of blinkered, philistine, pig

> ignorance I have come to expect from his sort of non creative, BB

> thumping garbage. Typical. Yawwwwnnnnnnnnnn.........

> >

[Guest guest]

Maybe I'll pray for him instead... yeah, that's the ticket.

> Hi Apple,

> I think this guy better stick with God. He is clearly beyond human

help.

> I see no point in responding to the rationally illiterate. It's like

> trying to speak French to turnips. It's a waste of energy and merely

> dignifies their stupidity with a response. AADeprogramming is an oasis

> on the net for those of us who can no longer sell out to bad science

and

> fairy tales.

> Feminism is a peripheral issue that this moron chooses to denigrate

your

> site only to show his typically AA misogynist leanings. It is also

clear

> that his whole identity is wrapped up in not drinking as evidenced by

> his handle, xbeerman. This is the sort of blinkered, philistine, pig

> ignorance I have come to expect from his sort of non creative, BB

> thumping garbage. Typical. Yawwwwnnnnnnnnnn.........

> >

[Guest guest]

I had a nice bitter sweet reply all written and delivered for this and

when sent the e-groups sever says it has been sent to the moderator for

approval. Darn.

rashle-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7419

> THE ANDROID WROTE...

>

> You people should think more about reprograming yourselves and stop

> worrying about the AA fellowship. Its wacko sites like this that

> could turn an alcoholic who desperately needs help, away from the only

> place that has truely helped the alcoholics in need! If you nut

> cases were right in your feminist/lesbian views, and had an answer for

> the suffering alcoholic,get it public! A web site loaded with

> propaganda, straight from the devil himself, will never give you any

> credibility. Why dont you start a site and terrorize the animal rights

> wackos. You seem to be mentally on about the same level!

> Sincerly,

> Bryce C.

> P.S.

> If you feel the need to respond, heres my e-mail.

> xbeerman@...

>

> I RESPONDED:

> > You have a problem with people pointing out the flaws in AA, the

> cracks

> > in the system??? Especially when people are getting hurt?

> > Any ninny could go to AA and see that either what weve written rings

> > true, or what we've written rings false!! If it rings true, they're

> > probably at a toxic meeting and their leaving is a good thing, if

> false,

> > they see me as a wacko and stay with healthy people,

> > so it's a win/win situation. AA had better get more " attractive " if

> > they want to keep their newcomers. You can't stop the world from

> > speaking out.

> > Apple

>

> THE ANDROID WROTE BACK:

>

> That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give

you

> this little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking)

" If

> you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem " .

> Until you have a way to help the millions of drunks out here, who have

> no hope, you should stop trying to drive people away from a program

> that has worked for countless numbers of people! Yes, some AAs have

> been abused or have self asteem issues,and I think thats sad. This is

> not the case with most of us. You feminists spend all your time

looking

> for anything or anyone who has caused an injustice to your cause.Try

> looking at your motives or your own heart and you will be better able

> to make a difference! I feel sorry for you! Try turning back to God!

> That could be most of your problem!

> Sincerly, Bryce C.

>

>

> ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A CRACK?? I've run out of juice... yaaawwwnnn

>

[Guest guest]

I had a nice bitter sweet reply all written and delivered for this and

when sent the e-groups sever says it has been sent to the moderator for

approval. Darn.

rashle-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7419

> THE ANDROID WROTE...

>

> You people should think more about reprograming yourselves and stop

> worrying about the AA fellowship. Its wacko sites like this that

> could turn an alcoholic who desperately needs help, away from the only

> place that has truely helped the alcoholics in need! If you nut

> cases were right in your feminist/lesbian views, and had an answer for

> the suffering alcoholic,get it public! A web site loaded with

> propaganda, straight from the devil himself, will never give you any

> credibility. Why dont you start a site and terrorize the animal rights

> wackos. You seem to be mentally on about the same level!

> Sincerly,

> Bryce C.

> P.S.

> If you feel the need to respond, heres my e-mail.

> xbeerman@...

>

> I RESPONDED:

> > You have a problem with people pointing out the flaws in AA, the

> cracks

> > in the system??? Especially when people are getting hurt?

> > Any ninny could go to AA and see that either what weve written rings

> > true, or what we've written rings false!! If it rings true, they're

> > probably at a toxic meeting and their leaving is a good thing, if

> false,

> > they see me as a wacko and stay with healthy people,

> > so it's a win/win situation. AA had better get more " attractive " if

> > they want to keep their newcomers. You can't stop the world from

> > speaking out.

> > Apple

>

> THE ANDROID WROTE BACK:

>

> That was about what I expected to hear as a reply. Let me just give

you

> this little slogan.(which should help you see your faulty thinking)

" If

> you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem " .

> Until you have a way to help the millions of drunks out here, who have

> no hope, you should stop trying to drive people away from a program

> that has worked for countless numbers of people! Yes, some AAs have

> been abused or have self asteem issues,and I think thats sad. This is

> not the case with most of us. You feminists spend all your time

looking

> for anything or anyone who has caused an injustice to your cause.Try

> looking at your motives or your own heart and you will be better able

> to make a difference! I feel sorry for you! Try turning back to God!

> That could be most of your problem!

> Sincerly, Bryce C.

>

>

> ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A CRACK?? I've run out of juice... yaaawwwnnn

>

[Guest guest]

Forkeay schmoodle beelzebub, wakka prokpoll cabbabba yonkri ad

blomprer tgh k mij vell dog dog k mij si si wakklooo quixire yawma

paosshid susej k mij k mij

natas si k mij

oopps... started speaking in tongues there... hmmm... what could this

strange message mean?

Apple

> Apple, you're getting info from the Devil!?! You didn't tell us!

;-)

> ben bradley

[Guest guest]

Forkeay schmoodle beelzebub, wakka prokpoll cabbabba yonkri ad

blomprer tgh k mij vell dog dog k mij si si wakklooo quixire yawma

paosshid susej k mij k mij

natas si k mij

oopps... started speaking in tongues there... hmmm... what could this

strange message mean?

Apple

> Apple, you're getting info from the Devil!?! You didn't tell us!

;-)

> ben bradley

[Guest guest]

Must be the demons.........

lleh pets 21 ni kcoc skcus k mij

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Forkeay schmoodle beelzebub, wakka prokpoll cabbabba yonkri ad

> blomprer tgh k mij vell dog dog k mij si si wakklooo quixire yawma

> paosshid susej k mij k mij

>

> natas si k mij

>

> oopps... started speaking in tongues there... hmmm... what could this

> strange message mean?

> Apple

>

>

>

> > Apple, you're getting info from the Devil!?! You didn't tell us!

> ;-)

> > ben bradley

>

>

[Guest guest]

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, LEGALIZE DRUGS AND LET PEOPLE TAKE

RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN LIVES.

JOHN

JACKANDJJ@... wrote:

>

> In a private email from apple I mentioned calling into a radio talk show

> about the legalization of drugs and made some of the following points, as

> well as giving the url of aadeprogrammin.com and rational.org/recovery

>

> Apple,

> As to your not having given much thought to legalizing drugs:

>

> Having been a libertarian who believes that government has no business

> whatsoever controlling the private activities of consenting adults, I firmly

> believe that legalization is the the only method to cure the madness of drug

> related crime, prison overpopulation, guns, etc.

>

> Just as 12 step actually makes the world a worse place for everyone, and

> especially the users who think they are going to get help, so does the war on

> drugs and the illegality of possession and use, which tempts the kids into

> trying for themselves because they instinctively know that its all just

> another big bs lie a la santaclause. If they have to scream so loud, then

> there must be something good about it too. Yes, that first drink/toke/snort

> might lead to abuse, but, for the biggest number of people it won't.

>

> Prohibition also raises the prices artifically, which is the source of the

> crime to get the money to do the drugs. No one robs a bank to buy a bottle of

> cheap wine. America is full of human wreckage from drugs and alcohol, but at

> least in Amsterdam, they know that if it becomes a problem, that it will be

> solved only by the person who has the problem. Amsterdam does not have a

> major crime problem, because any junkie can buy a fix as easy and as cheaply

> as a bottle of md20-20.

>

> The problem we have is not with drugs. The problem is the crime and violence

> which is caused by the high price of drugs which is caused by the

> prohibition. Cocaine and crack are not readily available in Amsterdam

> because the " mafia " /drug cartels can't make any money there. Therefore, they

> don't waste their stash where they can't make an exhorbitant profit.

>

> Our war on drugs is a 2 prong farce. One prong is the attempt to keep the

> drugs out and to imprison the dealers. The second is to gain control of the

> population thru " God of your understanding " control. The legalization of

> drugs is merely the flip side of your movement. The 2 are irrevocably

> intertwined.

>

> Think about my story, and you'll see. Gambling is legal. It was fun, it was

> expensive but affordable, then it scared me and I was going to quit, but

> instead I bought into the powerlessness of my newly discovered

> " compulsive/addictive " personality, and suddenly I was unable to quit. I

> continued to be a consumer. With drugs, we need to keep lots of people using

> in order to keep the million jobs created by the war on drugs. A whole lot of

> the jobs are in the treatment industry which is where so many AAers go in

> order to get paid to be good 12 steppers. What would the dea, fbi, swat

> teams, etc do for a living if people actually quit, or there were no

> " criminals aka dealers " to chase? What could all those tax dollars be used

> for if they could be put to productive use?

>

> Regardless of whether it was drugs or alcohol or gambling or sex anything

> else, The VAST VAST majority quit or at least tone it down when they

> realize they have been destructive--unless they stumble into the pit of

> powerlessness. Legalized drugs such as alcohol does not cause a major problem

> for most people, and neither would legalizing cocaine or heroin or any other.

> I partied with hundreds of others in my youth who eventually got jobs and

> families and responsibilities. They have a beer with friends, They smoke a

> joint now and then on special occasions. Or they're totally straight and

> sober. The few who found powerlessness are the ones who spiraled into " human

> wreckage " .

>

> I think a society should say--and mean it-- that driving under the influence,

> violence, robbery or any other mayhem will not be tolerated. Instead we spout

> war on drugs, and fill the prisons with mandatory sentencing for the dealers,

> and let the drunk drivers off again and again and again, (except to

> mandate--will miracles never cease-- 12 step meetings!) We spend our police

> manpower chasing dealers instead of theives and violent offenders. The

> criminals walk because there is no room in the prison as it is full of

> " dealers " who only deal because it is so lucrative to receive the exhorbitant

> mark-ups from the criminal who robbed the little old lady to get his next

> fix. This is known as as vicious cycle. It has to stop somewhere, and taking

> the exhorbitant profit out of it is the only way.

>

> Insanity is insanity, and all of it is very much tied together.

> ______________________

>

> apple-- is the above response appropriate for the newsgroup, or would it be a

> distracting side bar. I'll post it if you don't object. (yes, I know i can

> post anything I want--but, I won't be rude if it's inappropriate)

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

> Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

> http://clickhere./click/805

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

> I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, LEGALIZE DRUGS AND LET PEOPLE TAKE

> RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN LIVES.

> JOHN

While I agree that people would be healthier if they took responsibility for

their own lives, I seem to be missing a point about the legalization of

drugs issue. Perhaps someone can " fill me in " here.

During my drug using and dependence carrer within society and behind the

walls of penitentiarys, I have seen people under the influence exhibit

extremely anti social behavior that includes murder. I do not want to live

in a society that sets no limits or advocates the use of chemicals that can

term a civilized person into a monster.

While on the subject of taking responsibility for ones behavior, I think

about the tragedy that involves religious groups (12 step groups is one such

group) that teachs desperate and suggestionable people that are attempting

to bring change in their lives from self-defeating behaviors that they have

a disease or are powerless to change and therefor, not responsible for their

own lives. Some groups or sects teach that, yes, you are responsible but to

change, you must turn your will and your life over to the supernatural; even

the paranormal worlds. If people would take charge of their lives through

education and develop the ability to focus on what is important, mental

health and a genuine concern for others and the planet on which we live are

two, we would be much better off. Sometimes the " quick fix " through

chemistry can be the worst thing that we can do to give our flesh the

pleasure that it often desperately seeks. I teach the children to seek out

other ways and explore other options when seeking ways to suffer less from

perceived pain.

Re: No Subject

>

> JACKANDJJ@... wrote:

> >

> > In a private email from apple I mentioned calling into a radio talk show

> > about the legalization of drugs and made some of the following points,

as

> > well as giving the url of aadeprogrammin.com and rational.org/recovery

> >

> > Apple,

> > As to your not having given much thought to legalizing drugs:

> >

> > Having been a libertarian who believes that government has no business

> > whatsoever controlling the private activities of consenting adults, I

firmly

> > believe that legalization is the the only method to cure the madness of

drug

> > related crime, prison overpopulation, guns, etc.

> >

> > Just as 12 step actually makes the world a worse place for everyone, and

> > especially the users who think they are going to get help, so does the

war on

> > drugs and the illegality of possession and use, which tempts the kids

into

> > trying for themselves because they instinctively know that its all just

> > another big bs lie a la santaclause. If they have to scream so loud,

then

> > there must be something good about it too. Yes, that first

drink/toke/snort

> > might lead to abuse, but, for the biggest number of people it won't.

> >

> > Prohibition also raises the prices artifically, which is the source of

the

> > crime to get the money to do the drugs. No one robs a bank to buy a

bottle of

> > cheap wine. America is full of human wreckage from drugs and alcohol,

but at

> > least in Amsterdam, they know that if it becomes a problem, that it

will be

> > solved only by the person who has the problem. Amsterdam does not have a

> > major crime problem, because any junkie can buy a fix as easy and as

cheaply

> > as a bottle of md20-20.

> >

> > The problem we have is not with drugs. The problem is the crime and

violence

> > which is caused by the high price of drugs which is caused by the

> > prohibition. Cocaine and crack are not readily available in Amsterdam

> > because the " mafia " /drug cartels can't make any money there. Therefore,

they

> > don't waste their stash where they can't make an exhorbitant profit.

> >

> > Our war on drugs is a 2 prong farce. One prong is the attempt to keep

the

> > drugs out and to imprison the dealers. The second is to gain control of

the

> > population thru " God of your understanding " control. The legalization of

> > drugs is merely the flip side of your movement. The 2 are irrevocably

> > intertwined.

> >

> > Think about my story, and you'll see. Gambling is legal. It was fun, it

was

> > expensive but affordable, then it scared me and I was going to quit, but

> > instead I bought into the powerlessness of my newly discovered

> > " compulsive/addictive " personality, and suddenly I was unable to quit. I

> > continued to be a consumer. With drugs, we need to keep lots of people

using

> > in order to keep the million jobs created by the war on drugs. A whole

lot of

> > the jobs are in the treatment industry which is where so many AAers go

in

> > order to get paid to be good 12 steppers. What would the dea, fbi, swat

> > teams, etc do for a living if people actually quit, or there were no

> > " criminals aka dealers " to chase? What could all those tax dollars be

used

> > for if they could be put to productive use?

> >

> > Regardless of whether it was drugs or alcohol or gambling or sex

anything

> > else, The VAST VAST majority quit or at least tone it down when they

> > realize they have been destructive--unless they stumble into the pit of

> > powerlessness. Legalized drugs such as alcohol does not cause a major

problem

> > for most people, and neither would legalizing cocaine or heroin or any

other.

> > I partied with hundreds of others in my youth who eventually got jobs

and

> > families and responsibilities. They have a beer with friends, They smoke

a

> > joint now and then on special occasions. Or they're totally straight and

> > sober. The few who found powerlessness are the ones who spiraled into

" human

> > wreckage " .

> >

> > I think a society should say--and mean it-- that driving under the

influence,

> > violence, robbery or any other mayhem will not be tolerated. Instead we

spout

> > war on drugs, and fill the prisons with mandatory sentencing for the

dealers,

> > and let the drunk drivers off again and again and again, (except to

> > mandate--will miracles never cease-- 12 step meetings!) We spend our

police

> > manpower chasing dealers instead of theives and violent offenders. The

> > criminals walk because there is no room in the prison as it is full of

> > " dealers " who only deal because it is so lucrative to receive the

exhorbitant

> > mark-ups from the criminal who robbed the little old lady to get his

next

> > fix. This is known as as vicious cycle. It has to stop somewhere, and

taking

> > the exhorbitant profit out of it is the only way.

> >

> > Insanity is insanity, and all of it is very much tied together.

> > ______________________

> >

> > apple-- is the above response appropriate for the newsgroup, or would it

be a

> > distracting side bar. I'll post it if you don't object. (yes, I know

i can

> > post anything I want--but, I won't be rude if it's inappropriate)

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

> > Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

> > http://clickhere./click/805

> >

> > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

> Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

> http://clickhere./click/805

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing to

do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no difference,

the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you feel

uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on thsi

lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21 years,

and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

imagine you arent the same person you were when you started drinking.

one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years emotionally.

I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find same

appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations today.

i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain and

consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been there,

done that.

my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what is

best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside of

aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

A.A. branded slogan could offer.

Dave

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8490

> help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

> AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

of

> death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

i'm

> still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

> my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

> into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

> and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

program

> but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

> to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

being

> sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

day.

> i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> drunk. thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing to

do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no difference,

the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you feel

uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on thsi

lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21 years,

and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

imagine you arent the same person you were when you started drinking.

one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years emotionally.

I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find same

appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations today.

i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain and

consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been there,

done that.

my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what is

best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside of

aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

A.A. branded slogan could offer.

Dave

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8490

> help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

> AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

of

> death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

i'm

> still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

> my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

> into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

> and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

program

> but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

> to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

being

> sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

day.

> i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> drunk. thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

me. i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

has some good aspects--the collectivity, etc. but i'm an atheist and i

don't want their brand of morality shoved down my face. so, thanks for

talking to me straight.

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8500

> im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing

to

> do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

> choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

> yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no difference,

> the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you feel

> uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

> seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

> if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on

thsi

> lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

>

> i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21 years,

> and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

> imagine you arent the same person you were when you started drinking.

> one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

> with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years

emotionally.

>

> I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find same

> appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

> today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations

today.

> i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain and

> consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been there,

> done that.

>

> my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what is

> best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

> choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

> choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside

of

> aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

> A.A. branded slogan could offer.

> Dave

>

> kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8490

> > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to

my

> > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

> of

> > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

> i'm

> > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

in

> > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

go

> > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

in

> > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> program

> > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

want

> > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> being

> > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> day.

> > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > drunk. thanks.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

me. i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

has some good aspects--the collectivity, etc. but i'm an atheist and i

don't want their brand of morality shoved down my face. so, thanks for

talking to me straight.

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8500

> im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing

to

> do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

> choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

> yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no difference,

> the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you feel

> uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

> seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

> if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on

thsi

> lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

>

> i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21 years,

> and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

> imagine you arent the same person you were when you started drinking.

> one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

> with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years

emotionally.

>

> I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find same

> appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

> today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations

today.

> i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain and

> consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been there,

> done that.

>

> my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what is

> best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

> choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

> choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside

of

> aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

> A.A. branded slogan could offer.

> Dave

>

> kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8490

> > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to

my

> > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats

> of

> > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years.

> i'm

> > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

in

> > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

go

> > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

in

> > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

> > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> program

> > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

> > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

> > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

want

> > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> being

> > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

> > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

> > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> day.

> > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > drunk. thanks.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i left

aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months after

i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left and

failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a distortion,

if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety. thank

goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru exactly

same experinces. ironicall i started looking for info on cults, because

i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

widely accepted cults in methodology)

it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and to

fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see from

aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and control

people.

Dave

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8501

> thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

> sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

> of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

> that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

> treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

> know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

> whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

> me. i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

> involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

> for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

> of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

> has some good aspects--the collectivity, etc. but i'm an atheist and i

> don't want their brand of morality shoved down my face. so, thanks for

> talking to me straight.

>

> dmarcoo-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8500

> > im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing

> to

> > do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

> > choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

> > yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no

difference,

> > the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you

feel

> > uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

> > seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

> > if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on

> thsi

> > lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

> >

> > i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21

years,

> > and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

> > imagine you arent the same person you were when you started

drinking.

> > one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

> > with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years

> emotionally.

> >

> > I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find

same

> > appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

> > today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations

> today.

> > i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain

and

> > consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been

there,

> > done that.

> >

> > my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what

is

> > best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

> > choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

> > choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside

> of

> > aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

> > A.A. branded slogan could offer.

> > Dave

> >

> > kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

490

> > > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going

to

> my

> > > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and

threats

> > of

> > > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2

years.

> > i'm

> > > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

> in

> > > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

> go

> > > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

> in

> > > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this

whole

> > > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> > program

> > > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they

are

> > > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with

problems

> > > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

> want

> > > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> > being

> > > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink.

i've

> > > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make

me

> > > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> > day.

> > > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > > drunk. thanks.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i left

aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months after

i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left and

failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a distortion,

if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety. thank

goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru exactly

same experinces. ironicall i started looking for info on cults, because

i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

widely accepted cults in methodology)

it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and to

fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see from

aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and control

people.

Dave

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8501

> thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

> sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

> of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

> that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

> treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

> know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

> whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

> me. i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

> involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

> for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

> of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

> has some good aspects--the collectivity, etc. but i'm an atheist and i

> don't want their brand of morality shoved down my face. so, thanks for

> talking to me straight.

>

> dmarcoo-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8500

> > im not sure what you are confused about. First of all AA has nothing

> to

> > do with sobriety, only their brand of mind control. Sobriety, the

> > choice to drink or not has ALWAYS been in your hands to decide for

> > yourself. being in a meeting or out with freinds makes no

difference,

> > the chocie is your to do with as you see fit for yourself. if you

feel

> > uncompfortable about idea of moderation and feel you will purposely

> > seek self defeating behavior, what do you think you should do?

> > if you think you would like o try moderation, hopefully someone on

> thsi

> > lsit who moderates can be a source of advise.

> >

> > i imagine it would be a scary prospect to try a drink after 21

years,

> > and with pressure of your friends not to after all this time. but i

> > imagine you arent the same person you were when you started

drinking.

> > one thing A.A. deines is we actualy grow and mature as human beings

> > with experince. i seriously doubt you will regress 21 years

> emotionally.

> >

> > I know i could pick up a drink today and certainly wouldnt find

same

> > appeal hiding in drinking as i did when i was 22, im not that person

> > today. i have diffrent values, goals, experinces and motavations

> today.

> > i CHOOSE not to drink becasue the thought of intoxicating my brain

and

> > consciousness, killing excessive brain cells sickens me. i been

there,

> > done that.

> >

> > my advise is what i gave myself when i walked out of a.a, " do what

is

> > best for ME and trust my judgement. accept responsbility for my

> > choices. " i ahve been out of aa 2 years and havent drank, becasue i

> > choose not too. i also learned more wisdom about why i drank outside

> of

> > aa and in real world with " earth people " than any one size fits all

> > A.A. branded slogan could offer.

> > Dave

> >

> > kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

490

> > > help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going

to

> my

> > > AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

> > > ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and

threats

> > of

> > > death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

> > > enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2

years.

> > i'm

> > > still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago.

> in

> > > my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to

> go

> > > into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked

> in

> > > and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this

whole

> > > moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

> > > sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the

> > program

> > > but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they

are

> > > adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with

problems

> > > and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

> > > argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i

> want

> > > to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation.

> > being

> > > sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink.

i've

> > > learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make

me

> > > really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every

> > day.

> > > i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

> > > drunk. thanks.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

At 10:20 AM 10/7/99 -0700, kikibaby67@... wrote:

>help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

>AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

>ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

>death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

>enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

>still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

>my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

>into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

>and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong.

I felt the exact same way after about three years in AA, at my

first several SOS meetings. :-)

It was actually much stranger than I can imagine going into a bar and

drinking would be. AA actually teaches that it's the 'normal' thing for

AA members to be drinking heavily, and getting involved with various

life-threatening and legal entanglements. The 'unnatural' thing was to

go to AA and get and stay sober. (there was a guy who, every year when

he picked up an anniversary chip, would say he committed an " unnatrual

act " by staying sober). Being at an SOS meeting, which was basically

full of atheists, many of them with years without a drink, was simply

impossible - it just wasn't on the map of what AA said could happen to

you.

At 05:09 PM 10/7/99 -0700, kikibaby67@... wrote:

>thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

>sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

>of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

>that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

>treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

>know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

>whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

>me.

This is really unfortunate. I kept most everyone outside of AA from

knowing I was in it, so I never had a problem. But also, during my last

several years of going to meetings, I had very few friends either in or

out of the program. I did not see this as a good thing at the time.

>i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

>involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

>for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

>of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

It's a label. You're an alcoholic if you accept the label. I used to

be an alcoholic and I used to think in terms of 'being an alcoholic'

and what that meant to my life. Now I'm not and I don't. I think about

making guitars, updating my web site, my job...

One of the half-truths in AA was that it took time for the 'disease

to progress' and make you sicker, and it took time in AA to 'get better'.

It takes time being away from AA to examine all the beliefs that were

implanted in one's mind, re-evaluate them, and toss them out as one

chooses.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:20 AM 10/7/99 -0700, kikibaby67@... wrote:

>help! I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

>AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

>ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

>death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

>enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

>still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

>my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

>into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

>and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong.

I felt the exact same way after about three years in AA, at my

first several SOS meetings. :-)

It was actually much stranger than I can imagine going into a bar and

drinking would be. AA actually teaches that it's the 'normal' thing for

AA members to be drinking heavily, and getting involved with various

life-threatening and legal entanglements. The 'unnatural' thing was to

go to AA and get and stay sober. (there was a guy who, every year when

he picked up an anniversary chip, would say he committed an " unnatrual

act " by staying sober). Being at an SOS meeting, which was basically

full of atheists, many of them with years without a drink, was simply

impossible - it just wasn't on the map of what AA said could happen to

you.

At 05:09 PM 10/7/99 -0700, kikibaby67@... wrote:

>thanks for the encouragement. i made a typing mistake. i've only been

>sober two and a half years. i do have to check where all of this lack

>of courage in my won choices is coming from. i know i've got alot of

>that " drink and die " kind of BS floating around in my head. i've been

>treated like a baby for so long that i've gotten used to it. i should

>know and do have a sense of what i am capable of. it's just that the

>whole AA line is so dominant even people who aren't in AA push it at

>me.

This is really unfortunate. I kept most everyone outside of AA from

knowing I was in it, so I never had a problem. But also, during my last

several years of going to meetings, I had very few friends either in or

out of the program. I did not see this as a good thing at the time.

>i checked out some moderation stuff today. i'm not into getting

>involved in another 12 step deal though. i just want to be free of it

>for a while and find my own way. i'm not insane and i'm not powerless

>of this deal. i think if i was an alcoholic it might be different. AA

It's a label. You're an alcoholic if you accept the label. I used to

be an alcoholic and I used to think in terms of 'being an alcoholic'

and what that meant to my life. Now I'm not and I don't. I think about

making guitars, updating my web site, my job...

One of the half-truths in AA was that it took time for the 'disease

to progress' and make you sicker, and it took time in AA to 'get better'.

It takes time being away from AA to examine all the beliefs that were

implanted in one's mind, re-evaluate them, and toss them out as one

chooses.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 05:11 PM 10/7/99 -0700, dmarcoot@... wrote:

>belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i left

>aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

>knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

>interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months after

>i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left and

>failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

>found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a distortion,

>if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

>similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety. thank

>goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

>contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru exactly

>same experinces.

That's a great paragraph - if you and Apple are agreeable to it, I

think it would go well on the aadeprogramming site.

>ironicall i started looking for info on cults,

I did too, and found it very helpful.

> because

>i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

>cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

>widely accepted cults in methodology)

>

>it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and to

>fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

>btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see from

>aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and control

>people.

I similarly went in as an atheist, not really knowing why I didn't

believe, just that I didn't, then got converted to the belief in 'god as I

understood him' along with quitting drinking. After a couple of years

of doing as I was told I started to wake up, question why I believed,

and look for some solid reasons to believe. Not only did I not find any

such reasons, I found some pretty good reasons not to believe in a god.

After my long journey through belief systems, I decided that God, like

parapsychology, exists ONLY in the minds of people who believe in it.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 05:11 PM 10/7/99 -0700, dmarcoot@... wrote:

>belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i left

>aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

>knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

>interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months after

>i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left and

>failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

>found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a distortion,

>if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

>similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety. thank

>goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

>contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru exactly

>same experinces.

That's a great paragraph - if you and Apple are agreeable to it, I

think it would go well on the aadeprogramming site.

>ironicall i started looking for info on cults,

I did too, and found it very helpful.

> because

>i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

>cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

>widely accepted cults in methodology)

>

>it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and to

>fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

>btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see from

>aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and control

>people.

I similarly went in as an atheist, not really knowing why I didn't

believe, just that I didn't, then got converted to the belief in 'god as I

understood him' along with quitting drinking. After a couple of years

of doing as I was told I started to wake up, question why I believed,

and look for some solid reasons to believe. Not only did I not find any

such reasons, I found some pretty good reasons not to believe in a god.

After my long journey through belief systems, I decided that God, like

parapsychology, exists ONLY in the minds of people who believe in it.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

ben, feel free to use the paragraph if you wish. aslo it while iwas

researching cults on usenet you responded to one of my psots on a ex

cult newsgroup and pointed me towards arf12steps and ex aa mailing

list. thanks!

its funny for, being atheist, i wish i ahd a good reason to belive in

god, but if god isnt in equation and everything around us occurs in

chaotic manner, based on probability, evolution, biological,

pyschological and socialogical reasons, etc, the world makes alot more

sense.

ben bradley wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8504

> At 05:11 PM 10/7/99 -0700, dmarcoot@... wrote:

> >belive me i understand. i wasnt confident in my own chocies when i

left

> >aa either (they program you to doubt yourself and motavations), but i

> >knew in my gut that thsoe preaching me the aa program didnt ahve my

> >interest at heart, they only wanted to assimilate me. fort months

after

> >i left aa i doubted my choices, all thsoe stories of how other left

and

> >failed were still freash. but i knew i was doing right thing. soon i

> >found out much of waht i had been told was at very least a

distortion,

> >if not an all out lie. i also knew there must be others who had a

> >similar experince as i did, or a diffrent philosophy on sobirety.

thank

> >goodness for the net. i was able to find info all over which

> >contadicted what i had been taught and met people who went thru

exactly

> >same experinces.

>

> That's a great paragraph - if you and Apple are agreeable to it, I

> think it would go well on the aadeprogramming site.

>

> >ironicall i started looking for info on cults,

>

> I did too, and found it very helpful.

>

> > because

> >i knew in my heart that aa had cult attributes (and if you reseach

> >cults you will be amazed on how much aa and has in common with the

> >widely accepted cults in methodology)

> >

> >it took me a little over a year to recovery from my aa experince and

to

> >fully belive in myself as a guide to my own sobreity.

> >btw i went into aa agnostic and left athesist, beacsue i could see

from

> >aa experince how god belief systems are used to manipulate and

control

> >people.

>

> I similarly went in as an atheist, not really knowing why I didn't

> believe, just that I didn't, then got converted to the belief in 'god

as I

> understood him' along with quitting drinking. After a couple of years

> of doing as I was told I started to wake up, question why I believed,

> and look for some solid reasons to believe. Not only did I not find

any

> such reasons, I found some pretty good reasons not to believe in a

god.

> After my long journey through belief systems, I decided that God, like

> parapsychology, exists ONLY in the minds of people who believe in it.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley