RE: POLITICS - New Warning From Center for Disease Control

[Guest guest]

>

> So no, I don't think that taxation or state-owned military are dependent on

> socialism and those were probably bad examples.

>

> However, I do think that previous to the 20th century the idea of what was

> legitimate use of taxes was quite different than what we have now, and I do

> think that the idea of the welfare state resulted from an interaction between

> socialism and classical capitalism.

>

Perhaps, rather than looking at it as socialism influencing people to adopt

these policies, you can look at them as policies that have been won (and are now

rapidly being lost) by the real struggles of people. Bush acquiesces to

some of this not because he is in any way influenced by Socialism (the very idea

is totally ludicrous) but because there is a status quo now which he cannot

simple dismantle on command. He is trying his best though, just as I suspect

that you would, your little signature quote about compassion notwithstanding.

[Guest guest]

>Go Theo, Go Theo...

>

>Chris

>

You like that? Here, read some more.

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/patriotism.htm

" Patriotism " is a word that has been hyper-conspicuous these days. The

Congress of the United States has even chosen that word as a label for

its anti-terrorism bill: " The USA PATRIOT Act. "

So just what does it mean to be a " patriot. " ? Who are today's

" patriots " ? What historical figures exemplify this civic virtue?

Judging from the casual use of the word these days, it would seem that

most everyone has a clear intuitive sense of the meaning of

" patriotism. " Even to inquire as to its meaning might appear to many of

our fellow citizens to be, well, / " unpatriotic. " /

Even so, I will explore these questions, and damn the consequences --

including the risk of being called a " traitor " by the likes of Ann

Coulter and the Freepers.

And so, to begin, we ask: who was and is a " patriot " ? Washington,

Jefferson, Paine, those who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred

honor by signing the Declaration of Independence - all these come to

mind. But what about Colonel Klaus von Stauffenberg, whose failed

attempt on Adolf Hitler's life cost the Colonel his life? Or Andrei

Sakharov in the Soviet Union. More recently, how would we characterize

Dean during the Watergate affair? Or Ellsberg?

The dominant meaning of " patriotism " as it is used today in the popular

media seems to be " support of our nation's leadership during this time

of peril. " By implication, as Ashcroft seemed to suggest to the

Senate Judiciary Committee, criticism of our leaders amounts to virtual

treason.

By this account, Washington, Jefferson, von Stauffenberg, Sakharov,

Ellsberg and Dean, were traitors, for they all rebelled against

" constituted national leadership, " i.e., King (House of Hanover,

not House of Bush), Adolf Hitler (legally elected Chancellor of Germany

in 1933), the Brezhnev regime, and Nixon, respectively.

-------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 11:05 AM -0800 2/13/05, Christie wrote:

> >> You might want to peel it first but just washing it off will retain more

>nutrients. Remember to return it. <<

>

>OK, now you're just trying to scare me.

>

>Christie

I can never remember who to " root " for in these political debates! ;-)

Hope no one will turnip their nose at this attempt at levity...

Tom

--

" Good company and good discourse are the very sinews of virtue. "

~ Isaak Walton, The Compleat Angler, 1653

-------------------------------------------------------------------

H. Harbold P.O. Box 1537

tharbold@... Westminster, MD 21158

tom_in_md@... http://www.geocities.com/Tom_in_MD

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

>I can never remember who to " root " for in these political debates! ;-)

>

>Hope no one will turnip their nose at this attempt at levity...

>

>Tom

>

Lettuce turnip and pea.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> Had their never

> been a socialist

> movement, never been a socialist critique of capitalism on

> moral, ethical, and

> economic grounds, then there never would have been a real threat to

> capitalism, and an effort to save capitalism by synthesizing

> it with elements of the

> movements that posed the greatest threats to it.

>

Huh. Now that was interesting. Nicely said.

Ron

[Guest guest]

At 3:15 PM -0600 2/13/05, Deanna wrote:

> >I can never remember who to " root " for in these political debates! ;-)

>>

>>Hope no one will turnip their nose at this attempt at levity...

>>

>>Tom

>>

>Lettuce turnip and pea.

>

>Deanna

Ewwwwwww! On the carrot...??? That's disguzzzting. ;-)

Lettuce rather reach peas with this issue, endive into something more

uplifting.

Hoping we can leaf well enough alone,

Tom

" Visualize whirled peas! "

[Guest guest]

>> Hope no one will turnip their nose at this attempt at levity... <<

Two puns in one post. , isn't that against list rules? Or do they just

have to put a PUN tag on the post?

Christie

[Guest guest]

>

>Two puns in one post. , isn't that against list rules? Or do they just

>have to put a PUN tag on the post?

>

Beets me.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Here we are, arguing about which of the Duopoly candidates of 2004 is

an international socialist and which is a National Socialist. Let's cut

to the chase:

Did either Bush or Kerry defend your right to drink raw milk?

Did either defend your right to manage pain with cannabis?

Has either offered to clean out/eliminate the USDA, FDA, etc.?

Ahhh, I see.

Does your body belong to Bush or Kerry? If not, what is the proper

penalty for them behaving as if it does?

If you support either because they have promised democracy in

Iraq/national health care/whatever (pick one), are you aware that the

power to do that includes the power to do things you do NOT want?

Y'all are still in high school; there are NO differences in candidates

for Homecoming King.

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

>

> >but entirely another to start a new thread with an off-topic post

> >consisting of little more than a litany of insulting

> >overgeneralizations wrapped in a thin veneer of humor.

>

> Inasmuch as that message cracked up my ultra-conservative

> girlfriend, I think your humorless contingent is rather

> small, .

The beginning and the end, especially the part about originating in a Texas

Bush, were rather clever, but the assertion that those who voted to reelect

Bush (a group of which I am most assuredly not a member) share the following

characteristics is false, gratuitously mean-spirited, and utterly devoid of

humor.

-anti-social personality disorder traits; delusions of grandeur with

a distinct messianic flavor

-chronic mangling of the English language

-extreme cognitive dissonance

-inability to incorporate new information

-pronounced xenophobia

-inability to accept responsibility for actions

-exceptional cowardice masked by acts of misplaced bravado

-uncontrolled facial smirking

-ignorance of geography and history

-tendencies toward creating evangelical theocracies

-a strong propensity for categorical, all-or nothing behavior

....You have an ultra-conservative girlfriend? The world is indeed full of

wonders. Questions of compatibility aside, I'm surprised you even managed to

find one in Manhattan. By the way, is her name really Binky?

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ChrisMasterjohn@... [mailto:ChrisMasterjohn@...]

>

> Au contraire, I actually have woman-like cognitive

> organization, as evidenced by my History degree.

>

> Plus I like Meg movies. So I'm really a woman deep down inside.

I'd offer to buy you dinner the next time I'm on the East Coast, but...I'm

not sure I want to go out with a woman who likes Meg movies.

[Guest guest]

>

>I think anyone and everyone on this list has the right not to engage in

>political discussions. Just say no, or hit delete. This group thrives

>on the occasional romping through the political woods, frolicking among

>the boobs and butts, and tiptoeing through religious perspectives. It

>kind of rounds out the talk of food and exercise. Think of it as our

>dessert.

>

>Deanna

Or do what Deanna and I did ... go to nt_politics and discuss as much as you

like. Only one rule, which is some modicum of respect for each other.

-- Heidi (Who LOVED the original joke ... jokes are good!)

[Guest guest]

>> there are NO differences in candidates

for Homecoming King. <<

I believed that once. Then Reagan stood by with an idiotic smile on

his face while AIDS burned like a wildfire across America and all my friends

were dying, and he never even said the word. And that's when I knew, the

parties may be a lot alike, but sometimes the difference costs people their

lives.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>> I'd offer to buy you dinner the next time I'm on the East Coast,

but...I'm

not sure I want to go out with a woman who likes Meg movies. <<

ESPECIALLY not out to dinner.... I mean, did you see Sleepless in Seattle?

Christie

[Guest guest]

-

>The beginning and the end, especially the part about originating in a Texas

>Bush, were rather clever, but the assertion that those who voted to reelect

>Bush (a group of which I am most assuredly not a member) share the following

>characteristics is false, gratuitously mean-spirited, and utterly devoid of

>humor.

Actually, that's the part Binky found the funniest, the reason being less

the target than its successful spoofing of the DSM. BTW, how would you

have reacted if the joke had been at Clinton's expense after his reelection?

>...You have an ultra-conservative girlfriend? The world is indeed full of

>wonders. Questions of compatibility aside, I'm surprised you even managed to

>find one in Manhattan. By the way, is her name really Binky?

In reverse order, yes, her name really is Binky, and that remark is typical

of hick fundies who regard New York as the Great Satan and simply can't

believe it when they come here and find that New Yorkers are nice. There

are plenty of conservatives in New York, just like there are plenty of

liberals in Texas. Did you forget about Wall Street? And the upper east

side, for that matter?

-

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

>

> >The beginning and the end, especially the part about

> originating in a

> >Texas Bush, were rather clever, but the assertion that those

> who voted

> >to reelect Bush (a group of which I am most assuredly not a member)

> >share the following characteristics is false, gratuitously

> >mean-spirited, and utterly devoid of humor.

>

> Actually, that's the part Binky found the funniest, the

> reason being less the target than its successful spoofing of

> the DSM.

DSM?

> BTW, how would you have reacted if the joke had

> been at Clinton's expense after his reelection?

You mean at Clinton's expense, or at the expense of people who voted for

him? Because as I read it, that's what this was. Anyway, I probably wouldn't

have reacted at all, because someone on the left would have jumped in to say

the same thing. But if someone had posted a litany of unsubstantiated,

insulting, and not-terribly-clever generalizations about people who voted

for Clinton, if no one else had objected, and if I had had then the maturity

which I have now (I didn't), I'd like to think I would have said something

similar.

> >...You have an ultra-conservative girlfriend? The world is

> indeed full

> >of wonders. Questions of compatibility aside, I'm surprised you even

> >managed to find one in Manhattan. By the way, is her name

> really Binky?

>

> In reverse order, yes, her name really is Binky, and that

> remark is typical of hick fundies who regard New York as the

> Great Satan and simply can't believe it when they come here

> and find that New Yorkers are nice.

I'm a hick, but I'm not a religious fundamentalist, and I don't think New

York is the Great Satan. I like New York as only an objectivist can. My

favorite person in the whole world (the one who was with me when we met a

few years ago) used to live in New York. If it weren't for the high cost of

living and the remote but not insignificant threat of a terrorist attack,

I'd probably live in New York myself. That wasn't intended either as serious

social commentary or as a personal or regional attack, and I apologize if it

came off the wrong way.

Still, Kerry did outpoll Bush by nearly 5-to-1 in Manhattan, so the

stereotype is fairly accurate in that respect.

http://tinyurl.com/6me7s

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/PresidentialByCounty

..aspx?oi=P & rti=G & tf=l & sp=NY

[Guest guest]

-

>DSM?

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. They're up to

the fourth edition, hence DSM-4 (or DSM-IV).

>You mean at Clinton's expense, or at the expense of people who voted for

>him?

OK, fair point, but yes.

>Anyway, I probably wouldn't

>have reacted at all, because someone on the left would have jumped in to say

>the same thing.

Unlikely, though admittedly not really testable. There are lefty types

who'd object strenuously to that sort of joke, but to my knowledge they're

not represented in this group.

>I'm a hick, but I'm not a religious fundamentalist, and I don't think New

>York is the Great Satan. I like New York as only an objectivist can.

Is that sort of like so-called " tough love " , or " love the sinner, hate the

sin " ?

OK, OK, cheap shot.

> My

>favorite person in the whole world (the one who was with me when we met a

>few years ago) used to live in New York.

Wasn't she... oh well, none of my business.

>If it weren't for the high cost of

>living and the remote but not insignificant threat of a terrorist attack,

>I'd probably live in New York myself. That wasn't intended either as serious

>social commentary or as a personal or regional attack, and I apologize if it

>came off the wrong way.

It sounded like a crack, but I have thick skin, so no harm done. (I laugh

at bad-liberal jokes when they're funny, and like Binky, I thought the

non-party-specific parts of that joke (derived from the DSM) were funnier

than the Bush punchline.)

>Still, Kerry did outpoll Bush by nearly 5-to-1 in Manhattan, so the

>stereotype is fairly accurate in that respect.

Sure, NYC is pretty liberal, but the idea that there are no conservatives

here is much like the idea that there are no liberals in, say, Bush's home

turf -- factually absurd. And Kerry's performance here was at least in

part due to legitimate anti-Bush sentiment. For all that they're peas in a

pod in many important ways, there are also important substantive

differences between them.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/13/05 8:14:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bberg@... writes:

> I'd offer to buy you dinner the next time I'm on the East Coast, but...I'm

> not sure I want to go out with a woman who likes Meg movies.

___

I'm sure we could work through it. But... maybe you could take Christie out

for dinner instead? Although I'm not sure she'd want to go out with a man

who... well, a man.

:-P

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:48:04 -0500

" ~~ " <shelleyslife@...> wrote:

>

> And some people were afraid that the socialist, Kerry, was going to be in

the Whitehouse. I, however, was not one of them, as I had more faith in freedom

loving Americans then that.

>

> Now, can we not be political anymore? Some people who join these groups do

not appreciate potentially inflammatory and controversial subject matter...would

like to stay on topic or related, at least.

>

> I think that is the most thoughtful thing to do myself.

>

Probably not going to happen, as the politics tag in the subject line

was created precisely for off topic discussions that veer into the realm

of politics, religion, etc. Having said that, my understanding of the

politics tag was that it should be applied to discussions that *started*

out related to this group, but then expanded to some other area. I fail

to see how the original post had anything to do with Native Nutrition,

so even though it was rightly labeled, it was probably still not right

to be posted to this group.

At least that is how I understand the off-topic nomenclature for this

list.

" I feel sorry for all those health food

people. Someday, they will be lying in a hospital bed,

dying of nothing. "

Redd Foxx

=================================================

" This is what the king who will reign over you will do:

He will take... He will take... He will take... He will take...

... he will take... He will take... "

(I 8:11-17)

=================================================

[Guest guest]

-

>I fail

>to see how the original post had anything to do with Native Nutrition,

>so even though it was rightly labeled, it was probably still not right

>to be posted to this group.

People periodically post off-topic humor to this list. That's perfectly

OK. This particular off-topic joke happened to be political in nature, and

thus required the POLITICS tag. Though I certainly don't want this list to

become a humor clearinghouse, I'm not about to start vetting humor by

subject matter or political orientation. If it meets basic community

standards of decency (admittedly a nebulous standard) it's OK.

-

[Guest guest]

At 04:03 PM 2/14/05 -0500, you wrote:

>-

>

>>I fail

>>to see how the original post had anything to do with Native Nutrition,

>>so even though it was rightly labeled, it was probably still not right

>>to be posted to this group.

>

>People periodically post off-topic humor to this list. That's perfectly

>OK. This particular off-topic joke happened to be political in nature, and

>thus required the POLITICS tag. Though I certainly don't want this list to

>become a humor clearinghouse, I'm not about to start vetting humor by

>subject matter or political orientation. If it meets basic community

>standards of decency (admittedly a nebulous standard) it's OK.

>

>-

>

Great. I'll post another butt joke as soon as I come up with one.

At least the puns have stopped. I think you should outlaw those.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear

[Guest guest]

>> At least the puns have stopped. I think you should outlaw those.

<<

Yes, , isn't it time you used your powers for good instead of evil?

Christie

[Guest guest]

> -

>

>>I fail

>>to see how the original post had anything to do with Native Nutrition,

>>so even though it was rightly labeled, it was probably still not right

>>to be posted to this group.

>

> People periodically post off-topic humor to this list. That's perfectly

> OK. This particular off-topic joke happened to be political in nature,

> and

> thus required the POLITICS tag. Though I certainly don't want this list

> to

> become a humor clearinghouse, I'm not about to start vetting humor by

> subject matter or political orientation. If it meets basic community

> standards of decency (admittedly a nebulous standard) it's OK.

>

>

> -

Post was health related. Gluten and vegetables came into the conversation.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

> Great. I'll post another butt joke as soon as I come up with one.

>

> At least the puns have stopped. I think you should outlaw those.

>

> MFJ

How about buns and puns?

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

At 06:21 PM 2/14/05 -0500, you wrote:

>

>> Great. I'll post another butt joke as soon as I come up with one.

>>

>> At least the puns have stopped. I think you should outlaw those.

>>

> > MFJ

>

>How about buns and puns?

>

>Wanita

No, that's too much like bad rhymes. The last thing we need on this

list is topical limericks.

MFJ

Once, poets were magicians. Poets were strong, stronger than warriors or

kings - stronger than old hapless gods. And they will be strong once

again. ~Greg Bear